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Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and today with me is Doctor Daniel Kessler, psychologist and partner. Hey.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good. Hey how you? Doing, yeah. Yeah, it’s Sunday, which means podcast day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So here, here we are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just cause the fans at home are paying attention. We got a message back in our mail bag. Thank you so much. One of our many listeners sent us a message and said, hey, your lamp looks like it's falling off the desk. It wasn't, it was. But it was a little off. So we moved it over and it reminded me. That I need to. Turn my lamps on. So looking forward, Michael, you have an interesting conundrum for Doctor MacBride.

Host: Michael:

And we have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Try to puzzle through. Don't you?

Host: Michael:

Yeah, but I. Also want to point out like that's the kind of fan service that we offer if you point, if you point something out, we'll fix it. So exactly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If you reach out to us, we will respond because we care about what our listeners have to say.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome both of you for any of the newbies out there. If you don't know what am I the asshole is. In short, someone posts the scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here, and that's what we're going to help to determine when there are identifiable information in the post. We've changed those to make them a little bit more anonymous and discrete. And if you're new. Stick around through the end to make sure that you can catch the bonus conversation which. Is I know it could be wide-ranging. It could be about something in the office. It could be about a favorite book or last time we did. We did recipes recently. I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What? Michael, it's always an insight into the personal world that people don't always get with. They start with a therapist. And while we're not your therapist, those to our listeners, but we, you know, people sometimes have curiosities about the lives of therapists outside of therapy office.

Host: Michael:

That's true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now there's our glimpse your inside glimpse.

Host: Michael:

Well, and just so everybody knows, Dan nor Gayle, know what I'm going to ask them about. It's always a bit of a mystery. And I love seeing their reactions cold anyway, so today's topic is the question is short and sweet, which is, am I vassal for getting my disappointed son a Slurpee? And then there's more, obviously.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I you know what often going to jump in with yes. No. You know, I'm. I'm going to hear more. Look. Yeah, I'm not going to judge this particular book by its cover. Cause I can see circumstances where it's totally fine. Another circumstance where it's like, no, don't reward him for this.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. OK. So this one. Says my 8 year old son had a class trip yesterday. He was excited in the days leading up to the trip, mainly because of the specific attraction he was hoping to see. Unfortunately, that attraction is closed for renovations for the next couple of months, so we didn't get to see it, though there were other things he liked and enjoyed. He was still super disappointed when he got home. I asked him how the trip was and he told me how sad he was that he didn't get to see what he was looking forward to. Like I felt sorry for him. That sucks, I said. And it was a nice day and we lived three blocks from 7:11, so I offered to take him for a Slurpee, and he agreed. Well, it didn't make up for everything. It made his day a little better, and I was happy. I could do that and spend the time with him with that simple gesture. My husband things I was wrong because kids need to learn how to manage disappointment. And I didn't give him that chance. I would agree if, say, I had take him to target and bought him $100 worth of toys or say called the place and reading them out for being disappointing and closed. But this was just a Slurpee. It costs a little over a buck. It's close to home. We walked there. I didn't see any reason why this would have been proportional to the disappointment. It was just a small thing to uplift his day. My husband argues that in the real world, you just have to suck it up with disappointment. And I said that's not entirely true, because adults in the real world absolutely treat themselves to minor things when they have. Rough day? It wouldn't be an excuse to rock the credit card, but it's not crazy or unusual to get someone to soapy or a chocolate bar on a tough day anyway. Just wondering who's right here. Am I the asshole? And did I handle the situation badly by getting my son a small treat because he was disappointed?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh my goodness, this is a wonderful scenario to think through because it is a little bit complex and Initially will admit my hesitation was I don't love food rewards for disappointments or handling emotional hurt. And yet what this original poster did was created more than. Food reward because it sounds like they walked there, they created a moment in time. They probably talked along the way. She did attend to the child's disappointment and asked about it and was curious and really did a lot of wonderful things to make it not just about the Slurpee. The Slurpee was this incidental thing that her husband disagreed with. I think this is really interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I so I don't think her husband's wrong, per se, but he's wrong. Like I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Was kind of trying to stay away from the judgment for just a minute.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, OK, but you know, but I when I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Explore the psychological aspects of this and each of them perspective.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

When I say I don't think he's sure when I say I don't think he's wrong. What I mean is like his point about kids need to learn how to handle this appointment and that sometimes the answer is The thing is closed or you can't do what you. Want to do sometimes? You know, I 100% get all of what he's saying and believe it's act. But like that this was less I totally agree with you. This is less about the Slurpee than about the experience. Yeah, and I, I've, I've, I, I have. I don't they're Slurpees. It's like it's like just the just sugar water, probably high in syrup water. And I just, you know, but and but I've also like I have I have teenagers and sometimes like the best way to connect with kids is to find something they really like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's what we're born.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And to just go off and I've they're, I’m certainly guilty of going to the quick trip or with my now 18 year old to go for a drive because there's something going on and getting some really horrific food and you know, sitting outside and eating in the car because it gave us a chance to connect and have converse.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you know, it's not like she's saying, oh, poor baby, you had a tough day. Here's your Slurpee. It’s creating the experience. And I have no problem with what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She did at all. Yeah. So you and I both believe that emotions have a purpose and disappointment is no different. And the experience of the sadness that accompanies. Disappointment. Brings people to us it. It is the you know that long sad face that someone notices and wants to help attend to. And so I think from a biological or evolutionary perspective, this child's disappointment is serving the function which is bringing my parent closer to me and understanding my hurt and sadness is not going to fix it with the Slurpee. Mom wasn't trying to fix it.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With the Slurpee she was trying to fix it with. Noticing that this child is having that and creating that closeness, and that's what I love here. Not that she fed it with a Slurpee, that it is just incidental. Have been anything it could have been a pack of Pokémon cards from.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Target like, who cares?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And if we if we if we if we massage the facts which we like to do sometimes on the show or if we massage the facts then let's say this kid is having a tantrum and mom is saying we'll stop by and get your Slurpee she goes to the thing and she hands him a Slurpee in the back seat and he has a Slurpee and they just go on their way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In that moment that I sadness.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And don't. Then I'm. I'm getting closer to where Dad's saying, you know, giving him a treat in order to deal. So his disappointment is wrong. He needs to learn how to cope with it. But Mom created a life experience for him where she connected with him about his disappointment or at a time when maybe even about this point. But at a time when he's feeling disappointed. So it's a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Totally different scenario.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It I mean it really is. And I think part of coping with disappointment whether you be a child or an adult is knowing that you have safe, secure people around you that you can share that disappointment with that you can be honest and you can tell them I have these feelings about this. Experience and they are going to respond. This is for me. It's a basic caregiver level of response for an 8 year old. And so I again I come down mom was absolutely in the right. I agree though I don't think Dad was in the wrong per se like I think he's thinking about it in important ways he just missed the mark.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, dad's not. An asshole here. No, he totally missed the mark. I think this is akin to a friend who was going through a really tough time and I said, hey, you want to go grab a beer? And we sat down and we had a beer together and we talked about mostly not about the stuff he was going through, but a little bit about the stuff he was going. Through and was it about the beer? I mean, don't get me wrong, it was a local brewery and it was a delicious beer, but it was about the connected, the connected experience and sharing, sharing what was going on in our worlds and it was meaningful. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no. No, no. And it was. I mean, I've done something similar. My own breakup. When this first relationship. And so my offer was alright. Take a pint of ice cream. We're going to sit down and it opens up the ice cream. It was about creating this experience. Your parents here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. We we've all done this, whether it's ourselves and our own disappointments in life, whether it's friends it but but the key here is it's about the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And about the connection with Mom about the connection and that. And he may remember, like he won't remember the ride. But years from now he remembered. They remember that day when he was really struggling and mom and I walked three blocks down and we got a Slurpee. And we sat on the edge, the we sat on the, the, the, the curb. Outside and drank our Slurpees and had a good conversation. I don't remember what the ride was though, like I could see that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Didn't you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And I think the OP's point about, you know, we do this for ourselves. I've had a hard day. So I'm going to fill in the blank with some sort of food or beverage. Or if you're at work and your Co workers, do you think you're having a hard day? I mean, how many of us have experienced or seen a coworker show up with a treat type coffee? Just because I know it's been a rough day and I and I see your disappointment and that's I think one of the most validating things when we are experiencing. Emotions is that someone else sees it and cares enough to notice? That's all. Fix it. But being seen and cared for is really important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think and I think that especially when talking about raising kids, you know, recognizing when it is that how do we connect with kids. And I think about with especially with teen and tween age kids, sometimes those best connection points happen in the car because we have to. We're stuck in the car for 20 minutes, getting to whatever we're going to. And we're just shooting the shed, but it's a great connection point and opportunity to to to just be in the same space together. That's positive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. I find Dade response to be a little rigid. A little, a little too cuz I don't know. Then what dad's response would be in terms of attending to this child. Just suck that buttercup is not a really great response. And if that's going to be the approach, then we have an emotional myth here. We're really losing an opportunity to teach our kids. Something. About sort of that emotional IQ, or sometimes I call it emotional literacy and just being kind of aware and skilled at feelings, cuz that's important just as much as academic. So if Dad is of that school, I think it's a myth. I think his heart's probably in the right place. Don't feed the kids corn syrup and sugar and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Whatever else, just to put a Band-Aid on some sad feelings, but I think he's missing the overall kind of most important. Aspect of this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now I do want to flip this just a little bit and say it's clear that mom is giving her like, like it's something she said along the way. And Michael, correct me, wrong. She's I. I didn't feel like giving him this little treat was, you know, so like, there's definitely an agenda here. She didn't post this with a with a. Hey, tell me which of us is right and which of us is wrong. There's definitely a I want support from the Internet, so I can tell my husband that he's wrong and I'm reading that in there, which and whenever someone's doing that, whether intentionally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or unintentionally, we sometimes massage things a little bit because we're seeing it from our own perspective. I would love to see husbands post about this exactly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh that would be really interesting, yeah.

Host: Michael:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It might be the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's a good catch.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Stain. And it might be my kid was screaming and crying the whole way home, and my wife just said if you stop screaming, crying, I'll get you a Slurpee. And then I don't know, maybe the facts are exactly as Mom said. I don't want to necessarily doubt her. We try to take people at face value and not but and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MM.

Host: Michael:

I love it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want to hear the other side too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, that. Would that would be fair is fair and we unfortunately probably don't get to do that unless somehow we've gotten some comments here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But you know, have we talked about and versus?

Host: Michael:

You. Some comments.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But do you? Want to say a few words about?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we have talked about Ann versus, but I talked about it, my clinical office a lot, right? OK. So for me when people say but the word is by definition subtractive, it takes away.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Share share.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

From I love my husband, but he didn't bring me coffee yesterday. Like it, it diminishes, right? I don't know. Like it just. It feels like it takes away from something versus and is literally from a mathematics perspective. It's additive. And so we're adding to the experience. I love my husband. And he forgot to bring me coffee yesterday. There's an opportunity for some gentleness there, right? Like it. It rounds out the story. It makes it more complete and full as opposed to having that more negative negative edge.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember this training thing I did like in some corporate thing 40 years ago, 30 years ago, when they called that the all negating button.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because yeah, and that good. Every everything you say before the, but now becomes the exact opposite, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Which is why you don't apologize with the buff, right? I'm really sorry. But like then, that means you're.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm really sorry, but that that means I am not asshole sorry at all, right? And so like, like I am constantly and I know you do the same thing when we're working with couples, it's like no butts.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not sorry, right? Yeah. And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was there, I figured myself.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They're hard. They're really hard to strike from your vocabulary. I still am aware of of my own rule and I struggle against.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sometimes, and I have to be really thoughtful when I give an apology, especially to my children who know this, because the moment that enters in, you're like, no, I don't mean that looking back out, let me try again. And I think it is fair in those cases to say, how did you over try again cuz I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They're putting you on the spot. Know that was not good. So you admit. I'll admit to doing this in my own. Discussions with kids or spouse being like the da da button. Go shit. Let me start again. Let me start again. Yeah, they.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And yeah, because I really want to emphasize that it's not the first part doesn't go away because of what I'm. Saying in the second part.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so that's a little refund, but, but versus Anne, Michael, I think you were going to jump in about some.

Host: Michael:

Comments. Well, I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you before I tell you about what the Internet had to say. I think not to defend the dad, but like, thinking of other possibilities, how he might be motivated. I could imagine a scenario where these two parents have had.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, 9 override.

Host: Michael:

Rules around food consumption in terms of sugar and that kind of thing. And so, you know, if you were trying to find a way to comfort the. Child without food, you. Know what? What are some things that you would think would kind of work in that place? You know, she's she's for whatever reason is connected into the Slurpee. And this is just a small, sweet treat. Whatever. It's fine. But there's got to be something else that you could do not. Food related cuz you guys both talked about quality of time so like if not food, what else would you substitute for?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pick a board game.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I think. It's like the classic I remember learning this when doing some learning theory stuff early on. The reward is whatever the person wants to do, you know, whatever their preferred activity is. If your preferred activity is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A boy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I prefer to go get a floppy with that, but that's not consistent with in this massage version of the fact that's not consistent with the parents choices. So then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure. Yeah, if we. If we can find, sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. If we can find a preferred activity or preferred choice thing that's not slurpy related, that would be the answer to this to that that that question is, is it? What is the thing that the kid wants to do? Is it playing and you know, I'll play that video game you've been wanting to play with you for a while. I'll watch that show you've been wanting to watch play that game that you want to take. I've will go on a bike ride around the neighborhood, whatever it is that the kid. Really likes you want to find that preferred behavior, but preferably what I like about the Slurpee over some of those. Some of those other choices is that that they walk there and that slows down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and what I like about it too is it also it slows it down, right, creates the experience and. From a monetary standpoint, there's little investment here. You know Mom's point is it was just over a buck. If you were to then ask the child, you know, OK, so we're not going to do something food related a lot of times we jump to then buying the child a trinket or a toy of their choice. And that starts to get more expensive more quickly. You have more stuff in the house. Lots of parents are. In a really I think good position to say I have too many things. And so we won't need just more things in the house. I think that's even just more of an opportunity for a Band-Aid than this experience with the Slurpee. So for me, the Slurpee hits that just right now, but if you didn't have that as an option, I definitely would be choosing an activity of the child's choice. And I would probably make it really clear that it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

An activity there's another element. Here, though, one thing that seems to be true and I and. And listeners, if you if I'm wrong, please tell me. But every culture I've ever heard of, and I know this is like way extreme. We nurture with food like so, like every culture has the equivalent of the feeding frenzy in the church basement after a funeral. It's like after a bad thing we get together and we and we eat. We need to celebrate as well but. Food food is like you think, about every celebration seems to have a food attached to it every sad event.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright, weed tomorrow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Has a food attached to it, so like it's not so out of line to commute to, to connect with people over over food, which can be a bit of a nurturing thing. Now we have to be careful about it obviously, because it could become overly used and I think that's Dade concern here, but I don't, I don't and well, no. But but I don't think moms concern or moms what mom did. Fits that concern of overusing food because we do often, we so frequently connect around food. If you have friends over, you're going to feed them, right? If you had a sad event, you're going to feed people. If you have a happy event, you could feed people you know you want to welcome. People to the neighborhood. You bring them food? Yeah. No, I totally agree. Yeah. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Completely normal response.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we're going to render a verdict here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we already have. Haven't we?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, Mom's not the athlete.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's around it. Chucked around it a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And. Yeah. Mom's not the asshole and dad, like, I don't think he's an asshole. I don't even think he's mildly dickish. I just think that he doesn't get it and needs to give this more thought from a different perspective.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yep. I'm going to say no assholes here again. Had a little bit of swing in the mess. But like, not even an apple.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a good that's a good way of putting it. Data that swing and. A miss. So Michael, what did the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Well, I'm going to. I'm going to flip it really quick. I'm curious. What? What do you think the Internet said? You obviously have ingested the Internet for many years. Based on what we generally get from them. What do you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Problem is that it has some damn unpredictable we've had times where we have been way off from what we had said. Like I would love to think the Internet agreed with us because I love it.

Host: Michael:

Think their response on?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When I'm agreed with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I listened to. I actually listened to one of our podcasts yesterday. In the car and. I now I'm not blank, completely blanking on the top. Ohh the Doughnut 1 where we're where we Gayle and I were like absolutely it's this way and apparent and the Internet just like shit all over our perspective and everyone disagreed with us and we're like I'm still thinking that they're. And. I'm right I. Can't predict what they're going to say, but I would like to. Think that they're going to see it the way we do.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, they they were. I don't think I found anybody on there who said that the mom was the asshole at all. They were all not the asshole. The one thing that I think I was not. I should have anticipated but was not expecting was how much they piled on the dad and being and they were just like, you know, your husband must have had a terrible childhood and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Host: Michael:

And all this stuff and then like ripping him a new one which, you know, knowing the Internet like I should have seen that coming. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

There were two. Responses that I thought were worth reading that I thought I would share real quick. Which is one said, not the asshole your kid did learn how to deal with disappointment. He had to process his feelings about not seeing the attraction, and he talked to you about it. What your son learned is that he can always count on you to be an attentive ear when something is wrong in his life. And while you can't fix the whole world for him, you'll at least try to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Host: Michael:

Make it a little better.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Just what? What was that? What was that? That person's username? Because it's often stuff like, you know, like, like, like, part blocker, 69420. That's like, you know, like thanks part blocker 69420. Like who comes up with this brilliant, insightful that was terrific, probably as good a better summary than I have in this. So what was the, what's the, you know, that guy's username was or gal's username was.

Host: Michael:

Just looked it up so it was a trouble walking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, that's that's, I don't know it's disappointing. I was hoping for something Wilder than. That but thank.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And then the other one was, you're exactly right. As adults, we do treat ourselves when we have a rough day, we indulge in dessert or a glass of wine. We watch garbage television. We sometimes indulge that indulge before or what we predict will be a rough day. By treating ourselves to Starbucks or our favorite breakfast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You.

Host: Michael:

By doing something small like getting a Slurpee, you taught your son how to give himself a quick pick me up without going overboard. So yeah, and lots of people weighed in with like, it's just a asshole Slurpee. Like, ease up. Yeah. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I think again, again where Father isn't isn't completely wrong is that we don't want to overuse this, but I'm going to be taking a kid to college on Wednesday, and I think it's a really high probability that I'm going to get myself a doughnut on the way back. And I don't really think eat meat eating doughnuts is a nearly 60 year old man is a great idea, but I'm probably going to get a doughnut or something really bad for me on the way home. Just. And if I did that every day, it'd be problematic. But if I do that on, if I do that this week, I'm OK with it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, the one thing I was surprised that nobody mentioned that like I was trying to think through like what would I do that would be non food related and you know with our with our teenagers, I like going for walks with them and being able to talk and kind of process and that kind of thing. So the walk part of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

Work with an 8 year old with a little bit harder because there's so much more immediately driven, you know, but like one of the things I would have liked to have done is call the place and find out when the attraction was going to be open and then make plans like put on the calendar like we're going to go here to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

See it then or whatever, but right cuz what Dad missed is that the reward here wasn't the Slurpee. Right reward was the walk with mom and the support of and the support and caring that was the that was the reward and I'll give. That I'll give that, that, that that's that's good all day long.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. Well. Great. Thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white or flippy or no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Athens here. Now I often reflect on how strange some of these are, but this is not strange. This was incredibly human and I think a really common parenting experience. So thank you for sharing this with us.

Host: Michael:

Thanks so much. Please follow and share of our test reviews. Any of our podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends and always stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan, you have a bonus conversation for us. I've excited.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I do. I have a question for you. I disclosed my like I'm on my way back from dropping the kids off to college and I'll probably get myself a a doughnut or, or honestly, it may even be like, like a thing of fry. Eyes or like at Wendy's, where they have the fries, you can dip it in the frosty, you know, they get the, you know, up, so I'll probably it'll probably be like either a sweet treat or say something I normally don't let myself get, you know, what's your? I had a shit day or I'm having a tough time and I need a little like I just want a little something that to kind of like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is there something like that for for you, Gayle?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I think not a realistic option on the regular, but I'm going to. I'm just going to warn you up front. Like, keep keep your headphones and check here for a moment, cuz one of the loveliest treats that I actually I really enjoy is when you make an old fashioned. You have nailed that, my friend, and I really do enjoy. No, that's not something I typically have when I have a bad day. But you were asking about treats and. And so for me, that's kind of that's a treat. I don't get it often, and I often swing in this. When I make it myself so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would think you know, but my my my thought you might say just. Bourbon straight but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, yeah, bourbon and I have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But like not but like I want to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A complicated relationship with like enjoy it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want to be clear. A burban, not bourbon. You know the difference between a bourbon and bourbon. So I don't want to. I don't want to cast any aspersions here on your use of alcohol. Which?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Other than right, right, right. Hi. No. Fair, fair. That's where I think that old fashioned is really a treat. It's an old fashion made by somebody else. It creates an experience and connection.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that's that, that, that, that is far more important. So Michael, you can take out the part about me saying she'd have a bourbon if you think it's or gales like it, please. Well, thank you. I appreciate. I appreciate that. I see what you what you're saying there is like. It's something a little bit special done by someone else, which is which can be dealt. We can feel a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bit nurturing. Yeah. Yeah. And taking care of because. I'm not making it myself, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Excellent. Well, thanks so much, Michael for bringing us another really, really, really cool discussion and looking forward to whatever we have next week.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

During this episode, we call out statistics and information about domestic abuse. Here is that content.

If you, or someone you know, needs help:

• https://www.thehotline.org/

• 800.799.SAFE (7233)

• https://www.acf.hhs.gov/ofvps/fv-centers

Statistics:

• An average of 24 people per minute are victims of rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner in the United States — more than 12 million women and men over the course of a single year.

• Nearly 3 in 10 women (29%) and 1 in 10 men (10%) in the US have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by a partner and reported it having a related impact on their functioning.

• Just under 15% of women (14.8%) and 4% of men in the US have been injured as a result of intimate partner violence that included rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.

• 1 in 4 women (24.3%) and 1 in 7 men (13.8%) aged 18 and older in the US have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

• Intimate partner violence alone affects more than 12 million people every year.

• Over 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the US have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

• Almost half of all women and men in the US have experienced psychological aggression by an intimate partner in their lifetime (48.4% and 48.8%, respectively).

• Women ages 18 to 24 and 25 to 34 generally experience the highest rates of intimate partner violence.

• From 1994 to 2010, approximately 4 in 5 victims of intimate partner violence were female.

• Most female victims of intimate partner violence were previously victimized by the same offender at rates of 77% for women ages 18 to 24, 76% for ages 25 to 34, and 81% for ages 35 to 49.

(statistics from: https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/)

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Hey all rare video appearance from your host Michael MacBride, but an important one as a trigger warning. Just to give you a heads up that this episode deals with domestic abuse, the show notes have resources if you're in a situation or somebody you know is. And needs help. Please do reach out. This episode is a little potentially more serious than others, so if you're looking for something light-hearted and funny this might not be it. But we didn't want to catch anyone by surprise for whom it might be a trigger. So thank you. Thanks for listening. And if you need help, please get it. Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and I am here today with my very favorite business partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To be clear. I'm your only business partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This true, but you're still my favorite.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just a just a. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the only business.

Host: Michael:

Actually you don't know. I mean, people might be listening this in the future and you might have other business. Partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go, Doctor Daniel, just from a clinical psychologist and look forward to this the high point of my week as we as Doctor MacBride and I pick apart another Internet quandary or conundrum or whatever Michael brings to us today. Michael, what do you have for us?

Host: Michael:

Well, yeah. Well, you're going to help figure that out, but if anybody is like, what is this? If you’re not familiar. In short, somebody on the Internet has posted this scenario and they asked that question that Doctor Kessler just asked, which is who is the asshole in this situation? That's what we hope to figure out. Also, if you're new, stick around through the credits, there'll be some kind of bonus conversation. We always chat about something, and those are often illuminating and. Honey, but neither Gayle nor Dan has read or seen this post before, so let's go. This one of my favorite kind of posts because it's been removed and like something has often gone awry when has attempted to be removed from the intern. But the title of this one is, am I the asshole for not taking my wife to my work event after she got a black eye from volleyball and?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh maybe.

Host: Michael:

The rest of the story is this past weekend, my work had an event where they rented out a small amusement park for employees and their families. The company has about 150 people, about 30 to 40 who knew me by name. I was planning on taking my wife with me. She hasn't met any of my coworkers, but this would have been a time for her to get that chance Thursday night and her intramural volleyball league. Someone spiked the ball at her and gave her a terrible black eye. She's fine, but it looks really bad. I didn't want the first time all my coworkers met my wife to be at a time that. She looks like I could have been responsible for giving her the black eye, so I told her not this time, but I'll take her to the next event. I went with my sister instead. She's still bitter about the whole thing. Also, for context, in the last four months AC level person at her company was fired for getting arrested on a domestic violence issue. Am I the asshole for not taking her? Because they didn't want people. To think that there was that kind of situation going on, my wife certainly thinks so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I agree. Sorry, open and shut.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I usually I'm the one to judge a book like boom, to have a snap judgment. That's the that's the thing. Tell me your thinking. Cause I have. I have. I'm leaning right. I’m certainly leaning AA your way. But I have a I have a some I like interested hearing your position on this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, I get.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Some of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, I think it's her choice if she wants to meet new people with a black guy. I mean, I think very often kind of stereotypical normative women would say, yeah, I don't really want to meet your whole 150 person company and their families with this big. Reiner. But honestly, I think it's her choice if you are telling her that she shouldn't go because of how she looks, I think that makes you an asshole. If she says I don't want to go and I don't want to present myself this way for the first time, I'll pass. Then you support her choice. But to tell her she can't go, I think is tone deaf to. To her, her ability to choose and voice what she wants for her. Self regardless of whether or not you're afraid that you're going to be perceived as something negative or something that you're not, I think a simple a simple hey play volleyball. This this the result of that. Like, I don't know, I think he's being way too sensitive about this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think he I think you're right and at this end I also I like I'm not completely unsympathetic to his anxiety as as someone who is both both anxious and male so and married and married I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And Mary?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I get. The, the, the fear. I do. I do get that anxiety. You know, and when women are harmed by their partners, it's, you know, especially if they're in a really controlling relationship and are really awful relationship. You know that the explanation is it comes in and I can I get his anxiety I also. I think that like he didn't give her the black eye, but now he's being a bit controlling, you know, like, like there's an irony there that troubles me like, like if she wants to go with a black eye, that's her. That's her business. And he shouldn't tell her what she should or shouldn't do because of her appearance.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. I'm with you. I am very sympathetic to the optics of this. I just don't think the optics are helped by making this controlling decision for her. I think the way you share and tell the story among your colleagues and coworkers helps them understand that you are not just providing them a cover. You know, you laugh, you know, it’s a, you know, this was this was a hotly contended volleyball point. You know, my wife's a badass like, whatever it is. Those are not the kinds of explanations that come up in interpersonal, violent, interpersonally violent couples. Right. You see the I walked into a door. Downstairs, I don't think you see that life lighthearted humor shared by both sides, which mitigate the perception I. Leave that he has. He has committed interpersonal violence.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I yeah, I mean it, it’s, you know, it's a sort of there. There's a reality that when a when a woman is harmed when a woman is when there's a murder there's always the assumption that it's the male partner and there's good reason for that because it usually is yeah you know and. Partner domestic partner violence. And maybe we can put up the statistics on this far more common than we would ever like. To think it is, it is a really it's a I can see. I like. I see his anxiety. I think that there will be people who will potentially jump to that conclusion and but that's not like we shouldn't like women shouldn't hide away because they've been injured, right. And he shouldn't ask her to hideaway because she's been injured. You know, so I have a question. We'll get hurt. People get hurt.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Question. Would he have made the same, let's call it a request? Let's soften it a little bit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If he had gone for the ball and fell, and instead of getting hit in the face with the ball, resulting in a black eye, she fell and broke her arm, and now she's going to arrive with an arm. And a canvas. I don't think it would be the same, and yet this scenario of interpersonal violence could be the same. I mean, we know that broken bones. Happen in interpersonal violence relationships. So what is it about the black eye that is so anxiety producing for him, even versus another very visible kind of injury?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, I think it it you know the, the, the IT is a I think it's obviously more to me it's a more stereotypical domestic violence sort of injury the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Black eye and so. Again. I am, I am really troubled by him telling her what to do. Yeah, and that's the that's the bottom line. I don't. I don't think he's an asshole for being for having some anxiety. I think he's an asshole for telling her what to do because I don't think men get to tell women what to do, especially when it's something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That relates to their body, right. And so let's talk about this anxiety for a moment. Anxiety. Is it really difficult? Motion to kind of sit with it. You know, it really can be pretty all consuming. Anxiety for me, I think we've talked about this before, is really based on the. I mean the physical outcome of the worry, right. I have a cognitive experience in my head. I create a world or a situation where I start to think about something, which then results in the Physiology of worry versus the OR. Excuse me of. Physiology of anxiety versus a similar Physiology when it comes to fear, right? And those get really mixed up. So he is worried and experiencing anxiety that his coworkers are going to think a thing that's bad or that he could even lose his job, right? But that's not actually happening. The lion is to say, is not at the mouth of The Cave. Right. That would be fear if the lions at the mouth of The Cave were in trouble here. If you're about to get fired, we're in trouble. But this just a a confabulation or concoction in his head that doesn't reflect reality. It's not to diminish the feeling of worry in that moment. It's a very real feeling. But it's just that sometimes our feelings. Do not reflect reality and I think in this case, because he is allowing us to assume that he and his wife have a non violent relationship that then there is really, truly. Nothing to be fearful of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here, right and that is such an important distinction, distinguishing between fear, which should be respected, we we you know if yeah. And anxiety. Mm-hmm. And the function of anxiety is to protect us from danger. The function of anxiety is to protect us from doing stupid shit that could make us dead. That's the bottom line. That's what anxiety is for. But it and we can't mistake it for for fear and we have to we're we're you and I are constantly working with people with anxiety about the you know unrelated to. Topic people with anxiety and one of the things we're trying to do with them is differentiate. Is this situation a fear situation, in which case we do want to change your behavior? Or is this situation an anxiety situation, in which case we want to encourage you to lean into, you know, mindfulness accurate, self talk, and engaging with the anxiety provoking situation because avoidance.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Makes it worse. Yes, and sustained it. Really. And I always tell people, you know, this kind of avoidance makes your world smaller, right. You continue to eliminate things because it causes you anxiety. And that's not the solution. Like you said, the solution is to walk into it half and talk about it. More like judo, right. You don't want to use your. You don't want to combat energy. You want to use your enemies energy against them. So you walk into anxiety so that you use that anxieties energy against it and we can start to sometimes even relabel this as excitement, right, because physiologically these start to look really similar in the body too. Not that I'm that he's excited to explain to his coworkers. About his wife's black eye. OK. But it might might be excited to use a skill in a situation, yeah?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, it's that agitation that sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system that I can never remember.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh would you like to?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Which is excitatory one's excitatory and one's calming. I've taught this in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Help you, OK. Honey intro classes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In so many at 25 introduction to psychology class, I've mentioned it to hundreds of clients over 30 years. I cannot remember which is a kind of door. So someone out there like comment on whatever platform you're on if you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can I can I tell you here today?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How to or for me?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I will. I will tell you, I think about the sympathetic nervous system is sympathy, right? Like we are emotionally connected to someone else. That's the excitatory run. Quite, quite and freeze. And we can have that in fawn. And then parasympathetic right. Para being sort of next to or less than or subset of and that's the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So that's the excitatory 1. Alright, alright.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I love to. I love to call this out, right, that relaxation response which we get rest digest. OK. And Bree? So those are the responses we tend to get when we're in a relaxed state of of being. Not everyone has every one of those, but quite frequently, when you're in sympathetic, nervous, sympathetic, nervous system functioning, you don't do very well at Breast digest, feed and breathe. They tend to go pretty wonky, and if anyone's experiencing anxiety, you. You know that again to tell all the way down that that justice system that's really jacked.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember learning the sympathetic, which I now. Remember, do it. Again, don't. So I was taught this the sympathetic nervous system being the 4F's of behavior, freezing, fighting, fleeing and sex. So for what it's worth. Yeah, but back to.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I'm curious where you guys ultimately fall, so like oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The topic at hand?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Where do we?

Host: Michael:

What is? What is your declaration?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fall.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, I'll go first. I am going to call him. I'm going to give us a soft asshole on this. Oh, that sounds bad. I am go on the on the asshole slider here. I got that. Really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That sounds that sounds just as bad. I have to tell you, that sounds really nice.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. On the meter of problematic, I really fall over the middle line on this. I'm not going to go wow, you know, and bring.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

On the meter. Yeah. Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On the hammer on this guy. But I do see his behavior as problematic and more asshole than not, and not even just socks here, because he's really giving way to anxiety. He's being and he's said controlling and telling his wife what to do and he removed agency from her to be able to attend, been filed to injury. I'm going to take my sister and it's an amusement park stuffing down dinner. It was a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fun day at a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Park I want to know a bit more about his anxiety. I really do. And we don't know. We and the you know, the post has been removed as Michael has said we don't know. How much anxiety has we're kind of making an assumption here that there's anxiety driven, but I'm. I’m I may even come down. Like I started out softer than where you are and I think I may be harder than where you are where you are now. Wow. I'm really fairly troubled by his removal of her agency. Like like regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable he feels with this. He doesn't get to tell her what to do. Period. And especially when it's something fun and enjoyable and that she's looked forward to and an opportunity and. And no, no, I’m. I'm a bit firmer on the on the ASK on this here. I just I'm not I’m not comfortable with I just can't get wrap my head around it. It like him saying you can't do that. So Michael what the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

The. Yeah. Say this part of why I chose this post was. Not only it was a very different scenario than a lot of the other ones we've talked about, but it was so one sided and Internet. I don't know that I found a single person that was willing to call him an asshole. They all said not the asshole and male and female at least identify.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really.

Host: Michael:

Online said I totally understand. They gave a number of scenarios where, well, it was our child showed up to daycare this way and this thing happened even though it was completely innocuous. Then these two were kind of interesting. This one said a few years ago, right before my parents left on a cruise, she had an accident at my sister's. Most result in a black eye and bruises on her arm. My dad was not with her at the time of the accident, so he definitely didn't cause it. Just to be clear, the cruise was awkward for both of them, but especially for my dad since her obvious questions about what. And some people didn't seem to accept my mom's explanation, another post said. Years back, I used to date a female police officer. One night we had a date scheduled and she said I might not want to take her out. She had gotten a scuffle with someone being arrested and had a black guy and a fat lip. Went anyway. An old lady at the restaurant came up and hit me with her cane. While telling me I should be ashamed of herself. You had every reason to worry, however. Maybe the final decision should have been allowing your wife to decide, and that was the softest accusation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Yes, but that's the the police officer won, though that's fine because she said to him, if you feel uncomfortable with me with not taking me, I'm OK not going out with you tonight if that makes you uncomfortable. That's if he says yes. I'd rather like if this this in in this. Yeah. If in this whole scenario his wife had. Said, you know, I look awful. I'd love to go to this thing, but if you feel uncomfortable taking me, like, if you think people are, look askance if you think it's going to create questions. If you'd rather not. I'm totally fine with not going. Then he's not an asshole. Exactly what makes him an asshole? Isn't that he didn't want her to go or felt uncomfortable with her going, but makes him an asshole. Is that he told her you can't go because of what? People might think or. Might react, yeah, so. Those scenarios that those people are giving are totally different and I think about the times and like, OK, Full disclosure, I'm an old, I'm an old man. I think about those times when I've showed up to, like, pick up kids at daycare and they're like, can we see your ID? I'm really sorry that we want to see your ID. Don't apologize to me. Ask for my ID. I want you to ask for my ID. I'm happy that you're asking for my ID. Like you absolutely should be asking for my ID. You know, I have no trouble with that because we do know that there are people out there who are predators or. People out there who are who are violent to their partners and I think it's like like, sorry if you're a little little workout. But like we should be double checking people and if some. And report something and it gets investigated. It would suck. It would totally suck, but I'd rather I think that we make we make the mistake the other way too often. And I think we need to if we're going to make a mistake, we need to make the mistake of like protecting kids or protecting protecting partners rather than worrying about, like, what I feel different. I've never had a dealing like this. So I don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I brought kids to daycare as you're sort of starting to talk about with injuries. And the first thing I've done is said, here's what happened and they might look at me and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, totally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, well, thanks for the information and you are allowed to look at me as scans and you're allowed to then keep notes for the next couple of weeks and you're allowed to watch and see how my kid looks, because you're supposed to be protecting them. And if you think there's something funny going on, you absolutely should be collecting data.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

However, but let's I do want to caveat this and that's that the the children especially. And I've done some trainings with this. We have to be careful because people who are trained in questioning children know how to ask children. About injuries and potential harm without leading them because too often when we ask children questions, we lead them unintentionally. And when you, a leading question is like did like did your did your mom do this to you? You know as opposed to what happened here? Yeah. And sometimes people will well meaning folks will.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ask leading questions of child. And I think these questions absolutely need to be asked, but they need to be asked by professionals who know what they're doing and can ask the question correctly. So, so, so we we do that. That's one of the reasons why actually reporting maybe better than than asking the kid you do the report the kid gets interviewed and like, yeah, OK, the professional who's doing the interviewing is going to be much better and accurately providing that interview. Then, then, then a, then, then an untrained person would be this might.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So I think that's a really important caveat. So thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For adding that, yeah, yeah, but I've. I've also brought kids to daycare and gone. Oh, no. You know, these kids fall down and I've got, you know, a bunch of kids, and they fall down. They hit, they they they get a fat lip. They they they they get a bruise over there. Yeah. Nurse maids Elbow is a perfect example of one of those injuries that that can easily happen. That's fairly innocuous but can look bad to the outside observer and look it up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There's made elbow. Your parent, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sometime if you're curious about it.

Host: Michael:

You know, it's interesting hearing you guys talk about it because that was when I read this post, I mean that was the first thing I thought of was that he was making the decision for her. You know, there was number conversation there. Nothing. He just. Nope, that's it. And that was the part that offended me right away. And yet it was missed in almost every one of the comments. It like, online. It just felt like people got wrapped up in. Ohh, that happened to me. Oh, here's the story. Not. Hey, you really shouldn't tell your wife what to do. Like, right, man, you have a conversation about that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So if he wasking, like, if he if he if it was leading up to the event and he wasking am I the asshole for feeling anxious about this, I would say absolutely not. If it's leading up to the event, he's but post hoc saying am I the asshole for not. Letting her go? Absolutely yes.

Host: Michael:

And taking his sister, I mean that is a weird choice also. Like, I don't really understand that either.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Ohh yeah yeah.

Host: Michael:

All right. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet Forum. So remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, think about Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, I got I got. I got. I got nothing. Alright. Ohh no. Wait, I do. Stay tuned afterwards for our special bonus snippet that we're going to make up on the fly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey.

Host: Michael:

Awesome. Well, please follow and share your test views and the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits like Dan said, for whatever bonus conversation we're going to have. See you there.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

For listening as promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. Dan, I wondered if you would be up for sharing with our listeners a little bit about how we came to name our business. So I wanted to talk about our business for a moment. We are Veritas Psychology Partners and this Veritas Views, but yeah. What do you remember about coming up with the name?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The naming. OK, so we sat around and we're just like firing names back and forth. People often names name their practices after locations. We don't want to do that but. We kind of began centering we began centering around the idea that therapy is around. Finding your own truth, finding the perspective that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Makes the most sense. That's most accurate. We work a lot with people with anxiety. And they don't have accurate thinking. We walk, we, we work a lot with you know we're cognitive therapists, both of us cognitive behavioral therapists. That means that we're starting with the, you know, what is the rational thought? What is the irrational thought and how can we find the truth? Not the happy thought, but the truth to combat the negative thought that a person's having so finding a truth, their top psychology. Partners can you? Is that, does that jive with your recollection, Gayle?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, we tried so many different things on and we didn't necessarily want it to be the, you know, Kessler MacBride show necessarily. And were really centered on the experience that the client would have with us. And this something that we share in common. Is that cognitive approach and really trying to help people develop more accurate thoughts like you said and very tough meaning truth, right. It's just to find your truth. We both have a forensic background. So I think we're a little bit, maybe a little bit nerdy that way. And there's just really just felt like the right word. And so yeah, no, that totally jives with my memory.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, there you go. Excellent.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks for tuning in tuning. Again next week for a whole other am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and my the Robin to my Batman is doctor Dan Kessler, who is joining us here today. Like I mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I will accept that I will accept that decision. I will accept that designation. Great to be here again with a couple of my favorite folks, Gayle and Michael, as we as we piece together, Michael, you always bring us interesting stuff and what I what I like about this is that I frequently start out with a position or a thought immediately and then like. And as we talk about it, like sometimes the Internet convinces me more frequently. Dr. MacBride convinces me that like maybe my tech isn't quite right, and these are fun conversations to have. So Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So you say you come out of the gate with a boom and a pal and a snack and a bam.

Host: Michael:

Again, with the superhero stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You can. You can. Michael, can you fix that in post, right.

Host: Michael:

Welcome both of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow.

Host: Michael:

You for any of the newbies who are like, what did I just stumble upon what we're going to do is I have found a scenario out there on the Internet that somebody has posted and they've asked essentially, who is the asshole here. And that's what doctors, Kessler and MacBride hope to determine today. Also, if you're new, stick around through the end, there's some kind of quirky. In this conversation and this time around, I mean we want to asking the question, so that'll be different, but for now, neither Gale nor Dan have read this. I haven't shared the post with him ahead of time. I haven't told him anything about. So let's go today's post. The headline is nice and short and sweet, which is am I the asshole for not offering an open bar at my wedding? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Again we, we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Boom pal bam.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was joking about fixing that in post earlier, but I'm not so sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, not so much. Come on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, all right, we both automatically automatically said no. But there's probably more. But I'm going to say no.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I'll read the rest.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here you should read the rest. Please help us. Here otherwise it is the world's shortest podcast. I know people like quick, but this is ridiculous. So you need to help us stretch it out a little.

Host: Michael:

So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, not not.

Host: Michael:

My my fiance and my wedding invites have started arriving along with invites is a few things that we felt we should outline before guests arrived to the reception. We have decided to not include an open bar. I come from an alcoholic heavy family and simply don't feel comfortable being around people. Were drinking heavily instead, my fiance and I have decided to have a drink ticket like service instead. With that service, we've been able to customize how we want alcoholic beverages being handled at our reception. And the venue says this kind of service happens all the time. There it was in fact their suggestion. So I didn't think of this as a big deal with the invitations. Was a card with the expectations one is to expect from the ceremony and the reception. I didn't want to shock people when they arrived. So I figured the cards would be a nice classy heads up for our guests, the drink service. Of the card said, essentially, that alcoholic drinks were limited to two per of age guess. The tickets are non transferable and like other beverages offered would need to be ordered from your seat at your assigned table. Drinks were also to be enjoyed at your assigned table. I've been called a lot of rude things after family, both sides and friends are receiving their cards. My fiancee has as well, but a little less. So the most common thing being bridezilla. But I did have an uncle reach out to me and say that I'm being an asshole for trying to spoil the fun of a wedding reception. The response has been mostly negative and has been from all sides of the family and friends. And now my head is swirling as I try to figure out what to do. So am I an asshole? Because I've set my reception up like this and not offering an open bar instead?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So this is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Interesting. Thank you for reading that I that the original poster was a male and that the female partner was getting fewer comments. But as you ended I'm hearing this as the OP is probably the bride and she's getting more pushback and being called bridezilla, whereas the. Groom's family is not pushing back. And do I? I just feel like I need to have some clarity in my brain that what you got from this as well.

Host: Michael:

That is correct.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. And so bride and groom have collaborated on a set of expectations around alcohol consumption at this event and have imposed a lot of rules, a lot of rigidity around this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The so at the beginning here, as she's describing this and OP is female correct as she's describing it. You know you want to have an open bar at your wedding, have an open bar. You want to only serve beer and wine? Your wedding, serve beer and wine. You want to have a cash bar at your wedding? It's your wedding. You decide. Right. I think people often get wrapped around the axle around. Why aren't they paying for liquor? Why are they paying for liquor? What are they doing? I think any way that you choose to do that at your personal wedding is your damn business. And then she crosses the line. Yeah. And. Well, I think she crosses the line is in trying to tell people what they can do. And that's the that's the that's the problem. There is. It's not, it's not. I choose.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What I remember. I do my wedding, my business. I don't get to necessarily tell you. What do you think, Al?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like. What you said there and I think for me it hits the discussion I often have with clients or on boundaries versus requests. And she I think she's getting some pushback here because there are so many requests attached to this as if they and being presented as if they are boundaries and they're not boundary is we're not, we're not paying for an open bar. We will pay for two drinks per individual of age alcoholic drinks, and that's the boundary. That is what is within the posters control and beyond that it is a request. Perhaps we would request that you stay at your seats to help minimize whatever. Although I do think that's extreme.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Perfectly fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But she is overreaching and seeming overly controlling by sort of demanding or having a rule that guests need to consume that alcoholic beverage at their seats. It's just this is problematic. Overreaching is the best word.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I have for it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think that's a good. I think that's a good word. And I'm uncomfortable with the bridezilla designation. And I do, I mean I I sort of I get her fear. You know we. Talked in the past about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And as I've talked about this in my Therapy Office number of times with this exact fear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we've talked about the, we've talked about, you know, where anxiety we should allow anxiety to guide us and where we should push back against anxiety and, you know, she doesn't want some someone to get drunk and act like an asshole at her wedding. Get that? Who wants that? That's. That would be awful. And given her family, it sounds like that's happened and she doesn't want that to be part of her wedding. I get it. And, and certainly by saying, you know, I think it's totally lit to ship to say words no open bar. There's no cash bar. Everyone's going to get 2 drink tickets, use them as you want. Please consume alcohol in moderation. We really would appreciate that. I am fine with that. You can only drink at your seat. You can only order from the wait staff. You can only the drink tickets are non transferable. Like too much.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. The invitation had been drink. Can be ordered at your seat from the wait staff. Fine. Because that's OK. Maybe the rule of the of the venue again telling you you have to stay seated. Well, you consume your drink that this is this is now bringing a different level to this party. I mean, the wedding reception is a party and I completely agree with you. Nobody needs to be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's fair. That's fair.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely at a wedding, and bride and grooms don't need to worry about how you're going to handle your alcohol or, you know, Uncle, Uncle Tony. Who's going to get out of hand start throwing fists and, you know, and I hear this, right? I mean, people are like, you know, I got. I got a person designated to the ship, starts going down there calling the. Because that's the kind of family I have, and I get it. And it's unfortunate and we can't not invite Uncle Tony. And I understand that too. But I think you're just setting up this this night for so much tension. Because if Uncle Tony wants to get lit, he's going to. He's going to play game. He's going to bring his own booze. He's going to hide.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It he is going to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Find a way to ruin your. Right, regardless of how many rules that you put into place, so lightening that up a lot of times will allow an evening to go more smoothly because you don't set out those alarm bells ahead of time. I do love that they're trying to give their guests a heads up. I think they just put two new rules and flows.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, no, we're. We're we're on the same page here. And I've certainly talked to people who loved like, yeah, they only serve whatever at the wedding. And I knew they could do it. So I brought a flask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't bring a flask to it. Don't do it unless it's like a family thing that people do and every wedding handled things differently. I've been to weddings where there was no alcohol served or a cash bar. I've been to weddings where, like, I went to wedding recently, where there was at a winery. So there was wine. Great. Wonderful, perfect. And. But I've also been to weddings. There was massive amounts of alcohol and everything. I'm sorry I'm prattling on here. I just think that like the bride and groom, get to choose how they serve the alcohol, but there also need to be some reasonable guardrails around not telling people what they can and can't do with their with their for themselves. Like that's their choice. You can kick them out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And for next one night is not going to create sobriety or healthy alcohol use in another individual. So you know at that point you leave that you make sure that people have ubers or you leave the taxi number and you make sure people are safe leaving your venue because that's becomes what you're responsible for. I mean, not the other piece of this right is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know as the server. That you have a responsibility to make sure people aren't over served and then leave and do something tragic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And I I get, I totally get her anxiety. But, you know, one of the things that we know fails is telling someone who has an alcohol problem what they can and can't do. Like that's we're not going to make someone who has an alcohol problem not drink. We want to give them the conditions possible to help them. We want to give them they want to we want to to minimize. The probabilities, but we can't be controlling about it too. They could have chose not. They could choose not to sort alcohol. That's actually a totally legitimate choice. We decided to have a. Dry wedding. OK, you could do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, or only champagne, only champagne at the toast. You going to come around? We're going to give you 1 glass cider for the kids.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Like that's, that's a legitimate choice because it's the difference there is if I choose not to serve alcohol at my wedding, I'm choosing to not serve alcohol at my wedding. I'm not telling you what you can and can't do, and I think there's. There's again, we often talk about this issue of and I love the way you framed it. It is a boundary is something I set for me and what I will accept the boundary is not something I set for you. You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Had a better way of saying it than that, though. Yeah, no, a request is is something that I right I can make of you. I request that you don't overindulge in alcohol. Right. But the boundary is within my control.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right now, if you're drunk at my wedding and you're being a dick, then I'm going to invite you to leave, or I'm going to have someone designated. Probably to invite you to leave. You being a dick, you know? Certainly. That's fine. That's entirely appropriate. Yeah. I don't want. I don't want to call her bridezilla. I think in her, in her zeal to avoid potential problems.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The wedding she potentially created a problem that's really unfortunate and could have been avoided with a with a more respectful way of putting things the person its own. Really as you say, angle Tony is going to plans on getting hammered at the wedding. Uncle Tony's going to get hammered the wedding, regardless of what guardrails you try to set up. Let's be reasonable about it, Michael. What the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

Gayle. Ohh wait. Gayle, do you agree? Are you totally on board with Dan's official ruling?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought. Gaudi.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, is that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think Dan said it really well. I think we're on the same page. I think it's this is. I don't think she needs to be called broad bridezilla. I generally don't like that term. I it's really sexist because I don't. Well, I think we know that in this case they'll call problem runs in the in the groom's family, but it may be the groom going. Look, I don't, uncle Tony. Getting locked up at our wedding. Right. And so it may be the groom that's imposing this and we don't use the term groomzilla.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, really sexist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So anyway, that's on the side. I do. I do agree with Dan. I think this is again I go back to the word overreaching. I understand the fear and we've talked a number of times about the anxiety that is created in any given situation and how you act and service to that and create a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it's not necessarily reflective of the real scenario here, but I do I do find it problematic how she tried to assuage her anxiety and to calm it. And I think we'll do nothing but actually create more angst, not just in the family feedback, but in the day of, because now she's in a position to be monitoring.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it sounds like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or he, you know, are both of them are in a position to be monitoring everyone's alcohol use. Are they following the rules? And that's just going to suck the joy out of their day so quickly?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm not willing to call her an asshole, but I really like your word there. This is an overreach. No, I think it comes from a from a good from a place of anxiety and from a place of worry. And it's an overreach. But I'm not. I don't even know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What? She sucks. I just over. The only word I have for her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just not willing to call her an asshole. But, Michael, what the Internet say about her?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, by the way, would be coming by the table and grabbing. Nope, that's your third drink and you got that tick drink ticket from Aunt Martha. That's mine. I'm pocket like that's asshole.

Host: Michael:

I hearing you guys talk about I mean what it sounds what it seems like to me is sometimes I fall down these like oh, this plan will work perfect. It'll be like this and that and blah blah. And like I really need someone to like workshop that idea with it. Which is why Gayle is such a wonderful partner that way because she's often. Like you know, maybe there's a better way. And so the Internet kind of echoed that of like, there are lots of better ways here. You could have a dry wedding. You could. You know, that seemed like that was the universal like, why don't you just not have alcohol or have it at the champagne toast like you had mentioned. But I'll say at the. End of the. Day. Almost everybody on the Internet called her an asshole because of the. Overreach because of the rules. There are a couple that I captured the post because they're kind of funny. Your ticket plan went from moderately novel to aggressively controlling the more you explained it. Are you going to have a security guard tackle Aunt Joan, if she gets out of her chair with a glass of Chard in her hand? Weird wedding, better control the food intake too. You don't want your obese family member to get too much food. Your title is misleading. It's OK to have an open, not to have an open bar at the wedding, but these kind of restrictions are insane, and the only people that called her not an asshole were people who identified as Alcoholics, which were kind of interesting. They all said your system for control is never going to work. I'm an alcoholic. I would bring my own flask. I would drink beforehand, you know, the things that you hope to avoid. Unfortunately, my disease is going to cause me to undermine and in ways that you'll never anticipate or predict.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Host: Michael:

So you know, go with the with the two ticket system go with the dry system, but don't try to tell me where I can and can't drink or anything. There's ways around everything that you're trying to put forward and the more rules the harder will fight against it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really like that self identified Alcoholics response. That’s a really great response.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet as we find out things aren't just black or white, they're often more in the Gray.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I'll go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With truth is stranger than fiction, and this is so strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this was an interesting one. Sure. Thanks so much for. Bringing this on forward and I always take around for the bonus conversation like follow there.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah, I'll. I'll do it for you, Dan. Please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as Dan already said, stick around for the bonus conversation this time. It's going to be about food. I'll see you on the other side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation. So one of the things we are kind of talking about were quick things that you can do in. The kitchen we all love. Food, Dan, we've come over to your house and we've thoroughly enjoyed food at your house. And it's always kind of fun to see what kind of things you put forward, but I'm wondering and I'll ask Gayle this as well. You know, what are some things that you can put together at a moments notice like you're like, oh shit, I don't have a dinner plan. What's your go to dish that you could make?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, me first.

Host: Michael:

You first.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Little rice in a rice cooker cut up some tofu throw cut up some broccoli. Roast both of those things. Gochujang, which I have like an enormous supply of this stuff. Sesame oil, soy sauce, sugar boom. Amazing dinner. You have to wait for the rice to finish cooking. But the entire thing is like 5 minutes of preparation. Yeah, that's my go to meal. Ohh little peanuts. Some peanuts on sprinkled on top. That's my go to meal. I make that meal, I make that meal once a week.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Alright, it won't be going to dance for dinner.

Host: Michael:

And do you think the rice cooker is worth it? Because I don't believe we own a rice, I guess actually appreciate personally as a rice cooker, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. Rinse the rice a few times, throw it in the rice cooker, push a button, walk away. It comes out perfectly. I'm 100% behind the rice cooker. Use mine a few times a week.

Host: Michael:

Awesome. And Gayle, I should know this, but what is your go to?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, you absolutely know this, and I would say it's not as fast as dance. But really, when you shop these days, you can get some pre chopped vegetables. And so if we go that route and we open these bags of pre chopped vegetables. I always throw onion on there, on the sheet pan, throw it in the oven, roast the vegetables and I always have pesto on hand. And so Dan, I actually probably lifted this from your book. You would put pasta with it, but honestly, I threw garbanzo beans in and it's roasted vegetables, garbanzo beans and pesto. Sometimes, if I'm feeling really sassy, I'll put a soft cooked eggs on top. Like like a fried egg, but just where the yolk isn't set. Yeah, that’s dinner for me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go, 2 dinners under 10 minutes each. I think in prep time. Although this is a great time for both. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, there is. There is some, quite frankly, if you've got to pre chop the vegetables and you know maybe that goes out the window. But I think there are some ways to do it really efficiently and you know both of these are really nutritious and. Michael and I were having a conversation the other day where they talked about cuz you've identified as vegan. I used to say I'm flexitarian and I still will say that, but there was a there was a phrase that I sort of liked, which is having a diet accented with meat. So rather than being meat forward, it was sort of excellent with meat and so this is one of those vegetarian dishes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fully down.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in TuneIn again next week for another exciting am I the asshole to beat.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In the episode, Dr. MacBride and Dr. Kessler reference the VPP Gottman handout, here's a link to that.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Mike MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I don't know what to say other than I am joined by one of the finest psychologists I've ever had the privilege to work with, Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was going to say that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Noah, that I was one of. The finest psychologists I've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Had to work with. Sorry. I'm the second best in the office. I get it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no, I usually, I often tell people when referring them to you, cuz we do a lot of cross referral in our business not because we're trying to drum up business within the practice per say. But if you come in for individual therapy and then you need couples therapy or you come in for couples therapy and then you need individual. Therapy, one of the great things that a group practice is those practitioners have an easy opportunity to have conversations that will help bolster the bolster, therapeutic process. And so we do refer to one another. And sometimes people refer to us because they know that one person needs individual, and the couple also to be seen. They know that we'll have that advantage. And I usually tell people that she's like 15% to 20% better than me is what I typically tell people in all seriousness. And I think it's just because you're more organized and planful than I am.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So it's it's a good it's a good business to be in together. So there you go. There's our like I think. My business partner is terrific that we often start out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With so the mutual admiration club.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, let's move on from that. And Michael, you've got something for us this week, don't you?

Host: Michael:

I do. As always, I find something interesting for you and for anyone who's new to us out there. If you don't know what Amy of asshole is, in short, someone's going to post a scenario which I've gone out there and I found. And they've asked the reader who is the asshole here. And that's what hopefully Doctor Kessler and Dr. MacBride will help us to. German.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm going to jump in right here. I'm going to jump in right here for a second. I just realized something. This entire podcast was designed to give Michael plausible deniability for sitting around, surfing the Internet or surfing social media cuz you can always say, well, I'm doing research, honey. So this entire podcast was designed so that Michael, I don't think I'm disclosing.

Host: Michael:

Also.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Anything we don't want to close Gayle and Michael MacBride are are are married partners of each other. And I think this entire thing was designed so Michael could say I'm just in research, what do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Al. You know, I think there's probably some Paracas in that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, well done. Well done, there's some.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, I know. Right, see the only. Conversation that that's linked to.

Host: Michael:

Michael, please continue. Now that I have now that I have cast aspersions on you and I would say life is research as well, right? Like you acquire knowledge and information anyway. So also if you're new and you've stuck this far, you should know that at the very.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, well.

Host: Michael:

And of the after the credits, we also have a bonus conversation, which is often kind of fun as well. But anyway, for right now Gayle or Dan have not seen this. I haven't let them. Haven't tipped my hat to what we're going to talk about. I always like to see what happens when we give it to them cold. So today's headline.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There it's called like a good gazpacho.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Put that on a T-shirt. There's no such thing. As good as Pacho.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do agree with you. I don't really like the spot show, but all of a sudden, the moment that hit me, sorry. Guys.

Host: Michael:

Continue, please. All right, the headline this time is. Am I the asshole for not retaking the family photo? Since my daughter-in-law was not in it and no. OK, you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Got.

Host: Michael:

I mean, if you're new. I mean, sometimes they're really short.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Chances. They'll let the daughter-in-law to not be there, but this is going to be a really interesting conversation. And the other Doctor MacBride on this call knows why. So please continue.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Ohh there's there's something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan collected this, I think for a reason.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's something personal here.

Host: Michael:

Every, every couple of years, we get everyone together and do a giant family portrait. It's about 40 people. Our last one was in 2018 and we we decided to do this again. I organized the whole thing and everyone was told that small pictures will be done at four and the big picture is seen by small pictures. They just mean like the smaller.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Individual family group, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Families. So the bigger picture is at 5 afterwards. We get dinner this year. Is that my son and daughter-in-law were running late. It wasn't a big deal since it was just the small pictures they get here in time for the large picture. I asked everyone to be there on time. I called twice. If anyone is missing, everybody lined up and the photographer takes like 15 minutes of the big picture. Everyone is hungry and hurrying to get food. My daughter-in-law soon comes out. Asking about the picture, it is around 5:30. At this point, she told me she was in the bathroom fixing her hair. When the picture was taken, she asked me to round everybody up again to take the picture. I told her no, that she was late coming to the event and couldn't care enough to be actually on time for the photo. I'm not gathering everyone up again and paying the photographer an extra hour.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Can you be nicer about it? OK, I mean, like, we're just going to jump.

Host: Michael:

You're leaning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Into the asshole. You gotta give it time. No, he was he was doing fine up until there. Holy. Come on. Like sorry. No, no, please.

Host: Michael:

And then sometimes it's those subtle. I mean, in this case, not subtle at all. But like, sometimes you got to think about those word choices for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please, please continue. Absolutely.

Host: Michael:

Anyway, I'm not going to pay the photographer another hour. He was done and packed up at this. Right, this caused a huge argument between her and me. My son is demanding I get her in the picture and I told him to pay someone else to Photoshop her in. Am I the asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh wow. Yeah. I mean, we both have jumped on the fact that it's not the content of the disagreement, it's the process. How you present that, your dissent matters, how you how you respond to this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So often so and that is what we jumped on like our like as Michael's talking it's like no that's a pretty I mean photographers packed up, we paid for an hour you were not there we asked for you be there all of that like you're not an asshole. No, and then he throws in the like the what was that? There was something. You know what's interesting about this scale? I don't remember the words, but I totally but I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. But you always. Remember how you feel when someone speaks to you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I totally remember the tone of the words and the emotional response I had, and that's absolutely right. This is this is what causes so many arguments with couples. So many arguments with friends or family members. I only said this, but the tone and the emotion carried in that is what they're is what the person's responding to, not the words. Go ahead, Gayle. I'm. Sorry, I talked to him.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, no, just that. Like we don't remember verbatim. This is why I witnessed testimony is so problematic and why we see this show up as a common point of dissension and disagreement and couples work that we do. Is. I didn't say that. However, what is often missing is this is how I felt when I heard it, and maybe I can't regurgitate the words precisely, but I know how your words made me feel and we need to think about that really carefully when we communicate. And I do think very often. It's a stereotype for a reason. In law, daughter-in-law. You said he. I actually think this is a mother-in-law. I don't know if we have gender confirmation or if it matters, but this parent in law, daughter-in-law dynamic can be difficult and dicey at times. And so I think. It is probably wisest to proceed with direct and caring feedback, but being very thoughtful about how you coach this right because of that, that in law relationship Michael has handled second grade.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael's raising his hand, Michael.

Host: Michael:

I was just going to say the thing that made everybody cringe, myself included, as I was reading it, was she was late coming to the event and couldn't care enough to actually be on time for the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fair enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Photograph was that way. Yes.

Host: Michael:

That's fair enough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They've now offered the daughter-in-law an accusation. And we assume. That we know her, her mind set that she couldn't care enough. Clearly she cared enough. She wanted to do her hair. She wanted to look nice. What she failed to do well is be on time and fit those activities within the required time frame. I need you to be here by 5:00 for the big group picture.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so we've we've hit upon one really important interpersonal issue here that the you know people remember how you make them feel more than they remember the words you use and we'll hit upon a second one. Now assume positive intent like this, this parent in law, whoever it is assumed she couldn't be bothered to be here on time. What a negative. What a harsh negative assumption. Yeah, go ahead and jump. Jump in here. I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, well, I mean, it did this. This parenting law is riding the four Horsemen, just like rush out through this family event, right? I mean, that's one for me. This is not out to the government. Yep. Absolutely. It's the place where we start. I think when we work with couples very often, or at least I do, is let me introduce you to the four horsemen. There are a number of animals.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Shout out the Gottman. Where's my? My God.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So we talk about in therapy and the poorest when we start with because they really have, once you start catching them. And identifying them and inserting the antidotes, you start having more gentle, more productive conversation almost immediately. It's one of the highest yield kind of educational things that we can offer couples. And so in this parents and law communication, we have criticism and contempt and criticism and contempt often ride together. And often then you get a response of defensiveness. So now we've got three of the four we're just missing stonewalling, which I can see the daughter flipping that beautifully. Or daughter-in-law flipping that beauty. Really done here and walking away and going fine. I'm not doing this. I'm not talking. To you and Dan, you've got 4.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Right. We right we will put when I say we, I mean Michael we will put in in the show notes a link to our own handout on Gottman’s Four Horsemen. I, like I said, I said I said Michael, just writing down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Horsemen right there. And to be clear, we always nod to the Gottmans because they are the ones who developed this information. We have distilled it and used it over time and added our own examples. Absolutely credit where credit is due. This is historically gotten gotten.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

John, John and John and Julie Gottman have have done, or Julie and John Gottman have done a terrific job of of, of putting that together. And we we yeah, we we riff off it a bit. But those two like assuming positive intent here using soft startups instead of harsh. Having having a positive words like like, yeah, you know, I could totally see the situation where the parent in law is like, gosh, I am so sorry that we can't include you. The photographer is done for the day. We can't call everyone back. They've started eating. The kids have. Fuck, shut all up the food all over their faces. The parents have this. There's a thing over there. The photographers packed up like I can completely see how a a gentle like I am. So sorry. We can't include you here, but it just. It was impossible, would not have caused the fight. It wouldn't have been any different and we would be saying you're not the asshole for sure you're not the asshole. Because of that harshness and that negative assumption, that's what created the fight. That's the person. That's what this person is missing when they post it. It wasn't. It wasn't. It's not. Am I the asshole for not including my daughter-in-law. It's am I the asshole for being mean to her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I disagree a little bit with you in the sense of I don't, I don't think we know that that's the totality of the daughter in laws either.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

About it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Surely it is some significant portion, but I also think that sometimes in laws feel again that tenuousness in the relationship and am Important enough to include in your photo? Am I the one being not included? And because these photos are taken not just for your immediate family, but to share with the family at large? And feeling excluded is a really hard emotion to deal with, and so it may just simply be not only that she received the message in a harsh way, but essentially then isn't going to get the outcome, which is I'm going to be represented in this photo in any way, shape or form. Again, I think she did some things to stack that deck against her and that's difficult, but. She may still feel upset and angry to not have a photo of her included.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, sure. Then there may, and there may certainly be that history. And I can. I and I I'm I'm trying to like get in her shoes for a moment. Imagine like she's going ohh this picture is. Important we haven't done one in six years now. I'm really looking forward to this. I want to just right her making herself up and like. The phone goes you. Know on the counter and she's like, I wonder, like I'm not paying attention. My phone. I gotta get ready. Gotta be prepared for this. They're just doing the individual clothes. I want to get ready. They're like, coming outside, like, all excited. I'm getting this picture. And then everyone's, like, chowing down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ribs. I had ribs in my hand too, like ribs and in my head. They're having. They're having ribs and corn on the cob and potato salad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Garbrandt and going to come Matthew clock.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the kids already have, like, smears.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Chocolate ice cream.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And BBQ sauce on them and. Exactly. Exactly. So, like and then like, you know, they're they're they're they're that's that's the image I get and her like. But call everyone back. Hold him. Back. Really like like I I I get it Michael's got it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Michael, like I appreciate you calling on me. I'm the only one in the classroom, but thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yet the four recommended items.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Our classroom is lopsided. Two teachers and one pupil.

Host: Michael:

So we're we're not quite to the part where we talk about the Internet says, but two questions were brought up that were kind of interesting that I wanted to make sure that you guys had a chance to chat about. One was why didn't her son say anything, the husband to the daughter-in-law clearly knew she wasn't there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Thank you. Yeah, I had to load into reading it and I wanted to circle back, super mentioning it. He should have.

Host: Michael:

And that is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I didn't and the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Looked up for.

Host: Michael:

Her and the poster did come back and say I don't know that that was one of the few things that she clarified is I don't know, and it does seem like it was a mother who is the poster since you had mentioned that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, OK alright.

Host: Michael:

The other one was people mentioning that it sounds like potentially their relationship between the mother and daughter-in-law has issues. In the past. This probably isn't the first thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is not the first disagreement and the nor the first time this daughter-in-law feels probably dissed and unimportant to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and that could certainly that could certainly play into this quite a bit. And I get I get absolutely see if there is that if there is that history that's creating a little bit more of that conflict.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We we don't know. We're always judging these in a vacuum, which is why we try to, like, disclaim the hell out of things. Like, we're not making judgments based on a whole lot of knowledge here. We're making justice on judgments on what the person chooses to say and what the Internet asks them. And then they clarify, which in this case, it sounds like not much. So I do want to see, I would. I would like to sit down and go. What is your history year that might have led to this particular set of decisions? I also think there's so many opportunities for them to have been nice to each other in this situation and apologetic and. And you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So let's go back though, because Michael brings up or reminds us of an important point. Here is the daughter-in-law was the only one missing, and so nobody went. Hey, and I'm going to make up a name. Where's Sarah? Where is she? Is she here? Right, or the OR her husband, in this case, going. Wait, my wife's not here. Like, where is the advocacy for this woman? To say you know what, she's going to be 15 more minutes getting her hair done, because then we could have maybe even prevented the problem and maybe the outcome would have been the same. I mean, maybe it's Nope, we got the photo until 5:30 and we gotta get going. If there's not hearing her. It's not done too bad, but I don't like that happen. Nobody stuck up for her while she was not present and that really was ideally her husband's job to say, hey, my partner is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not here. That's fair. That's that's that's that's that's that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And there's job to be there on time I've deemed or.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's really fair. Sarah, I don't know why no, that is, that is really fair. I'm. I'm going to. I'm going to. I'm going to run with with, with, with, with the, with the Sarah naming here and say. Yeah, it seems quite reasonable to say for someone. Again, I, I and I, I would also nominate her. Her her husband to to say, hey, Sarah's not here. Can we please track her down so that she can be in this picture? Because I really don't want her to be excluded from this picture and that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Well, this picture is not complete without.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Her right. That's powerfully unfortunate that that, that no one did that. And I agree. I want to look into. I want. To know more about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That right, and I think it's strange stranger still because typically in these kinds of photos, you stand near your spouse so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A number of these pictures you absolutely do. You're like, OK, you, you, you move over here. And can you. You stand out. Hey Susan, go stand next to go stand next to Jimmy over there like and. And then Susan goes over and stands next to Jim cuz no one calls him Jimmy except for the people have known him since he was a little kid and he gets a little annoyed. Like why are you calling me Jimmy? I've been Jim since I was 12 and I'm a 40.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

43 year old grown ass man. Thank you very much. But they go, hey, go stand next to Jimmy and Susan, like, rolls her eyes a little bit and go stand next stands next to her husband Jim. And where is Jim in this? And where is everyone going? Hey, Susan's not here to stand. Next.

Host: Michael:

To Jimmy, maybe one of those things of home alone, right? Although less chaos. Because there's only there's no, there's not multiple vehicles. And so, I would nominate, said Jim. I would. I was with Kevin maybe as a, as a name for the husband here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And the neighbor didn't take him back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, I wanted to be able to riff on the Jimmy Jim. Thing so Kevin doesn't work. Sorry.

Host: Michael:

Gotcha. Gotcha. And as I mean, part of my family gathers and does a very large photo every year and this is and I put in. No, no, it's there's only 40 people here. So it's not. You're losing that many.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is this our bonus conversation? Ohh no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There's only 40 because wait. Well, like Michael, we need to give some context here in the big family photo, and it's a big family photo. It's 80 to 100 of your closest family family members in a photo organized, sometimes in matching. T-shirts. For a moment in time, but it is scheduled and you show up. And quite frankly, if you're not there, you don't know, because in this particular photo this is one time where you don't necessarily get next to your spouse, you just get a seat because otherwise it's too big and it's too much chaos. But in a forty person, you absolutely find your spouse. You make sure your kids are present and you smile for the camera and you get her done. And we've done this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, no, that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Before they've done this. Shit show before. This is not a new rodeo for this family. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

It might be a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

New rodeo for the daughter-in-law. I mean, that's one thing we don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, she felt like she was. And she had been in it before. It was a really important part. To do it again, I thought.

Host: Michael:

I have to have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

New daughter-in-law, right? She's not the new daughter-in-law. I rolling back to the can. We should we answer the question now? Sure. Yeah. So not the asshole for not including her. But totally the asshole for making negative assumptions. Being harsh with her and unkind when you had an opportunity to be sympathetic and caring totally. So the original question is. Am I the asshole for not calling ever? The back? No, but that's the wrong question. I, but she's totally the asshole for the way in which she presented her response. And the way she made her daughter-in-law. Feel OK, what do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I absolutely agree with a small addition. So I think again, the original question is, am I the alcohol for not for not calling everybody back? Nope, you're paying by the hour and maybe there was a point at which we negotiate with the photographer, but that Dimes on you. Something too big a conversation in that chair. That moment I think you are an asshole for how you presented this and I sort of imagine this unfortunate world where the chaos of the photos and the group photo and the dinner and all of that left you justifying the bad behavior. I was overwhelmed and stressed and I snapped. But that's not OK. Not it. It may be the reason it happened, but it is not an excuse, right and it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. All right, Michael, with the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

It's it's another very interesting one to me because it was very universally you're not the asshole. And a lot of people missed the nuances that you guys picked up on which I, which I always appreciate you guys.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's where psychology. Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know to say we are trained at. This we we are.

Host: Michael:

And don't say sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We are trained professionals at nuances like, but here's like honestly like this is the sort of thing that comes to us and we we make light of this right now. But this is the sort of issue that comes to us all the time.

Host: Michael:

One of the things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

People get caught. On the wrong question, am I the asshole for this? No. But the way you reacted made that person feel. Terrible. And the way I just remember the, I'm just going to talk about myself here again. So, like, early on, I totally forgot the word she said. But I remembered the emotional response and. And, you know, Gayle, you called that out so nicely in talking about the way we respond to people. This is the new ones that people miss when they're having relationship. Struggles.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sorry, Michael, please. Continue.

Host: Michael:

OK, it was interesting. The number of photographers that weighed in as on comments here that they all said this is 100% on the daughter-in-law she knew when and what was happening wasn't there. This is exactly what I tell my clients all the time. Usually wedding clients during family formals someone is missing then that is on them. They were told where to be. I only have so much time and there's only so much coordination I can handle. There were a number of people who weighed in saying like somebody used to do the family photos. Now I do it and this is a nightmare. Every year somebody. Frequently gets. Left out or something happens and we always try to redo these and it is a mess and there's a lack of gratitude for the work that goes into organizing. And so I think your point is a good one about the and this case. The mother-in-law or the son's mother. However, I think about her probably feeling stressed and. Worn and unappreciated in the situation for having paid for the photographer and organizing this and all this stuff, the one kind of outlier got voted down an awful lot, but they still had four positive votes, so they're still they're still above water, and this was the one I probably most closely related to, which was. Everybody sucks here. How did your son not realize his wife was missing and why didn't he speak up? It's still the daughter in law's responsibility to not fix her hair for 15 minutes straight when they're already late. I don't know the history between you and your daughter-in-law, but the first reason you used was because you decided she didn't care to be there. Everybody sucks here. I'm sorry. You all need to do some work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I think I think I'm going to go. I think I'm going to go with the with, with downvoted guys response. I think it's perfect I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That response? Yeah, it it really nailed all of the elements that we've been talking about and really put responsibility in the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's absolutely perfect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right court here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, that's a perfect response. Everyone sucks here except the photographer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Exactly. I mean, I love it. I had a I had a thought as we as my goal was reading through that, and so I just want to roll back a moment. The nightmare that is being the photographer and our.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, no, you you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Our intro, outro, voice over talent, her. She's a family member for us and her mother. For years. When I joined the family was that person who coordinated 16 different cameras to take this massive picture of this family. And I remember the year she was like, you know what, I'm just done. It's too stressful. And so, Cory, for all of the. Family photos that you took for all of. Those years, I. Just want to say shout out and say thank you.

Host: Michael:

Absolutely. And they'll say I have not been in all those family photos, despite the fact that I was there. I mean, sometimes I was young and stupid and wandering off, and other times I was a teenager and angsty and didn't want to be part of it. And sometimes you just missed it because you're a parent and you're busy with your kid. And oops, sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And that's just the reality of what happens. You can't be in every photo all the time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And every year, there's someone running across the grass and like sliding into home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I really I do. I really like that everyone sucks here response. I think that's I think that's the perfect response to this and for all the reasons cited. So shout out to downvoted guy for getting for getting it right. Even though the Internet shit on him for getting it right. Wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank. You both again for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet. Terms remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, I often make a comment about how truth is stranger than fiction, but this isn't strange. This is really common, and we've all experienced some version of this. This is just a human place to be, and let's just be kind to each other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's beautifully said. Really really this is, and I often comment about this like so many of our interpersonal conflicts could be resolved by a really nice conversation and a caring conversation. And this is an opportunity, miss to solve number there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And now stick around for our bonus conversation. Or is that the thing Michael's supposed to say? I never remember these things.

Host: Michael:

Please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms with neighbors and friends. And like Dan said, stick around for that bonus conversation. I'm not sure what will be, but see you on the other side of the credits and we'll find out.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised here is that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So my I've got a crutch in therapy. I have a beverage in my hand at all times. It's usually a cup of coffee up until a certain time of day, and then it's one. But I like during the pandemic. I like when we were doing therapy with masks on. Like I couldn't take it down it, and I found myself like, agitated all the time that he didn't have this crutch of being able to reach out and pause and think thought. Why? Said my copy Gayle, do you have a crutch like that? Something that you like, have that you feel like the need that's extraneous to the moment that you feel the need to have with you during therapy?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Session like Nope, that was a great question I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Which is, by the way, how people answer when they. Have no clue as to what to say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Am I maybe vamping for a little bit of time?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think it might be damn thing. I'm just wondering like is there something that you feel the need to have present in order to do a good job even though it's? Not technically necessary for therapy. No, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think for. Me, I tend to be one of those listeners that wants to be doing something while I listen. So I tell people I listen a little better with my hands, right? So I like, I've got an acupressure ring that I might fidget with or something like that. I tend to do it more on camera than in front of people because I think people might. And that to be distracting and rude. So I do have a mug that I will sometimes hold. So that's obviously that's got kind of a mindful path on it. And I might I might kind of just trace that as I'm listening to. Someone, but not to do therapy. Better. Honestly. Sometimes my beverage or something else is more as I think it's treat it more like a prompt is not to give me time to think so much as to create a moment of emphasis where I might just. Vamp up and play up a moment of taking, taking a sip of something and then looking at scance at something just because people read those numbers. Sprite and internalize it and it allows me to kind of exaggerate a reaction. I'm not one of those therapists that tries to do this absolute blank slate. I have no reaction. I think I started to try to do that in Graduate School and I had a wonderful mentor who basically said you are a human in the room. You have emotions and you have reactions. Go ahead and allow those to be present as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. They and it's funny because at least back when I was in grad school as well. And I went to grad school in the early 90s, that was still sort of the, the, the, the, the formula or the recommendation like, don't. Show yourself the Tabula rasa. Be a blank slate for your client, and that's part of the old Freudian kind of projection and such. But I have this transference and I have to say that like I was never very good at that either. Yeah. And I think that one of the complaints that I sometimes hear, like when people talk about, like, I never knew what my last therapist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thinking I never know what was going on, like they didn't give me enough. Feedback and the Gayle, you and I both are those therapists who are are are happy to give our feedback, not a judgmental manner, but like also not to mask who we are as people because that matters people people choose a therapist because of that comfort level.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I mean, I think people, people have said I, you know, I feel like you're really real and they appreciate having a conversation with someone where they get something back. There's some bounce back there as opposed to, you know, if you hit a dead ball into a wall and goes and it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just drops, right? They're they're often not looking for that. So I think that humanity and. My willingness to be who I am coming through in the room is honestly one of my. Greatest strengths so I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think give you a great answer. I guess I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't know. No, that's perfect. Wonderful. Thank you. There you go. All right.

Host: Michael:

Anthony freckleton. Yeah. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. TuneIn again next year next year. Wow. Here. Wow.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're not taking medically yet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're going on hiatus, no?

Host: Michael:

Next week this is. A weekly podcast, not an annual one. That'd be weird.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Got it. So that would be very boring.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And then next. Week for another am I the asshole debate?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In the episode, Dan references this article on Parade Magazine about children who move during their childhood.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and I am joined by my partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler. I'm excited to have this conversation with you again today these. Are fun.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And as I've been introduced, I'm, I'm back Kessler, a clinical clinical. Ologist and part of the practice of Veritas psychology partners with Doctor MacBride. And this is like the highlight of my week in many ways, sitting down and answering Michael's question about who's the asshole. So, Michael, what interesting thing do you have for us today?

Host: Michael:

For sure. Well, welcome both of you and. And this is definitely my highlights as well. I love being able to put you on the spot and see what you come up with and you always have. A delightful feedback. So for anybody who's new out there is new out there and if you don't know what a my asshole is, in short, someone on the Internet posts this scenario and ask readers. Who's the asshole? Here, and that's what we're going to help determine. Now we have DE identified the posts. So they're a little more vague and we just tried to be a little more discrete. So also if you're new, you should know stick around through the end after the credits, we always have a bonus conversation and those are. Kind of fun. So, but right now, neither Gayle or Dan. Have seen or read this? Just before and. So let's go. This one kind of made me laugh. But anyway, and like some of the other ones, I feel like even though this is a hyper specific situation, I like how it applies to other topics. So anyway, the ad line is, am I the asshole for refusing to give a doughnut to a kid at? A party? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Host: Michael:

Controversy. Excellent. So the rest of the post is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe go ahead. Yeah, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Did you say? I would not give Michelle Child a Donna without her permit. I would be an asshole if I fed her child a. Donut without her permission. Am I wrong?

Host: Michael:

I would always ask, but you'll see this scenario.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're not. You're not, you're not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're not? No, you're you're not. You're not wrong, but there's. I think there's more to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It than that there probably is. You tend to tend to be a little bit longer than just the headline.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We should, we should hear the rest of it, because I'm thinking if the mom, if the, if, the if the mom and mom and or dad is OK with it, then yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You are. We should probably get that detail.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let's hear the story. Michael, please take us. Take it away.

Host: Michael:

Sure. So it says. I can't believe I'm posting this here, but here we are. I have a mixed group of friends and some are saying I was wrong. So I decided to let you decide. My husband I were invited to a birthday party. We asked if we could bring anything, and the host said not needed, but we could if we wanted to. Since I don't like showing up empty handed, I thought it'd be nice to purchase some bouquet boutique doughnuts. Sorry a little different than a bouquet boutique doughnut for my artisanal doughnut shop near us. We got a bunch of doughnuts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's going to.

Host: Michael:

And one gluten free donut for my husband who can't have gluten side note at no one at the party has any gluten issue. We knew these people very well, we. Got to the. Party set the donut down and immediately this kid and his mom decided to come over because in her words, these are the best Donuts in town. Wow. Thanks for bringing them. They're very appreciative. I open up the box and immediately the kid throws his hands on the gluten free one. I kindly say sorry. I'm saving that for my husband.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

You can't have gluten. I picked the doughnut out and set it aside and proceed to tell him all the other wonderful flavors and options that he has available. Cookies and cream. Nutella doughnuts galore. The kid immediately starts crying because he wants to. And his mom starts ripping into me and yelling at me for not just giving him the doughnut. She proceeds to make a big scene about it. An argument ensues about how he wouldn't give him the gluten free doughnut. So the question is, am I the asshole for holding back the gluten free doughnut from the child? No episode over? No. OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So wow, this is this is really sticky. No pun intended, I guess from the doughnut, but I have really sort of mixed thoughts here. I mean one is this is a grown ass man who doesn't probably need a doughnut. We could have come up with lots of other other ways to handle this. The straight up no for the. Child. And yet I'm a big believer in children need to be told no sometimes and as a parent we help hold those lines. So I have lots of conflicted thoughts. You don't, Dan, you seem very. Tell me about yourself.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not. I'm not conflicted at all. Well, let me ask. I'm going to ask a question that no matter what you answer, it's not going to change my position. I don't think. But how old is the child here? We don't know. Do we know how the child is Michael?

Host: Michael:

Sorry I'm I'm looking. I was reading through the comments.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But you know. I'm asking the question, but actually I don't know that I care how the child is because I agree with what you're saying, Gayle. Kids, it it's OK to say no to kids once in a while. And in fact they they they need to know and if and if someone has a specific, even if it's the two year old is not going to grasp the reasoning.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or it like it was it and my father is O2 year old. Not going to understand. But still like we can say. You know, and if there's something that was purchased for someone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

asshole. When they're given no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If someone yes. And if someone is is has a gluten allergy or a religious prohibition around eating a specific food or whatever. Like if he just likes chocolate, it was the last chocolate like suck it up. Let the kid have the chocolate. But this is a specific purchase made. I'm just, I'm just. I'm not. I'm having a hard time seeing seeing it both ways. Gayle help me understand where you think I'm wrong so that I can shoot. That down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I because we're adults, we have the ability to, well, most of us we have the ability to inhibit our need to gratify immediately, like none of us needs a donut. So are we dying on a hill of a doughnut? Like to some extent. I mean, what I'd love here is that this this wife is holding firm on something that is a need for her husband. This gluten allergy she's holding. Term, I would in my massage facts of the world the husband comes in and says don't worry about it. Like you know, no big deal and then she would maybe loosen up. I think if it were her donut ideally again maybe she would like, OK, because as adults we don't need these Donuts. So I don't love that we are holding on like white knuckling onto this. Donna, it's a doughnut, people and I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Know I see what you're saying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're you're apparently the Hostess. Last the kid was seven, OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're arguing? You cannot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So now that does actually shift me a little bit 7. The host held up a sign and told us that the child was seven years old and you know, and I don't really. I really dislike how the parent of the seven-year old addressed the issue, I mean and she went bonkers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How old is how old the kid? I'm sorry. Heaven, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Along with the kid over again. A doughnut? Nope. There are other choices.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Could we split it like there are so many other ways, but you don't call your friend out? Especially it sounds like a close relationship. We know these people very well as what the poster said, this seems overblown. Someone was hungry. Someone was absolutely angry when this when this went down.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm I'm imagining like my wife and I typically a vegan diet, but I'm far more flexible with things. And if I don't if I don't? Like what's vegan? I'll, I'll. I'll just eat. You know, eggs, dairy, whatever. But she's really specific about it. And if we went to a doughnut place and I bought a dozen doughnuts and it's specifically bought a vegan donut for her. Maybe she didn't even necessarily want it because she's not a big donut fan and a kid. A7 year old kid reached part of, like, you know what? That's a vegan donut. It's a special for her dietary needs. You know and if the parent like pitch to fit, I'd be like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dude, really. Remember the kid pitches the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but the parent. But then the that, that's fine. The kids going to pitch. If it's like I'm. I'm fine with the seven-year old being 7 and being like, no, I wanted that. Don't know. Because the thing about it once you say no, then that don't becomes the most important thing in the world. Have to pay. No problem with the seven-year old pitching a fit at that point I have a problem with the parent being upset. Like if someone said to me your 7 year old. That have that doughnut. It's the gluten free one or the OR the vegan one. Or the, you know, the one without peanuts, cause they'll die. Whatever, even if it's a minor thing. Not not dying is minor. But even if they, even if it were a relatively minor thing. Like he really likes like strawberry cream filled. I bought that one especially for him. Like or her. I might even in that situation be like that's OK, like even if there wasn't a good reason, like gluten allergy or peanut allergy or dietary constraint, I think it's OK to say no to. A7 year old. You can't have that one you have any of these others for any. I'm OK with almost any reason for that. Like I think I'm just, I'm not OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here I think you've you've definitely moved me. So you did say you were going to shoot it down. I appreciate that. I think that that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just, I would have liked to see the doughnut bringing poster. See some flexibility. But but it is such a soft like if I can massage the facts maybe. But the reality is you're right she had.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not that. Wasn't open to hearing. Arguments because you've moved me on some of these.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Every right to say this is the. This is the dough that my my husband selected, and maybe it's just the special cinnamon twist, something that he loves and it doesn't matter. This one is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Four. I'll call him Mike, right. This is for Mike. You can have your choice of any of the others. No. At that point, you're right. I think I would start holding that line just because now the seven-year old needs someone to hold the line.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I have. Yeah, we can. We can get caught up in whether or not it's because of the gluten sensitivity or not, but really I am OK with saying this was a special thing I got just for this person and at age 7 that messaging is is OK to send and it sounds like at least her own description of her reaction was that it was a very gentle response. I mean we we we we've been in social events together back when our kids were about that age and I recall times, I can't recall exactly. I was like, no, that's not that's not for you or that's not for now or that's not for this or not. No you can't have that and it's like all right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know well and yeah. Yeah. And it's OK. I'm I'm thinking back. Even just recently, we got together with extended family and I had an opportunity to tell my nieces and nephews now. And you know what? It went well. No, since they might have the Peach rings until you clean up the front yard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know what their answer was? OK. Yeah. No, it's. Fine. No, it's fine people. No, no one is going to get hurt when we set some boundaries with kids, they need to be. Obviously, that's overstated. That's hyperbole. Of course no can hurt. But in this case, no harm was created in the middle of the donut.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In this case, in this case, no. No harm has occurred and you know you're right. Husband didn't need. He's a grown ass man. He doesn't need a. He doesn't need a doughnut. And at the same time, I just. I'm I want to be there cause some of these situations almost like my reaction was my thought was who would react that way. Yeah. Like I don't even understand the reaction. Like maybe we're not getting the full story here because I can't imagine a situation in which you said no to my 7 year old when you were hosting a gathering. And even if it was about something that I thought was not a big deal, like you decided that the Cherries were only for the adults, they were, you know, $8 a pound. Hopefully you didn't bite down pound and you just you wanted them special for the for the girls to have a couple of them after their meal you spend and you rather not the kids like you know or whatever reason. And you said no I've been. Even if I thought you should have been like, all right, that's her cake. Like I can't. I'm having trouble finding the scenario that gets me mad. Here has the don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and. And then I just realized something, as you were saying this, yes, the husband doesn't need the donut, but if he's gluten free, it may mean that he's not having the birthday cake. So this may be the only sweet treat he gets at the party. So now he's more in the camp of, like, well, his don't, man.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, he's gluten free. You can't have that cake because the cake.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Free if it is in problems.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. And that kid is going to have cake and doughnuts and. And we need to let kids know. And that parent needed to have lent their parenting power to the poster. I really have been shifted. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No and 90. Dan, so where did the? That fall on this so Michael, because we both think that she's not an asshole and that the mom of the kid who went off on her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would think she thought. I don't know, that I might call her an asshole because I feel like I don't have enough. Because again, who does that? But she certainly not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. As as described in the post, I don't know what actually happened. It might have been that she was like you can't have that, you little ship bag and. And I'm going to and you know, but let's assume for the sake of argument that they went exactly as the original poster described it. The mom who went off. Or was an asshole.

Host: Michael:

And I'll say I actually truncated or abbreviated the post because it went on for quite a while there. Was a lot of. Detail the mom eventually grabs her kid and leaves the party because she's so upset. Like it really becomes like this. Even more ridiculous things. So it is one of those cases, one of the rare instances where the Internet is 100% unified, that the poster was not the asshole. There were a couple of interesting things that came up. I mean, one of the things that the mom of the seven-year old says. Is he's just a kid. And so a number of people on the Internet commented. You're not the asshole they quoted. He was just a kid. And then they're, like, so asshole what? Probably my favorite, not the asshole response was one that pretty succinctly then started another chain of conversation, which was. You're not that asshole. That kid is going to have to learn how to cope with life's disappointment sooner rather than later. The mother is not teaching appropriate coping strategies. She's doing a terrible disservice to her kids. Kids also benefit from being parented by other adults and learning that the world is not just their parents perspective. Yeah. Also depriving your husband of the donut. Settle the matter would have made you an asshole because it would have validated the mother's entitled attitude. And deprive your husband of a treat at the party that everybody, when everybody else had one, and he couldn't have because of his gluten allergy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, that's really thoughtful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, this may be a bit of a stretch, but I'm going to plug an article that was in Trade magazine recently only, just like I quoted in in it about moving and whether or not there are benefits to a person. Later in life of a move earlier, and we all. Agree that like moving is like difficult and challenging and creates hardship. And there's other research that increase the risk of depression and at the same time their benefits to having to learn how to meet new people and their benefits to having to learn how to how to how to cope with challenges in life and their benefits to being told no. And I think about the, the, the Alexander books by Judith Viorst, which my colleague Dr. MacBride and I both love because they don't have happy endings. And sometimes you have a really terrible, awful, no good, very bad day. And that just happens. And so kids need to get knows. Kids need to have to vote. Not that we want to put our kids through intentional hardship. Not that we want to cause our kids pain or hurt or trauma ever. That's terrible. And kids need to hear. No, they need to get. They need to have limitations set. I'm babbling too long. Gayle, please take over.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, wrong, no, no. Is the natural consequence of moving to the world right. Sometimes we get told no and right the commenter is right. You know helping that child cope with those nose is is the parents job and responsibility. And I do love what they said about. Allowing your children to be parented by other parents, seeing the perspective of other parents and seeing the world through other lenses has been really good for my children and my standard line. When I show up to a family event or I hand my kid over to another parent for the night, is parent my child like you would yours? Because I expect that you. Are going to treat them in a way that I hope is just unfair, but I also hope that you will impart some new perspectives, some ways of thinking that I that I wouldn't bring and I've not been disappointed in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That right, and if they're, if they're we're always assuming that they're decent. Really great, great human beings and that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, of course I like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thing and we're talking about here like, like you're going to walk into a job and you're going to find that this boss is arbitrary, capricious, and a complete asshole. And now you have to figure out how to adapt to that terrible that really difficult situation. And I think that, you know, this, this, this need to experience some of these difficulties is. Really important to experience difficulties in a healthy, non harmful, non abusive, non traumatic way because we need to develop the skills of coping with change and the skills of coping with no and the skills of cope. With mild hardship, but I think it's important.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All I can here in my head is The Princess Bride. Like this full of disappointment. Get used to it. Exactly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like back pain, life is pain and it will tell you something. Yeah. It's it's it's so. I mean, this kid being told no in a way that was not cruel or mean. But what seemed to that 7 year old, extremely arbitrary. Sometimes they all arbitrarily says no to you and I wouldn't do it gratuitously. I would never, ever suggest someone gratuitously.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, just to create this but but to support the reality that sometimes you're going to get to know and sometimes things are going to kind of suck. And all right.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah, I will say that there were two kind of they all there was also this thread. I mean the thread about the parenting, other people, parenting kids was interesting and I'm glad you touched on that. They also said like here are some things you could have done differently. None of these. It doesn't make you an asshole that you didn't, but if you got that bag, that doughnut. Tag separately, so it would. Have been not included.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Allergy that would sort of make sense. Don't let that near the gluten yes donut.

Host: Michael:

And she did respond and say, you know, unfortunately, I was kind of in a rush. It was kind of a last minute thing. Things were tighter. Whatever. They just threw it all in the box. And then the other thought was that you could have potentially split or let the child have a bite of the donut. Not that you have to at all. I mean, you're absolutely right. No, it's perfectly fine. A lot of people wanted to know what the donut was. It was a blueberry crumble. And she said it did not have any special decoration or anything like that. That made it particularly attractive. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Even if it had again, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do. I do find the donut shop to be a little bit of an asshole here because they have gluten free doughnut that they put it with the gluten Donuts. Someone was feeling that is that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes, just no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is so you know, let's. Go back to the doughnut shop and say you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Gotta bag those separately. No, you're absolutely right. Because there are some folks who like I don't. I prefer to not eat gluten. I think it causes me some difficulties, like I'd rather I'd rather not. I'm making this dietary choice the way I do it with eating a largely vegan. But there are other people who like literally would get very ill and I'm with you on the donut shop should have put it differently because some people with gluten sensitivity get can get very sick from very small amounts and others just do it as a lifestyle choice. So there's that. Either way, the donut shop should have. Been better about that, yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Definitely. Well, thank you both for joining us and another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the. That remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Man, you cannot make this. Stuff up. Who would want to help?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This one, this one, this one kind of surprised me. Stick around though, I've got a. Question for Gayle.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share Veritas Views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And always stick around to the credits. Like Dan said, he's got a question for Gayle and we'll see. If that conversation goes.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So so you. And I both been doing this therapist gig for a couple of years now. I think more than 50 combined, maybe more than 60 combined, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, it depends on if you take training into account.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But go on, what thing do you fairly routinely say to people that makes? Yeah. Them go, huh? Thought about that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Before. So I think the thing that I often say to people that is surprising. To them is when I'm able to accurately reflect and guess at what their cognitive processes or their emotional states might be. It's really fascinating as a therapist when you've connected them empathically with your client to be able to truly make a good guess, and you watch your client go. How are you? In my brain right now. And it's usually around cognitive distortion, right? And how do you know that? I think that about myself. Well, because honestly, lots of people think that about themself. We look like I think sometimes we look like magicians or some, some some sort of trick up our sleeves to know this. But the reality is the trick is experience. And as you said, I've been doing this for over a combined combination of 50 years and the story and the narratives and people's heads are largely the same. We're not as different as we think. We're more similar. And honestly, that's I think validating and comforting to the clients we work with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I have, yeah. Oh yeah, I had this happen with couples sometimes where one of them will start saying like and they'll they'll they'll say, oh, we had this argument about them. Yes. And then you did this and then you did this, and then you did this and. Then you did. This, and they were like, how did you know all that? Like, that's the arguments always go and it's and that's we're here to fix and it it does give them some confidence that we can fix it I think and we're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh, you're flying my what?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Able. To able to do that, but yeah, it's it's not. It's as you mentioned. We see a lot of these things that happen. Fairly common responses to situations that folks don't realize are like you're not crazy. This is just stuff that oh, that's thank you. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When you're not alone. Right. A lot of this is what therapy is there to service. You know, this is not a lonely journey. And it is fixable and we can help.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I don't know. Well, thanks again, Michael. Looking forward to doing this again.

Host: Michael:

Sometime. Yeah. Thanks for tuning in. Tuning in next week for another AMI asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, I'm doctor Gayle MacBride, and I am really excited to be back with you, Dan. I've I've missed recording these with you. So welcome today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know what? It's been it's been a while and I'm looking and I'm looking forward as always to exploring who's the asshole and who's not the asshole and. And picking apart whatever conundrum are in intrepid post moderator. Yeah, there you go. Brings to us. So, Michael, what do you have for Doctor MacBride and myself.

Host: Michael:

Sure. Well, first of all, welcome both of you and anybody out there who's like. Wait a minute. Wait, what do you mean you have been religiously posting week by week? These podcasts, a little bit behind the curtain. We both took some time in June, and some of those things were prerecorded. But. Yeah, we're fresh and live now. So for any of the newbies out there who also are like, what is this podcast all about on the Internet, people post scenarios and they essentially ask who's the asshole here. And that's what we're going to hope to figure out. And also, if you're new, stick around through the end, we'll have a bonus conversation after the credits. And those are always entertaining. But neither Gayle. Or Dan know what post I'm going to ask him about. I haven't shared the. With them. So let's go. This is one that I found when we first started talking about doing this as a podcast. And I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, it's been in the hopper that long.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kind of. You held on to it.

Host: Michael:

I have because we started recording after it was relevant and you'll see it it's dated, but one of the things that I think works here in a lot of these scenarios is even though this is a very specific scenario, I think you can apply it to other kind of events. So great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A draw.

Host: Michael:

Anyway, this is what it is. Am I an asshole for assuming my baby could come to a Super Bowl party so that dates it in time? Right, the Super Bowl. But I was thinking like any other kind of events and we make assumptions and so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I'm already going with no but, but I guess we should together. Rest of it. Sure. I love judging books by their covers. So.

Host: Michael:

My wife and I, both in our 20s, got invited to a Super Bowl party yesterday. We have a 15 month old. I assumed the invite. Was for our kid as well. It was a text invite thing. This is happening at this time and place. No other details in my history of going to Super Bowl parties. They've always been a family friendly event, so I didn't think twice about bringing my kids to the buddy's house. We are both on the West Coast and it's over by 8:00 PM. So it's a daytime thing and not a late night thing like it would be on the East Coast. Apparently my kid was not invited and my buddy who hosted wasn't happy that we brought him over. We had a discussion that turned into argument and we left. He never mentioned no kids, but am I the asshole for assuming my child could?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is really interesting. I'm struggling a little bit because I want to understand more about how this 15 month old maybe disrupted the party that made this other person so cool about it. I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh 15 month olds are disrupted.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They, I mean they can be I. Suppose they are. But I’m trying to. I'm trying to imagine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe not your 15 month old, but all of my 15 months old.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So. So what happened? They cry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of course, they, they cry, they, they, they right and they poop in their.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You pick them up, you take them out of the room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Pants most other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. And you can see that. The parent at the event you take care of the baby's needs. Now I got it. Like, OK, so it's more mobile than and I am going back to my own time when I brought a baby to a Super Bowl party. But my memory is. I'm thinking about this was that baby was mostly in its car seat or someone's lap because it was probably.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Participants probably don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, only less than two months old. So maybe that's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wait, wait, wait. Michael has something to say? He fixed his hand.

Host: Michael:

I was going to say you you're hitting on something very important. Like the headline says my baby. But then everybody in the comments is like you didn't bring a baby. You brought a toddler, a baby you could hold or stay in a car seat or whatever. A toddler 15 month is mobile. So anyway, sorry. I just wanted to make sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You hit that but. I think there's I struggle a little bit because I am guessing this host does not have children and so does not understand the assumption that the 15 month old cannot watch itself. So you might want to then give the parents a heads up. This is an adult only like. I think the. Host of this event did a disservice to their friend by not being more explicit, saying hey, you're going to need to get a babysitter. I think that they. Should have told.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Them. Yeah, here's what I want to know. What was the host's complaint? Did they? Did they elaborate on what host complained about?

Host: Michael:

Yes, the toddler kept grabbing snacks and toddlers are not known for washing their hands, and they might. Touch on the things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And runny noses I suppose.

Host: Michael:

And so they were digging in the bowels of things and double dipping.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you know, being a toddler, curious, wandering around that kind of thing. Yeah, toddlers are toddlers are toddlers. They're going to, they're going to be disruptive 100%.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Going to be disrupt.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

100% I totally agree and I think that's not the issue here. Everybody knows the toddler's going to be disruptive. The parents know and the host knows it's the poor communication between these two friends. And then it sounds like it devolved. And then Michael, I don't know if there are more details about how that conversation devolved, cuz I'm assuming the host is like. Hey, you should have known you should have asked and the parent is like. Well, you should have said like right. And so now we're really just. Missing another opportunity to have you know the best assumption of someone that we care about, that we're friends with and to understand each other's position here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, this is where I jump in with my standard line about like 7 minutes into the. ROM com. Yeah, they just sat down and had a nice little talk about what they should or shouldn't do, what the roles are, what's going on. The entire thing is over roll credits and this is one of those many examples of times where like a just a brief conversation ahead of time and either one of them could have initiated the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Conversation and I think would have been perfectly appropriate to do so. I think each came into the situation with and a set of expectations that again.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We're just different, not wrong. And they didn't make those expectations explicit with each other. And in doing so, they probably began to harbor resentment as the friend. But the toddler starts to feel more and more uncomfortable because he's probably getting looks that are telling him, like, oh, you made the wrong decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In here and the host is like. My gosh, this toddlers everywhere and it's not and whatever. Like. So they're each, they're each probably ratcheting up as the evening goes. And I'm guessing their adult beverage involved which lowers inhibition and tolerance for these kinds of things. And it just goes off the rails without checking that expectation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. No, I mean, here's the thing. If if I'd been hosting an adults. Only party and someone brought a 15 month old, especially the Super Bowl Party with all of its stuff around that might that might annoy me. On the other hand. I'm and I feel like we haven't explored this enough for me to jump to this place, but I have to say I'm much, much more annoyed with the inviter than the invitee on this one. Mm-hmm. I mean, yes, 15 months old or 15 month olds are inherently active and disruptive and 100% will disrupt and and. But I gotta say, if I were like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I were invited to something I had 15 month old. It was a daytime thing. I would just like I and I would bring my kiddo. I wouldn't even think twice about it. Yeah, and if I, but if you want to host. An adult only party. The parameters of the party are on the host.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, 100 percent, 100%.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And and. So while I think that the attendee bears some responsibility, you're saying, hey, my, my my kid is going to be there. Like, I hope that's OK with you. Like, I would have made. I wouldn't even said. Is it OK. To bring it I was like, oh, yeah, I'm bringing the kid. I, you know, you know. But I I think it's incumbent much more on the to have said don't this is this is adults only we're drinking, we're swearing, we're throwing shit at the TV. This is going to be food everywhere. We just this is just not a great environment for a toddler. Would love to have you join us. If. You can find a babysitter during the Super Bowl.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yep. And I'm going to throw a little bit of a wrench because I agree with you. I agree with you, but let's think about this poster is a 20 something year old, right? Maybe even the 1st in his group to have children. And I have to say 20 something year olds, you know, stereotypical males are not known to be thoughtful party throwers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of course you didn't. I'm right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so now we have someone who's just maybe ignorant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hello, I'll own that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, so now, now this guy who's never had kids didn't think to set the parameter because he doesn't think about it, doesn't even hit his radar. Now I allow for the fact that he should have been kinder and more generous about the conversation afterwards. Like, so I should have. I should have thought to say this. Sorry dude, but I don't think that he naturally would have maybe come up with this and that massage facts of the scenario right where nobody else had said the guy, you know, 15 months old.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We've only hit one Super Bowl party with this baby, and they maybe even dipped out last year cuz baby was so young, so you know, so they just don't think about where that miss is going to happen. And I would like to see these two friends go. Aw, man, we're really learning something from this situation. And we're going to do it differently next time. Hey, you're almost 3 year old. Is not going to be. Is not going to be welcome to next year. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I I never, I never faced this early on because my cohort of friends at the time we like like there was there were like 6 couples. Like there's that seven couples, but six of them were pregnant at the same time. So like like everyone. Like like and we would remark about how last year's Super Bowl Party was so different than this year's Super Bowl Party, because this year there's like crawlers and some. And then this and that the and the thing and last year it was just like sitting around and you know so it was a very different. I remember that at that. But I didn't I didn't face it this way and and yeah like I get what you're saying like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like the 20 something young man is probably not thinking that. Oh, shit. This is going to be a thing. And but that's also in him to say Nah, I learned something. Yeah. If I want to have a grown up party, I should know that my friends are starting to have babies. I should, I should say that this is a grown up only party and I've been we've all been invited to parties in it so. On the thing like you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sure you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't tell me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Posted parties and I have clarified with you and your wife. Kid. Yeah, right. Just to make. Yeah, you know, right. And sometimes, yes. And sometimes no. I mean, we've we've gone to things together where we've shared the babysitter at the other house and gathered because kids weren't weren't appropriate. Think it's perfectly OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

100th time, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is that an adult only party? But I think when you do that when someone has kids involved, you do need to be really explicit and they go back to that Priya Parker book. I think we talked about it before the art of the gathering. Like you said, there's a really specific intention about who you invite for the purpose of the party. So if we're going to drink and swear and throw popcorn at the TV, that is not a place for a 15 month old, one might argue. Hey, said friend that brought the child should know this and you know his life is changing. So maybe he thought this party would change as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're you're. Yeah. You're you're being kinder to, to. To the, to the. The host that than that I might be, but I get it. I think I'm coming around to your position on this, cuz my first thought is this host is about. An asshole. And then the parents. Like. Yeah, they made a mistake that like, I'm more forgiving of them. But I'm. I'm. I'm kind of coming around to the initial error like I'm having I'm not so upset about the initial error. Anyones part?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I think he. Just felt maybe embarrassed. And that's hard emotion to sit with embarrassment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, I. I could see that and I think that and I totally see this this dude like, like trying to have this Super Bowl party and I've gone out of my way to get the like the, the, the Buffalo Wings and now the baby's smearing like like hot sauce everywhere and crying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All over the couch, which is probably babies.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All over the cow like and like and they dug your hands to the Cheetos. As like. Now there's Cheeto dust everywhere because they dug their hands to the Cheetos and they got that on their face. And then, you know, there and I have to move everything I OK, fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm sorry, 15 year olds are snot factories. I'm coming. Back to that. Ohh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, and. And everyone, what I would have really loved to have seen is everyone here, let's go back to to, to, to John and Julie Gottman. 'S. Assuming positive intent, everyone here, everyone, everyone here, just gone. Yeah, I should have asked. Yeah, I should have told you, like. Well, all right. And everyone could have had a laugh over it and just been like, that's where the ashless.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Comes in, is getting shitty. How dare you bring a 15 month old to my Super Bowl party? How dare you get mad at me about bringing my 15 month old you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And whiney.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Should have known like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That that detail on this post is missing is really, how did that argument go down? I mean, the question is, am I an asshole for bringing my 15 month old? I think we're at this place where we're going to we're going to make a ruling. And I'm going to say no, you maybe should have asked, maybe the host ideally would have said something. I don't think there are assholes in that question where we're jumping to and I think becomes a conversation between friends, even in a therapy setting. I mean, friend therapy has.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Kind of become a thing. You know, we don't really have codes for that, but, you know, friends, sometimes our our family and those relationships take a lot of work and we think.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm going to go off on a little bit of a side here for a moment. We sometimes think. That friendship stuff should happen organically and be sustained naturally. And then when there's a difficulty in the road, we give up when we move on, whereas we're willing to do family therapy to continue to make a family unit work well and repair relationships and those kinds of things. But friends are incredibly valuable in our life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Never do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So if we can have this idea of friend therapy to maintain or repair a ruptured relationship between friends, I would love to have these two guys in my office. And have the conversation about how that conflict went down, right. And that's where I think the potential as wholeness could show up, right is how did you approach your friend? Did you, did you assume the best intent? Did you were the drinks involved? Should we have just stepped away because we were? You know, I might asshole for arguing when I was drunk. Those kinds of questions will come up for me, but not inherently in bringing the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Yeah, I I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

15 month old.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to agree. I think that the if there's any absoluteness it's it's in the latter part of it. There were a couple both people didn't think row like all the what would have happened and how that would have been. I'm more I'm still more annoyed at like I'm not willing to call either one of them an assault for the initial mistake. I am willing though to say that they're both like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Leaning into asshole territory much more the inviter than the invitee in getting shitty at each other, right? But I also suspected it was. Dude, why did you bring your kid? This is an adult only thing. Like if it if it was that sort of a thing. But problem is we don't know how it actually came down. Yeah, like he might have said. Oh, gosh, I really wish I'd mentioned to you that this is an adults only thing. I'm really sorry I made that mistake and I didn't have things set up properly for you having a 15 month old and I should have talked to you about that and then the parent. All passed off. Then. They're the asshole. Like I. That's what we're missing here. Some of the. How did this get approached? And who escalated it? And but doesn't like. And being particularly kind here, OK.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So there's there's a couple of things I can add to kind. Of clarify 1. Unfortunately, the poster has not clarified a lot of things. The one thing that he did clarify is how the conversation went down, which was his friend pulled him in the room and said you're an asshole. For being 15. Month old. That was basically it. Yeah. All right, all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh OK. Right. No, no, no, no. Now, now, now.

Host: Michael:

So unfortunately that did not go well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. But I will say what he did right there is he called his friend out, but he did it in a separate room. He didn't do it in the room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So now that guy's. An asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

People of people I'm not agreeing with how he called them out, but if you're going to have a conversation like that, you absolutely do it quietly and privately. So I'm glad. You did that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that's fair. That's fair, quietly and privately, is certainly the way to do it. But man, I mean you learn from at that point you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just like. Yeah, like I, I could see myself going. Ohh. God, I really should have told him not to bring the kid.

Host: Michael:

Oh no, I'll say from. And very much so, even though they didn't clarify this, I mean it's pretty clear from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again.

Host: Michael:

A few things he did comment that his friend didn't have kids, so I think your point of. Being him probably being the first one to have kids in the friend group really messes up that dynamic. I mean, Gayle and I were the first to have children in our family, and there's just a it's just, it changes your mindset on things that nap times and all these things that do not occur to somebody who has never had a kid or hasn't been around them. You know, it just doesn't apply, you know, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

He probably didn't occur to him, but I guess since this is about the Super Bowl, I'm curious what happens if we shift it and we make it a a random party or hey, we're having a BBQ come on over. Or more formal, if we did a wedding and you get a wedding invite, where do you come down on whether the kids automatically invited or not?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Getting it. Yeah, I yeah. But wedding invitations. Any formal invitation? I put it 100% on the on the person to death to say who's invited. Although in in a wedding invitation, they always say so and so and so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so right? So you don't get to bring it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it it helps with you say and family and because that provides clarity that the children are invited. But I went to a wedding last spring and it was not clear. And so my first response was to the bride or the kids invited.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, of course.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course. And then I RSVPed for all four of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because I wasn't sure what kind of event and this happened to be an Indian wedding, so I knew it was going to last hours and hours and. Hours and I. Didn't know if this would be appropriate for my children to attend, as it turned out they were welcomed and everyone was happy to have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Them there, but you certainly bring in the cultural aspect of this. Because you know that kind of. And I originally was was on the side of, like, no, it's up to the person providing the invitation. But in in an invitation. And depending on the culture, children going to a wedding maybe like what everyone expects in other cultures, children go to the wedding. Yeah, like doesn't happen. And so I think I think everyone needs to be explicit and where they're not explicit. I love that. Asking is really really important, but they should. I think like I got it invited to it in the wedding, I guess was two years ago now and a family member's wedding. And it said on it this is a. So it's only. Wedding. OK, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Perfect, right. And then you went and just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Great. And we went and had it, you know, and I really believe it's it's it's on everyone's part to be as explicit as possible and where it's not explicit to explicit tize it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That I like that I've learned as an adult, ask the question right. If you're not certain, ask the question. There generally is no harm in asking, but there's harm in assuming and so I will tend to ask and I appreciate it when others ask to Michael's point earlier, what if it's just a BBQ?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Friends that I made through work have. A child think that child is 2 now and much younger than my 13 and 15 year old. So when we get together and we've done family things, the question is kids or no, right? Because it's not like when you and I gather and our kids are closer to age and hang out, this is maybe my kids kind of doing a babysitting role. Which they love. Little kids that would be. Line, but we could also see a world in which now let's just do couples and let's leave the two year old home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, this and and these are discussions that everyone should have. We're getting back to who to blame here. I'm still blaming the inviter more than the invite. Especially if you approach it like you're. You're an asshole to bring your kid, right? But. And so many, we're going to get back to this message over and over again. So many wasted opportunities are having conversations.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you mentioned John and Julie. Batman start with a softened start up. Hey man, I realized I didn't mention that. However I did sort of think that it was assumed that there were no kids like even that would be a more gentle way of approaching. Great. But you know, instead of, you're an.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

asshole. I think even more so. What he should have done is gone. Oh, man. Sucked up and didn't tell them. And like, gritted his teeth and just dealt with it the entire time. And then next party. This is the kids only part. This. This is an adults only party. I believe that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean that would have been ideal for sure. But if you're going to bring it up, you need to think about a harsh startup versus a softened startup and a harsh startup. You're an asshole bringing your kids. That's what that is. And it's never going to go anywhere. It's going to engender defensiveness. And then you have an argument on your hands. So, you know, a softened start up and taking responsibility. Oh, man, I wish I thought to tell you earlier, kids weren't really involved. So next time, let's just make sure that we talk about that ahead of time or something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, I think you're right. And I think my, my my last thought of ohh we should just not say anything and do it next time I think I'll be wrong because I totally see the person next time going. Ohh he's mad because I brought my kid and I think being more explicit about how yeah we had meant it to be an adult only thing and we and we and we'll make it more explicit in the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, you're totally fine to have brought your kiddo. You didn't know, and I. And if you see something in the future, it's just cause sometimes you want to have adults. Only things you can understand that these kinds of gentle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. That's taking responsibility. So we've got some good antidotes to those, those really necrotic processes or toxic processes when you have a disagreement. And so introducing antidotes like soft and startup and taking responsibility are huge. So just diffusing anything that gets tense.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. 100%.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, so the Internet was kind of all over the place on this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not surprising.

Host: Michael:

There were a lot of people who said you're the asshole. You shouldn't assume your child is not a Super Bowl party, is not a family friendly event. And then in that there are all these arguments cuz they're like I have never been to a Super Bowl party without kids and like and then they're like what Super Bowl parties are you going to? And they went back and forth and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

Clearly. They just live in different realities. I mean, I think, yeah, I think one of those things that you guys keep hitting on is like, I think both of them are just in a different place of their life and they just made assumptions based on where they're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Very different Super Bowl parties.

Host: Michael:

Our kid is part of our family and where we go, our kid goes and the other guy is like, I don't have kids. Why would a kid be in my house? This is bizarre. I never thought about this, you know, so there's that. There were no assholes here and all of them basically kind of pointed, like you said, like everybody kind of failed, but not in a malicious way. They weren't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Host: Michael:

Trying to trip anybody up and then everybody sucks. Here was the other version of that where it was like you did. You should have asked. You should have done this. And there's lots of finger pointing. Yeah. And the one that was my favorite side conversation. Then the. Because you're the asshole. You should never assume your child is invited, which then said OK, let's forget about kids. What about dogs? Every time I have a BBQ, friends bring dogs to the barbecue, and I didn't invite them. And then it made me think about like that. Like, if dogs are your world and you don't have kids and then you need someone to watch them anyway. So I don't know. It's. Spiraled all kinds of ways.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It did. It did and. I would agree you don't bring your dog unless it's explicitly, you know, you know your dog. Is invited. I'll bring. My cat. I know. I'm just thinking next time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The cat and the cat. With that I brought my cat. Should be he'll be. They'll be. They'll be fine. They just hide in the planned the BBQ all day.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know, I usually can't make this stuff up, but this felt really real. I really appreciate the opportunity to take apart something that just was a very human difference among Americans who enjoy Super Bowl.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Parties. There you go.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms, your neighbors and friends. Always, as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about whatever it is we're going to talk about today.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised here is that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Dan, I have a question for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You bet. Cause I have no idea what the bonus conversation is going to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. OK. So I'm wondering what is something that you often say to your client that surprises them?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Huh. I think one of the things that often comes up is the that you don't have to accept what's offered like people.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thanks more, I love this conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

People are always offering you things. They're offering you advice. They're offering you guilt. They're offering you shame or all sorts of other things. And. And we have the option of saying no with all sorts of things. And the way I do this in my office and you know. It's I just start handing people things you know, and it's my experience that whenever you reach out and hand something, someone something, they'll just. And they end up with at some point when I just keep handing them more and more shit in my office and they got stuff piled everywhere. They're like, why are you doing this? I'm like, why are you taking it? Do you want any of this? And they're like, no, I don't want any of it. Well, why'd you take it? Well, you gave it to me. Well, you know. And. They're like, oh, I don't have to accept the guilt that my mom or dad is offering me. I don't have to accept the. Anger that's being offered me. I don't have to. Like, I can make a different choice. And I think just making explicit that that we don't have to take what's offered to us, I think. And it seems really obvious. But it surprises folks and it sometimes even surprises me how often I accept what's. To me, when I'm offered guilt or when I'm offered some other emotion that I don't necessarily want and they go well, yes, I'll take this on and make it mine, and then we don't have to do that and we can be really, really clear. Like I don't. I'm. OK, with not taking.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for tuning in, tune-in next week for another am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

During the chat, Dan mentioned the urology episode of Ologies with Alie Ward: "Urology (CROTCH PARTS) with Dr. Fenwa Milhouse." Here's that link: https://www.alieward.com/ologies/urology

And to answer the question about ass or crotch, etiquette says: "always face the stage", which has translated into "the front". So, in the plane, you'd be looking at the cockpit. Therefore, your butt would be looking at your fellow seatmates. [In her 1922 book “Etiquette in Society, in Business, in Politics, and at Home,” Emily Post advised theatergoers to "always face the stage and press as close to the backs of the seats you are facing as you can.”]

And now for the Transcript:

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic dual psychologists.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas psychology partners.

Host: Michael:

Thank you for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I am really excited to have doctor Dan Kessler with me here today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm doctor Dan Kessler and I'm really excited to have doctor Dan Kessler here with me today to begin this process and also my and also his business partner Gayle MacBride, who is incredibly helpful when. Where I have a complex issue and I and I love that we're hosted by the most curious person I have ever met. Michael, do you have an Internet quandary for us today? I'm guessing you.

Host: Michael:

True. I appreciate the warm introduction as well. So for anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about here, we're going to talk about. My vessel which ensure. Somebody posts the scenario that happened to them in real life and says who's the asshole in this situation and that's what we're hoping to determine. Also, if you're new, stick around through the credits. We always have some bonus conversation and know Gayle has something cooked up that she's going to ask Dan about. So we'll see what happens there. But right now, neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this particular topic. Before or read it. Or any of those things so I'll just roll with it. The headline is, Am I the asshole for making my plane seat neighbor uncomfortable?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So the person that sat next to this.

Host: Michael:

Plane like airplane.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Individual on an air.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh plane seat plane seat neighbor. Oh oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're making him uncomfortable. Yeah. Comfortable enough. If you're doing it intentionally, hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I got confused. I got confused by the whole plane. You know, the English language is such a.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Such a conundrum. Yeah. I mean, plain and OK, so plane.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pardon. Yeah, got it.

Host: Michael:

Yes, that I should have spelled it for you though now. So this one says I am 45 year old male just got off a long flight, the kind where even the comfiest seats feel like torture racks. Now I'm a big dude. Not yet booked. Two seats level, but enough for plain seats to be absolute. Hell, book the window seat figure the extra. Extra space would help. There the flight attendant assigns a woman to the middle seat. Nice person. We exchanged greetings, no problem. Here's where things get tricky. Nature called a couple of times during the flight, and let's just say squeezing by in that cramped space is an exercise in contortionism at the best of times. The woman in the middle seat politely refused to get up whenever I needed to use the restroom, causing me to squeeze by her. The lady in the aisle seat was very accommodating and would get up anytime. I were the lady in the middle. Needed to get up. Now I get. It nobody wants. Some sweaty dude brushing past them, I tried my best to minimize contact. Literally sucked in my gut and held my breath like I was underwater. But even with all the contorting, there was some unavoidable brushing past at the end of the flight, the woman makes a passive aggressive comments about personal space and how uncomfortable I made her feel throughout the play. Honestly, I felt terrible. I didn't mean to make her feel that way, but what else was I supposed to do? Hold it for 8 hours. Ask her to physically get up. Since she repeatedly didn't get up and indicated I should squeeze. By I had no reason to think she was bothered by it, and I had the asshole for making her uncomfortable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, so this is gets back to that issue of mandrea that we've talked about intent and my initial brush with the with the clickbaity headline here was that there was some intent that this person was trying to make their seat mate uncomfortable, but there was all this offense. In fact the other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Give. Give our listeners. Yeah. Give our listeners a brief on a men's on men's Rea. As two former forensic psychologists go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And two forensic psychologists. You know, we often think about this concept of mens rea, which really is in legal terms, whether or not you had the forethought and planful nature for the something that you knew that what you were going to do would be would result in XYZ. So in this case. I had assumed that he had mens rea that he was planned fully, intentionally making his teammate uncomfortable as opposed to unintentionally so he did not have planful forethought in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That. Yeah, First off, there is an asshole here, all right? And the asshole is, and I just want to apologize. Yeah, the hassle here is the airline industry. They have progressively shrunken what they refer to as seat pitch, which is the distance between one seat and another seat to such an outrageously narrow proportion. That it really doesn't fit many humans and humans like we do come in a variety of sizes and you know, I don't want to shame this man for being a larger fellow. I’m kind of lucky. I'm five. I used to be 5857. These things happen. But even like putting my relatively not that big a person sized. Frame into an airplane seat can sometimes be hella uncomfortable, and there's there is unavoidable squeezing through and. And contact and I'm mad. I mean, I like, like, come on airlines, can you do a better job of having seats that are comfortable for people?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I think that it cuts into profits and you know, we can get into a whole diatribe of things, right? But that's why they've had to shrink. This is ultimately every little inch, well, every little inch allows them to squeeze.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Had to. I do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

More channel in and I think that's that's problematic. And so the day and age where we are lining pockets of this big businesses, that's what this was and interest stuff. But aside from that unavoidable factor at this point, I don't think that I mean again with lagging that Mens Rea this guy didn't intend.

Host: Michael:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But was aware of the outcome and what I appreciate in this original poster is that he is aware that his larger frame already maybe encroaches on the personal space of someone in these teeny tiny little seats, as a smaller framed woman, I have been in said seat. Felt like I needed to really pull in because someone was sitting next to me that I did not know it was larger than me and just took up more space and that's not and they're not intentionally trying to encroach in my space and you know, I remember a flight in particular where a larger guy was sitting next to me and as much as he was going to try to suck it in and be small on our relatively small. White. There was no way that even the two of us were going to. This without bumping shoulders and you know, I remember drinking my orange juice and my arm kind of locked at my side. And, you know, at one point the cup actually spilled ice on the other on the other person. And I felt terrible because there's just nothing you could do about that face, even if you are the most accommodating of seat mate. So to make a stabbing. Comment at the end is is really unkind and she had a part in that relationship to yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I think that's that's exactly right. We need to traveling, it can suck. And we're often crammed into spaces with lots of people. Sometimes we end up. You can't help, but if you've ever lived in a big city, I used to live in in DC is that biggest city. But I used to commute on the metro. Beautiful, clean, wonderful system. But during rush hour, physical contact between people in the metro. It was nearly unavoidable. It wasn't like, like you see, sometimes the Tokyo subway, where they're literally pushing people in. But there were times when there was, like, you were an unavoidably going to be pressed up against another human being. Like there was nothing you can. Do other than being packed in those tight spaces and airplanes are the same way, you can't always avoid contact with with your neighbor in the seat. You're not always going to be able to avoid bumping into someone going in here and there. You want to minimize that and be as respectful as you can, which at least by his description Opie has done, he went out of his. Way to try.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't you think up the seat like this is my territory and I will not. Move unless I. Have to go back honestly, in that situation, I'd have gotten up because I don't want big guy importing and climbing over me to get out. I was just gotten up. I don't understand why.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no. I yeah. I don't even.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't understand that decision.