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Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychology.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I'm really excited to be doing another one of these with Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As am I. So Michael, you've got a scenario for Doctor MacBride and I to pick apart. Let's, let's. Go.

Host: Michael:

Let's do it. First of all though.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Getting rolling. Actually, I just want and they're up. I'm so excited. We've done enough of these now that if you're listening and maybe you're new, you can binge a whole bunch of these all along. I love getting enough episodes of the podcast on, you know, kind of rolling so that I can just start burning through them. We're there. Dan, this is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. What do you have? We are officially binge worthy now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we're doing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Pretty great. All right, what do we have, Michael? What do we have out there right now, 1085?

Host: Michael:

Well, yeah. Well, this is our.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This week, but we won't air this one for a while. Yet I was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure.

Host: Michael:

Going to say, I think this is actually #14.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, excellent. So if you're listening to this, we have thirteen others. Get out there and listen.

Host: Michael:

If well, first of all, for anybody who, this is their first episode and they're like, what the hell is this? You might not know. What am I, an asshole is. And the simple explanation is a poster out there asks the question and simply says who is the asshole here? That's we're going to help determine if you're new. Also stick around through the credits. There's always a bonus conversation. But for now, neither Dan nor Gayle have heard this or read this before, and what's his?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I will just interject and say if you're an experienced listener, you might all say what the hell is this? But hopefully the answer is I'm using and something that I want to return.

Host: Michael:

So this post did a really good job, so some of the “am I the asshole” posts do a wonderful job of both embodying what the exact question is and also being attention grabbing in the title.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Excellent.

Host: Michael:

And this was one of those that, like it seems absurd, but it made me laugh. But it definitely caught my attention. So that's why that's why it's our topic for today, which is a my battle for telling my mom and dad that they have to get their noses pierced if they want to see my. Daughter again. What?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, I often immediately jump in with an answer, and this time I'm just going to be like I need more information.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is one of those. Now this is one of those ones where they, like, ask a really outrageous question. But then when you actually look at it like, oh, that's not. So crazy or?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I hope so. So Michael, enlighten us, please dealing the headline driving picture.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So there's a fair amount of there's a fair amount of content here. So I'll get through it as quick. I can, but my husband I traveled to Mexico to visit with this family. I am an American citizen. My mom and dad are not my mom and dad. Got my daughters, got my daughter's earrings for her birthday. My daughters ears are not pierced. She is only one year old. I told them that I would save them for her until. She was old. Enough to get her ears pierced. We left my daughter with my parents while we went to go meet up with some friends.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, I hear I know what's coming.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh no ohh no it. Got worse in my head. Like I know where this is going. Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Grandma and Grandpa Pierce in those years, aren't they don't, by the way, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. No. Yeah, we can. But why? We already know. But Grandma and Grandpa are being jerks. All right, continue, Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh alright. Please just let me go finish but ohh. Should that's the format of the show.

Host: Michael:

When we went back to pick up my daughter, my mom. Showed us that they didn't, that we didn't. Need to wait because they had already taken her to get her yours pierced as you determined. Yeah, I got my daughter and drag my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Host: Michael:

Been out of there before he lost his shit. We went back to our hotel. I am furious. My husband said that my parents are not allowed to spend time with my daughter alone again. Ever. I went further. I said I would not be bringing her or any other kids we might have down to Mexico to see my parents. We checked out three days early and went home on our way home. My parents were calling to see when we were coming over. Ignored all the calls and texts until we were back home in Phoenix. We took a couple of days to think things over and pull down. I finally called. And I asked them not to speak until I was done talking. I told them that my husband I are upset for them getting my baby's ears cursed without a permission. I told them that we want to come back home, but probably wouldn't be visiting for a while. They said. My sister and I both had ears pierced when we were babies and it didn't harm us, so they didn't see what the problem was. I said they're not changing their minds. They started getting everybody involved, including my grandmother, to call me saying I was being ridiculous. I talked with my husband we came up with a problem of compromise. We agreed that we would resume visits, but not alone time as long as they got their noses pierced. They both said we were being stupid and they're. Not going to do. I said no problem and hang up. So who's the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My gosh. Wow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For fuck’s sake. Oh my God.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is bad. You do not do this kind of thing without parental permission. I can't even imagine the place that they went unless they did the piercing on their own.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I. I'm just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is equally terrible, like. How can you do that without parental consent?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I mean well it I suspect if it was in, if it was in Mexico, rules are are often not. I know I don't know about your piercings. I've never pierced anything. I mean maybe, but we're not going to go there right now. I. I know that certainly pharmacies you can buy anything in Mexico and I suspect that there may not be as many rules around what you are not allowed to do in a piercing place of Grandma and Grandpa. Bring a kid in. But I don't know. I've never pierced anything in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I've I've never tried the pierce anything in in Mexico. I do have piercings, but I my memory is. I needed the parents permission because I was a minor. But that being said, I mean, OK, so aside like you have parents that have said no, we don't want this. Whatever this is for their child and grandma and Grandpa have decided to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mexico. No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Even armed with that information, go ahead and act. Opposite to that, and essentially attempts to get forgiveness because they couldn't get permission. I'm sure there are cultural aspects here that we're going to under appreciate because I don't. I've never been fully immersed in the Mexican culture, but I do think that was a wrong decision, flat out wrong and the justification that we did it when you were young. No harm, no. Well, is not rationale. That is not something that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean, that's clearly ridiculous. But I'm also like, like, come on, like, I'm a little annoyed at everyone here. Like, this is your solution. I mean, we're not going to bring the kids around you anymore. We're not going to. And you have to get your nose pierced first. Like, I'm going to like, I'm going to, like, violate.

Host: Michael:

Oh, there's somebody layers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Your bodily autonomy and demand that you do this, this, this thing that you don't want to do because you did to my kid like there are ways of resolving this that are better than that and that would just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh I totally agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, come on, mom. Is that mom? Who did that? Or dad who? Said that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mom.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But Michael's nodding mom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like just nodding things. Yeah. No, it's mom. Well, you know, husband came to it together, but I agree. That feels like a 5 year old solution to a problem here. We you're not going to say if you do that, that that is not reasonable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just like like. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean clearly. So I mean, clearly, grandma and Grandpa are way out of line doing this and regardless of their reasoning. I mean, I don't care what their reason is that, that the reason is well, you let me do it or you did. Like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't. I don't care. What their reasoning is they're out of line. Yes. Period.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think what's asking them to get the nose pierced really just made a bad. Situation worse. Not what we do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I mean. Well, the other the other piece here is that there's is that I am angry at these at these grandparents. I'm really angry at them. And if they were my kids grandparents, I would be furious with them for doing this and I would still want my children to have grandparents in their lives unless there's some big. Other thing that makes them not appropriate and I don't know that I dropped them off at their house for the weekend. At least not until I was really clear that we'd established, reestablished trust. But there’s I don't want. I think losing this relationship isn't to health necessarily a good thing either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now we've got so much black and white thinking going on here, it's almost as if they are saying, you know, we're just never going to leave her alone. Look, she's not going to be this age, I presume. I don't remember. Michael, if you said how old this child was. But it sounds like one or younger probably.

Host: Michael:

One, are you hungry?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so like for a really long time. You know, if you have older children, they can start to speak for themselves. Like, this dynamic is going to change. Let's not get to black and white about this. So and again, like peers, who knows or I'm not going to visit again. I mean this is black and white thinking just all over the place and it's not helpful. I totally respect though if the parents say hey.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You broke our trust and therefore you will not be the caretakers in charge of my child. Killed until such other time as we've reestablished this relationship and because you can't reestablish it if you're not visiting and working on it. So you effectively cut off any ability to rebuild and repair.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And that's and that's that's the unfortunate part here. Like again, unless parents have been really egregious about things in the past, I don't. I don't want my, I mean, my kids, grandparents to not be part of their life if they could be a really positive influence on them. And the more the more people who love their kids and. And do good by them. Like the better, right? Yeah. And if we're going to assume that the grandparents are not toxic. Yeah, they did something pretty awful. Let's not. Let's not. I mean, it's that it's not quite a other than that, Mrs. Lincoln. How was the play situation? But it's pretty shitty what they did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is 100%.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And it's a, it's a real frustration, but I've certainly seen this tension before in couples, and I'm sure, Gayle, you have too, where like Grandma and Grandpa are, like, we raised you. And we clearly did an OK job. So why are you telling us we can't do what we used to do? Cuz she's different now, grandma, like and no, you have to do it this way. And I understand that you don't like it. And that's not what you did. We're not. It's not an indictment of you as parents. This is the way we do it now. Yes, we don't. Whatever this comes up a lot. Around spanking kids, you know, for misbehaving.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do find that grandma and sometimes really have a hard time accepting that backseat role that they, you know, because they do feel like, well, I've been through it. I've done it. So therefore, you know, just trust me, it's fine. That, you know, we also underappreciate those, there's another parent involved that they didn't raise. They had nothing to do with, and times have changed. I mean I'm, I used to say to clients, you know, you need to be careful about the parenting advice that you receive and from whom you receive it. If they haven't had a baby in the last five years, you might want to think very critically about what information they're giving you because. I was astounded in the 2 1/2 years between my children. Even then, how much things had changed and. I thought I had it and. Build and there were things that were different. Car seats, in particular those recommendations changed so quickly, and maybe my kids just sat a bridge to that. But I was surprised and it became a point of just encouraging and empowering parents to say I don't have to take my parents advice. I don't even have to take my older siblings advice on how to parent. Because you know these these things that we want to consider for our children can change just that quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And if there's any area where people feel comfortable giving unsolicited. The advice it's parenting like everyone because everyone like like thinks well, I was a parent and I'm I didn't I you know I so I must have been good at it and I so the feedback I've got it is going to be right and that's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I will go so far as to say it's not even. I mean, yes, implicit advice, but also just criticism, right? And it's still like a baby name episode we were talking about that, you know, a few weeks back like you do you feel the right to weigh in here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And a we didn't ask you and B when when you did stick your nose and we told you no and you did it anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The other piece here is because I tell you I want to do it differently. You did does not mean that. I'm saying you're a bad parent or does not mean saying that I that that I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm saying you didn't do a good job we can disagree reasonably rationally kindly with with and not it's not like the end of the world if I disagree with my parents. About although like I couldn't really do that now parents aren't aren't with me anymore, but like if they were, I like when I did disagree with my mother. May her memory be her. Saying when I did disagree with my mother, like sometimes that was taken as a personal affront and I hope I'm better when I'm a grandparent. One day I hope I'm better at getting the feedback that my kids will undoubtedly give me, that I'm doing it wrong and I'm like Oh no, I'd and I could hear myself. I could even hear myself going. Well, that's the way I raised you so. It must have been right, like, oh, shit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The option.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If you're listening, kids, remind me. Of this, when I act. Dickish years down the road and tell you that. Yeah, I did it right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I've certainly disagreed with my parents and. And they've been a bit insistent and. Quite frankly, I. The response can't be a black and white, no. As you said, it's always best if there are more people around to love the kids. So maybe you adjust at what points you interact with someone to make it more comfortable. And workable, that's what we want at the end of the day, we don't want to just arbitrarily cut people out of someones life. And unless there's a real toxic toxicity to the relationship. Necessitates that that is an action of necessity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that certainly can happen, but that's but that's I and we're assuming here that that's not the case that, that these parents aren't toxic outside of this piece. And really we're talking about here is is I want you to respect my decisions around my parenting and you may not agree but it's still your job to follow. What I'm saying, because I'm we're the parents.

Host: Michael:

Let let me jump in really quick and build on what you just said then because that was something there was a a really lengthy in depth side conversation. In the comments, which are often my favorite, things like, you know, usually the usually the best joke is not the joke, it's in the comments. But in this case, like one of the side conversations was OK like the most glaring problem with the earring thing, as you said not to. And the grandparent did it and you will forever have a lasting memory of this thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Oh yes.

Host: Michael:

It's a permanent choice, obviously. You could let the holes close or whatever, but they said, OK, so let's walk it back. Like, what could your grant, what could your parents do like? OK, what if they let them have sugar and you said not to have sugar. And you know what? If you know, where is the line essentially where it. Problem. Some things are forgivable. Some things are not. You know, if you, if you had to say where that line is, what is that, you know, where is the grandparents? Where's the grandparents fund? You know, their ability to not be a parent and just kind.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, that's a big question.

Host: Michael:

Of yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's a good question, cause my own mother will feed my children cookies before a meal. It just drives me. Freaking wall. But you know what she will say, but I'm allowed to be grandma. And I think she's on the correct side of the line for it. I don't love it. Shouldn't do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was talking to this, this, this fellow adult who is a grandfather who is taking care of like 4. I forget the age of the kid. Four years old. The grandpa. Can I have such and such a candy? And he's like, no, you can't do that. Guess. And then he went. Wait, I'm grandpa now. Absolutely you can. And I went and got. The candy like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, that's fantastic. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, I mean I think it's I think we need to recognize that there is at least within within my cultural experience American cultural experience like there is some value to the, the grandparents spoiling the grandchild and the number of times the parents that people say like where were these people when I was being raised these first time. Super nice. Indulgent. Like where were you when I was growing up? When I like. You wouldn't have done any of this shit for me. Like, why you being so cool to my kid? And. And that's part of being a grandparent is is the opportunity to spoil your grandkids.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So like there are going to be these clashes hopefully about things that are not so boundary violations as this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Well, and I think the line is fuzzy at best. I have clients who have said, you know, I've let my I've had my parents take care of my kids. They don't put them on the nap schedule. They don't they or they have naps them when I don't want them. To nap or. You know those kinds of things they have gotten to the point where you know, I can't let my parent watch my child. Anymore because they're not respecting my wishes and I think the line is fuzzy because it's different for each of us. You know, people have definitive views around whether or not you smoke around their child or even have smoked in your car and then transport that child in your car at clients being really particular about that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And what a hard and. Well, by the way, I think everyone shitty here. I also want to be aware that the that that it's really hard to make that transition like I've heard. Would say to their children about their grandchildren, but they're like, hey, don't tell me what to do with your kid. I wipe your shit like I don't need you to tell me that I can't do this when I'm the parent here or I'm the grandparent here. And there is a reality to how challenging it is to give up that role of being able to make all the decisions. Because now you've gotta acquiesce to your child's adult child's desire around their child. And that's a tough transition for a lot of. Grandparents to make.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In. Like oh, you. Look like you have something you want to add or.

Host: Michael:

Say, well, I was going to say Dan very slowly offered his judgment, which is everybody stuck there. So where?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I heard that. I heard that.

Host: Michael:

Are you at? Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, everybody sucks here. I really am upset at the grandparents and I think that was probably because I'm not a grandparent, but I'm a parent. And I could see. How quickly we slide into making decisions for the child that I wouldn't want to have to have made. So I was really pretty annoyed at the parents that the grandparents first. But I really liked. And Dan, you really hit it on. Head they violated the child's body autonomy by getting her ears pierced against the parents wishes, and now the parents are doing this tip for tat thing by coming back and saying to their parents. Now you need to Pierce your nose. I'm going to push you on your body autonomy and I'm going to hold that hostage so that if you want a relationship with your grandchild. And I don't like that either. There’s no world in which we can have someone to do something with their body in a quid pro quo kind of way that's actually going to make this any better. No one's going to feel good with that solution. And that's what makes you know what I might even go further. Not everybody sucks here. Everyone here are shitty.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Either and then they send I'm pulling. Everyone's an asshole here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, everyone's pretty shitty here. Everyone missed the opportunity to be respectful to someone else. Everyone missed the opportunity for a grown up. I say it's over and over again. Have a asshole grown up conversation. Mom. I am really angry at you for doing this. You violated like my wishes as a parent, and this is not OK with me. I need to know that I can trust you before you can be around my child and the parent grandparents. Like, yeah, we screwed up big time. We totally like everyone should be doing this and like not not this kind of like. Well, you have to do this and I'll do that. No, I have the right to because I did it parents. Even just getting caught up in their own shit and no one's trying to work it out in a way that makes everybody happy and brings the family together, everyone just trying to this family. Yeah. So you all suck. Except.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For the kid?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Who probably has, you know, probably doesn't have earrings anymore. I'm guessing they took them out and they're they’ll heal over and give it her age. Probably won't remember anything about it because juvenile amnesia is present until about age 2. So fortunately there won't be any recollection. I believe. Is that still accurate? Yeah, I think it's accurate. Yeah. They just don't remember anything before that point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You'll probably be. Fine. Yeah, you know, but wow. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

May I have some questions about where? Her grandparents are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but wouldn't that be terrible too?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That would that would be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A huge loss would really suck. That would.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, she could potentially be missing out on a huge part of not just her family, but her heritage, because now we've got, you know, people living in another country, and if they hold her from experiencing that they will, they will cut her off and to some extent from from her cultural.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. All right, Michael. Yeah. Yeah. So the Internet fell into three camps. They were. You're not the asshole, they, you know, was a violation of your trust. OK. The other one was you were the asshole for making an outrageous request. And then the third. And I would say the most compelling agrees with you that everybody's shitty here. Everybody's an asshole. And my favorite comment in the everybody sucks. Here was your request, which you believe to be an ultimatum and outrageous still gives them the choice that your daughter and you did not have. And I was like, wow, that's. Actually pretty insightful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That. That's it. That, that that's really interesting. I do. You know, I sometimes think about this idea of what if and play it all the way through to its logical conclusion. What if the parents go? All right, that's worth it. And they show up with pierced noses now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is. What? Yeah, you someone you ever resolve the underlying, like? OK, well, we did it. So we'll just, we'll, we'll do something else and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm crazy about 1 preacher, your loves like. Just we'll just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do what we need to do. Whenever we scrub, we'll do the punishment and we'll move. On like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Like. No, no, just that's just pretty ugly. So yeah.

Host: Michael:

So this other. Kind of long. Your post is in general about situations like this where it says there are so many times. These posts come about because just like you were saying, the parents and the grandparents shit heads over what's appropriate or not, and they always seem to follow this scheme of of you did this thing and now an off ultimatum. Now it happens, never resolving the issue. You need to close the loop and come back. So I was very glad to see that ultimately they said, you know, stick. Your guns about, you know, the line that you drew but don't require something equally ridiculous. You need to move forward from here, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We agree then with the Internet I at least I agree with the Internet on this one if that's if that was the primary response. I think that's I just hate seeing families torn apart unnecessarily and everyone, everyone is taking this family down a really ugly path. And there's just. Their opportunities to save this, so let's save this.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I totally agree. Well, thanks for humoring me and going down this road. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and just kind of the topic kind of definitely caught my eye. Remember, though, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black and white as we, as we pointed out. In this episode.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I gotta tell you, I am constantly. At the Internet and the strange scenarios that come about in this particular form and you just can't make this stuff up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So stay tuned for a special conversation after the credits, and also you should like and follow and subscribe and tell your friends because that matters.

Host: Michael:

Definitely. As Dan said, follow share like review, do all those things on any of the podcast platforms and definitely stick around through the. Credits. They're not too. Long and they're kind of funny. I like the credits, but.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, how do you pick these? Like, how do you, how do you make the decisions on these like you know, I mean briefly, sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well qualifying request.

Host: Michael:

Briefly, it's important with me. I appreciate that and I'll try to stick to it. I scroll through them and I look for topics that kind of intrigue me and then usually they're disappointing. You know usually the headline is attention grabbing, click baity kind of stuff and then like the conversation doesn't really go anywhere, I will say. There are an awful lot of these that. They're posted by miners like under 18, and I almost universally discount those because I don't know. I remember being a minor and I was dumb and so like the. Questions. They asked, I think, kind of frivolous and I don't know, maybe I shouldn't do that but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, no, I think I also think there's there'll be a consent issue here. I mean, if an adult post something online, they know they're broadcasting to the world and I wouldn't feel comfortable if there was one for a minor. I'm moving forward with it. So I think you're right there, Michael.

Host: Michael:

I like your explanation better than mine. I'm going to go with that from now on instead of just discounting the. Concerns of my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I think that that I'm glad. To be able to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Really clear. He does not discount the millions of minors that. Live in his household. That's for that, but online, I do think it's a consent issue.

Host: Michael:

I agree. Yeah, but no, usually, you know, I'm looking for something that I think you guys can sink your teeth into. And, you know, I know a little bit about each of you. And so sometimes I find something that I go like. Oh, I wonder what that will bring out in the conversation. And it's kind of fun to see if you if you take that bait or not. Usually you do, which is good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

But you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Know hey, learn.

Host: Michael:

And then, you know, sometimes it's just, you know, the. Ones that are. Are really hot online. You know they have lots of comments. I'll be drawn to those who will be like, well, there must be something that people are worth having. This conversation about so. I don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As well as. Any.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, thanks again, Michael. No, thanks again Michael for coming up with a really terrific and interesting question.

Host: Michael:

It's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Better than the eenie miney moe option that he had you. Know when we first.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Now it now it would suck.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do appreciate the time you put into selecting these because I'm sure you come up with them. And we. Just have to sit back and chat. Fantastic. I know there's some work that goes into it. Ahead of time, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Tuning in next week for a wonderful am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript

Kelly Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with me today is doctor Daniel Kessler. As I always say, you're with is matched by your intellect. No, all the way around your intellect is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Either. I think the point is that they're both.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So probably order doesn't matter.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They're both equal, which means that I'm either really funny and really smart, or the exact opposite on both, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know you consistently make me laugh, so I'm going to go. Hi. And Alex? Really ready.

Host: Michael:

Alright, alright, alright well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And Gayle, I'm, I'm. I'm looking forward to tackling another one of these really interesting queries. So Michael take us away.

Host: Michael:

Of course. Well, welcome both of you. First of all, and for any of the newbies out there, if you don't know, what am I? The asshole is, in short, someone posts a scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. And that's we're going to help determine if you're new. Also remember, stick around or you should also know. Stick around through the credits because we always have a bonus conversation. That's kind of fun. Right now, neither Gayle nor Dan have read through or been prompted or know this in any way. So they're coming at this cold and they'll give you their insights. Let's roll. This is an international one, which is kind of fun, although the other ones, I guess, don't specifically specify they're from the United States, but they usually have indicators that they're probably US based. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, this is a good exercise then in us using our cultural competency. That's something that's really important for a psychologist to continue to be aware of what our limits are in those cultural competencies, in today's culturally competent. Possible due to our just our. Standard of ethics, so bring it on. Michael, thank you.

Host: Michael:

I like it. I like it so the headline is, am I the asshole for telling my disabled friend that not everything can be disabled friendly, which is poorly worded, but I think you'll understand what you mean. So this is the rest of it. The poster is 25 male and he's taking his friends.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. OK.

Host: Michael:

Two men, two female, same age range, 24 to 27 around New Zealand, where he lives. One of them female, 27 is in a wheelchair and is a big disabled rights advocate, won't say her name, but she has a following on TikTok. Instead. She's made her whole OK blah blah. I'm going to skip over that part plan this three-week trip with activities that are disabled friendly. Absolutely fine. We all have wine tastings, walks, boat cruises, etcetera. With one exception. Three of us wanted to do a famous Alpine crossing. It's over 8 hours over rocky terrain and 1200 meters of elevation chain change, none of it wheelchair friendly. Before the trip, we cleared this with her and she was fine with it because there were smaller flat walks that she could do with her other friend who had no interest on the hike. But she changed her mind while were actually prepping on that day and wanted to do the full crossing with us. We tried to gently talk her out of it. I've done it once before and I explained exactly how hard it is, but she spent the next 90 minutes grumbling. It's so unfair that it's not wheelchair accessible if it's a tourist attraction, it shouldn't be. Hardly any wheelchair access. I'm going to tell my followers to complain that it's discriminatory and we kept mumbling. Yep, while we. Packed and tried to keep her happy, but then she said it's not too hard to add a cable car to the top, and I sort of snapped and said it's literally a volcanic zone and a place of natural beauty. No one is adding a cable car. I fell up with and here is where I may be the asshole. I know it's your whole thing, but not everything can be wheelchair accessible. She just stared and everything kind of fell apart from there. So am I the asshole in this situation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, so I'm going to not, I don't know that. And what's the gender of the original poster here? It's like the poster was male and the friend is female?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Male.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, I don't know that he's having traveled with a disabled person for like many, many years now. We know that not everything is going to be disabled friendly and there are going to be some activities. Is that you can't. That can't be done. And it’s unfortunate. It’s really sad at the same time. It doesn't sound like he was terribly kind to his friend in his manner of responding, not necessarily so that he's wrong, but that doesn't sound like it was handled well to me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I totally agree. I mean, when you find yourself at the point of snapping, you probably have. Other opportunities to communicate with empathy and compassion and grace before that, you know, we've spent 90 minutes ramping up. Both individuals have spent 90 minutes becoming angry and more entrenched in their particular positions, which by the way, are being fueled by that probably very universal experience of disappointment. Right. Disappointment on the on the female friends and because now she has changed her mind, she. Wants to go. Totally get it right. And all my friends are doing this and I'd like to be able to join them and she's not wrong, right? Without him because he lots of these things wouldn't have become wheelchair accessible. But she's absolutely right to advocate for that accessibility, whether or not it's going to get built doesn't mean that she can't advocate it or shouldn't advocate for it. And yet the male friend is becoming really entrenched in in his position and disappointment that you. Know he went. To some lengths to verify the itinerary and to make sure that people had fun things to do. And I think he's feeling really kind of let down because maybe he just even felt like he didn't do a good job and it starts to feel personal and he loses it. He snaps unfortunately and says. And that's really regrettable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now, to be clear, everything. That can be made accessible should. Absolutely. You know, even if it's, I mean and there are some places that that I've been and I've gone, they could have done something here like they could have made the success of all. And I don't know enough about this particular situation to see whether that whether this could have been made accessible or not. But that's really not the issue here. The issue here isn't whether or not it can be made accessible or whether the friend was being reasonable or the person's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, the issue is the unkind, really. Action that they had now. Yeah. I I'm. I'm going to. I'm going to for a moment presume that that that that his friend was reasonable. and what she was asking although I also don't know whether the type of solution she was proposing was feasible and may it may or may not be depending on other conflicting rules.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and certainly not feasible for her to be able to go on this trip. I mean, all just it may have been stellar and absolutely what ended up. Thing, it's not going to work for this particular trip. It's not getting her any closer to that type.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ah, this kind of sucks I don't like. It when we. When we agree so. Well, we need to, like find a a good point of disagreement to kind of get annoyed with each other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About right, which we can do and we can spur on that. But I think you know ultimately therapist and us, you know we do align really similarly we provide. But you know, strong cognitive, behavioral take on things where we really work with our clients, we're on relationships. Sometimes we're just going to respectfully agree and say, yeah, we would do it in our office. I will offer though, as a point of discussion, one of my favorite points of education for clients around this kind of emotion that the poster is experiencing and his friend too, which is Emily Nagoski's. Sleepy hedgehog, model of emotion management. I love this and I think the book has maybe been republished. So there are some tweaks in it. I have a version of it that that I just I love it and. Actually, I loved it so much when I read it. I then sat down with my then pre teenage boys and read this section. Now if anybody knows anything about Emily Nagoski's work and this is actually coming from her book, come as you are. I think I failed to mention that this is a book written by yeah, you've got it there on your on your table. This is the work of someone who is a is a sex educator, and that particular book deals with primarily female sex and sexuality. So she's really taking this lens. You think? Why would you read teenage or preteen boys an excerpt out of a book about female sex? Well, because what doctor Nagoski does in such a wonderful way is to talk about the experience of having an emotion. And she talks about it in a sleepy hedgehog because I think it's, you know, hedgehogs are kind of cute, but they got little spiky quills and you need to. Need to handle them appropriately and she talks about if you're having a feeling, why don't you think about it as a hedgehog that you find and in an inconvenient place? On your home, like the chair, you're about to sit in. So rather than sit on the hedgehog, you pick them up and you notice its name, right? Or if it's unnamed, you give it a name, and in this case, you name your emotion. Each of these, the poster and the friend would have benefited by just simply saying I feel right, and sometimes they're more than one feeling at a time. But I'm having this emotion. And then the second step is to figure out what is that feeling need. If you've been hurt or disappointed, how can you heal that loss? Three, what do you what was it? It's name. Sit. Sit with it. What does it need or what do you need for it? And then tell your partner and saying I feel X and what I need is Y. And your partner has the opportunity to turn towards you and help heal that that loss or that feeling. Right. So, you know, in the case of this particular poster, you'll feel really disappointed. I made plans that I thought would accommodate everyone. What I need from you is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can totally. I mean again, I see this happens a lot with these kinds of things where people get so entrenched. And I I'm going to rollback to every ROM com could be resolved by a good conversation minutes into it. You know here's an opportunity. I imagine that this that this friend got there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And just. Was really disappointed by her inability to participate in something that it's going to be such an amazing and meaningful activity, and the original post strike could certainly soon then, well, you know, were thing back then we'd resolved this. We're going to be able to do this. It was going to be fun. You're going to have things to do and I'm feeling I could see them both feeling that deep sense of disappointment and sadness. and frustration and then, you know, you've been. Being for, for disability, for accessibility, for disabled, disabled folks, for many years, this is just going to bring back all of that pain of being left out of things over and over and over and over. Even if you haven't been able to get no disabled, folks get left out of things over and over and over again. And here's just another thing that everyone that. I'm being being excluded from that. I shouldn't be and it makes perfect sense. To me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Actually, because you may not know what that hike looks like and you get there and go, Oh my God. This looks amazing. I don't want to miss this. You know what you have planned for me instead is really sort of second rate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, it's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not that you know, and not that that that was done through harm or malice, just simply accessibility, right? And so, like you said, you're brought back to all that hurt and pain. The things that the rest of the able bodied world does without thinking about how someone without the ability to emulate on their own would be impacted by that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But with couple of thought, and anytime we're talking about people's feelings in couples, like it often comes up that that, you know, we don't necessarily, we're not necessarily reacting out of what happened just now we're reacting of what just happened just now and all the stuff leading up to the state. And so often when I'm working with couples, you know, we're trying to figure out is the hurt you're experiencing is the intensity of feeling your.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, today in eight out of 10, does that match what happened or is today really a three or four out of 10, but all that other shit that's happened to this date, like of men said and it kind of blows it up to and you're reacting like an 8 and then the partner is react is what the hell you're reacting like this I get that you're hurt like. and I'm not saying this is what's happening here at all, although it might be. But certainly we see that a lot where people are reacting out of previous hurts as much.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So well said. Thank you because you know the most common thing a couple will say. Now again, I don't know that these these two people are necessarily romantically involved. Couple, but when we do see couples, one of the things that they say the most often is, man, we had the biggest disagreement over something. So stupid. Of course you did. But it's exactly what you just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Set.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it’s just all the feelings being being being pulled up again and when that's happening, if we're able to recognize ourselves but also be able to recognize for the other person like they're reacting like it may seem unreasonable in this moment. But if we look at the entire history, look at this person's person's background history or our background. Together as a couple in case of a couple situations like their reaction actually makes quite a bit of sense and how do I how do I, you know, give some grace here and try to be accepting of how tough this is for them. I think both of them could have done a bit of that in this. I'm not saying they're assholes, by the way. I'm not saying they're assholes at all. OK, maybe the dude who posted this a little bit because he. Kind of lost his shit there, but in general like, it sounds like like, both of these people came from a genuine place. At least to start out with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It wasn't negative. That wasn't unkind, did we? Just make a ruling early.

Host: Michael:

I think so. That's what I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe. Maybe. We bumped it a little bit. I, you know, and Dan, I again. I would agree with you that I don't think there are assholes here. I don't think anybody sucks per se. I think the end response was shitty and really requires a relationship repair now because.

Host: Michael:

Was going to ask you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of the way she presented that disagreement, that that shouldn't have been said that way. and hopefully they have a strong enough relationship that they can engage in that repair.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would hope so, because he is and I think there are two places in which I think he he crossed the line certainly at the end with that harsh but you know going well you know they they couldn't possibly do that because of this and that and you don't need to explain to her what where it couldn't be done. You don't know this and my guess is that that was born out of some sense of defensiveness and. And one you know and that I don't think that was necessary or useful either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I found myself thinking the same thing when he was reacting to the suggestion. Like, how do you know? Are you a geoscientist that knows what can and cannot be done? I mean, I understand where he's coming from, but yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like I do, but it sounded more like defensiveness than it sounded like respectful. Kind discussion of the of the possibilities of installing handicapped. Accessibility.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I I would. Have named it almost mansplaining when we get mansplained as women very often it does explain some defensiveness, and I say this with my business partner and my husband on the line. We're all men, you know, men play, but they do, and that's how. That's how it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It it had element, it certainly had that mansplaining elements to it, at least the way that you posted. What are the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So there, there are actually two comments I'm going to read in their entirety in a moment. One is actually a follow up from the poster, which you do.

Kelly Buttrick:

Really.

Host: Michael:

Often get. So I actually kind of appreciate. Yeah, kind of. And sometimes when they delete their account. And anyway, the one piece of information that I wanted to know that I don't see any information in there about is the ethnicity of the person, the disabled person. Like, I would love to know if she was a New Zealander.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They drop and run.

Host: Michael:

As well, because obviously then. She would be well, she would really know about exactly what she's in for or, you know, because some of the conversation in the Internet conversation was assuming that she was American and entitled. And they packed a bunch of stuff on her and then coming to this other country and imposing her expectations from her country. On New Zealand I don't see anything to back that up and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The ethnicity of the person who was doing the hosting, either we sort of assume maybe he is a New Zealander, but maybe he's an American living abroad you don't know.

Host: Michael:

That's true. There were interesting side conversations about how you can't impose your country's perspective on another country like just because people went on about the US. National parks and how and good and bad, because this brought out some of the worst of the Internet, where people were like, it's nature. You're not supposed to mess with it and blah blah blah where other people were like, well, everybody should have access to the national parks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like you know, I'm going to interrupt a plug here if you have a permanent disability, you can get a lifetime pass to that will get you into every National Park in the United States if you're US center every National Park in the United States, and it's a lifetime pass for you and the people accompanying you. So just putting that plug in here for the. A lifetime US and I forget the name. Of the past. But we'll we'll.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's fantastic. So yeah, that's a that's a. That's great. I thought they only did it for kids in the 4th grade year, so it's really nice to know that they've extended that to other individual group.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Lifetime Pass for anyone who has a who has a permanent disability, plus their family. Numbers. Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

That's awesome. In terms of the internet's ruling, there were really kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wait, wait. Before you say that, let me let me go back to something else though. is we can't impose our countries values on other countries. They get that. And yet without seeing the models of other countries and how they function, isn't that part of being a worldwide citizen is to look at what other people are doing? Maybe well, maybe not. And accept their influence. I mean, we're in relationships. At a country level, and so sometimes I think when we look around, we can see other countries doing things better than we do shouldn't. I thought that shouldn't we impose that on ourselves? To some extent. I don't say and I don't think the US should impose our standards on necessarily other countries, but I think we need to be open as countries to accept influence, hopefully for the good to make our nation better, right? Anyway, that's just that was the thought running through my head. Thank you, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So they’re ruling kind of came down in three. Three kind of categories. One was straight up. You're the asshole. Like, you know you went. You clearly have a grudge against her by calling her thing when it's literally her life and she has to deal with it on a daily basis. You went way too far in the way you chastise her at the end, you know, let's hope that you haven't damaged this friendship beyond repair. Blah blah. So you're the asshole. Was a big group there. There were several people who said no assholes here essentially kind of equate each other out, and that you both kind of made missteps and maybe maybe you could have done better. And then the other one was. Everybody sucks here, and that seemed to have the most traction because it was people reading through the post and going well. He said you talked about this well in advance and she said no, I'm not going to. Do it and then kind of at the 11th hour decided. Yep, I want to do it. And now they don't have any time to figure out an accommodation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's assholes. I call assholes on that. That felt like a consent conversation. You get to change your mind to what? You're consent to what she said. She wanted to go, and then at the last minute back down. Which you. Know like no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I get where they're coming from and respectfully disagree with the Internet on that. Yes, I we do change. Sometimes we change our minds. Sometimes we get to a place, we get to a situation and we change our minds.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Then we shouldn't necessarily like to. To me, the ability to say this is not the decision I came to was a poor decision and I should change. My decision is actually kind of a kind of a good trait. I think people sometimes we get down a path and we've made the decision we've told everyone. OK, we're going to keep. Doing it and. Sometimes, like Super Bad idea and let's. Let's change this up, and especially when traveling to unknown places you've never been before having. Having I really and my family really enjoys traveling, and sometimes we find ourselves. Yeah, I know the thing. It'll work the way you plan on having it work. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to change up your plans. And I think that there's there are opportunities here for. There are opportunities here for, for everyone to kind of do things a bit differently than they did. But I'm not mad at.

Host: Michael:

Her for changing her mind and wanting to wanting to do it or being upset she couldn't. Sure. Well, one of one of the posts that I'm going to read is the perspective of the everybody. Sucks here and mainly this one stuck out because it had been upvoted and commented on so much so it says everybody sucks here, but let me explain. Having a disability sucks big time. I'm disabled and there are so many aspects of life that a disabled person will never get to enjoy. Disabilities don't just mean I can't walk and I'm wheelchair bound. People with service animals get rejected by a lot of places because of their animals. People with PTSD have to endure fireworks and loud noises because holidays happen. People with diabetes can't have real sugar. It sucks. It's not fair. It is what it is. Expecting a wheelchair. Access to a volcano track, however, is a bit madness. It doesn't mean. That she can't want to try to experience that in some way and express the grief and disappointment about that disability and demands on the world do not make her an asshole. It just makes her a human being. The fact that you went off on her makes you a bit of an asshole, though. You really shouldn't be able to do the bobble head and passively. Go along with her beliefs if you really think she's taking her message too far. You know, that's part of being a good friend. It's not able us to say certain things are just not meant for handicap access. It's also not ablest for my town to have two huge fireworks displays a year, even though me and a bunch of other vets get panic attacks from them. It's just part of life. I hate it, but I've accepted it that it's part of my reality. The world may care about a person's disability. However, the world is not required to change and accommodate it at every turn, but that doesn't mean you don't stop asking it to change.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

I thought that was kind. Of interesting you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sharing that one, that is, that is a really thoughtful response by a commenter. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And then the poster responded and he just said this exploded unexpectedly. I've read nearly every comment, even though I didn't respond to all of them. Seems like the general consensus is OK with the general sentiment, but I did a really bad job with the words conveyed, and I've made the situation far worse than it could have been. I knocked on her door. And I apologized about how I said it. I apologize for my language, and using the word should instead of could in the sense that. It would damage local cultural sentiments and natural features to add accessible, hand accessible accessibility services. The way she outlined it, we had a chat, she said. She was sad to miss out on the bigger hike and when she saw us packing for it got really excited and that's what prompted her to change her mind. We're good friends, we're good, we're good now. We're friends for about 8 years and both of us regularly enjoy spirited arguments, but it's not normally about this topic. This is the first time it came up. I'm still learning the ropes about how best to approach this area, and so some of the you’re the asshole comments really helped with that. Thanks everyone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wow, I you know what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Love the attitude. Great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I love it when people. I mean when you can hear people say you're an asshole and go. Yeah. Yeah, that's I. I think that there's like that's one of the like I think personal goals I have to be able to hear negative feedback and go. Yeah. OK. Yeah yeah that's helpful. Because most of the time. When people provide that if their. If they love you and they care about you, if they provide negative feedback, they they do mean it as a as, as as some or they hopefully you have a good relationship mean it is something that they want you to improve on. So you know the sort of loving rebuke can be a really positive and caring thing to do you much more caring than being just being nice. About it or just?

Host: Michael:

Name calling.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's pretty dickish. So I like where this one landed and I like both of those posts here. You read out Michael, especially the person who came to realize. Yeah, I was a dick and apologized and kind of like made it right and that recognition that yeah. It was like huge disappointment when I actually got there I could feel that.

Host: Michael:

Right. Yeah, well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What?

Host: Michael:

Thank you both for an awesome conversation and a glimpse into the collective consciousness of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Life is strange. You really can't make this stuff up. And why would you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So we'll do this again next week and really looking forward to Michael pulling another interesting thing out of the Internet for us to talk about. But stick around, we've got some, we got more.

Host: Michael:

Coming absolutely. Please follow and share very test views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, as they've alluded to, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation. But the seemingly random items in therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The conversation.

Kelly Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Gayle, do you have, like a foam apple thing in your office.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do. I have a decorative apple and it's really strange. It sits on the top of. A shelf in. My office, just alone. It's not even a part of a fruit bowl, but I bought it to represent a conversation that I had with my then five year old child. And it's a reminder of this amazing conversation. But it's also a great conversation. Have for adult individuals in my. In my office, when we're talking about cognitive distortions, so the story is that my son was sitting at the table using kindergarten at the time, and he was eating an apple and he said to me, mom, I know that if I hold this apple up here right in front of his face, it looks really, really big. But if I hold it over here, it looks small. And I was like, oh, my gosh, my child is a genius. He understands this idea of perspective. And it was really just from a development point. It was really cool moment to watch him explain to me his world. Right. And I think he's hearing the world through their lenses. Is cool anyway. And so I took a bit further in the conversation than with him. And I said, well, you know, buddy, OK, so two things. One, I treat adults and two, I've always explained to my kids that I'm a feeling doctor, because how do you explain therapist to a 5 year old? So I said to him, you know, buddy, this is something that I teach grown-ups every day and I'm not even kidding you. He looked at me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That guy had three heads. What do you mean you were telling grown-ups something that me is kindergartener knows and understands, like he did not comprehend. I said, well, you know, one of the jobs that I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Have is to help people when they come in my office. Their problems look are right in front of their face. They look really, really big. And if we can just. Suck them over. Here they look smaller and we can see around them and we can see that there are other choices and I use that as an introduction to a conversation about cognitive distortions, because identifying what distortion you're using in a particular instance and negative. Come across right, you can say, oh, I can back up from that now because I can name it and I can sort of see around it and gather, you know, better, more clear evidence. So I use that a. Lot in my cognitive work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not less random than it seemed, huh?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, there’s, there's always a reason. Right. Yeah. Alright, cool. Thank you.

Host: Michael:

That's definitely part of why I love these little conversations. At the end is, you know, there are. There's a reason for everything in your space or it wouldn't be there at some point. So yeah, well, thanks everyone for tuning in tune again next week for another riveting am I the asshole debate looking forward to it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

See you all next week.

Kelly Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and I'm really excited to be here today because this is actually something I look forward to every week. I'm joined today by Doctor Daniel Kessler, whose intellect is only matched by his wit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hi there, Gayle, Michael, how are you today and I'm well, I'm ready to roll.

Host: Michael:

Oh, well, welcome both of you for the newbies out there. If you don't know, what am I? The asshole is, in short, someone post the scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. And that's where we're going to help. Determine and if you're new, you should also know that we always have a bonus conversation at the end of the credits, so stick around for that. But right now, neither Gayle nor Dan have read this prompt or seen this before, so let's go. Today's prompt is am I the asshole for refusing to take down a picture that has my son's dead name? So this one has lots of layers to it, like an onion. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys do with it. OK, so I'll read the whole thing here, which isn't super long.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I sometimes you're like, oh, yeah or no and this one. I want to hear more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I need to hear more. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They're more because the because you know, obviously we don't want to use those dead names. But at the same time, I want to hear more. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So I 42 year old female have a son, Ben, 19 with my husband Tom. Ben was born a girl and realized by the age of 16 that he wanted to transition myself and Tom were not initially supportive and it took longer to come around and only did so. After my husband Tom passed in an accident, then I realized how distant my relationship with Ben was. When Ben was born. Turn Tom got a tattoo of our then daughters name on his arm and we have a lovely picture together of me. Tom and Ben at a few months old at the beach where Tom's tattoo is visible. Ben doesn't like me to keep pictures up of him of him. In the past when he was a kid or older. And still female presenting. So I only have pictures of either him as a toddler or as an adult. Now the only picture that I have agreed not to or I have not agreed to take down is the one of us at the beach. I really like that one. And Bens only issue is that the tattoo shows his dead name. But for me it's one of the happiest memories and I don't want to take it down. Ben is very upset about me keeping the picture up and says I'm being cruel as it reminds him of his dead name. Tom passed when Ben was still. This is clarification. I guess Tom passed when Ben was still female presenting. So the only photo I have is of us three that Ben. Likes is the one at the beach where he's wearing a younger gender neutral outfit. Also, the photo is in a private place of the house near my bedroom, which is the only place where I see it and no other house guest would unless they came into my room. So am I an asshole for? Shipping this picture of my dead husband and my sons. That name up on the. Wall. Wow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, so often these are, I mean this complexity to this you know, on the surface of it, let's always respect what someone wants to be called. This is a tough one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I I completely agree, and I think I think that's just it, is this, this writer has been really thoughtful in terms of where this name is appearing and in making sure in every other way to be supportive of her son. Is fantastic, and yet there's still one sticking point. Now, of course, if these individuals were in our office, we'd definitely be having a conversation about what? Like for Ben to have even one reminder and what his thoughts are about this as well as exploring the connection the mom has to this photo that contains this name. I think that is really important. I do think that there is an interesting I tend to I really do struggle with solution and just really finding a solution here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You get, you get you. I'm going to stop you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I'm going to. I don't want. Please. Please, times. You know, even there rained in. Please do rained in on our solution. Focus. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is that OK? I jump in and just like. So I think the toughest, the toughest issues for us to address when we're working with families and couples are those issues where I don't know that anyone on the face of it is wrong. Like I think Mom here really wants to respect your son's wishes and at the same time has lost someone, I presume she loves very much and clearly at an age that was. Younger than expected, she wants to remember him and them as a family so I can see where she feels that way, and I can also see where Ben would feel like. Gosh, this, this, this is such a reminder of a time in my life that was so painful. I can. I can absolutely see where both of them have good reason for feeling the way they're feeling.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cool. I think that in some ways they're both right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a that, that's a tough one. I mean, it's certainly if they were in my office, I would really want to spend some time exploring feelings around this, whether these folks have, whether Mom and son have gotten entrenched in, like, this is what has to be or it should be or, you know, and whether they can find some way of resolving this so that both of them not, that they're compromising and both of them are giving in. But it's solving it so both of them feel happy. About what happened.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, absolutely. And I think there's something here in terms of BENS relationship with his deceased father in terms of the family photo because Ben was female, presenting for the duration of his father's life. That may also warrant a more thoughtful kind of conversation too, because, I mean, obviously been a part of this family unit and is represented in this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Photo in. His female toddler hood, like I think that. I think it's interesting that the writer says that Ben had it. It sounds like a better relationship. With dad in. Some ways prior to his death. And so, you know, there's this. There's this dynamic here of someone who's not with us anymore represented in that picture that I'm. Sure, he has thoughts about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I can also see where, if I remember correctly, Dad had not been accepting. So this becomes Michael's nodding. Excellent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh yeah, I thought that was.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Sorry. You’re right. She, she suddenly clarifying thing that they weren't really supportive initially and it yeah, it was after her husband passed that. Then they reconnecting. Yeah, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I thought I. Thought Dad was accepting before Mom? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just understand that.

Host: Michael:

I'll go back and reread. But I don't think so. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, let us know. Yeah. Yeah, I was calling. I was calling out. I was calling out Michael's nodding for those who are not watching. Us on YouTube. No, I mean, you know this is I could totally see if that name represents the father's not acceptance. Yeah, that would be further hurt. You know, I hate to go Princess Bride on us here. But like, I clearly can't. I clearly can't choose the wine in front of me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh please.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is. Is how I feel about. This because I really can't. See both perspectives on this as as being meaningful and have such like emotion tide to them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Let me jump in really quick and say so. The post does say the mom took the longest to come around, so it does sound like the father was at least at some point it doesn't specify how long before he passed supportive of. Sons transition and adopting the new name. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, what's that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It sounds like this one is maybe more fully transitioned since the father's death, because, I mean, we're talking about kind of a three-year timeline here I think than was 16 at the time and now 19. So anyway, but I mean I think it further just kind of says we need to have a conversation with Ben. Around his relationship with his father and what that was like and how that acceptance kind of came to be. And maybe that initial reluctance on his. Part of both of their part, and then just see that represented in the speech photo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

One of one of yeah, one of my experience has been when when couples or families start getting together and having those deeper conversations in a therapy office. And I hate to sound like I'm like plugging for therapy. But this is what I do for a living, right? Right. But sometimes as people begin exploring these things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Goodbye.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In therapy office, they come to a resolution themselves because what we're doing is helping them to hear each other more. And I sense the sense of entrenched Ness here that could really benefit from just exploring together how how the feelings are within that non judgmental kind of an atmosphere.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One of the techniques that I really like for these kinds of dynamics is that Gottman technique where you have each person outline a really narrow set of inflexible. All ideals, dreams, whatever. Right. It's just it's just, it's narrow as you can make it that you are absolutely unwilling to compromise on. And then in the outer circle listing everything else in the scenario that you could compromise on and allowing them to look at those areas of non flexibility. And everything that's flexible, I mean one that helps individuals see that actually there's more area of flexibility and ability to compromise than there are in flexibility and that tends to increase liking and respect for the person. Because when we start seeing the other person in the argument as being wrong, we tend to see them as being incredibly inflexible. And we're the one that's making all the compromise and we have all of these. This attribution, so one I think it's an exercise in saying no, mind, I add partner absolutely has a lot of flexibility and I can see those areas now. But also it really says this is what is. The pain point. This is what I treasure the most. I really need this to be accounted for in the solution and as much as I might want to jump to a solution, I think that doesn't represent their solution. They may have a very different solution, so I like that that technique a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I agree. And I really do like it. If I have confidence about anything. I have confidence that if this if these folks were to were to sit down and really work at hearing each other's perspectives, they'd come to some resolution. I don't know what that resolution would. Be, by the way, it's not like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Think of another number of different possible solutions that might not leave people feeling like I've given in and they've given an equally, but more like leaving both both Mom and son feeling like I was respected and we came to a decision as a as a family about what to do about this family picture. I don't know what solution would be and as a therapist I. Would be kind of agnostic to that, like whatever solution they came to is their solution to come to and. I just maybe I'm overly confident, but I think that if these folks sat down, they would probably come because something if they were able to hear each other and maybe the internets necessarily, I don't the Internet agree with that. That's kind of my sense of it. Just having worked with a bunch of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Folks, we're in very different spots. Well, I think when you go through something as really formative. And impactful as child's transition from one gender presentation to another, I think you have gained a lot of wisdom and skills, hopefully along the way and a lot of compassion for each other. So I'm hopeful that this family could do that again. But I think you're right, it would be a solution unique to themselves.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Now, you said you had a solution earlier. Can we go back to that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I honestly, if this were my child and they wanted to be represented as a family photo, but the sticking point is the name, the tattoo on the image we can airbrush that we can just take that off of Dad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think I think the I think. The kids say Photoshop now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you. All right. So I'm all that, that's fine, but that wasn't even the photo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, the point is like we just have such digital abilities to make that look flawless and seamless. Now my worry or concern about that as a potential solution is then that disrespects dad's body. Dad chose to put ink his name on his body, but it may be that it's the sun transitions that he would have then modified.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Tattoo to be more reflective of Bens current name versus Bens dead name so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, like I. In my in my fantasy about how this turns out like the dad, you know doesn't die, and the mom keeps the photo up and like Dad has the has the has the tattoo altered on his arm to be and instead of whatever it did before or and then they go together and they like Photoshop it together as part of like this family project and it becomes like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Warm, squishy, like, oh, but that but also means that, like, dad's alive. And so I've I've, like, resurrected father for this, for this fantasy of how this comes. Out which obviously.

Host: Michael:

Happen so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. But given that father can't be alive, then I think this is the next step because I do think that that would have been a family conversation if Dad had lived, then Ben would say, you know, you still have to think on your body, and that feels disrespectful to who I am now. Imagine that would be a hurdle that this family would have to have overcome given that dad is not with us, then we still have that hurdle. Overcome in some way, and this may be the most respectful way to do it, that that would be my solution again fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And Imagined a much smaller tax. Imagine a much lower tax solution with with mom, like sticking like a, like a sticky note or something. Or A or a stick on circle or something on the on the frame but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I mean absolutely. That could have been an an instant solution. You know, we worked with the guy once. What can we do by next Tuesday like that would have been, you know, doable by next Tuesday kind of thing. and I like that as a temporary solution to what's happening because we don't want to get rid of this very precious family photo and this. Totally important family memory.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I think I think it's therapists, the toughest part of this would be to or push out for me would be to avoid jumping in with some solutions and just spending the time with them exploring. Yeah. Anything that they come to a resolution without, without my suggesting anything without anything.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's absolutely the feeling I had in this conversation today. I mean, it's parallel to that. I mean, I was aware that I wanted this solution, but yeah, therapist, that's not what you want to come out with for your clients. You need them to come to it. And then if they're absolutely at a standstill still, sometimes we can gently. Offer a couple of ideas and just to get the ball rolling and ask them to generate some more ideas and that sometimes is helpful too because people can get really stuck in their way of thinking and not see options. And I've had people go Oh my gosh, that is so elegant and simple. That's that's exactly what I needed. Thank you. And you just kind of shake it, shake it loose for them. So Michael, I think you were going to take something and. We're just happily talking over you.

Host: Michael:

No, that's fine. I yeah. I just wanted to come in and say it was. It was interesting. The tattoo removal in the image was one of the suggestions the Internet came up with. And often the topics I choose, I try to find one that kind of has more of a light hearted aspect to it because I enjoy kind of the humor that goes with it. But then something like this. Just really grabbed me. and I have to say like it's one of the moments where the Internet didn't disappoint me, like people actually really respectfully engaged in the conversation you saw. There was a lot of people from the trans community that came out and responded as well. Where we going to say go ahead.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I was going to. I didn't want to hear what the Internet. I didn't know if they. If you were going to jump in with what the Internet said yet.

Host: Michael:

I'll hold off until you officially say what you think, but I was going to say the tattoo thing came up and the comment was, you know, even if Dad, we don't know if Dad changed his tattoo, because there were at least some overlap in there where Dad accepted Ben and his transitioned his new name. And so maybe he actually did change it. It still wouldn't have changed it in the photo. But you could go back and like you said, airbrush Photoshop.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Host: Michael:

Up. Heck, you could even ask Reddit to fix this for me, like they often do with images.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, I had Reddit fix a picture of my kids surfing with a whole bunch of people surfing in the background. Took like half an hour and someone fixed it for me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's amazing. Why so old school? I didn't even think about doing that. Wow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I posted it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, before you are clearly stronger redditors than I am.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I've.

Host: Michael:

Been to the Internet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Someone on Reddit if you posted that picture to that like there's a Photoshop subreddit or something. If you do that, I guarantee you it will get fixed within like 10 minutes.

Host: Michael:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Actually, so we need to finish this conversation, but I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Someone would jump in and say absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think no, no, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'll pick that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I absolutely before we wrap, I really want to tell the Reddit photo story that that we have for my family because it's a fantastic story. It needs to be told, but it doesn't need to take up space in this conversation. I'd like to tell it. Before this conversation. OK, do it later.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And it's ours. Our really. I'm actually going to say there's. No assholes here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

assholes here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I think that everyone is coming from a place of. Love and caring and you know the mom I hear. I hear her pain. You know? She she she loves her son and doesn't want to hurt him. And at the same time she misses her husband. And just for yearns for that family picture and doesn't have any. I totally get Sonny's position of gosh, this reminds me of a painful time and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I just. I just can't see anyone here. As an asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I totally agree with you. I don't think anybody's an asshole. I think the sun is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely voicing his concerns, and began for himself, and I think that's what you need to do in a process like this, is to advocate for yourself. And I think Mom did a really good job of kind of explaining how she came to the place that she's at. She's clearly been impacted by her husband's death and really used that as motivation to connect with her. Run and move her off of her really stuck spot around his gender identity, and so I do admire Mom's willingness to be flexible. She might have come to it slowly, but I think that that is not unusual. And so I agree. No holds here. Just a tough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Family spot to be in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So what did the Internet say, Michael?

Host: Michael:

They were almost universally: no assholes here. The few that said not the like, just straight out, not the asshole, strongly recommended the sun get well. Actually that the two of them get therapy together. Family therapy to talk about unresolved issues. But yeah, most it was really interesting to see how many people. Came out and identified as trans and said I'm male to female. I'm female to male. I'm and they gave personal information about themselves and told personal stories and said Mom has done all the right things. She's not showcasing images where your birth sex is obvious. She has keeping. She's kept those photos of the family private and not displayed them. She's trying to be respectful that this image is not in a public space, so it's really for her private memory and reflection. She's embraced your new name. Yes. It took her a while to get around to it. But you know. It's a small detail. We don't see the image. Mom did engage in a couple of the responses for information and she never once gave the dead name or any additional information. Yeah, OK. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So and we don't even have comments on the comments, I mean usually.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like. Yeah, sounds good to me. No, I've got.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Scare them apart a little bit, but no, I this is this is a wonderful response from the Internet and the trans community.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Really glad, really glad that that, that folks chimed in and said how they feel and I'm. I'm personally going to go back and Michael, I'm sure you'll send me that. I'd love to read the comments myself because it's really interesting. So yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, it was a good one. It's. Yeah, it was just kind of hurtful. And I could totally feel the mom. You know, kind of the grief, right, like of if you imagined a hole in your photo album from three years old to 16 and not being able to look at those images or display them would be really hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Be tough. Yeah, all right.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both. Again, for a riveting conversation, I always enjoy where these go. And as we've talked about the moralities, not Shades of Grey, it's not just black. And white, sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh my gosh. Well, life is certainly strange. You can't make this stuff up. And would you want to?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. and join us next time we go through another another really intriguing discussion here I hope I hope intriguing.

Host: Michael:

Move. Yeah, that's what I aim for so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So before we kick off. To our bonus conversation, I want to tell you. About this photo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

An extra bonus bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, this is the bonus bonus. Blow your mind. So if you know it's not 2020 was fucked up here, just straight up bucked up every time we turned around, there was something that was fucked up and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Up here. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We I think. Hopefully it go through maybe on a memory or something like that. Yeah, I can't quite remember, but we were recently reminded of a photo that we took because something else really sucked up happened in 2020. It was a storm that came through and I, you know, typically when a storm comes through and go to the front of my house and if you've got the sun setting, especially in the afternoon in the back, you can get really great rainbows. Fun love to see a good rainbow and I went out and I am not even kidding you. It was the most fucked up triple Rainbow I had ever seen because you had a rainbow arc and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Then a rainbow and then a rainbow.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, the rainbow at the wrong angle.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It was a fucked up rainbow. We're like, what the heck? Look, I'm seeing when they see I took a photo, uploaded it to Reddit. I am telling you in 10 minutes, didn't it? Didn't think about it. Didn't strip the location information off the photo. So someone mapped it. Recognize that there's a body of water over there. That was refracting the light and that was. What was sent? The fucked up rainbow. Thank you, Reddit. Oh my gosh, you geolocated me. Really quickly and explains the physics of what I was saying.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is the. It was so cool. If there's nothing else that's in, it's an instructive tale on what you post on the Internet and how easy it is to find you. They were able to geolocate and figure out where the rainbow effect came from.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

They did it very respectfully. They didn't docs us or share the address they just said based on this stuff, there's this body of water and of course Gayle and I were like, Oh my God, yes, there is. It was totally a science.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, exactly. We'll have to post it out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wasn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It was. It was great. Lots. It was supposed to de identify baby version on the on the website.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, think of that. That picture needs to go up along. With the pictures in our office OK.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So please do follow and share Veritas views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends and as always, stick around through the credits for the, I guess, bonus bonus. Now conversation about the random items and therapist offices and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick, a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Diagnosis or treatment listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health. Issue please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus bonus bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, I'm Dan. Can I ask you about something I've seen? In your office. Absolutely. Maybe. I can't even tell you. How long ago I noticed the show up, but I'm kind of impressed because I think it's. I think it's a little stress squeezies. But it's in. Shape of a curling stone.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm wrong about exactly what that is, a curling stone squeezy. It's something squishy, but curling stones are not that. They're.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No it isn't. Decidedly, that's a 4044 block of granite. Yes, you. I went with my with my curling team Hank's boiler repair to a. To a curling event. It was a tournament the, the, the US men's, the gold medal winning US men's team were there and we, we we watched it and they were giving out little curling stone like stress squeezy things. And I thought that is a cool thing ever. And it came to my office and it's just there and I will say interesting. It's been there for about 5 years now I think. One person is gone. Is that a curling stone? It just kind of sits there and I'm sure people.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Go ohh Minnesota, you would think that people would know what calling stone is when.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're in Minnesota. They probably just look and go, huh? Curling stone like no big deal like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. But if you were like North Carolina, they'd be like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What the hell is that? Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. Totally. So there you go.

Host: Michael:

They they don't. Want to completely derail this? But was that the same one where we saw the professional mustache guy?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, again, the largest mustache and it was like like 6 feet across.

Host: Michael:

No, no, I mean the guy who had the crazy mustache in the curling center who followed the, it wasn't 6 feet, but it was. It was pretty mass.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Maybe maybe two or three.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Feet. It was a big ass mustache though.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I was pretty impressive and he just followed the curling team around and supported them. And he was like, sponsored for his mustache or something like that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're. Yeah, by the way, I'm going to vouch and say that that that that was. Not made-up, that was. You telling the truth? You tell the truth so.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, alright, cool. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. TuneIn next week. For as Dan said, another riveting am I the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bye

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with me today is my colleague and partner doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hey, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say something nice about you. Now I guess I'll say smart guys. That's pretty funny.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm supposed to say something really nice about you, too. I'll say that, that, that I really appreciate. No, I do. I. We've been spending ten years in offices side by side, bouncing stuff off together, off of off each other. We have big questions and. And like discussing psychological. It’s really fun Stuff like that's great. Enjoy doing this. So let's go.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Welcome both of you for anybody who's new to this out there. If you don't know, what am I the asshole is in short, someone posts a scenario and asks readers who's the asshole here. And that's we're going to help determine. Neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this before. So let's check it out. Today's is much shorter than some of the other ones in the past, so the headline is: am I the asshole for suggesting my girlfriend wears PPE at poker night? And then the very short.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You mean like a mask?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Personal protective equipment like a medical professional, OK.

Host: Michael:

I believe so. So. So this is this is the this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Host: Michael:

Is the full question. My mate hosts poker and cigar nights and this time our girlfriends were invited. He had a basket of filtration masks available for the girls when they arrived. Because of the cigars. Most of the girls were wearing them when we got there and it could be really smoky during the night, so I suggest she just wears it like the others, she said. It was an asshole thing to make girls wear masks so the guys could smoke without feeling guilty, which I don't feel that it was. Who's the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, train so. This dude is going to poker night. This is generally attended by other dudes who like to assume drink, maybe high end liquors such as scotches and bourbons and things like that as as men are want to do and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or low end or low.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Smoke.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

End beers at some of the poker.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Nights I've been to, oh, I suppose, but you wouldn't maybe do that with cigars, right? Low and beer and cigar doesn't really work like higher and worker in cigars. So sorry. I was making my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Anyway. No, you're right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so so we've got these, we've got those, these men sitting around the traditional poker table drinking liquor again, I presume, and smoking cigars and this this particular night, the ladies are invited and then they're given masks to wear. That that, that's the. That's the thing like. Do I haven't liked I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think you have it right. Does she have? It right, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, that's exactly the scenario that you're describing, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What the fuck?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is exactly it. What the fuck? Like, you know what? The ladies are dainty and they need masks. And US real men will smoke cigars and not have masks. This is. This is wrong on so many levels.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is so ridiculous. Yeah. And to absolve your skills or discomfort, smoking cigars, you're going to just slap a mask, I mean. Not invited the women, to be honest, if you don't want your women folk to inhale the cigar smoke or they aren't going to like it. Don't have them come. Sometimes the greatest gift you can give someone is the gift of not inviting them. In the first place. And they say that a bit tongue in cheek, but actually there was a, there was a great book. I'm going to take this off topic a little bit and you can bring it back in a moment. Either the gentleman in this conversation but there is a there's a book called the. Part of the Gathering and it's written by this woman, Priya Parker, who actually I think, Dan, you might be really interested in reading and knowing more about because she does high conflict mediation. She's got this back. And but she has written this book all about how how we gather. And she defines gathering history and more people and then really talks about the intention of the gathering and who you invite and kind of almost setting up rules around the gathering so that you can hold the intention of the gathering, like the moms night. You don't talk about your kids. And if you talk about it. You get a shot. You know, like that, kind of. Thing like, really? Being intentional about it, and I'll tell you what, I read the book. It was fascinating. She talked about this whole idea of, you know, not inviting someone that sometimes the nicest thing you can do so they don't have to tell you no right and have that awkward conversation. I loved it. And then I will tell you at the end of the book, I closed it and went. Oh my God, this is a group therapy textbook for therapists. This this was exactly what you need to do to run good, good group therapy. So there you go. That's that's my tangent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, that's it's, it's on topic of course. But I think I was thinking about. Again, we this happens so often and I've I've made the comment before that like every ROM COM could be solved by a good conversation 10 minutes into it and roll credits. But like, here's an opportunity to say hey. They. Like they could have, like, you know what we love to smoke and that's part of poker night. If you want to wear. A mask, all the while smoking.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, I'm going to. You can continue at the moment, but any woman who is with a man at poker night, and this is a ritual, knows that they asshole smoke cigars because he comes home and smells.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like cigars. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What do you feel about the smell of cigars that's coming home like?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Wait, but but there's an opportunity to say like, like, we're all going to smoke cigars. Are you comfortable with that? You want to wear a mask to make yourself let to? Make yourself more comfortable with it or. You know, or to sit down and say, you know what we're going to decide not to smoke cigars this poker night because we're inviting people who might be who might. Not feel comfortable. With that cigar smoke but but. But it's a conversation, and I think that the line is absolutely crossed when he's like you should wear a mask too with all the other, all the other women are doing it like that is that's again telling her what to do with her body.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, absolutely. And in a sense, how to dress, I mean, would he feel comfortable saying, well, you know, the other girlfriends are wearing, you know, body, body hugging dresses to this event tonight. So you oughta, you know, take that frilly thing off and put on something that's a little snugger like torrent. And yeah, we're telling her to wear a mask.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

How to how to present her body and how to protect herself, like that's just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And having, having been to many, many a poker night in my, in my misspent youth, although not this, not this kind, I. I was a member of the Moose Lodge and the Loyal order of the Moose from in in southern Virginia, and I played poker every Wednesday night and it was great game. I loved it. And it was a small basement room and everybody smoked there. But me there, there wasn't cigars or bourbon, there was beer and cigarettes, and I came home and I. And I think you know anyone who who, who who. Yes as you mentioned Gayle, anyone who who had met with me afterwards would know immediately upon my arrival that I had been in a smoke filled room. Why don't have a conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Why are we? Why are we inviting the partners? What are they supposed to do while these men play poker? Maybe socialize in another room again. Then you're away from the smoke. So flies in the same room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or they're lovingly over your partner's shoulder and cheer him up like the entertainment value here for these.

Host: Michael:

Maybe they're joining.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Women, maybe they're joining him with a poker night. I mean in, in which case, fine. But then that's a conversation ahead of time. Hey, you know, our partners don't particularly like, like Cigar Smoke. Let's not smoke this week, you know. Again, there's a conversation here, but the real the place where the line really gets crossed is when he tells. What to do?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That that's. Like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That the host offered the masks that was actually, I think, generous and thoughtful. And. And, you know, some awareness. I think you're absolutely right. He crossed the line by suggesting that she engage in sort of conformity. She was aware presently that the mask was there. She had made that choice. She was not making that choice. He pressured her into a choice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is correct.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's. She clearly didn't want.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Where? Where the fuck you want to wear? For fucks sake, OK? I mean, that's just it's just ridiculous to be demanding about about her or about her conforming with a social norm that she didn't sign up for and. And as you mentioned, everyone who walked in that room knew there was going to be cigars because they all know their boyfriends or husbands, and they got homes. They all they all knew. And if that's if that. If they were uncomfortable with it like you said, they could choose to wear masks, they can choose to not go, or the dudes could choose ahead of time to not smoke that particular week because it's just the respectful thing to do. Any of those things are perfectly valid and. And you're right, kudos to the hosts are being nice enough to offer masks if people uncomfortable. But where does anyone get off? Like no, you have to do this cause all the other women are doing it. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no.

Host: Michael:

No, no. Well, I'm kind of surprised neither one of you have said. Why the girlfriend didn't clearly define the boundaries of like, I'm not going to go in that space. That's not for me. I'm not interested. Kind of thing like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, you know, I had something similar along those lines not why am I going in this space so much? Because I. Actually, don't think maybe it popped her and she doesn't seem to be 1 to conform to these norms, just cause the other women are wearing masks. So I actually was more curious about her rationale for not wearing a mask because it may be bothered others, maybe other boyfriends were saying, hey, I'll wear masks. And so their their girlfriends are along. For me, and she's not. So I would love to hear from her about her thought and rationale and experience.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I had this image of. Or like sitting down at the poker table, firing up a cigar and saying deal me in like what I? I mean I've. I've been at. I've been at poker nights that that that, that that we're not like all dudes there's a there there there are like some like I played I played a lot of poker in my life and I my. My grad attended a few grad school poker nights where where such things were going on and. Although, to be honest at one of my grad school poker nights, the smoking was decidedly not cigars or cigarettes. Those kind of cigars nor cigarettes and I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The hosts were kind enough to say to me, do you mind if we smoke and I didn't really particularly care that they wanted to smoke and they were. I think they were like, there were six of us and it was three men and three women and half of them partaked in the partook in the in the particular product being smoked and half didn't. And I wanted to keep my. Wits about me. You know, because I was a poor grad student.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hoping to make the bank off here a little dressed into.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Open it open.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Her. Not so with it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I may have. Enjoy that night from a financial perspective because I had did not partake. It's possible that I walked away with, you know, a few bucks. But I you know, I knew what I was. Everyone knew they're getting into and I just. I have no idea why I suspect she want she joined in. I hope she joined into the game and why would why exclude anyone.

Host: Michael:

Unfortunately, we really don't get clarification on that. But as as always like I find I really love some of the comments. So I think my favorite comment this time around was if you all knew the girlfriends hate being around cigar smoke a, why invite them to poker night in the 1st place, you could have literally done anything else. B. Why didn't not? Why didn't not smoking become an option instead of make them wear PPE and then C I'll take shitty date night ideas for 500 Alex.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's ugly. OK, that's.

Host: Michael:

Like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

David, that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Whoever wrote that, that's fantastic. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

My favorite. I love all of those comments. Yes, why was it not smoking an option? Why did they? Why did they? They you said Gayle, why did they? Why did they invite them to this thing? That was kind of like their their dude thing. I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, got nothing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I got. Got I. I'm just. I'm just blown away by the whole like you. Have to wear. Mask thing like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What I love that he's still sort of questioning like he's still questioning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Who is the poster here? Was it the? Was it the girlfriends being made to wear the mask? Or was it the? Boyfriend, who was trying to make her wear the mask. I don't.

Host: Michael:

It was the boys. Boyfriend trying to make her wear the mask.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, he's an asshole.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, without a doubt.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. I'm confident in that. For, for, for, for. The hard reason being telling her what to wear, the soft reason being like choosing to like smoke instead of like an offer. PPE instead of like, just not having cigars.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So are you saying the boyfriend's the asshole?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hard, full stop and then soft asshole for the other men at the gathering for choosing to smoke and or offering pette in lieu of everyone remaining on masks and it masks and enjoying their time together.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Unless it was one of those. Things. Yeah. I mean, I could certainly see it as one of those things. Like, hey, you all, you know, maybe the, the I think that you said they're all boyfriend girlfriend really. Good girlfriends all. Like I we really want to go, OK? Fine. You want to come happen to have a night where you all join us and kind of see what we're doing. But, you know, we smoked cigars. How do you feel about that? Like, that's again, we're back to the conversation like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, that would have solved this tendency and roll credits.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The open, comfortable conversation around we all like to smoke cigars and then for the guys to sit down and be like, hey, what should we do about this cigar thing? This my I come home and my girlfriend's like you need to shower because you stink bro and you know. This has definitely come up in each of their relationships, clearly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. And again, I mean, the women have decided to go to this thing, believe that they know that. They smoke cigars. So that's it is an interesting dynamic. I would go soft assholes for the men who you know, maybe knew that this was in the front of the women when I had to did it anyway. And then, you know, hey baby mask up. But I don't really know. Exactly how that played out. So I feel like that's a that's a soft asshole. Maybe you suck a little bit. Kind of sort. Of but the boyfriend for sure. The moment he told her put. It on conformed to everybody else that that's just. That's asshole behavior.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Totally 100%. All right. We're in agreement. What is the Internet saying like?

Host: Michael:

I was going to say you're 100% in agreement with the Internet now. I guess I shouldn't say 100%. The vast majority said 100%. He's the asshole for a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Once again.

Host: Michael:

Coercing her to come, it was assumption that she wouldn't have come otherwise, which I think is problematic, no?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm. I'm not a yeah, well. Wait, what you say, gal?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I just think that's an inaccurate interpretation based on the data that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We have. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not.

Host: Michael:

Right. We don't know why she chose the game. Both point out she might have wanted to play poker and she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe he told her she had to come. Apparently it's not about telling her what?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe. To do right. No, that would make him that would. Make him even more. Of an asshole. Right. But if we're going to assume positive intent here and assume that that that that was like hey, like you know, all a lot of people, a lot of a lot of our partners have expressed some interest in doing this like. You know that tough night and and and come along. Yeah. I'm OK with that part of of of him inviting them and having them. I think I got a little sidetracked here. What was the? What did Michael use? Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, what we're on there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, he was an asshole for making her come. Yeah, I'm. I'm not. I'm not going to assume that he made her come if he did. If he did make her go, then that would be a that would totally be fucked up as well. But if they were invited and they had the choice and all the all the partners said, yeah, let's go to this. See this, this, this. This poker and it's like. Yeah, fine. I'm fine with that.

Host: Michael:

But to both of your point, I mean the. Minute that he. Coerces her to put on a mask and basically says conform. Everybody kind of piled on him, which rightfully so. I think my favorite tangents were people who essentially kind of tried to do the math and based on statistical analysis of Reddit user profiles and that kind of stuff, we're like, OK, you are white, 25 year old post college graduate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good.

Host: Michael:

You know, blah, blah, like pinpointed him and they're like, you're probably living in an urban, you know, and it was hilarious. I mean, he never came back in and, like, weighed in to say whether or not he was right. But then people were like, well, based on that, you should assume this and something else. And like, we feel like we're 85%. Right in our analysis of this person.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, I have to admit that is more or less the picture I had in my head just from a gut sense. I didn't do the math on it. But you know, I did picture a young white male living in a relatively, you know, kind of urban area dating, you know, probably a similarly aged, maybe a bit younger, female, who maybe felt a little like.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He could tell her what to do and be a little more commanding.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I totally had that stereo. I totally had that, that stereotype, you know, in my in my head, the yeah. And they have.

Host: Michael:

It. And in their case, they also then extrapolated more, which is like you're probably drinking fuck liquor, thinking you're all that and, you know, smoking terrible cigars and blah blah blah. Anyway, like, they just kind of continued to file on them. And it was, it was kind of funny. To watch. Yeah, it's uh, it it it it's lucky.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm drinking fireball and smoking fuck cigars.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He probably. Let's not make fun.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of that, as someone who is better, graduate student, and in my early 20s and purchased a cigar and then smoked it, that was so bad. It's one of the biggest not really regrets, but it was pretty impactful now to. To flesh this out this story out just a moment, as one is maybe inclined to do when they're in Graduate School for clinical. Ecology it a very easy Halloween costume for them. Very young doctor. Not quite. Doctor MacBride was brilliant. Flip. And what do you do but wear a slip with pictures of freight all over it and carry a. Cigar for the night. And you know, you get into the night and maybe a couple of drinks and maybe you smoked cigar, but it probably cost you $3. Because you're a graduate student and nobody should smoke cigar.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I have I have. I have no idea what cigars.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't even remember, but all I know is I had to have been able to afford it and it was not good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's not a good cigar, it's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not a good, not a good cigar.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really think we're I'm glad we're I'm happy that the Internet came together. It is where, where, where we came on this and that's that, that there really isn't any point where we should be telling our partner what to do, what to wear, how to dress. And I'm super happy to hear that the Internet absolutely came down South hard on that really important piece of this of don't tell your partner what to do, offer them kindness, offer them this, but don't tell them what to do. So it's in this particular case where my heart.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective consciousness of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth can be stranger than fiction stays true and stays strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we'll be back next week with another fascinating thing again that I have no idea what it is. I'm just assuming it's going to be fascinating. Michael always picks the great stuff for us. So. So looking forward to, to chatting with you all and the Internets. Yeah. And then in a week or so.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share veritas's views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and always stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items and therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride: @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So Dan, I've known you for over a decade and for the duration of that time. You have had an item in your desk drawer when you open and you run running around in there, I see from time to time it seems a little bit out of place for therapists, so I'd like to ask you about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The big hammer, the big hammer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, why? I really need to know why therapist doesn't hammer on the first. Do you really hammer things that often?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There’s big. The big aspect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's the hammer has two has two reasons. The 1st is that I've got a wall in my office that I look at every day and I wanted to find the perfect picture and I hung up. I got the hammer and I hung up all of my diplomas because, you know, my diplomas.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, but I so. I put the hammer in the thing when. I figure out what to put on that. All. Then I'll hammer it up. And I never 15 years and I have some figure out what to put there. So it’s there but but also the hammer was my dad's. And it it. It's a little piece of him. That stays there. You know it's an old hammer. It's got some damage to the handle. It's got a hole in it. I don't know where the hole came from. My dad. Dad. Drilled the hole and. At some point, but it’s also a piece of him that, that, that, that resides in my office. So like it's a, it's a monument to both a relationship with my father. And my own decisive this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love that and I can attest again, I've known you for a decade and I've not known you at a time when your dad was living. So he's clearly been gone for some time. And that's lovely that you've been able to kind of keep a piece of him in your office or.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Tune-in next week for, as Dan pointed out, another am I the asshole debate. Have a great week.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychology. Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Dan MacBride and with me today and got more days than I care to actually admit is my partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler, whose intellect is always by his wit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Gayle. I look forward as always to tackling yet another interesting conundrum that Michael's going to bring us. and I hear we have a bit of a recap, so that's cool.

Host: Michael:

Too, yeah. Before we plunge into the next one, we wanted to circle back around to a previous episode. Where we are dealing with a situation with a daughter who chose a birthday dinner that her brother was allergic to, and we ended up pulling our children. So yeah, why don't you start us off?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, OK. So Michael, the host and I have two children and one is 15 and I. Thought well, I'm really. Curious to hear what a 15 year old boy would say about these these options, given that our family also values going out to dinner to a or having a special birthday dinner that is identified. By one of the one of the individuals. Or by the birthday person I should say. And doing that as a family. And so I kind of I asked him and you know. He kind of thought. About it for a moment and, you know, really seemed like maybe that at home option was going to be OK. But then I think the. Wheels turned about and he was. Like, no, I think it's absolutely reasonable to request that the family go to a different place that wouldn't. Be difficult, overly difficult for one family member. He was definitely in favor of the family dinner at a place that was more amenable to everyone in the family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I and I asked my kid and again that the situation, if I remember correctly, was that the older daughter wanted a seafood restaurant and the younger son was allergic to seafood, and they probably could have found something on the menu. But maybe cross contamination. But, you know, they didn't have a lot of other options. And I described the scenario to my son, my 18 year old. He was like, yeah, that's Bob. Like Mom, I'm like, why is it it's a family dinner? I mean, yeah, I want to have what I want too. But like, like you said, you know, we, you know, like my, my wife eats no meat. I generally eat eat no meat. It's like it's like if I want to go to a steakhouse and you would send it up sitting there that would that would suck. Trevor and I want this. To be a family thing. So. So I'm going to. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm like, I'm pleased that the boy agrees with me but yeah that was you didn’t agree with us that was part of the part of why we wanted to ask our kids the Internet but always love he's like yeah I got.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Even when the Internet didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like half through, he's. Like. Yeah, that's fucked. Yeah, and.

Kelley Buttrick:

Thank you.

Host: Michael:

Desk I asked our youngest spontaneously, really quick before we started. and he said there are two assholes here, one the person who chose the meal that they knew their brother couldn't participate in. And then two, the mother who ripped that away from them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh man wow. She has a 13 year old podcast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we really should. We should. Bring. Bring in the 13 year olds for the podcast. No, I alright. So thanks. I'm glad were able to do that, recap and circle back with our own kids. So it was kind of a fun conversation to have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome both of you for any of the newbies out there who don't know what we're talking about. If you're not familiar with this kind of conversation about am I the asshole? In short, someone posts this scenario just like we did, and ask readers who's the asshole here. And that's what we're going to determine today with a different situation. If you want to. Follow that one you can.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I didn't hear this one. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

You can go back and find the previous episode and check that out, but neither Dan nor Gayle have been prompted or read this or seen it in any way, so let's go. Today's one is it's kind of a longer post, so bear with me. But I think all the pieces are kind of relevant. So the headline, the quick encapsulated version is just am I the asshole for taking a woman's wet laundry out of the community washing machine?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh man, I'm just feeling my days that I lived in an apartment here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. I'm already. I let's hear. Let's hear the details. I'm thinking how could this be a long post? It's like, you know, the laundry is. There you took. It out like I mean if it's been there for a long time, it's been there for 10 seconds. All right? But there's a long thing. Here, sorry, go ahead.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, that's right. So I live in an apartment complex with roughly 200 occupants. We share two laundry rooms with about 20 washers and dryers. 10 of each. There is an app that allows you to use these washers and dryers.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Love that there's an app for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That too, where was that app when I was, in college in 1980.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, well.

Host: Michael:

Certainly requires fewer quarters for sure. You pay for the washing using the app and the app sends you an estimate of the washing cycle duration and a notification when your laundry is done. Excellent. That's fantastic. Other users of the app can see if and how many of the washers and dryers are currently available in use, but can't see whether there is still wet laundry in the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love it.

Host: Michael:

Because of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know how many minutes or hours of my life I could get back if I had this? App when I was younger.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want it wait. Yeah. Well, also they didn't have cell. Phones. When I was younger but that. Yeah, so true. Yeah. All right. God.

Host: Michael:

Because of the fact that most people work a nine to five job in our facility, these washers and dryers are mostly unused during the working hours, but are often occupied in the evenings and week. A few days ago I wanted to wash my laundry and saw that there was only one machine available. When I went downstairs, I saw that the machine had finished its cycle, but the person hadn't taken their wet laundry out yet. There was a laundry bag in front of the machine, so I took their laundry and put it in the bag and then put my own in and started the washing cycle. Well. Sometime after I got back to the apartment, our apartment complex group chat, which is another thing that would have been helpful, Imagine had blown up because apparently the woman whose laundry I had taken out was pissed that I hadn't waited for her to do it herself and started accusing whoever had done it of being a pervert.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, that's over the line. Sorry. Go on.

Host: Michael:

I chimed in and said that it was her own responsibility to do so and that she knew exactly when her laundry would be done because of the app. And that's the only way to use these machines, that it was rude of her to assume that somebody had to wait on her when these washers belonged to everybody and that she must have thought very highly of herself to think that others would care about. For wet laundry that. Ohh no. And she got angrier and others joined her side.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Ohh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really. Ohh big surprise there.

Host: Michael:

Saying I should have sent a message in the group chat and waited at least 5 minutes for her to come pick it up. I didn't respond because I didn't feel like arguing about it today. Essentially, the same thing happened again, except I sent a message that I had taken someone's laundry out of out before I put my own in and left the laundry room. People got angry at me again and said we had all agreed that people wouldn't be touching each other's laundry, but to me it seems like I didn't. Free to anything, they are also continuing the pervert thing, which I think is highly inappropriate. Personally, I feel like I'm in the right, but since so many of my neighbors agree I may be the asshole. So what do you think? Am I the asshole for taking out her laundry?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

First of all I want to say you are 100% right, Michael. All of those details are really important. So I appreciate you going through all of that to get us here today because I think there's there's a lot of butter here. And do you want do you want?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To start. Oh, there's there's. Oh, there's so much. There's. There's so much here. I mean, on on, on the. Case of this is a fairly simple question. I. Gosh, I mean so, so. It's not I having lived in. I haven't done this since I lived in a dorm, you know, a long time ago. But it was. It was fairly common to go into the dorm laundry room and have. If you didn't get your stuff, the laundry would be stacked up like people would take the wet stuff and they put it on top of a different machine and they put their shit in and wash it. It was not unusual to go down there. Now we have a group chat, but then I, you know, I lived in a Coed dorm and some of the girls sometimes did say that some of their undergarments went missing sometimes. and so you. No. I her her her speculation in this story that the guy's a pervert. I mean it is not without basis in in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, we don't know the gender of the individuals here. We don't know the gender of the of the individual who is put, had laundry. In the machine. We're making some assumptions and we do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know the gender. Of the person laundry is this was a woman.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That that was doing her laundry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The first, the one that. Was left in the machine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, so we know that person's a woman, but we don't know that the poster is male, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't know if we know that. I think we're making an assumption. The poster is that based on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we're making an assumption based on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The accusation that the that the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Herbert Herbert. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I think that's.

Host: Michael:

OK, so sorry, there is actually we're clarification so people ask for information. So the poster does clarify a couple of things. So let me read that really quick.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please.

Host: Michael:

To answer some questions, I didn't wait in either case, so did you wait? Was one of the questions that came up. There's no way for me to know how long the laundry was done since the app either says there's a machine available or not. As to why didn't we? It feels weird for me to stand around the laundry room for 5 minutes every time I want to do laundry, when the person who cares about others not lying touch the laundry can show up 5 minutes earlier, small inconvenience touch their laundry for two seconds. Also, I am male and I assume the pervert thing is because there was underwear in there or something. But honestly, I didn't look.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, OK. So our great.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your assumptions were correct. Please. Yeah, OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know it is it is problematic. This app and the Community chat have some really beneficial opportunities that I think are being overlooked by the poster. Except I think that the poster also has some legitimate points here. You know, you and I have already. We talked about the fact that we have waited for laundry machines in one form or another and that it wasn't uncommon for someone to forget about, move on, get, you know, just not get back to the laundry machine. And so you take the little clothes out and you put it on the top. And that's the thing that happened. And I know I've certainly been in that position. Absolutely. I think there is a level of justification and impatience on the posters part, though you know that it does seem to be he's saying not reasonable to wait. And because I don't know, I shouldn't have to wait. And I do find that a little problematic and a little impatient. Given that you are living in a community living situation, it is unfortunate and maybe maybe a future future feature. There we go of the app to indicate how long the machine has been stopped. Because in those situations I think you do need to be responsive to getting down and getting your laundry out, especially because others may be maybe waiting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I'm a little troubled by assumptions here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's the first assumption is that he's a pervert because he took her laundry out and there's an accusation thrown for the second assumption, he said something and I'm just now, I'm blanking, you know? He said something really harsh. like he jumped all over her and got very entitled and. And I'm not that's not OK like everyone I think had an opportunity to make a positive whenever we you know we work with couples in relationships all the time and we're always telling people to make make positive assumptions wherever you can about people's behaviors. and it sounds like everyone in here, the original poster, the person whose laundry was left and everyone in the building, made negative assumptions about everyone else.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. And we tend to do that in social psychology, right? If you don't actually know someone else, they're your out group and you make more negative assumptions about people who don't belong to your group. And I think that's what's happening here is just a simple social social psychology phenomenon.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bye. Yeah, everyone just went well. He must have been doing this for nefarious reasons. Instead of like I'm picturing dude going downstairs and going. Ohh geez. And all. They're shutting machine and I'm tired. I just wanna get my laundry going. and Imagine her being upstairs. And the thing being off, just like I am right in the middle of something. I want to finish up what I'm doing. I got this e-mail. I got to send to my boss or I'm I'm, you know, I'm. I'm I'm working on this project for. For for school if. They're college or whatever. I will get down there in like, 10 frigging minutes. Like and, but it should be fine. Imagine both of them. In that place, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that they were probably both right. That's right at this point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And he goes. Yeah, neither of them were. Neither of them are wrong to start out with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now I think they both took a negative term that was that was completely unnecessary here. Their initial behavior wasn't necessary, though. She's not a terrible person for leaving her laundry, and therefore what it might have been two or three minutes, it might have been 15. He's not terribly wrong for going OK. I got to get my shit going and let me do this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I'll let people know. UM, and then they they all go South with negative assumptions and harshness and cross accusations that are that they just just just spur on such such hostility.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, in my office when we have these kind of opportunities to talk with people about how they communicate, especially in high conflict or potentially high conflict situations. I mean, the first thing I'm going to tell someone is don't name call, you know, to name, call someone to call someone a pervert is not useful. It's not going to produce it. A helpful or productive conversation. And so I think that's one of the first places this goes South. Now, I do appreciate that the poster chimed in the Community and Tom said it's me and put his hand up in the air and owned it. I think that was. It was a helpful thing. Unfortunately, of course, it came back to kind of bite him in the alphabet. But you know, I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but with some protection.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But only it was sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With cross accusation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, I mean, he didn't own it in a particularly mature way, added added to the little fire that began and to use your word from another episode, you know, created a conflagration where you have this whole community now weighing in and up. In arms, when it wasn't their laundry and they need to just shut the hell up and let 2. People you know this, it's a community issue. But right now it it it is. It is two people negotiating something that happened that was unfortunate and they needed to have maybe taken that offline and had a more productive conversation instead of doing it in this public forum and sort of akin to yelling in the streets when the neighborhood is quite busy and shouting at each other. It's not. It's not useful. It's not going to produce anything that's constructive.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and I. and I. I just. That there wasn't. A great opportunity for him to say I am. I am I. I just wanted to get laundry done and I don't mean to offend like he could have. Like, I you're right. I should have sent a text before doing something. Especially the second time. Like I could have sent a text before doing this. and that would have been the right thing to have done and he missed an opportunity to, to really come in and be like the like, like a reasonable person. I also, you know, if I opened up and I'll be honest, if I opened up a washer and I was in a I've only done had the situation with the shared washer like this in the. Dorm or or a single gender dorm? But if I. If I went into a dorm that both men and women in the laundry, I would be more hesitant to pull the laundry out if it I opened it up and it was, it was obviously a woman's laundry probably would hesitate a bit because I wouldn't want her. Like she may not want her things touched by this by by some random dude, and that could be really uncomfortable for her. And I think there's. that, it's reasonable to say, hey, you know. As a as a as a man, maybe you should pause here, because just like this may feel like this is going to feel like. I could feel like a violation to her. And it obviously did so like I would probably wait longer if I opened it up and there were obviously, you know, stereotypical female clothing versus stereotypical male clothing in there. I just think there's too many opportunities there to, yeah, across the boundary that would make someone else feel uncomfortable and. I'm OK with my feeling and comfortable with having to wait five more minutes or 10 minutes versus they're feeling uncomfortable that maybe something was they. Were violated in some way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. I think as a woman having had my laundry in the machine and maybe taken out and I can't remember specific instance, but I can I can absolutely affirm that's just it seems strange to have your laundry touched by anybody else of any gender. It feels it feels very revealing because of course the clothing. In there that other people don't see and don't experience unless they are intimate with you. And so I do find it problematic, even though I've been on the other side of. You know, literally this laundry has been sitting here for an hour or more. And so now we're not just in the middle of something and I can't quite put this down and I'm getting to it it. It feels more almost egregious that the laundry has been sort of neglected. And in those cases where I've waited, certainly have taken things out. And you know, you kind of do it with that, you know, I'm just not going to look at the entities and whatever else is in there and try to give them some privacy, but you really can't because you're, you know, hauling, sopping wet laundry out. And, yeah, I think it's problematic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think that I mean I would. I would have encouraged him to wait.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Knowing now that there's a group, knowing that we got along the way, there's a group chat like send a message to the group chat hand can do laundry if anyone's almost done, or if your laundry's gone off. I'd really appreciate if you came down and got it out or if it's there. Hey, shoot back a message here and I'll go ahead and pull. It. Out if you're OK. With it you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah. Great ways to do that for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Very important thing to do would have had the opportunity. Then she might have said, Oh yeah, or she might like that I'll be down in a minute. Like, can you wait like five? Yeah. OK. You know, there are so many. I often say like most ROM coms could be resolved by like a good conversation 8910 minutes into it and then like all credits because it's done that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. Right. No one would watch that because it would be too reasonable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, like, oh, we could all be grown-ups about this and I think there was an opportunity for, for, for, for him to act like a grown up and send a message. I think she could have voiced her complaint. Maybe without, as you mentioned, without the name calling. like, hey, that felt like a violation to me. I really don't like when people touch my clothing. It would have been right for you to waited longer, I think would have been a better response. But his response should have been to send the. Message to the group chat.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, and I suspect maybe, you know, she said. I didn't agree to nothing. Like, I get that you didn't agree the communities imposing this on you. and I totally. I totally can feel you on that on that particular point, but I do wonder if they had had a more productive, constructive first conversation. If you would have been more inclined to follow the communities, ask to send the message, right, if you're called a perv and you're made to feel about two inches big, like, that's not cool, and you're less likely to follow along with the established norms of your community. As opposed to, you know what you the way you said it, which was much more kind and polite and productive, he might have been like, yeah, alright, I'll send a message. Yeah, I do find it problematic that the community coached him. And what the what? The behavior expectations were of a community member and. He was like. Yeah, not doing that. Yeah, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like at the beginning he starts out with being kind of impatient when he could have had another better choices. Then he becomes a dick when he. Really gets snarky with the community, but the third thing when he did it a second time and then sent the message afterwards. Now he's firmly crossed the line into you're an asshole cause that was a fuck you that was A and that's and it was laundry in there and I took it out this time again. So whoever it is come down here and get it like that was a that was a that was a dick move.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It was absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So like there's no that was unequivocal. His response was was was definitely in the asshole territory, but he really gets unequivocal down the road. So let me. Michael has something to say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, now we're. We're, we're.

Host: Michael:

Let's let me let. Me ask you something really quick that comes up in this from from the feedback and I'll I'll get into what the Internet says, but one of the things that ended up being a very interesting kind of side conversation. Question is, how long do you wait like 5 minutes? Is it 10 minutes? Is it 15 minutes and there was a lot of discussion about you know how? How can you know? Like when does that clock start and so like if you had to put a number on that like what is the socially appropriate length of time to wait?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

10.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, how many? 10 minutes? I'm total. That's what I was going to say too. Damn. I wanted to be different than you. I think 5 minutes would be my preference is just a good community member, but 15 feels like too much, right? And five is not a reasonable expectation. Expectation. You've got parents that are living in buildings like this and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

10 minutes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Lots of other things, I think 10 minutes if you're. If you're in that window, you should get some.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Grace. Yeah, I could see. I could totally see myself throwing a lot of laundry and going upstairs and cooking dinner. I got something I got like, I got. I just throw the pasta in. I don't want to go downstairs and do that. Let me. Let me let me flip the laundry or let me flip the laundry after I throw the pasta and I got. Now I know I've got 8 minutes. Whatever. Like I can do that I can totally see that I think 5 minutes is not enough, but by 15 minutes you should get you down self down there and do it so yeah. And that to me seems very reasonable but they definitely need to add that feature because they could it's connected, it knows when it stops it would be very reasonable and then they can set a community rule. Listen at 10 minutes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But this is so easy. This is the miss on the app.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nobody touches your clothes until 10 minutes. But at 10 minutes. It's on you. I think that would be a very reasonable Community rule. I'm setting it right now. For them, yeah.

Host: Michael:

I. I like it. Yeah, they they.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's their new official. Rule and whoever wrote the app, fix the damn thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you. Because they could, it would.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Be I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. A techie person. Like that but. If you know that it stopped and you sent a message, you know when the message was sent, it would be very easy functionality to add to an app like that to know. How long it's been, yeah, right.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. and I would, I would go a step further. I mean, clearly there's communication between the washer and dryer and that app. So maybe the door stays low. Until 10 minutes after something like that so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Except for the person who has the app.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's really great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, like that a lot. And then once it. Then once it unlocks your fair game.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, but it was I loved. I loved seeing the little nuanced conversations about like what? What is enough, you know. And when does that clock begin? You know, so if you're up in your apartment and you didn't notice that your.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh man. Bye.

Host: Michael:

Laundry stopped 10 minutes ago, but you react within 5 minutes of that time. You know, like that clock begins at different times, and anyway, it's really difficult.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

5 minutes of when you’re having lunch when you notice your laundry is done. Yeah, that could be an hour and a half later.

Host: Michael:

To pin that down. Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's not cool. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And the somebody defending the poster. Said one thing we don't know is when this happened, like you mentioned, people worked 9:00 to 5:00. If you happen to have the day off and you went downstairs at noon and there is a laundry, you know, there's laundry in there. It's a safe assumption based on everything you've told us that perhaps that's from last night and somebody didn't get it out. But again. Kind of playing the assumption game it’s hard to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And my assumption was that were actually doing it during a higher traffic time. Because clearly this was the only washer available and the other nine washers were occupied and probably currently running. So this said to me that were probably working on an evening or a. Weekend here, when? When?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Evening and weekend. So yeah, I mean, I just, I just this so underscores how how much, how many opportunities people miss to make a positive assumption or even a neutral assumption as opposed to making a negative assumption. And I guess I what an what an unfortunate turn of events here this was. That you know, dude is impatient. And then then the names get thrown out and then and then he responds really negatively and harshly. And then the community responds negatively and harshly, and everyone misses out on a great opportunity here. I don't think he was right to take laundry in the 1st place. But you know, I don't know that he was an asshole for doing that. But you know, you could have made a. Choice. But then everyone just sort of acts unkind. Now, the original poster, by the way, is the biggest is the asshole here for sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So we're into the ruling phase of this discussion.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh. I'm yeah, yeah. Alright, let's Michael.

Host: Michael:

No, that's fine, absolutely. I mean, I mean absolutely, Dan. So he's an asshole. Yeah, we're.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You can ask.

Host: Michael:

Where are you at?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I agree. I think everyone sucks here, so I'm going to I'm going to pass that out. I just think he sucks more than everybody else because of the big fuck you that he gives and how he handles it after sort of being corrected and his hostile first volley with the, with the community. He had an opportunity to kind of keep it a little bit more aboveboard. He missed a number of opportunities, so I think he's the biggest asshole here, but everybody sucks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, I think I agree, I. Think everyone missed an opportunity? The to make a positive assumption every missed an opportunity to at least be kind and respectful in a community. But he was the biggest he. Was the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And I do think again, social psychology tells us how these humans are going to behave, because with that level of anonymity in a group chat like that, like you show up with a name but not you're not really known. And so it does become sort of safer to air.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About your grievances and less than kind and polite ways on these kinds of forums. With that, with that assumption of anonymity, and we know that when you're anonymous to an individual, you are more inclined to hurt them with that increased distance between you and the others. So I really do think there's ingroup.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Out group stuff going on here and then there's stuff that is supported in the literature about our willingness to hurt someone at a distance.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, absolutely. Gosh, we can go back to, we don't we're going, are we going back to Stanley Milgram in the 1950s? And the stock experiments sentence of killing the guy? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, absolutely. Like our.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He had naturally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not really. Nobody was actually killed in that experiment. It was just good actors.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We've got two children, great experiments to read about, though, but we've got that piece. We've got the, the, the tragedy of the Commons, which was my favorite thing from when I didn't sleep through my sociology class, this idea that everyone thinks that they're doing their fair share. And everyone thinks that they're only taking their fair portion. But if everyone takes their fair portion, you run out. Early and if everyone pays in their fair share, you come up short and nobody is going to screw it. That's the most fascinating thing is nobody. When you have the group check. No one is trying to screw anyone else, and everybody thinks they put in their fair share, but you always come up short. And you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Happening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And everyone thinks they put in their fair share, plus some because they're kind. I just find that to be such. A fascinating phenomenon. And everyone thinks they have this much use of the washer entitled and. and we make these assumptions that really aren't like we think. We're being fair or not?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

So this one unlike some of our other ones was much more divisive on the Internet. There were lots of most people pointed to initially. He's not the asshole for moving the clothing, like that's fine. Most people were like you should have waited. You should have given them 5 to 10 minutes. Some people said 15. But not the asshole for moving the clothing. You're an asshole for how you reacted and then behaved. And the fact that you then repeated the behavior again really solidifies the fact that you're an asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. Well, we agree. We agree. With the Internet this time, that's actually.

Host: Michael:

Remarkable. Wonderful. Some people did say everybody sucks here. A few other people said not the asshole, and they were definitely in the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is.

Host: Michael:

Wordy and in fact several people commented that they were secondary accounts of the original poster, like coming in and like feeding stuff in because they were created relatively new and they're burner accounts best possibly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, so this. All like came in in China on his own thread. To defend himself.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And they because they cited like specific things. And anyway it was, it was kind of funny, a bunch of them been deleted now. So that's one of the things I love about the Internet is just kind of wild. It can be like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But if you got to defend yourself that way. Yeah. Not OK, dude. Yeah, I think we can. I think in this case, we can agree with the Internet pretty, pretty soundly that, yeah, not not cool, not cool.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective consciousness of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Truth can be stranger than fiction, so stay true. Stay strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And stick around next. You know, please, like, share, follow all that stuff. But we're going to be back next week with another really. The interesting one, and I say that having actually no idea.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because we don't know ahead of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Time, but I'm guessing it's going to be super interesting because Michael is great at picking these up for us. So yeah, tune, tune. Tune back. Know. In next Wednesday.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And as Dan said, please follow and share Veritas views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. As always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here is the bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Gale. Gayle, you've got a photo like or drawing in your office like it's an older black and white picture, or it looks like an older one. Is this black and white? What's the? What's the scoop with?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That so I assume your your picture you're talking about. The picture of the nurse. I'm a psychologist. Why do I have a nurse nurses picture?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes. Why do you have a nurse in your office? If yours like thought it. Yes, I didn't know it. I didn't know who it was. Honestly, I'm like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, that is my. Right. Yeah. No, she she's. That's my mum's mom. She graduated. That was her nursing school. Graduation. Yeah. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We show the picture to everyone if we sit through all this on YouTube, grab the picture.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, this is my this is my mom's mom. Lots of reflection there. Sorry guys. That was her nursing school graduation photo and I keep it in here one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because I think it's. Quite beautiful. It's rendered slightly, but it's probably faded with age and I love the fact that my grandmother was having a family starting in 1944 and she worked as a nurse. And women didn't work outside the home, let alone necessarily have an identity as a, you know, as a professional. And she maintained her identity as a nurse until she died, when she was 90. and I just really admire that as, as you know, kind of a really strong female role model. So I keep her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Excellent. That's really cool. Thanks for sharing.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thank you for tuning in and tune-in again next week. As Dan said, for another riveting am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with me today is and really most days is my partner, doctor Daniel Kessler, whose intellect is matched only by his wit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks, Doctor MacBride. Looking forward to another interesting conundrum for us to pick apart.

Host: Michael:

Great. Well, welcome both of you for the newbies out there. If you don't know, what am I? The asshole is, in short, someone post the scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. And that's what we're going to help determine. Neither Dan nor Gayle have read or seen this before. So let's go. Today's prompt is. Am I the asshole for making my daughter choose a different restaurant for her birthday meal other than the one she really wanted?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, this is hard as a parent. Sometimes kids pick really crappy choices.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's like, no, I'm not eating. There you have like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Any choice? OK, we should probably hear what the choice actually was before we. Start weighing in but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure. But you know, I mean, judging books by its cover, that's, which is not something we would ever do in our therapy offices.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Never.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You want to hear the. Full story. So let's get the full story.

Host: Michael:

I do love the knee jerk reactions, though. It's always kind of funny to see what you guys immediately think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That I mean it is something we struggle with in, in, in, in therapy as well. I mean someone comes in and they start with something and you're like wait, I've got to hear the full story I need to. I need to really hear them through and I think that's a really useful thing. Do something to practice or practicing it here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Oh, oh, good. I like that. That's what happened. Excellent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good. Go ahead, Michael, please tell. Tell us a. Story.

Host: Michael:

I'll give you the rest. OK, so this is what it says my. I guess the poster is 39 year old female. Her daughter just recently had her 17th birthday. Her husband, who's 42 male, and I told her to pick out a restaurant that she would like to take her to for her birthday. She chose a seafood restaurant. We'd never been to before and looking over the menu I saw that the vast majority of the dishes contain shellfish. There were a few fish on trays as well as some surf and turf, but there were only a couple non seafood dishes. Our Sun 15 is deathly allergic to shellfish. He can't stand fish. There are only a couple dishes that he could actually eat. I didn't want to take him there because I knew that he really wouldn't enjoy. His meal, and I was worried about cross contamination. I told my daughter that this restaurant wouldn't work and that she'd have to pick a different. My son said that he would be fine just staying home and that we could use the money that we would have spent on his meal to order him a pizza instead. But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. Although 15 year old boy is that that, that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's like, oh, I thought we need to stay home at.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The time, yeah, that math that does that does math. That doesn't matter. Yeah, 15. I've having been a 15 year old boy once like, eat a whole pizza and stay home alone. Might be better than going out to a nice restaurant.

Host: Michael:

That tracks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. OK.

Host: Michael:

And then there is, because then the husband also insists that since it's her, their daughter's birthday that she should be able to choose the restaurant of her choice. And since the sun would be fine staying home with pizza and video games, that's what they should do. Here's the thing, though, we can only afford to go out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's more to this. Though, isn't?

Host: Michael:

Every so often as a family, when we splurge on a restaurant meal, I want both of our children there. Insisted, and my daughter chose a different place and we had a nice meal as a family. But she is still a little salty that she didn't get her first choice of restaurant. Most people I've asked Sam, run, but again we can only afford to go out every so often. Is it so wrong that I wanted to do it as a family? My daughter still had a nice birthday meal, but am I the asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, I think I start with there's a lot of black and white language here and you know, both of us really listen to that. When our clients come in our office and start talking about these situations and we are really in black and white land here. And I think I would really want to explore those shades of Gray for this family. You know, there's some really salient points that need to be taken into consideration that sons definitely, you know, definitely don't know what I want to say. What that allergic. Yeah, definitely allergic. But I was anyway. And then, you know, there's also the financial constraints. And I'm really glad the poster put that in because my knee jerk reaction was take the daughter out. Just the two of you, and then send the rest of the family. To something that was more amenable for everybody, but clearly, she said. That's a constraint, and I and I, you know, we really need to take that into consideration when talking with people about what their options are, is considering financial resources.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I mean, I really appreciate what you said there because I don't think that we're. Like this is not a black and white issue. I mean and I'm a little irritated that kiddos picking a seafood restaurant with a younger brother who's so deathly allergic. And I’m not so divorced from my psychoanalytic training back in the day to wonder about the sibling. Stuff going on here. I mean, let's go to a seafood place that that. So I struggle a little bit with that. I'm not going to call her an asshole, but I do like I got to wonder about some family dynamics here and maybe I'm reading too much of it because that's what I do for a living. Right. But like. Your little brother is, you know, could die if he catches the wrong life. Food here and. It doesn't sound like the daughter flipped out, though.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, and she can't be surprised. But you know, it feels a little limit testing on the daughters part. You know, she's going to put some bait out there to see, you know, what's up. What? What? Get some updates here. And at 17, this is this is absolutely appropriate. You know, from a developmental standpoint, we see, you know, our teenagers from about 15.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On when they start leaving their home to test those limits and really pushes as parents, and we're really annoyed and we want to say things like teenagers are absolute jerks. But the reality is teenagers aren't jerks. And I tell this to my clients all the time and really they're going through a phase of life where they are trying to become their own people and they're trying to. Separate and that sort of jerkiness serves the purpose which is to get some emotional distance from the parents so that they can leave the home where they've hopefully been nurtured and cared for all of these years and do something that's really hard so, you know, I understand why she's maybe testing this limit. Psychoanalytic training aside.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It.

Host: Michael:

But it's such a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Push pull for teenagers. You know they need their parents. They don't want to need their parents. They get annoyed by their parents, but they still want their parents support and caring. They want to get away from them and still want to have them there. It's a really difficult time and it totally doesn't surprise me that you picked a restaurant that that maybe she knew was going to be up, that was going to be problematic for the family. Well or even.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just really special. You know, if she's got a brother with this allergy, they don't go and get seafood. He may have been explicitly told like, don't order seafood and have it come to the table. Your brother could, you know, could have a reaction. And so 17 can feel really special. And then the cusp of being 18. I really want to go somewhere that feels adult.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There we go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And, you know, even just exercising that kind of bone, if you will, is it maybe why she's choosing that we, you know, we certainly don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Totally. and as far as you know the, the moms wanting to set some limitations you know we do birthday dinners in, in my family and we don't necessarily allow any choice for anything because there may be places that some family members. So like I mean if moms an asshole then I guess I am. Do because I've we've I've certainly said no to a reject at a restaurant and said, you know what, there's nothing there that this family member can eat or was willing to eat and give it that. It's just not like, let's do this as a family. I think it's an opportunity here to do some teaching around, you know. Teenagers can be very egocentric, very focused on self, and here's an opportunity to do some teaching around when you're getting together with a group of people. Being aware of the dietary needs of each member of the group is important, even if it's a special day for. Yep.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. Oh, absolutely. And it is a birthday celebration. And so you don't want to say, well, you're uninvited because you can't eat here and as much as that 15 year. Old may have. Really, genuinely enjoyed staying home? It's just sister's birthday and it sounds like it's the family tradition and expectation like you and I both share with our families. You're coming along. This is not a pizza night. Where you get to, you know, play on your devices and consume pizza and run around the house, you know, risky business style.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I know I firmly I really believe that that there's this is again we're out of the black and white but into the into the teachable moment here like you are going to throughout your life getting together with people for special occasions how do you choose how do you choose food for the company lunch how do you choose food. For get together, for, for, for a kids birthday party, how do you choose how do you choose a venue for whatever and how do you pay attention to the needs of everyone you're inviting? Yeah, within reason. Right. So I'm maybe we're. Maybe we're not supposed to do this yet, Michael, but. I don't think Mom's an asshole at all here. I mean, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really like. I’m good with it. I'm a little annoyed at Dad for being kind of pushy on this. Wait, was dad? Pushy on this? Yeah, dad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What was death reaction?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really this about Dad?

Host: Michael:

Dad was with the son. He was like, oh, he just wants the pizza. That's fine. Like, let's just do that and we'll take her out to seafood.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, it's a family thing. I don't think that's an asshole, but I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I'm like, dude, it's a family thing. Don't leave your kid at home, even if he wants to be left at home, like because teenagers often want that. But sometimes, but you, you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really want to foster that, that that. That family thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I think Dad needs to have had a an opportunity here to Co parent with his partner. He needed to kind of come back. They needed a game plan. He knows the family tradition. You know, I think he's taking the path of least resistance on this. And you know, maybe because money is tight, you know, it's not a terrible idea to to let him stay home and give him what he wants and not have him suffer through something he doesn't enjoy. You know, that kind of thing. But I really do think there was an opportunity for those partners, those parents, to come together and come up with the United decision. No, we do this as a family. So we're going to choose another restaurant. I think he by. Sort of agreeing with the 15 year old puts this mom in the position of looking more like an asshole, looking like they having.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think that's maybe where she's walking away, feeling like, oh, maybe it didn't do something wrong. My partner doesn't back. Me up here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. So husband needed to needed to, to work better on this. I'm. I'm not happy. With that and. The you know the 15 year old again, we're we're back to teaching teachable moments with with teenagers and yeah, I know that right now, at age 15, you'd rather have a pizza and play video games. Just killed by yourself in a house that you're often like, too stuck with other people, that you don't necessarily want to be. But this is family time. And we're going to find something to do that we're going to be able to do as a family. I mean, there's there's data behind this and families having meals together and it's spending time together and positive outcomes later later on in life. So I'm I while they don't necessarily want it, I’m going to be a little bit pushy on this and say, hey, let's. Find a place that you all can can we can have a good family time together.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I absolutely, I agree. I might go. I think maybe often do a little bit further than you do in the in the ruling here. I would say Mom is not an asshole. Dad sucks the daughter socks and only because sometimes teenagers suck like it's a soft you know but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, daughter. Daughter and son, like daughter and son and husband all like suck a little.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bit I don't agree. I don't think they suck. Sucks like. I'm going to leave him and mom out of this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He's going in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You are welcome to disagree with me and we. Often we often can. But I think the sun doesn't suck because I really see him in a position of saying look here I have a an in the Gray solution. Go and I'll stay home. I love solution focus, so maybe This is why my he's got my heart a little bit. He presented an option. It's not the right option for the family, but I don't think it's a sucky option. As long as he came back and said OK, you know, if you pick another restaurant, I'm happy to go like he's like. No, no. Then I might say he sucks a bit more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's it's. It's weird because this is so open to interpretation. It could be that this, like my, my, I think the sun sucks a little bit. Here it comes from the but not in the bad like in the way that all teenagers often do like. You know I would rather do this thing than and if my teenagers are listening.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm talking about you. So I mean, I love my teenagers. They're wonderful. But they push back, and I did too. As a teenager. This is this is normal. and I'm well, I guess what we don't know here and I think we're interpreting the teenagers behavior differently. You're seeing this as solution focused. He's trying to. Like find a way for everyone to be happy. I'm seeing this as a bit of teenage boy push back. I get to do what I want this way and a bit more self-centered. I don't know which one of us is right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right it would. Be interesting. The mom might give us a bit of a flavor of that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right it. Kind of underscores the need to like really listen, because if the sun is doing what, how I'm interpreting his behavior to be. Then we need to push back on him if the tons interpreting your behavior we need, like, that's great, son.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And let's do this as a family, but we don't know and that's. Just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And there may be an opportunity to teach the sun. I talk to my kids a lot about using your voice, right? Don't just let a situation roll over you. If you have a position or a need, make that known. You don't have to be pushy with it, but you do need to be assertive. And here's how you're assertive in life. Maybe this one needs a little bit of that permission. Now if I got into my dynamic training, I might look at the position of the sun here and why he's not voicing his needs and what role that what he believes in.

Host: Michael:

With.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The family? No, I mean, I guess we could. We can continue down this path of of of misinterpreting. Reinterpreting the son's behavior. Maybe this is maybe he's not. Uh, this isn't. You know, I could be like, oh, this is her special day. And you know, I'll, I'll. I'll do this. Like he may be in a in a really. Tough place with. This. Yeah, I'm willing to stay home and have a pizza. You all go have fun. Like that pink.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't want the terrible seafood allergy and bringing everybody down.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I could see this is some negativity towards self in which case now we're going to react totally differently. This I'm not really. No, you're important. You're valued. We really want you there. We're going to find some place to do this. Like we don't know what's driving the son's behavior. And that's going to you're going to have to dig out if we're working. If were working with this family to dig out. Whether this is? Teenage dickishness whether this is. Solution focused or whether this is sort of a negative sense. Of self driving behavior. Or something else entirely?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Underscores. Excuse me. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was just going to say it underscores why we don't give advice. Really assholes advice because we don't know those elements and people coming into our offices know these INS and outs and we get a brief snapshot in a few moments. Like, just like, here's her reacts. Put some some ideas on the table and let someone make the best decision. Based on all of the information that they know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And what I would really want to do sitting down with mom in my office would be like, what are all the possibilities for your son's choices here, like to explore all these possibilities and see if we can't tease out the best reaction possible?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So maybe we don't have enough info here for the.

Host: Michael:

Unlike unlike.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sun, but we have. Judgment on the other members of the family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We’ll pass judgment on them, yes.

Host: Michael:

Unlike both of you, the Internet was very decisive. They knew all of the things, so they had no problem.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

People on the Internet often know all of this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, even the Internet knows exactly what to do. No, this is the problem. They're they're they're certain.

Host: Michael:

They, they totally. They totally jumped on the mom and it was decisively. You are the asshole, you know, this is the daughter special day. It's the especially if you can only afford to go out sometimes. She really you need to spend the money and the way the daughter wants. The Sun offers a nice alternative. They did not think about the possibility that he was being self-serving and this was an opportunistic like oh, I can get pizza and stay home. That was not on the radar at all and everybody really piled on the mom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Host: Michael:

Everybody else in this situation is very reason. Table the father, the son. You know, the daughter asked for what she wanted. You put it up as you can choose any restaurant and then you shit all over it. Now the outliers where everybody sucks here. So those were your two possibilities.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wow.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The reality is, I mean the hosts and I have two children. And once a year, they have birthdays and they sometimes ask for things, but I don't want to give them I as a parent, I'm not obligated to give them everything that they want. And so, sometimes as parents, we make choices. Sometimes those land well, sometimes they don't. Quite frankly. But you know, that's the nature of. Kid, just because the daughter wants to go to a particular restaurant as her sort of celebration or gift doesn't mean that's what you give her. You give it an opportunity to choose, but it's not sort of that blank check. I mean, what if she chose a really high end restaurant that the family really couldn't afford, even for the for the one outing? You know, I'm thinking of a particular restaurant in town that is seafood. But is pretty high gala and I don't think this family is going to probably be visiting that seat. Restaurant. So I think the Internet is wrong in this case and I think the other the other option that comes to mind when I think about gifting to my children is to think about maybe this meal as maybe two members of the family, not the birthday celebration is the gift. If you really just want to go for seafood because it's really a delicacy in a treat or something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe you say let's do a day just a parent and the daughter and I'll take you there. But that's her gift. Instead of giving her something, you know, physical and material. It's an experience and a meal.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we have and we could do a whole podcast on experiences as gifts versus things as, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I love experiences versus things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I’m I'm a huge fan there as well of experience gifts rather than thing gifts. I think we did some some social media about that in the past but I. And I think this could. This is also one of those questions that might stratify by Democrats in, in, across. Graphics like I wonder the. I suspect that 20 year old me. Would have answered this different than almost 60 year old me answers this question. Well, I think 20 year old. Me might have sided with the rest of the Internet on this like it's your special because you know at at 20 years old I didn't have. I hadn't had children yet. I certainly didn't have teenage children yet, and I've now had the experience of opportunity to have teenage. Children and then have two children now. and have had that that that I view the world differently today than I did 40 years ago, and I could really see it demographically, this breaking out where I, I wonder, I may I may ask my 18 year old about this one later today and see what he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thinks about it. But I suspect that this. And maybe I'm wrong, but I do wonder how much this might break down. So often we see things differently at different stages of life.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, that's. That's a really good point and I don't know what the average age of, you know, readers are of this particular form. So maybe that's what we're what we're getting reflected back here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or maybe we're wrong. Internet is. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Probably not. Five months.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Too highly trained psychologists.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That exactly we. Yeah, we got. Like like 50 years. Experience and like we both graduated from the 23rd grade, we must be smarter. No, we. No but. But you know what? We may be losing sight of. You know, I want to remain open to the possibility. Like I'd be interested in reading some of these comments down the road.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The average.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And seeing whether they might persuade me of. It.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, I think it's really important to pause and take the opportunity to potentially be persuaded. I don't know that they would be persuaded on this one, but I'm willing to be open to the possibility that. I'm wrong, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To get it right, not to be right.

Host: Michael:

And. And this is a great opportunity to to say our web page now has a contact US form on there as well. You can certainly let us know like let us know what you think you know, where do you? Weigh. In on this issue.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Excellent. Wow, you're idiots. You know, I'm shocked.

Host: Michael:

And and. What did we miss? So, yeah, absolutely. Let us know that kind of stuff and it will add them. It was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'd love to hear that, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Hilarious. How many of the? Quoted the original post saying all the people I've asked said that I'm wrong and they quoted that. And they're like, that's because you are. You're an asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mother probably reaching out, looking for, you know, warm and wealthy arms and just reassurance that she is like, how big?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or. You know what? I'm going to. I'm going to spin. This one a little. Bit too like is. It great that mom has friends and people in her life are willing to push back on her like so many people. Like they tell their friends.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. OK. You want to do that spin? Going.

Host: Michael:

No, no, please.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Please no. I wanted to spin all of your skin. I thought this was great. You know, Mom is also willing to be vulnerable enough to put it out to the Internet, which is not a known for being kind and cuddly. Really. And so she was willing to get some feedback on that and so way to go, Mom.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no, I mean and. And I'm I really am happy that her friends are willing to push back on her. Guess so many people like. Like I you know, I asked my friends and they all said that I'm right. No. OK. Well, there you you know, it's nice that her friend said to her. Hey, you're wrong. I think her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Friends are wrong too. Penny, everyone thinks we're wrong, Gayle. For you and me, we'd love to have you back. Come from people who listen to this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow.

Host: Michael:

I'm going to defend.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And like, yeah, you guys are wrong.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, I'm going to defend the Internet as not being soft and cuddly. There's a lot of cat videos and photos out there which are definitely soft and cuddly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fair enough. Fair enough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There are soft and cuddly places on the. Internet, I will agree.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank you both again for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As we talked about today and truth can be stranger than fiction, so stay true and stay strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Join us again next time where we wade through another intriguing am I the asshole thread. And please let us know what you think through our web page.

Host: Michael:

Double and please follow and share veritest views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends and as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip.  Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here is the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK so. I think as long as I have known you, you've had a book on your shelf in your office, and I believe the title is something to the effect of parenting. I'll join no fun, but that would be appropriate to talk about today. I'd love to know more about the book.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I'm going to. I heard this author speak and I thought she was terrific and I bought her book it. I'll admit, it's one of the books on my shelf that I've not read. I have skimmed it, but she, I remember in hearing her speak, she studied some research that said that. Your and I just your net level of happiness goes down. When you have children like, it's like the people who are choosing not to have children are often happier than those of those who choose to have children. I'm so glad I have children. I really AM. And that's. But it's an interesting phenomenon that we want kids, we have kids. They bring us great joy. But they reduce the fund that we have, they reduce the, the fun and enjoyment that we have individually as, as, as as a human beings. And I find that just to be a fascinating thing that we that we want this so much and that and that they give us such great joy, but also reduce our level of fun so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it's there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I haven't read it. Yeah, but you know, it's funny because that research really tracks with the research around marital satisfaction. Right. Your marital satisfaction quickly when you get married is quite high. And then when you introduce the child into the marriage or a baby into a sitcom, right. Actually, with the storyline goes down and I often explain to people, it continues to go down until K plus about 18 years or last K + 18 years, because then that child is typically launched out of the home and marital satisfaction plenty. Enough goes back up and I think it. Has everything to. Do with the fun that you're having. Leave your partner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

When I when I've taught intro psyche and I'm teaching it. I've asked him, what do you think is the happiest time in a couple's life and almost the universe is like. When the when? The kids are born and things. Like that, like, yeah. You don't know. You're talking about the happiest time is right now. When you all are out of the house because there's and there's. Data to support. That, and they're like, what, like, yeah. So it really is like like that is that that is the happiest time in a couples life is was when they're empty. Pastors again, if my children are listening, I love you very much. But I won't mind it either. When when you're when you're all grown and on your own and living happy, satisfying lives and what is it?

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Called when we gathered last night. Like, that's going to be a strange time too. You know, we're both starting to ramp into some of that and experience that. And so yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, there you go.

Host: Michael:

I was going to add 1 quick thing, which was Seth Rogen. Often gets asked about having children and he was like fuck, no. My wife and I have an amazing life. Look at me, I'm laying around smoking pot, making ceramics and doing whatever the fuck I feel like if I had kids it would 100% dampen that fun.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're not wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He's not wrong. He's not wrong again. I love my children. He's not.

Host: Michael:

Wrong indeed. All right. Well, thanks so much for tuning in tune-in next week for another riveting am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and today with me is Doctor Dan Kessler, whose intellect is only matched by his wit. Or is it the other way around?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh thanks probably. Thanks I look forward to your to your insight Doctor MacBride and love jumping into these. So Michael take us away.

Host: Michael:

Well, welcome both of you, of course. And to the newbies out there, if you haven't followed us before and you don't know, what am I? The asshole is. In short, someone posts a scenario and ask. Readers who's the asshole here? And that's what our doctors here are going to help us determine. Neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this before or read it. So let's go today's prompt kind of made me laugh when I saw it, and it has one of the very in my mind, best Internet responses, just the way it's free. So when we get to actually hear what the Internet. Look forward to sharing that with you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Teasers, teasers. I like that.

Host: Michael:

So this this the headline. Am I the hassle for telling another mother our children aren't close anymore due to intelligence levels? So let me let me read the prompt before. Say more my daughter.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know what? I maybe, maybe you know what, before we get into it, I sometimes it's fun to guess. Maybe the mom's like, you know, my kid isn't as bright as their kid. And. Yeah, no problem.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Probably not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Probably not. All right, buddy. I think he's the asshole, by the way, that's, you know.

Host: Michael:

My daughter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is sort of predisposing, but I think sometimes the little heading really does lean toward me how like click bait, sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. All right, all right. Why don't we not judge by? To cover and we'll and I'll. I'll hear it and then reserve judgment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then determine she's the asshole. She is. Oh, Michael, you should. You should really put a thought of our misery and tell us what's the story.

Host: Michael:

All right, so my daughter, let's call her. Sophie used to be best friends with cat spelled with Kay. If that's relevant. They used to be best friends in elementary school, but ever since middle school have started to grow apart. The school split the kids into advanced and normal for math and science. All other classes are still together, my daughter. Got placed in the advanced group. Cat got placed in the normal curve, no big deal. They still see each other in school. They were still close friends until group projects came around. There have been multiple group projects and kids get to pick their partners. Kat and Sophie usually work together and that is where the issue started happening. Sophie would get really frustrated that the work cat did simply wasn't correct. And I told her just to turn it in without fixing it. And if she got a bad grade on that assignment, we would deal with it. After that, Sophie went through a period of time fixing stuff after I told her to stop doing group projects with her, so they stopped doing group. Together and their friendship kind of ended. So now they're not friends anymore. It's Sophie's birthday party and invites were sent out. Cat wasn't on the invite list. My daughter made. I got a call from her mom asking why she wasn't invited. I invited her or I informed her. They aren't really friends anymore. And she said to invite her anyway because this was just a spat. And that it might end soon. I told her the people invited were the people. Daughter chose and I wasn't going to overrule that. This went for a while and they came to a point where they really weren't friends anymore. And I ultimately said that it was due to the intelligence levels and tried explaining the group project issue. The mom got pissed for accusing me for calling her friend dumb. I never said that she called me a jerk, and now I'm wondering. Am I the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, OK, so I really we're caught up in some language here around the academic trajectories of two different kids and it is feels it can feel really good as a parent when you know your kid is tracking in these high potential and academic achieving kinds of courses. We forget that most of the students.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are really appropriately placed in this very, you know, great, appropriate track and to call it normal, as if it's something lesser is a bit problematic. I think we have. A point of view issue here that that it’s really unfair.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, I'm and when I heard this first my thought was this the mistake people so often make the mistake of honesty. Not that we should lie necessarily, but it doesn't mean that telling the truth is always the best choice. Like I know it's a terrible. That sounds like a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Terrible thing to say. Well, I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sometimes not, not switch flying, but like. This an opportunity that, that, that and there and the reality is maybe it has to do with other factors too. In addition to this, that this mom has really pinned it on this one thing and that's her truth. And her truth is that my kid is brighter than that other one. That's five not friends anymore in the projects, but there might be lots of other. Truths that have led to there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, right. I mean, these girls maybe need to speak for themselves. And by the way, maybe these girls need to speak for themselves and use their own voice instead of having the moms fix the problems and tell them how to marry. If to guide your kids. But sometimes guiding your kids is about letting them speak to other adults to get input and information. Mom sounds like she is trying to have a lot of. Then put over who the starter is doing group projects with and frustrations around inaccurate information. Quite frankly, that's not the moms job. The moms job is to support the teacher in the classroom with the work that's being done. Your job is not to override or fix that. I really think Sophie needed to go to the teacher and say, hey, I'm. Struggling with my partner. Here I know this content and I know we're about to turn in something that's not accurate. Sophie needed to do that at the school level, not at the parent level.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And Mom could have encouraged Sophie to. To do that and cat and Cat and Sophie could have potentially had a conversation around, you know, like when mom called when, when Cat's mom called. Sophie's mom. I mean, do you do you say at that point? And the question I have actually you say, gosh, I don't. You know, the girls don't aren't necessarily close. Have you talked to Cat about this? Have you have has cat cat and Sophie talked about this like that. That's kind of two people talking about two other people and trying to interpret what those two other people are thinking rather than let those two girls work it out for themselves or talk to each other and recognize. It's the you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Know and this isn’t, you know, these middle school girls. This a time when friendships are in flux and they uproot and they change. And not necessarily for permanent, permanent right. I mean, you make new friends in middle school. But by the time you get to high school, you're making new friends in college yet again. So. I think we're also potentially overreacting to this friendship kind of dissolving or fading, and it doesn't mean it will be a forever thing. These girls clearly have a long history. Other but as you said, dependent on just intellectual differences, I mean there may be some social and emotional differences. There may be interest level differences that are just pulling these kids a bit further apart than where maybe proximity serve them in younger years.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I think as the as the parent of a of a middle school girl right now, sometimes friendships do go into.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm I'm really troubled by. There's a lot of things I'm troubled by in this I'm troubled by the mom pinning it on intellect. And then and then and then and then then saying that even even if it were true, right. Even if it works true.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. You know her kid was like a candidate for Mensa.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I mean so that, that, that that I'm trouble with that I'm I'm I'm troubled by not seeing seeing this as a middle school thing like I'm troubled by the mom and moms talking to each other about it in a way that's not kind I'm troubled by a lot here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then probably by Cat's mom calling up Sophie's mom and saying, hey, you need to invite my daughter. I mean, that's problematic as well in terms of that ask, you know, what might be, hey, I'm just noticing that Sophie's birthday is coming up and we haven't seen that birthday party invitation we usually do know what's going on like that might be a mom to mom conversation. But then to insist that cat.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He invited anyway, is extraordinarily problematic as opposed to that mom. Then turning to Kat and saying, I know it's really hard to to feel like you're not invited to this year to Sophia's party and helping her deal with those emotions at home because you can't be invited. To all things I think as parents, we teach our kids this FOMO like, oh, my gosh, you have to go because you've always gone and it's always a part of the thing you do. And then we wonder why our kids have that same reaction to other events where they are so afraid of missing out. We've taught them you can't be missing out. You can't miss an opportunity. Here. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want hear thing like I want Cat's mom to be saying to her. Gosh, I wonder what's happening that you and you and Sophie aren't friends anymore. Like, is that something happened between you or there are there? Be difficult is like, here's an opportunity for Cat's mom to work with her daughter on, like, understanding conflict and potentially resolving conflict or understanding that that, that, that, that sometimes our best friend at this grade is no longer our best friend. Not because they're, but because we we we grow and change and develop and the things that we think are cool. We're 12 aren't cool. 14 and the friends we have them were 18, aren't necessarily friends. We're gonna have them 40I. I think there's a lot of missed opportunity here on on everyone's part. Yes, the I'm I'm really the I mean there's so many. Like started beginning, like we know cats. Mom could have handled way better with her daughter. Absolutely. And then she called up and said why didn't you invite Mike? Why didn't your daughter invite my daughter? You know, there's an opportunity there. Even if she is getting her. What about hey? Our daughters used to be such close buds. Yeah. Do you have any idea what might be? Going on between them, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like which I've actually. Fielded that phone call or text message from another parent. Hey, our kids used to hang out and play together, and now I'm noticing that. Not, you know what happened, and my answer was absolutely. Here's what happened, OK? And I think I provided that parent with some additional information that they didn't have and that subject was over. Kids have to figure out the conflict for themselves.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and hopefully. That's delivered with kindness. Yeah, it's delivered with late. Yeah, they're they. They've had a falling out about whatever. That's what I'm hearing, you know. But it, but there's a, but there's an opportunity for cats mom to have handled this with like, hey. And. And that's true of anything like, if we're handling it with. I'm really curious. Yeah, it's open, but. And then Sophie's mom, like, had the opportunity to go, gosh, you know, the girl drifting apart and I. Know that I. Mean she could even have gone so far as I know that Sophie and Kat have had some issues around group projects that, had there been some conflicts there like and left it that she and I would have rather said, you know, the girls are having some conflicts. I don't know. They need to work it out but. It could have been. Less. There's so many opportunities to be less judgy and Blamey here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, yes, I would have loved to even just say, you know, the girls are in some different classes. And they're meeting different different peers and having some different experiences. And so, yeah, this year doesn't look like last year. I don't think you need to pin it on intellectual differences. I think that that seems a bit fair. And like you said, judgy, and sort of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Blamey and more than that, like I also even taking this a step further, let's even if we assume let's say so. I'm so freaking. Really brilliant, right? She's gonna be travelling through a world where she's more intelligent than others. Potentially she has to navigate that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Does did you have to do it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, because it's different. Mainly it's a difference. Yeah. And. And if you have a if there's a difference there that you have to learn how to navigate. I mean here Mom is taking an opportunity to teach her daughter how to navigate the world well. And she's taught her how to navigate the world poorly. And I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Sort of this elitism.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't mean to shit all over both moms here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I mean, I think Sophie's in a tough spot as a kiddo who is. I'm gonna go ahead and just presume she's as bright as mom. So she is. And she's working in high potential classes. And that's wonderful. And she made me a really academically strong student. She is. I don't see. I see an opportunity for her to learn how to be gracious about this. I see an opportunity to to learn how to bring her peers along and to teach them and to really figure out how do I, as a great person, navigate these group projects when there are differences in how we approach it and the accuracy of. And our learning styles as opposed to kind of coming in with this one, all or nothing kind of approach?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And we we've talked about this before this the different perspectives, people take the different lens people take on the world. And when when Michael first began introducing this and we were both like, Oh yeah, we know that moms, we like my kids smart smarter than yours. It's parents are simply not objective. You're never objective.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

About our kids and so like, like, we're we're gonna work on the moms assumption here. And because their daughter is objectively speaking, then put in a higher level class. So she probably is brighter than the average bear. Yeah. At the same time like like we I just can't get away from the reality that whether you're a mother or father or a parent of whatever stripe type of parent you are. Your grandparent, your, your own kids like you don't have any.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Objectivity. No, it's absolutely lost and yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no. Yeah, my kids are always above average. Everyone's kids always average. Like all my kids are above. Average and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They they they come from Lake Wobegon, apparently.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's exactly exactly like. But I mean it's a it's a real, it's a real struggle to kind of recognize and this for me what this story is. It's so many missed opportunities.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It absolutely is for for each individual. However, the children just not knowing different. You know they don't know what opportunities they're missing out. Presume the parents would. Should could have learned these kinds of skills. So that it is a bit disappointing on the parents end of things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm this one to some degree makes me kind of sad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's a good word for it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know because, yeah, because they had, they had a chance to. They all had chances to teach the kids, and they all had chances to, to, to, to handle this well and have this go really smoothly, you know. I mean, yeah, it is a bummer that, that, that cat and Sophie don't get along with used to maybe, maybe that'll change with time. Maybe that won't. And gosh, I missed. I missed. Heading with you while Sophie and Cat play whatever. Maybe. Maybe she doesn't. I don't know. But. But I mean, there's there. There are missed opportunities here that I'm that that, that I'm really bummed about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, but maybe not. Yeah, and you wonder, I at least I do often wonder about sort of the back story and how this has been building. You know, that often gets left off of these. And I have to imagine if we have this kind of intellectual difference from a very bright kid to one who's functioning relatively average to the school system, which many, many, many, many, many children. And not the great place to be. You also would expect that you've seen those differences developing over time. This not a new situation for this family, so. You know, when we think about the missed opportunity, this isn’t just a missed opportunity in this situation. This a missed opportunity over the course of time, even years, to see how these children are developing academically. You have to imagine there was. So if you started probably reading more complex or at an earlier age and some of these things where you can start to talk to these kids. About how they learn differently and embrace each other around those differences, but also remain friends without having to work on a group project together. Just because your friends doesn't mean you have to work. School together on these things one way sometimes to preserve friendship is to not do a thing together that might be troubling you and I both know holding good boundaries between between people is the way you preserve relationships. You and I have done things together, and we've been really explicit about here our boundaries because we want to maintain our friendship first.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And not let something else get in the way. And I think these girls again, when we think about a long term missed opportunity, that's a long term missed opportunity without putting that friendship first.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But the other opportunity here is valuing different skills. Sometimes the kid who is not, you know, the kid who might be average as opposed to this other brighter kid may also have greater artistic ability, may have greater organizational skills and you know, within group projects especially I mean I think about Veritas psychology partners as a group project and. And yeah, you know and each of us has a different skill set and we and we we what we try to do in any group project. Is leaning into the skill set right? If you've got someone who's more artistic, you're gonna lean into that skill and to the group project, you lean into the skills that make the most sense, and what a great opportunity. Again to work with Sophie on what skill set does your friend Kat have? If? You're gonna be. In Group projects and Cat's mom, again the OR for all the moms you're like or parents here to like be like, what are the skills that? These kids have that make them unique and special and wonderful that we can lean into so we don't. So hyper focus on this one aspect of intellectual ability that may or may not be the best marker of long term life success.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. You know, I think we, we forget to teach our kids how to celebrate other kids and what they what they bring to the table. You know, your points are really good one and I and I do see the challenge a little bit inherent in a group project at school because we're being graded on content. And so it may be that you know it may be that cat has an expectation to bring. Content for that she struggles a bit more with, but then you know, again I think there's an opportunity to work. The teacher around how do you bring cats content up to snuff in terms of what she needs to participate, but also make her feel like she's a valued member of that group project and team. And you said it well, I mean, life is kind of a group project, whether starting a business together or working on a science fair project. It's a series of group projects. That's why we learn the skills in school. So that we can use them outside of school. And I know that as a middle schooler, I think my kids and now high school sometimes roll their eyes at group projects, but they have no idea. About how important that skill is to be able to work with someone because it's very rare that you do anything just so low in your life or that you fully get to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Pick all your partners on your project, right? Oh, yeah. And. And as you, as you say, very well, even if you don't choose to go into a business with someone, all most of our work situations, our group project in some way or another.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Relying on I, I heard this great. I thought it was. A great talk. About how like there's nobody in the entire world who knows how to make a computer mouse like there's no one person who can make this, that there are so many different components, software, hardware, plastics, building design, ergonomics, glass. There's nobody. There's no, not a single human on the planet who can make this by themselves.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not one person.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And yet we rely on. Every day, and even something much less complex, there's probably no single person who can make this this particular pen, and so. So if all of life is a group project, this a this again this. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Missed opportunity.

Host: Michael:

So the Internet would agree with you for the most part, although.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let's give our rulings.

Host: Michael:

Oh, I'm. I'm sorry. So officially, we're where you at?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think both moms suck here. We angry, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Great. They the girls are the girls.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Also fine, they'll walk with their moms. But mom.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The girls are fine. They need to be. They need to be educated. Yeah. Both moms kind of suck here for different reasons. Both moms have an opportunity. Both moms kind of. I'm. I'm not. I'm not happy with you one. I'm not happy and I'm not even.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't suck here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like maybe I'm a little bit more annoyed. Well, no, because they're both neither one of they neither want them handled this well. No, though. Yeah, I think everyone. Everyone. So yeah, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't take multiple opportunities, both, Mom said.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. Both moms, both moms. We agree. Both moms suck. All right. Yeah. What the Internet say. Michael OK. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, and then maybe I should temper that response a little bit then because the Internet pretty universally like really 95% are squarely on you're the asshole for calling out intelligence and there there are some people.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They're not wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I mean I like my slider in one of the episodes we were talking about the slider and where on the slider of ashless is he small made probably a different slightly different points. I think they are over the threshold of asshole, but maybe not. To the same degree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm gonna egregious one is 1 is sort of malicious and mean and the other one is just like not handling it the best way she could so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm. I'm not gonna go with malicious and mean, but I will go with elitist and tongas social problematic to be a bit more in tune with that and it troubles me how elitist and tone deaf her comments.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Which you're right, maybe nothing malicious. Yeah, you're right. OK. Were I accept your correction, I think you're right, it's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What was my opinion?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, it's. But it's correct. Malice implies an intent to harm, and I don't think the mom had any intent intent to harm. She was thought she was thoughtless. So yeah, she. Yeah, I'm. I'm gonna. I'm gonna accept your correction.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The idea of mens rea.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Whole different episode.

Host: Michael:

Episode yes. So the one comment that I that I referenced liking and just to be clear like this isn't me liking the response, but like the language and I don't know it just it made me laugh. So this this how that comment begins. You're the asshole and in such a way that I worry the universe might collapse around you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As they say here in Minnesota.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wow, that's stronger than I would have put it. Just be that bad. I would have. I would have to go with that. She would have to have been malicious about it to be that bad. She was being thoughtless and you know, but and uncaring and but, but. That that level of ashless really requires that that that a person be malicious and cruel intent. Really. So I'm gonna. I love the comment, but I'm gonna vaguely. I'm gonna. I'm gonna not. Vague. I'm gonna definitely disagree with it.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. You know, a lot of the comments picked up on similar threads. There was someone in there who, like me, was a former teacher and said like group projects rely on different abilities and your if you think that just keep keeping your daughter with the highest performing people is the best situation for her, that's incorrect because. Even if she's in a place where other people are struggling, she has an opportunity to think about a way to convey that information and teach or educate, which reinforces her own understanding of that concept. And so that was really kind of interesting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like that comment because it also allows an opportunity to hear and learn from a peer who might handle it differently. And allow that content to sink in and allow her to learn that in a way that maybe she hadn't. So it's really taking an opportunity away from cats to not work with. Maybe those other, more high achieving students.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And taking an opportunity away from, I mean again so many missed opportunities here to to just, I again I think about those different things that we have stronger skills or weaker skills that I'm I'm like. I'm not a detail-oriented person. If you give me a job that requires a lot of detail, unless it's numbers, and sometimes I'm good with that. So yeah, but the but getting things I'm you know, so like I need to be partnered with someone who's good at doing the trees cuz I'm kind of in the forest, you know, and that's a different, that's a different skill level. Our different skill area and we need to lean into the skills of others rather than. Rather than denigrate their skills that for, for, for being different and maybe not worse, just different.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I definitely agree. Yeah, and. And then I mentioned like 95% clearly said you're the asshole, but then the 5% on there were much more. Everyone sucks here and talked about like you guys both did a really good job, I think of addressing, you know, what Cat's mom could have done or and all of those aspects so. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We can't make this stuff up, I swear. These are so strange sometimes, and I continue to reflect on the fact that the truth is stranger than fiction and encourage everyone. Stay your own brand of strange, but stay true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and join us. Join us next time as we waved through another. Am I the asshole discussion.

Host: Michael:

Now please follow and share veritas's views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in therapist. Office and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick, a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Diagnosis or treatment listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health. Issue please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So Dan, as psychologists, we can. To be collectors of pieces of paper, and we often have an expectation that we display these pieces of paper, whether they be training sites or licensure or additional certifications. And I've noticed you have an additional one on your office wall this week.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do I do I do I put. I finally put up my one from PsyPact saying that I can practice in like all the PsyPact states. Like you cans were like in like 40 states nationwide. But the state of Vermont has the coolest green in that in that nifty. It's like this. Like green logos cuz it's Vermont. Yeah. I am now licensed in the state of Vermont. Which is interesting because I've never actually been to the state of Vermont, but I can practice psychology there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's fantastic. Congratulations on that achievement this week or this month.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it's one of the weird things about telehealth and this one of those discussions that perhaps we can get into on another podcast like that for a psychologist to do telehealth, the client needs to be in the state. The psychologist licensed in. But the psychologists can be like in other states, unless they're licensed to this Interstate compact and then, oh, it's too complicated. But the bottom line is that there are a lot of folks who are licensed in states where they don't live or don't visit or are our end to end and. And that's a question.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that this really is reflective of what's happened in the last four years around telemedicine in general and allowing folks to have ultimate choice in their care and finding someone who's available, especially in more rural areas. And I don't know what therapists to person ratio is in the state of Vermont, but I have to imagine maybe it's not as robust as somewhere like New York. And so having another licensed. Colleges there is a wonderful thing for the people of Vermont, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I added it up. I've now seen clients in 21 different.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

States. Ohh wow. Three years, so that's fantastic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Most of them honestly, just like on like on a like on a vacation in a state that I'm licensed to practice in. And I bet if you sat. Down and actually wrote all the states.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Down there that you'd be well, actually, I didn't do that because when you renew that Interstate compact agreement, you have to then identify what states your clients have been in. And so I did, I started ticking. Though and frankly, I was falling asleep one night and went, oh, I missed one. I missed an obvious one. Thing this was gone for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I won't. I won't tell anyone. No one’s listening, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, well, it did my best. And it was. The best of my knowledge at the. Time and so do better next time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks for tuning in. Tune-in next week for another Am I the Asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Prepare to embark on a journey into the human psyche with our dynamic duo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would like to introduce my friend, colleague and business partner, whose intellect is only matched by his wit, Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And when I need a thoughtful voice of reason with a deep understanding of all things psychological, I go to Doctor MacBride for answers, which is why I'm happy to introduce her here. As my partner in Veritas and in this podcast. I am looking forward to your insights.

Host: Michael:

If you've never visited Reddit, you might not know what “am I the asshole” is. In short, someone posts a scenario and asked readers who's the asshole here? Dan and Gayle. Neither of you have read this or seen it before, so let's go. Am I'm an asshole for refusing to let my fiancée smash cake in my face at our wedding. So that's the setup.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just gonna interrupt you here and say. No, you know. Wait, what? Right. We can listen to it. Let's listen to it. But I'm already on board with. No, you're not the asshole for wanting for not wanting your partner to smash cake in your face.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Listen through.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That just might preconceived everything.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And our and our lovely host has already been subject to my opinions on this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Matter. I'm biased, I'm biased. I don't. I don't think that's cool. Alright, alright.

Host: Michael:

We should let them. Know. OK, here we go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I absolutely when we're in all seriousness like that is a big part of what we do in our office is take a moment to pause and listen to the story, because I wonder if there's more to it. All right, I'm gonna shut up now, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Right. I absolutely love my fiancé. We've been together for over 5 years, own a home together, have two dogs and live a happy life. We have had a rocky relationship at times and are definitely not perfect. He is the oldest of two brothers and sometimes when we get playful he will take it just the two tad too far and maybe push me a little too hard or tickle me until I'm frustrated. Like that as we started planning our wedding key off the bat, talked about how excited he was to put cake in my face. I was a little apprehensive about this, but he seemed so excited. I'm not having makeup professionally done, and I figured it is a moment of the day. So I said sure, as time has gone on, I've seen TikTok tragedies over cake in the face at weddings. And I've begun to get worried with the way he is. I'm worried he might take a little too far. When I started to feel this way, I talked to him and told him I would want to practice beforehand, to which he seemed a little frustrated about it, but said he understood.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sort of funny would have thought he would have relished this opportunity.

Host: Michael:

He promised he wouldn't get it in my hair or on my dress. But really, how can you control cake once you smashed it in my face cake? I have kept trying to get him to practice and he never wants to. He will do it without the cake. But never wants to practice with cake or whipped cream because he doesn't want it to be sticky like I would be at the wedding, I guess anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What’s wrong with that?

Host: Michael:

Every time we do it without cake, I swear he'll touch my hair, to which I call him out on, he started talking. Well, the topic with my dad and I mentioned, I really didn't want to do it unless we practice. Once again. He did it without anything and touched my hair. I called him out and my dad said we have whipped cream, so why not try it? I said, please be careful. Don't get it in my hair or my clothes. I showed him where I was OK with it going on my face and where I where he wanted. To do it. He put way too much on and I told him that's even too much. And then he smashed the rush in my face anyway. I guess I moved and it got all over my hair, eyebrows and onto my clothes. I immediately started crying and ran to the bathroom. He came in and apologized and cleaned me up and said I'm sorry. You just moved and I got it on you. He was nice and helped me clean up but. Ultimately, I was frustrated and said we're absolutely not doing this at the wedding. If you can't control yourself now, I said, we will see. If we do it, if we practice properly but not like we did recently, as of now, my answer is a hard no. Am I the asshole for changing my mind and rejecting my fiancee's desire to smash cake in my face?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not your wedding dance. We're not choreographing this. The idea of the smashing of the cake was it was cute and spontaneous. And it's not something that you can rehearse. And even if you rehearsed 100 times with whipped cream, there's no guarantee on that day it's going to look the same. What is what is going on with this scenario? It just seems to unravel with everything.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. The whole thing's awful. I'm sorry to say, the whole thing's awful. I mean, here's the thing, though. I mean, even if they were to practice this perfectly, the reality is that the wedding is an incredibly emotional time. People are cheering. You're cutting cake. You've maybe had a few beverages. This is really not the time. Be risking something that could really be problematic. I mean, the bigger issue here, I'm just gonna jump in Gayle, because I know you're gonna jump on this one too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm wondering if you're in the same direction I am my biggest.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Trouble with this holy shit boundaries. Consent. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

London boundary. Oh my God, she said no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, she she has. I mean, I think it is. It is absolutely critical for relationships to be based in a sense of being able to trust each other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Feeling of safety?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that. Yeah. And being and be safe. And that means that you that that that things have to be consented to and consent, you know consent it can't just be OK that's not consent consent for anything in a relationship should be enthusiastic if it's not enthusiastic it's not consent if it's OK I'm willing to do this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Even though. I don't like it. That's not really concerned.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Content at all. That's not not really cool, that's. Like coercion, which?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is it is. And and there's a real air of coercion in this whole interaction here. It's clear that there are times when she violates her boundaries in ways that make her uncomfortable. And she's spoken up. About it, but that isn't being respected here and I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I actually as much as I can agree with that she violating her own boundaries. You know, there is this sort of the socio cultural phenomenon here where especially women have to feel like they need to go along, be easy, you know, kind of suck it up and they will be willing to pass. By their own boundaries in an effort to conform to these other expectations that are, it's really dangerous. So yes, she's violating boundaries. She's she's passing by her own boundaries, too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm viewing this from the male perspective and. Going dude. What the right? Why would you want to do this thing? That your partner, your life partner, obviously is uncomfortable with. She's not going to find it funny. I've seen enough of these sorts of things go wrong as she talked about it. A setup here. There's a real opportunity here for this to be. A real unpleasant moment in a in an otherwise what should be of a wonderful day and to start out their their marriage together with one of the first opportunities for. Consent in boundaries as a married couple for him to, to not be willing to go along with that, and then perhaps in the moment to have this really be potentially disastrous because he's not willing to go along with this. I'm I'm I'm really troubled by. By where? His where he's coming from here. I get what you're saying. I don't know that I feel comfortable saying. Ohh you shouldn't. You should. You should stand up. Yeah, I don't wanna blame her, but I'm really annoyed with him right now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm not blaming her. I'm actually, you know, this is really much more about pressures that women succumb to social political perspective. This is not a victim blame. This is hey, women. Men and men. But we should all be aware of the boxes that we get put. Into and how? We behave and perform according to the expectations of those boxes. That's our responsibility.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, I know you're totally not. I know you're totally not blaming her. I think. I think I would worry that if I said, hey, she needs to set the limit here, that it would feel too much like the dude.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, no. Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm blaming her and I don't. I don't want to go down that path.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it feels like she tried to set a limit right? And so we. Want to respect that and I would love for him to really attune to what his partner is saying and really hear that she is reluctant at best and wanting to rehearse this, which is really her soft no. And to be a really I think carrying an Intune partner, he needs to Start learning for her soft nose. As she learns to vocalize, know it a lot or more. Kind of firm way. I'd love to see both of them kind of coming together a little bit more around their different communication patterns, who they are as individuals and who they are going to be in this. In this marriage, right. I mean, they're already in a relationship, so I don't. The piece of paper and the ceremony isn't really going to change that, right? The Organism of who they are in this relationship as AS2 entities coming together has already been brought into the world. I'd love to see them work on this as their as their area of growth as a couple. Get it right the first time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But you know, growing the other over five years, you'd hear this. You're gonna disagree with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Me. No, no, no. I'm not actually want I want to. I'm. I'm all like jumping in here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Cuz I wanna scroll. Back to something you said about a minute ago. Ohh. OK were you? Said that, this is her soft no, and I do think that's a really critical thing for couples to be aware of. Sometimes we know something is important to our partner and we're not comfortable with it and we want to say no, but we don't want to be the. Bad guy, we're. Her partner's feelings or her partner's feelings, right? And so the soft nose. Offer. Yeah. And I think especially for for women, that's more likely to she's more likely to come up, come up with a soft note and he needs to as part of their relationship. So making their relationship strong he needs to be on the lookout for the soft now. Yeah just if she's offering a soft. No. And he can hear that and accept it as a hard no or or translate that. My my partner really isn't into this. Like, this is not what she wants to do. And even though she's offering as a soft note to validate it and say, OK, this clearly isn't something you want. Can we just put the brakes on here? Right. And I want to respect that. That's amazing for the relationship and empowers her to be to be more clear with her now and really recognizes like it, part of that being in tune with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your partner, right and what he may find that he gets in the long run are more enthusiastic guesses when she can trust and feel safe to offer the soft nose and then lean into. Clearly what seems to be his sense of adventure and play and fun, and I love that he has adventure play and fun in the relationship because that is critical to the health of the relationship. So he clearly carrying that thread through and he can get more from her and she may soften up and liven up a little bit if he if he's. A little bit more in tune to the soft nose.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love what you said there, because what what you're saying is if he, I'm just gonna repeat it because I and I'm gonna, like, take make it my own. So whatever. Yeah, but just this idea that, like if she feels safe saying no, she feels safe that her boundaries are gonna be respected, she's more likely to in the moment of like is this a yes or no go. You know what.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, go for it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He's gonna respect my boundaries. He's gonna pull up if I ever say this is not OK, so I'm gonna go forward because I know I can trust. Yeah, but if I don't think I can trust him, I'm gonna put a hard stop to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It, yeah. And so dynamic through the relationship. But the thing that you know that that they're writing about and and I'm gonna go back to what you said. I don't even know 10 minutes ago. Is this is? An incredibly special. Day and I am concerned that they're trying to choreograph something like crumbly. Cake to keep frosting hairdos that have even been, you know, even if she didn't hire anyone to do it. And she did it herself. These are her her pictures. This is her special day. And so while we've got a soft nail on the table, it really we really need to be listening to this in this day that she. Has likely worked, probably a year or more to plan. This is not the place to blow by this off.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now, and I'm just gonna and this may not be popular. I apologize to maybe I don't wanna apologize. I'm just not a fan of the cake in. The face thing anyway I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Agree. I mean, we had this discussion before our wedding and luckily we were on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It doesn't feel.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The same page like. No. Why would you do that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It doesn't feel loving and it it doesn't feel loving and caring to me, and I know that couples do it playfully and I put that in air quotes, but it just doesn't. It just doesn't feel warm and and happy to me it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your cake.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Feels kind of. I'm just gonna say this. It feels kind of gross to me when I when I see it and I don't apologize for judging anyone out there who had the cake in the face. And loved it. It just it. To me, it's a moment of and I'm aggression. Even that just feels out of place at a wedding and maybe people disagree, but I. It just I've never. When I when I when I go to weddings and they're doing. The cake I've always like. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't. Please. Oh, God, yeah. Oh, all right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Usually you see someone take the frosting and like BOOP on the nose or something which feels a little less aggressive but still like it can't get over the sticky on the face like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that would. I would. Yeah. Yeah, I would, I wouldn't. Be happy not. A fan either way on that one. So I'm just, I mean the whole thing is a hard no. But I think really. The crucial to this is the. Conversation of the two of them around boundary safety and consent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. No, I mean clearly you and I wouldn't want this at our weddings, but for those who do, then it does have to be about, you know, being enthusiastically ready and in agreement. This is how we want to navigate this piece of our of our evening and our day together.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And like anything else that where there's an opinion, there may be a couple out there who like they both. Love this idea and they can't hate to do it. And you know what? If you're both on board and you think it's terrific, great.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm sure there is. It's an extension for me of the thing that like it's just like hijab is the one year old smash cake, right? Even though this child is smashing it themselves and them, it's just it's everywhere. Like, what is what is with our section of smashing cake and putting it in hair and clothing and places. It shouldn't be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. The one year old Smash cake is adorable. I'm gonna. I'm gonna respectfully disagree with you on that one. I think the one year old smash cake and they stick their hands.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They're the child to the bath and they got cake all over the floor between the kitchen and the bathroom. And then and then you have the next cake, which is the 40 year old who puts on the dress and does a smash cake photo shoot. What is with our session when smashing cake?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ok. I think. I haven't even seen that yet on the internet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, you haven't? Oh, you must not be of over 40 year old female.

Host: Michael:

OK, I'm going to I'm going to reel you guys in, you know, really quick. So if I may, it seems like you are both squarely on the side of not the asshole and there's definitely a real.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, right. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Relationship work to work do as much.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, I feel like he’s. I'm not willing to call him an asshole, but I'm not real happy with him right now or being son. Maybe I am willing to call him an asshole. He’s being really insisted about something that his wife's not OK with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am struggling a little bit because I really want her to stop making these false runs at something she doesn't want. She keeps making these offers and they they're not genuine. She needs to stop making disingenuous offers and stick with what she wants and let her opinion rest and ride right there and. And just be clearer with him, it’s not. It's not that she's an asshole for saying no. No. What I really want to see, and I don't know that she's an asshole, but I want to see her be more clear in her communication with her partner. And I want him to understand hear that softer know and start respecting that and treating her with the tenderness that she's requesting of him. Perfect.

Host: Michael:

And I'll say Reddit, for the most part was 100% on board with you. You know, like the overwhelming response was not the asshole. In fact, many of them were like, this is a major red flag. Your you should be concerned about starting a relation beginning of marriage with this as being a thing that the few people who. Kind of waffled that were more on the fence, were it seemed like they're projecting themselves into the scenario where they were saying, well, you know, like marriage, you know, the woman gets all she wants in the wedding and like, this is the one thing he wants. And it's like, she doesn't say that in there at all. Like, it's clear he wants this thing, but it doesn't say he's not involved in the rest of the process.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and the argument doesn't hold up. Like if it's the one thing he wants, and it violates the boundary she's not comfortable with. Use your imagination. Like it doesn't make it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. No, I you know I when I when I when I hear a a man say the woman gets everything she wants at the wedding it just it just feels I mean it's gonna call it out it just feels misogynistic to me. I don't. I think it's more likely that I mean if it I should go by my own experience and not put all men in the same category. I just wanted to know what time to show up and what I should wear. And it's not that anyone else got what they wanted and said. I just really think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And my spouse actually had opinions about color and cake, and so he showed up and he had those opinions and expressed them. And sometimes my ideas.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I. I showed up but I. I didn't. I don't have a lot of strong opinions. About those kinds of things. No, but it certainly wouldn't be like, well, she got to pick whatever that. Just. I'm not. I'm not OK with that. That just feels that feels icky and gross, too. So never said that I feel icky. And gross about. That as well. No. Yeah, no, no. It's a collaboration. And sometimes the collaboration is we both want to decide the colors of the collaboration is you know what? I'm OK with whatever you pick now, it's problematic if she wants his input and he's not giving it, but that's a whole. That's another podcast.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or if he wants to have input and doesn't feel as though.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He can give it right and that's another discussion. If he doesn't like that an input into into things that the wedding, then that's something you should be saying to her. Like, I'd really like to have saying some things around this if he doesn't feel like he's getting it. But this idea that only she only.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The woman gets to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say no, I'm not in the.

Host: Michael:

No, no. Yeah. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of Reddit. Remember, morality is often Shades of Grey, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth can be stranger than fiction. Remember to stay true and stay strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we've got another podcast coming up next week so, so, so to then for more of this back and forth.

Host: Michael:

Stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in therapist's offices and the stories behind the objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Keppler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride at @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/Outro. I'm Kelley Buttrick, a video talent who just happens to be doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute. Therapist, client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health service.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation. So, Dan.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So Dan, years ago we started working together and I can't remember how soon into that relationship I noticed in your office you had a pack of Peacock feathers. Tell the story.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, I did this training. I'll give credit to. I don't remember the training, so I'm not. Gonna credit, but if you. If you and it, it works best as a demonstration, but if you hold a Peacock feather out and you try to balance it on your finger and. You look at. The tip of your finger, it falls down. But if you look at the tip of the feather up high, somehow your brain just like automatically does the. Regulation and allows you to balance that feather with incredible ease, and I use that with folks sometimes to demonstration on how simply changing your perspective, looking at a slightly different spot, maybe just a foot or two away changes the difficulty or ease with which we can do something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There. I love it. Yeah, great demonstration.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, to try it with you got. Feather if you got one. Yeah, but it doesn't work with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Other feathers? It's only Peacock feathers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Got it. They gotta be long.

Host: Michael:

Awesome. Thanks so much. We'll see you guys.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Next week, thanks so much. Bye.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'd like to introduce my colleague, longtime friend and business partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler, whose intellect is only matched by his wit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And when I need a thoughtful voice of reason, with a deep understanding of all things, psychological. I go to Doctor MacBride for answers, which is why I'm happy to introduce her as my partner at Veritas. And in this podcast. I am looking forward to our chat.

Host: Michael:

If you've never visited Reddit, you might not know what “am I asshole” is. In short, someone posts the scenario and asked readers who's the asshole here and readers let them know what their final judgement is. Neither Dan nor Gayle have seen or read the topic they're about to discuss, so they're hearing and reacting to this cold. And if you're joining us for the first time. Or simply need a reminder stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation. Are you ready? Let's try this one. Am I the asshole for letting my 17 year old daughter sneak out?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let's hear it. Let's hear it.

Host: Michael:

My daughter turns 18 in a couple of months. She came to me and asked if she could have the experience of sneaking out of the house. She told me who she'd be with, what she'd be doing, and when I said yes, but I did not tell my husband. Her stepfather? Well, she didn't put her screen back on the window, and when my husband noticed, he came to talk to me about it, I told him that I gave her permission to sneak out. He wants to punish her. I said no because they gave her permission. He is really upset and looks like this is going to ruin Thanksgiving. She is a good kid, currently has all A's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, she asked to sneak out?

Host: Michael:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think we. Needed that line in there but. Thank you. Go on.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. He's been in her life since she was 5, and sometimes we butt heads about parenting styles, but I just wanted to ask, am I the asshole?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Before we even jump into this, this is not about this. This is about this is. This is about we often butt heads about parenting styles absolutely and so much of what we see in our office isn't. About the thing. I think this is this is clearly about the previous 12 years of them budding has about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Parenting and I think there's a real complication here between not only just parenting styles, but parenting roles. You and I both know that step-parenting is different than parenting biological children or adopted children, right? It's a totally different role. And you serve in that role of step-parent.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And it's an interesting and confusing role because that step-parent is a parent, but at the same time often doesn't have and it really depends on the on the relationship. Sometimes that parent has that full parental everything is same as the biological parent, but more often than not the step-parent is sort of like parent adjacent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I think. You once told me parenting via. Yeah, right. The.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Other yeah. Yeah. You. Umm, yeah. You. You end up like would your mother be OK with that as a step-parent frequently, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like the example of your dad wants you to eat your broccoli. Like, right? I don't need you to eat your broccoli. Don't care. I don't get too far, but your dad's going to want this and I need.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To, you know, be on board with his expectation and that's the parent role. So often is more like the like the step-parent can be a full. Fledged parent when. It comes to the fun stuff. Yeah, but when it comes to the discipline, that's more. Challenging but that also creates a natural tension. If that step-parent can't, isn't there doesn't feel comfortable, or isn't because of the family paradigm comfortable with discipline, then then they end up sort of feeling like they can't do something that they want to be able to do and they're stuck.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and you know, nuances with all of this, I mean, our families are wonderfully complex, right? Because sometimes you have a step-parent and no other biological parent present in the child's life. And at other times the step-parent is also a second. Or excuse me, maybe even third parent, right or fourth parent. And so those dynamics get really complicated. And then I think you also have to consider the relationship with that non custodial in the moment parent right or or you know the biological parent that's not not present for the particular select, better word offense or problem.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Now if it's OK with our narrator. The reality here is that if this couple came in to see me, I would be going. Let's like I don't even wanna go into and we will, by the way, go into. Who's the asshole here. But I wouldn't even wanna go into that right away. I don't wanna start with how the last 12 years of your parenting been and what are the frustrations each one of you has experienced and what's been hot, maybe maybe strike that. What's been the good stuff about family last? Thank you. Yeah, I saw. The look on. Your face? Yeah, I saw you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Going to call me out on that? Yeah. Because you always wanna start from a place of strength. What do you think? Well, what are some things that you guys have navigated successfully in this parenting journey in this, you know, in a blended family, right? Then you build on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That right, cuz this absolutely is not the first time they've had this conflict. This is coming up over this one event, but it's absolutely not the first time that this conflict has come up with them around parenting and around which parenting choices they make. And the differences of opinion and stepdad wanting maybe wanting to punish or maybe want to reward and the and the mom have having some disagreement and I suspect there's also sometimes in the past where decisions were made, but the other one wanted to have input but didn't have input. And I'd want. To explore all of those after, as you say, Gayle, exploring the time. Than they did when. They navigated things really successfully and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, yeah, yeah. And I might even spend some time with them exploring that dynamic and the places they haven't gone where they wish they could go. Right and where they're feeling, maybe a bit limited and all to the end of this individual will be 18 very soon. Other children in the home. Where this conversation is going to benefit? Or do we just need to really more heal the loss and the sadness of what didn't happen between these couple as they were parenting? If this is the last child to leave than us maybe some of this just is more repair work than it is future problem.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Solving. Yeah, that's a good point. I like when I feel the need to. Like I wanna bring mom in and sit. Down and go. Is it home? I mean, do you have a kid together as well as this child? Are there other kids like, does he have kids that you've been step-parenting like, what are the dynamics over the years? And I think what you raised there is a really important question. Like what would be the goal? Are we looking, as you said, are we looking to repair something? Are we looking to change things? So, so you all do them differently or better in the future? Yeah. Or just want who's fault it is, which is my least favorite question when.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Couples come in well, I mean, the problem with that is, and I tell couples all the time and they know they get super frustrated with me. But you're both right. It's rare that couples come in where they're totally in the wrong. It's a matter of perspective. So the Gottman do this great exercise with couples where they have couples sit on either side of each other of an object, right? And it usually it's like a plant, right. And they ask the couple to each draw the plants that they see in front of them. So they spend some time just sketching this out and creating this. Still, life of, of a plant, right? And then they get a chance to look at each other's drawing. And they're very different drawings. And I used to have a plant in my office. It was great because the sunlight comes in from one side and not the other. So it's always really kind of scraggly and anemic on one side and really full and beautiful. On the other. And I would show couples OK. I wouldn't actually have to do the drawing exercises, but just look at this and imagine what you would draw. And then imagine what it would look like if you looked at your spouse's drawing, not from an artistic ability standpoint, but just how you've drawn the same. Plant and how you're both right. It isn't about creating right or wrong or you know, someone's winning or losing. That's frankly for trying to figure that out with probably lost the fight. It's really about understanding how your spouse is, right and how you can lean into their perspective of it while also negotiating on what is incredibly important to you in this particular. Situation. How do you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maintain that. Yeah, and I'm going to. I'm going to to do something awful and bring us back to the question because this is so much fun. But the question at hand was, am I, you know, who's right, essentially, who's right? And I think you, you really underscore that beautifully. They're both right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Certainly she should have told him. Like, hey, daughter came to us, came to me and asked about this experience. So I told her it was fine and that would have been a reasonable thing to do in that situation. As I see him kind of being miffed. But I also see her going. My daughter asked me to do this thing. It's not no one. No one's being harmed by it. Sure, I'm going to say OK. And I could see him not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Last 12 years, right? Is this like my daughter. I get to make the decisions as opposed to collaborating on our.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that. Parenting and that often is the that often is the co-parenting or biological parent step-parent or adopted parent step-parent situation. Them where they were the one parent feels the authority to make the decisions and go ahead, but I could see this happening in a in a in A2 biological parent situation where one goes. This is a totally reasonable thing they're asking and like in my own case I could see like just not even thinking to say anything about it like this is such a non-thing like.

Host: Michael:

Ohh for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh shit. Yeah, of course. That.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Makes sense. Yeah, I get it. Ohh for sure. The argument I would have with my husband about our two biological children would be you just needed to communicate, right. Like, I feel really out of the loop. If this happened, you know, and it was occurring in our house, I probably would have got along with it. Now I'm pissed you didn't include me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You didn't communicate with me. Yeah, but I love that. I love that the daughter here thought that she should go ahead and take the time to ask Mom. Hey, Mom, is it OK? If they sneak out and like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like getting called by kids at high school.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nothing happened that did happen. We wanted high school cheerleaders wanted a TP for whatever older kids wanted TP the house, and we got a call like, hey, we wanna TP your house before the big game. Is it OK? And I'm like you're asking my permission.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is the best and I think they're good kids. Yeah, they're paying. They're respectful and they want.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So nice of you to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To have that kind of dream of fun that probably you and I had, except we were considered naughty. Although I know what tricks you were.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I definitely. I definitely snuck out that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You want to be here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's for sure. And if my and if my kids are listening, I never snuck out of the house without.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Permission. You didn't. Apparently. You good permission and. And you know that reasonable very broad expectation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we'll call it that. We'll call. It that so?

Host: Michael:

I was just going to jump in and say so. It sounds like we're winding up. Dan, where do you? Where do you settle? What's your judgment? If you had to pick one of those?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't know that anyone's an asshole here. I think I think that there's some clear communication issues with this couple and I suspect there's some history here worth exploring and getting into that we're not getting. And I think that history might tell us a lot about. How this couple has navigated this and as Gayle said, this may be an opportunity to do some repair to work around how they've dealt with really a tough questions in the. Past I. Struggle to call anyone an asshole here. I think. I think probably better if Mom had told stepdad, it would have been a really cool thing and I and I think that it would be. And I want to know like, what's the history that's creating that strong reaction on his part? Like there's something else there. I think it might be worth respecting and honoring. That's something else that's there and trying to figure that out because this, I don't think this is about the thing. This is about other stuff. I could be wrong but. I think, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I completely agree. I don't think there are assholes here. I really would have liked to seen the mother do something different with her partner in terms of being more communicative and have a bit better plan between the two of them of how that dynamic is going to work. I also would love and maybe this is. A little controversial. I would have loved the stepparent to have created a bit more of a moment of vulnerability and use an opportunity for an ideal statement here. I feel really hurt that you didn't include me in this decision, you know, because that goes a long way too. Having that the. Skills for that kind of conversation. At home, before you ever come to our office. Right. You know, we can unpack 12 years of parenting, but that's a kind of a big job and lots of repairs to be done. Really. The those I statements are a great way to make some important headway in the hard conversations at home. I always use the I feel I need right. And if you can always front load that with the complement then you've got that. You've got fertile ground for liking and respect and you move forward with genuine, honest, emotional experience and a very clear statement of need. I don't like the word, don't in there because that does leave lots of room for things that it's not going to be right. So just I really heard that I wasn't included in this conversation. Next time, I just need you to let me know what's up so that. I don't, you know, lose my shit when I see the screen gone. Like I'm already pissed and now this isn't helping, right? So just let me know a little earlier. Shoot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Me a text. I'll be cool. Yeah, and underscoring that, I mean, he wanted to punish her. I want to punish her is what he was saying. Her right. She's saying he wants to punish her. You punish someone for doing something not supposed to have done. It sounds like he's angry. I don't know that his anger is directed correctly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just having that same thought too, right? I really think it's directed at.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Him about right, the anger and other. I'm not saying that you should be angry. I'm not saying you should be angry at her, but he is angry at her. He's sure her because he's having the thought she should have done that. And if you have the thought she should have done that or he should have done that. You're angry. So he's angry and kind of misdirecting this anger and part of the question we're talking about is like should he be angry in the 1st place and that's a whole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Appreciate you for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The thing, but he is angry and I think exploring that feeling of it and trying to understand it better is going to be a good, good stuff for this couple and I love your. I feel like that's a good way of doing this.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, the Internet up on. Yeah, they picked up on some of the things that you guys were talking about, but. I think I don't know often what I enjoy about the am I also post is they generally do a really good job on picking up on nuance and this one it seemed like people in general were really overwhelmed by how adorable it was for the daughter to ask permission to sneak out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is adorable IW was avoiding. I was avoiding the word.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You can only get that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Terrible, but let's just call it what it is. It's adorable, right?

Host: Michael:

So the overwhelming response was not the asshole. Your daughter was cute, blah blah blah. But the ones that were kind of interesting were the ones who said everybody sucks here because your daughter put you in the middle of the relationship and caused you to cause a problem the husband. Was looking as you said, somebody to punish and misplacing that anger. And the mother should have let the stepfather in. And so that was one of the arguments that came up a couple of times. I'm going to disagree on the daughter point. I think she went to the parent who is almost certainly the person who gives her permission things primarily and was fine there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can go along very mildly with Mom should have told step dad and a little bit stronger if stepdad should have been more chill about the plan. I don't think it's merits.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The middle of parenting, that's no matter if she's about to be 18. That is an unfair position to put that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Child in. Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't. I think she parent kids, kids, regardless of biological non biological step, adopt A kids, go to a parent. Her permission frequently. Sometimes it's because they're the parent most likely to say yes and sometimes just they're the parent who happens to be handy and around. Because kids aren't good at going, oh, I think I should wait until later to ask this question because they tend to be impulsive. Even 17 year olds. So I don't I just hold even home.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Everything with one caveat. Mom could have said. Hey, I think this might be an issue for. Whatever she calls stepdad. I'd love for you to have the conversation with him because I think it's best if it comes from you. Right? And then he and I'll talk about it. That would be the only thing where you maybe give her the responsibility of the voice to go to him, but not the responsibility to keep the relationship harmonious but more her relationship to her step-parents.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to respectfully disagree.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's OK, you do all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I just think that there's this is one of those situations where I wouldn't think that anyone would even think like I wouldn't think that even it's just one of those things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That like I'm just saying it is one possible option, but if you were going to say hey the daughter had any responsibility here, it's not for the marriage, but it may be to her relationship with her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That parent, but that is a mild baby in my camp, not a like you must do, or she should have considered it or anything.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. On a scale of zero to 10, that's like. A .5 to 1.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure I could, I can agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With that, yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

The last thing may be worthy of note was so many people also commented on just general confusion, confusion about who the father wants to punish and why, what the daughter would even be punished for. You know what the, you know why the mother didn't tell the stepfather? Like all of there were lots of questions. Asking For more information. But but you guys definitely hit on all of the important things I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, my biggest question isn't really sneaking out. If you get any kind of permission like it's now no longer sneaking out, it is now. I've got my mother's permission to leave via a window and come back at some unknown amount of time, right? Whether she got an extension of her curfew or something like that. But that's not sneaking out. There was no sneaking happening here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's not. Right. She's done nothing wrong. I jumping to even her except further. Let's say that we have a curfew here in Minnesota and it's a midnight curfew. At least in my town. And let's say I give my 17 year old the permit permission to come home at 1:00 AM. And it's possible I've done that and he gets pulled over on the way home by a police officer. I've given him permission to do that, and we may be jumping into a whole new thing, but I, but I don't think other someone else could be mad at him. You know, I couldn't be mad at him for being out when I've given him permission to. I don't think I'm still going to make him pay the fine because it's still his choice to be out. But I can't be really mad at him. For being out, I'm just going to have to have a milk out, but I would apply the consequence like it's still your choice to be out. I'm. I'm assuming there's a fine. I had no idea. None of my kids have ever. I'm caught after curfew. So yeah. Anyway. Yeah. She bottom line, she's got permission. No, no, it's not good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So it's not thinking. So now we go back to stepfather has nothing. To punish because she's doing Jane.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nothing to punish for, yeah.

Host: Michael:

That was wrong. All right, let's wrap this up. Yeah, I was going to say thank you so much for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of Reddit. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Stranger than fiction. Stay true. Stay strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And join us next time as we wade through another intriguing. Internet quandary.

Host: Michael:

Stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in therapist's office and the stories behind the objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing. Michael MacBride. Intro/outro. I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus Faddy, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist. Relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here is the bonus conversation where one of them is going. They asked the other about something in their office.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So, Gayle, you got you got a rock in your office. Tell me about it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The rock in your office, the rock, the rock in my office that sits on display and on a side table. It's rock and it says nothing is written in stone. I got one here from others day and I just. I thought it was. It's hilarious because it sort of reflects. Parenting right as much as you think that you're going to know how you're going to handle something, or you've handled it one way. There's always a pivot, right? So it kind of is reflective of. Of the challenge of parenting, and I think also just kind of what we've been talking about today is shades of gray, right? You know, when we when we expect something to be firm and we have to go through life and understand that it may, it may change. So despite this mantra being written in stone and I don't think anything in life is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really written in stone and I love that it's written in stone that nothing is written in stone, which is just I find that terribly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Using it, it's such a heavy rock. It's such a heavy rock I occasionally will use it and in a bit of a demonstration with individuals in my office, but I've had to be careful through the years because. It's really heavy and if you have any weakness in your arms or pain in your elbow, like I actually won't hand it off. But it’s, you know, it’s a rock and it's fairly heavy. So it's one of my prize possessions.

Host: Michael:

Thanks, everyone, TuneIn next week.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Mike MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I'm joined by a psychologist who's wit is only matched by his intellect.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Thanks for that, Gayle. I'm not sure if the compliment or not. Like that could be bad. Yeah. As always, I look forward to your thoughtful insights, Dr. MacBride.

Host: Michael:

Welcome both of you for newbies out there. If you don't know what “am I the asshole” is, in short, someone post the scenario and ask readers: who's the asshole here? That's what we're going to help determine. Neither Dan nor Gayle have read or seen this before. So let's go. Today's prompt begins with the headline: am I an asshole for naming my kid the same name as my sister in law's pet?

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Me laugh. I'm just. I'm waiting on the name. I hope he gives the I hope he or she gives the name.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hope it's not 3.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Or buttons. Is it going to be button? Because that would make you an asshole for an entire little reason. And my apologies to any listeners who name their children buttons.

Host: Michael:

Alright, well let me read you it's rather short. So this one just says I like the name my sister-in-law gave to her pet and I did not name my first daughter that same name since her pet already had the name. I recently gave birth to my third child, another little girl, and had decided to name her my sister in law's pets name. I announced it to the whole family, but now my sister-in-law is pissed at me for not letting her know about it before says I could have contacted it beforehand let her know about my decision as a sign of her. In fact, I'm not sure I did anything wrong here and I'm not fully understanding her. Being annoyed about a simple naming. Am I the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, first of all, naming is never simple any parent out there knows. Not simple, but barring that. So the question is, is this person the asshole for not contacting the sister-in-law? Before deciding on a name that's looking right, like there's many points and opportunities here for being an asshole. But the writer’s question is whether or not they're an asshole for not contacting the sister-in-law out. Of time to get that.

Host: Michael:

Right. I think it's, I think it's twofold. One, for using the name, but then also for.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Not reaching out ahead of time and say, hey, I'd like to use this name. Can I have your permission or something? I don't know. I mean, right, right off the bat, like communication here is a bit. I just don't have, like, name your name? Your kids. What you wanna name your kids to? To some degree. Like ohh. I saw the reaction. All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh yeah. No, no, no, no, I totally agree. I actually think we fall into this. And we see people holding back and not sharing the name because some, you know, we feel comfortable commenting on other people's name choices. How many times have you talked with someone in your office where they like, I'm not telling anyone name, including maybe your therapist because you don't wanna hear the feedback and their comments can actually deter you from something that maybe. You were really kind of had your heart set on.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

This is one of the many areas that I hear from pregnant women especially, and parents in general. You're people just feel. Like because they have had children, they have the right and opportunity to give you feedback and tell you what to do about your own parenting and your own child rearing. And I think that these are these are deeply personal decisions, what to do about stuff and you, you get, you get this constant barrage often of well, you should do this or don't do that or this is the right way to do it and it's like. Especially for young new parents, it can be overwhelming at times.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, I mean quite enough just to narrow the field down and then, let alone have to take that amount of feedback of a choice. I yeah, I think I understand. I totally understand why parents don't share the name and wouldn't communicate it with anyone. Now, that being said, if you're choosing a family name, is there some, especially a name that someone else in your family has already given? Is there some respectfulness that that? One might show by having a conversation. Let's say you have two kids in the family and both love a particular name. 1 uses it at first, but the other had wanted to use it. To you then you know. So here's a great example. Actually, my mom grew up in the family. Her father's name was John, and it was kind of important to him not to have a John Junior, but to have a John. So the name is. So John, to continue the lineage, said child named John Grow grow up and always wanted to do the same. Not have a John Junior but to named John. His sister had children, but way before him and named her first son John. We have so many Johns in this family. We have to use middle name to be named straight still to this day. But you know, it's kind of it kind of feels like the same thing. Like the sister I suspect knew that the brother wanted to use the name, but when I had to use this first would have been respectful for the two of them to have a conversation. Or does she have the right to just go ahead and use it? Because it's not like anybody was.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Named John. Yeah, it would have been. And at the same time. And I'm going. Oh gosh, cuz I realized that I just dissed all the people out there, told other people what to do. And I remember 25 years ago, a friend of mine who was a fourth and he was a fourth with the first name Sylvester. He can go by that first name, but you know, I'm like, OK, your wife's pregnant. Like, what are you doing now? And he was like, I'm not gonna make this like this kid 5th. I just. I just I the name Sylvester didn't work out for me too well over the course of my life I just don't want it to be my I just don't want it to my kids name and he and you know but I remember telling him Oh no you should do this. You should do this so here I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. You know, because.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We grow and mature in our recommendation from 2 1/2 decades ago.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Perhaps they can't. Perhaps that perhaps that's the case. Maybe I have. I've grown in today. I would hope that I wouldn't be like, but of course he was barraged with this question throughout his wife's pregnancy with their first child. Like, are you gonna name? Are you gonna go for the bit that you do this? And I don't know. We didn't talk about whether there's any family like pressure or anything like that. But there is. There is so much of that. So frequently, whether it's out there or not, and you know for the first question like I'm already there with like you don't have to tell people at a time with your name. Your like I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, that is a deeply personal decision. Nobody owns the rights to any names. I mean, this wasn't to copyright it somehow, but that would be a highly unique situation.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

But I remember myself with naming my youngest son, not my youngest daughter, my youngest son, because I had sort of picked out a name and then like. A good friend of mine, you know, grooms mini. My for? Yeah, well, you're not go down that path anyway. There. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But, you know, I mean, he named his kid what I was gonna name my kid and I and I was like, I mean, we didn't discuss and. Time. What did he know your name? Well, no, I had no idea. You had no idea. And I. Was like well. I mean, do I name my kid? Because guess guess. I mean, he was on his way. So like, it was like they were like, they're like a couple a couple months apart and he like, he got there first. You know and like, do I need my kid the same name as my good friend from high school? I've been known for almost 50 years, or at that time almost, almost 20, almost 30 years. But do I named the same name or I pick a different name? And yeah, I really like that. That really kicked around in my head a lot about whether or not to choose. And I ended up choosing a different name. I can't imagine, you know, my son. Any other name now and the name seems weird to me now is his name. But like I was, it gave it gave me a lot of pause for thought.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, understandable. I'm with you. I don't think that you owe anybody an explanation for the why. You're gonna choose the name. I think again. I think it's hard enough as parents, you know, especially if you're really working with another person. If you have two parents in the picture on a name, I mean, we went back and forth and used some rules and agreements. Just to be able to navigate it, you know peacefully. So we have some pretty strong opinion as you might imagine.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

And it could be. It is hard enough to navigate that naming thing just between a couple, let alone dragging in other family members by sharing with them. You're what you're thinking about. I fully support not talking about it with others. If you don't want to. If you want to fine whatever.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If you're willing to take the feedback right, you have to you to know that sharing it comes with a risk.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Now it what drives me crazy about this one, unfortunately, is because of the nature of the Internet, people desire to be anonymous. We don't have the name. Yeah. Want to know the name? Is it like is it like O or Steve or or, you know, you know, Susan. Or is it something like, you know, buttons or, you know, tater tot?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right. Yeah. No, you don't know. And I think more unfortunately here is this parents choice to name a child in the family where the pet is known, but they're, you know, the foil to that is the pets not going to stay with the family nearly. Hopefully. As long as this. Child write that name. It will be that child's name and then probably won't have that same legacy.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Yeah. I mean, unless it's like a, unless it's like a forgetting a parrot or something like that, you know, this hair 70 years but like if.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh yeah.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

It's a it's a dog or a cat. Chances are it ain't gonna make it past the, you know, past the kids teenage years at the most. I that's. A terrible thing to. Say, maybe I don't need to be. House the pet owners. But that's just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Even that by by by mapping this, the pets been around a while because the pet was already in the family at the time of her first child and she and this birthing parent, is disclosing at the time of their third child. So just buy some math here. This this animal has been in the family for some amount of time and is unlikely to survive. You know that much longer.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

I get stuck on the whole like people feeling like they can tell you what to do about your like. So like quick like my when my when my oldest was was newly born. I did we had this this doctoral, you know Doc Gordon and Doc Gordon and you know his wife was his was his receptionist and his daughter was his nurse and you know was a small town in southern Virginia and well Doc. Morning. And you came in the room and was like, I just gotta tell you something. You're gonna. You're gonna get lots of advice from lots of people about what to do with your kids. You make your own. Decisions and do your own thing and smile and nod a lot. And I thought that was really great. And I did that to him once or twice too. I'll be honest. I smell OK. Thanks. But I and I, I think that that we wanna do some research but like in the end it's the parents decision on how to do this and sometimes we decide we don't necessarily want all that extra feedback from people, especially when it's about something like a name. We're not talking about a medical decision. Their life and death decision we're talking about like how we're gonna call the kid and I just don't think. I just don't think other people should have that much input.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or feel like they should have that much input. So I think we sort of agree that the person is not an asshole. We're keeping the name quiet and wanting to name whatever it is that they wanted to name. And I think the other question is whether or not they are an asshole for naming it. That's name. Is that the second question then? And I think again we've kind of talked around this a little bit unless it's buttons or snicker or something like that like we give our pets human names and it's probably a perfectly I'm gonna go out this too perfectly. Appropriate name to name another human being and you know again. It's within some legal limits. You have the right to name your child. What you wanna name them? Now I say some legal limits because I have seen some court cases out there where parents want to name a child something and they have been taken to court and the judge says absolutely not. That's not appropriate. And his struck down usually make the news because they are names. That are really not appropriate to give the person to have to navigate. Life. It's always so many reasons.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Right, I get everything. I'm gonna agree with you there, but that, that I, I mean would it give me pause for thought if I really love the name that my close family member had for their pet, it would definitely give me pause for thought. In the end, you're not an asshole for picking your kids name. And I just. I struggle more with everyone's belief that they have a right to have an input. Into this into this very deeply personal decision between between the parents.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I would agree, I 100%. She thought about this. I mean, obviously she didn't go forward with the first kid. She's had some time, years to think about this name, and she's clearly attached to this name. And it's important to her. I understand that I have some names that I had picked out for my children, and I feel an attachment to it when I hear someone with that name, I automatically. A little bit of affinity for that, so I totally understand the birthing parents have the right to name whatever you wanna name. Be thoughtful about it. If you feel an attachment to. It go ahead. Head it would have been lovely if there was a relationship there enough to have had that discussion with the sister-in-law. That's a bit of an interesting nugget that we didn't talk about to even to even bring that up. And but I think she took the appropriate care and concern and choosing the name. And I think the sister-in-law is not appropriate and expecting to be informed. Consulted or have any input whatsoever.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Right, so I don't. Don't think I don't think anyone is really terrible here. I get the sister in law's consternation. I think to be honest, I think that's one of those things where you get annoyed by it. And I think the right course of action for the sister-in-law is to maybe bit be a bit annoyed. Just keep. Just keep it. I mean, it's maybe a controversial take, but sometimes you just keep your your annoyance to yourself and take a deep breath. And say I'm not happy about this, but this isn't worth a family. This isn't worth family strife over. Let's let's enjoy and celebrate the birth of the child. And let's be happy about it. Let's not ruin this or or not ruin it. But let's not cause problems for mom and dad. I think the sister-in-law's role there is to be quietly annoyed and complain about it with her, with their part. Or were other people and just let that go?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I totally I couldn't agree more, and I do wonder a little bit why the sister-in-law is so annoyed by, you know, I have a couple of Pets at Home. If one of my sister in laws turned up and said, hey, you know, we really loved this name and we've chosen it for our child. Go. Wow, it's really cool. OK, you know and and you know and and which one are you referring to. And I assume if you're referring, if you're speaking about that that name, then you're probably referring to your version, your human version versus my, my feeling version of the name don't think it would be that difficult and I don't understand why the sister-in-law is quite that annoyed. But I agree with you. She is annoyed and she is right to be annoyed. That's fine. Sit on it. Stay quiet. You were probably the only one that's annoyed again. Unless it.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Yeah. And. And honestly, if you and if you and Michael choose to have another child, you wanna name CJ name that child? CJ, I'm good with that. I don't think you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I appreciate that. Thanks.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

I thought you. I thought you'd appreciate that. Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

So normally I would jump in here and ask for your ruling, but you've basically given it there. It sounds like you started pretty firmly on the side of not an asshole, but then kind of as the conversation went on, maybe there are no assholes here that the sister has. Law has some rate. Or am I misunderstanding that Gayle we'll start. With you ohh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think the sister-in-law is an asshole, but I think she doesn't come out smelling. Quite the rows. Either you know I wouldn't, wouldn't say no assholes here, but I think asshole is too strong a term for this. A strong law. I think the birthing parents, she was on her rights. She gave it some careful thought. I wouldn't make the same decision, but I don't think she's an asshole.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Yeah, and I'm. I'm, I'm. I'm this time in complete agreement with my esteemed colleague, I probably wouldn't have picked the. Name, but she chose it. It's her business. I probably would be annoyed. Not annoyed. I wouldn't be annoyed. Let me say that differently. I get that someone can be annoyed at this. But again, I keep that quiet. I, I'm fine. I’m. I'm fine with her being mildly irritated. But I also think she should just chill about it. Everyone here. You know, and. And the mom like, it's her choice. So it wouldn't be my choice. But it's her choice. So fine.

Host: Michael:

Sure. Well, you probably won't be surprised that the Internet mostly agrees with you and we cover. Wait. Going through the comments, almost everybody was very staunchly not the asshole for the reasons of you don't own the name, there are only so many names in this world.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But you know, there's a lot.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Of names, there's a lot of names. There's only certain number names. You might like, you know, yeah, several.

Host: Michael:

Of them, several of them made the same comment about the. Child will hopefully outlive the pet unless they use the example of a Galapagos tortoise. I like yours of the parrot. That's a good one as well. Tortoise would be a strong pad that would be quite the to have in your house.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't know. The tortoise is a small example.

Host: Michael:

The one most thoughtful, I think dissenting opinion that the poster, the original poster comments that she didn't name. She liked the name immediately, but didn't use it for child one or two, and so clearly knew something about the family dynamics that that might rock the boat and. Then when she got around to child, three really should have had that conversation with the sister-in-law because she was anticipating a problem immediately and then later in life made a different decision. So that conversation wasn't an obligation, but it certainly would have eased things over now.

Kelley Buttrick:

It didn't complete.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. I mean I think that take has too many assumptions in it. I mean, was the assumption that the choosing the name was going to rock the boat or was the assumption that choosing a pet's name might be less than ideal? Like which part of that is it? About the personality or is it about choosing the name?

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I don't. I don't know that we can assume that.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

I'm gonna respectfully disagree with that with that person as well. Sorry we don't have much. We usually we have some disagreement here, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, it's not. That's her language, I know.

Host: Michael:

I love the I love the nuances of your conversation though that come out and unfortunately, you're absolutely right. She never reveals the name, much to the chagrin of the people on the Internet as well.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Oh, I'm sure there lot of. Like what was the name? What was the name?

Host: Michael:

That so many of the info requests were what is the name? How unique is it? You know, that kind of thing so.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

In my head I'm just choosing to believe that it's but. I'm sure it's not, but I'm. I'm just choosing to believe that his buttons and she still gets sicker if she wants to name her kid buttons, I think it's. A bad idea but. But well, I.

Host: Michael:

I love. A lot of the hosts who asked for info then shared examples of names like their pets, and one of them of course references. Indiana Jones, what we named the dog, Indiana. Which made me laugh. So where is that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, that's a fantastic example I've forgotten about that.

Host: Michael:

That is.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

That is a great example, Indiana. Dog, I would do my best on Connery here, but it would just disappoint. So I'll leave that.

Host: Michael:

Leave that and I do terrible accents, so I will. I will leave that as well and just say thank you both very much for another riveting debate, and I glimpsed into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth can be stranger than fiction. Stay true. Stay strange.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Thanks so much for listening. Join us next time as we wade through another interesting am I the asshole thread?

Host: Michael:

Please follow and share Veritas views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in therapist's office and the stories behind the objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler at @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride at @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro. I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing. A mental health issue. Please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus converse.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. Dan, in your office, I would love to hear the story of the teeny tiny trash can. I asked you about this.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

So I can I can tell this. Yeah, sure. So there is, there is a very small trash can in my office and it's like it is. It's about you can't see my hands probably in the podcast. But it's like. 3 inches wide, 6 inches tall and it looks like one of those rotating large trash cans that you see with the with the spinning top. You know that and yeah, yeah, the reason for that is that is that people often cry in a therapist's office. And, you know, when you walk into a therapist office, you know, you're gonna find comfortable chairs, a window, tissues. And that those 8:00, those are gonna be, you're always gonna find those items comfortable, chairs, tissues. When on the clock, people are crying. They wanna throw their. The trash can in my office is under my desk and counterpart access. If I reach under the desk, grab it and put it over the thing and. I asked our wonderful admin at the time. Like could you get me a small trash can to put next to the desk or next to the where the my client said so when they cry they have a place to throw their throw their things and I was just thinking about a regular office trash can and this little tiny, adorable cute little trash can thing showed up. And I think in the in the eight or nine years it's been in my office so it's actually put. A tissue in at once because it just looks more decorative than any.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Got emptied. Like who's responsible for that?

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Well, I found it. I'm like, oh, so I must have used this. I found a tissue and I had no idea how long it had been there. So. But that's why that little tiny, adorable cute trash can was there. So what do these days? We need a web page for this. So you put pictures like this on the web page. Maybe like picture that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh yeah.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Little trash can will be great, but yes. That's why the tiny use relatively useless to durable trash can is there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All you want.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Only as far as I go, I might gotten used more than that. I should check inside it and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

See if there's any tissues cause it looking bad suggestion box that I don't.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

It is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Put the post them. And then don't actually look at the.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Suggestion look that is exactly it like. You would never think. Oh, I should actually put a tissue in here after blowing my nose or crying. But that's what that's and I and I haven't had. I never had the heart to tell the person who got it like this is really not quit because It just seemed. Like they had put effort into it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There you actually. Haven't you haven't removed? It from its place. Either you haven't decided this is useless. I'm not gonna have it here to us. Ask you about it. It I.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

Just smile at it from time. To time it. It amuses me to have it there, so I just leave it there and I still to this day, if you're in my in, if you're in my physical office, we'll reach underneath the desk and get the get the trash can and lean over and set it next to the person. Who's crying and has the tissues so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Next time I'm in your office, I'm going to make a point. Of turning something away in the.

Dr. Dan Kessler:

I'm going to look at. It. Yeah, there's the story.

Host: Michael:

love it. Thanks so much for tuning in TuneIn next week for another am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Prepare to embark on a journey into the human psyche with our dynamic duo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would like to start by introducing my friend, my colleague and my business partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler, whose intellect is only matched by his wit. Or maybe it's his wit matched by his intellect. Sometimes. I'm not sure, probably both.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Probably not either. Probably neither, probably neither. Well I. But why when I need a thoughtful voice of reasoning with a real great understanding of psychology, I go to Doctor MacBride for answers, which is why I'm happy to introduce her as my partner in Veritas. And in this podcast Gayle I’m looking forward to hearing your insights. On all of this stuff.

Host: Michael:

If you've never visited an internet forum, you might not know what “am I the asshole is,” in short, someone posts a scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. Dan and Gayle. Neither of you have read this, So, let's go. Today I have kind of an interesting one here. I'm definitely interested to hear what your take is. The poster titled it am I the asshole for taking my necklace back from my mom. When I turned 10, my grandpa on my dad's side gave me a sapphire necklace. I'm in my early 20s now and have moved around a couple of times and eventually lost it. A couple of months ago, I was on FaceTime with my mom and saw her wearing the necklace, So, I asked where she found it. She laughed at me and said that the necklace was hers, and she found it lying around. The house. She would not believe me when I said it was mine and a gift for my grandpa telling me that he never bought jewelry for anyone and that the chain. Even turn colors, So, obviously it was junk. I got increasingly frustrated that she wouldn't believe me and was unwilling to give it back to me as it had sentimental value to me and means nothing to her. I even tried to prove it by naming the brand inscribed on the back of the pendant, but she still said it was always her, even though she couldn't remember where she bought it or how. She got it. For extra context, my mom and dad had a messy divorce, and she always hates my grandfather, who passed away less than a year ago. Now I get annoyed when I see her wearing it and avoid asking her again because I can't stand to argue with her over the necklace. I'm back at my mom's house now and I saw it lying on the bathroom counter, So, I grabbed it and put it. In my suitcase.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh man.

Host: Michael:

But I feel guilty knowing she will notice and ask me where it went, in which case I'd have to either lie or cause an argument by telling the truth.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No sense in no sense in adding in and not lying. Once you've stolen something. Lying, just stealing. All right, go ahead.

Host: Michael:

And then she just ends by asking am I the asshole for taking back my necklace?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh wow, this is layered. Now I'm going to go ahead and assume although she doesn't exactly explicitly say it, the grandfather that bought the necklace for her allegedly according to her story must have been related to her father. And then on his side, because she mentions this messy divorce. And So, I'm assuming it's not her father that made this purchase. Do you get that too down?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I. Yeah, I wasn't, I. Probably. How about that probably.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Probably right. Like I think that's a reasonable assumption to make for the rest of our discussion here. And So, this, this woman is positing that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You'll run with them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Her own mother is going to. Screw her over out of this necklace because of the messy divorce.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you know, I have a. Different. OK. Have a different take on this, OK? And it it doesn't lead us to great convo, I don't think, but like here, here's my thinking. People like memory is a funny thing. And there's all sorts of really great research into the reality that our memories suck way more than we think they do. And I suspect here that mom really believes that it's hers. Like, I don't think that the daughter speculation is Mom's doing this to screw me over because she's mad at So, and So, I suspect mom really believes that that necklace was hers and that she's not trying to screw anyone over. She found, like, oh, my necklace and put it on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, then this brings up the interesting like I can totally go with that, right? So, OK, So, it's it. Mom believes that and we've seen this interestingly, you know, even in clinical cases where you are trying to even assess someone's mental health and well-being and you get a really funny result on a test and then you have to sit back and go. We got this weird result and it's maybe because this person genuinely believes it, and that comes through and. And you're right, they just everything else looks clean, even though from the outside the, the, the individual. Can't be right like that, that that there is no. There's no. I'm looking for a word. I can't find it operating data.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wait, there's no mathematical for lack of a. It's gotta keep workout by this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, So, if Mom believes this, now we're saying that she's holding on to this necklace that the daughter clearly cares about, and the mother sees as cheap and throwaway. Right. This this chain is cheap and it even turns colors. And yet I am going to stand on this and not let you have the necklace that you're clearly interested in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right and this?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is where I have a mother who has jewelry and if I express some interest. In it, once in a while.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, should be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like you know, I don't wear these earrings very often. Why don't? You go ahead and take them, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, totally, totally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, there's an interesting mother daughter dynamic that's happening here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's there's a really interesting mother daughter dynamic here that makes me curious, but, but also, this reminds me of So, many times when I'm working with a couple and one member of the couple will will describe an incident and the other member will describe the same. And you know what? I'm. Going the same. And they it doesn't math out like there's no way it could have happened each way. And they tend to say ohh you're making that up to their to their partner. But the reality is that that is just the way their partners saw the event. Like, they're both being honest.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Ohh, absolutely. They're both being honest and they're. Both adamantly certain that their perception is exactly what happened. Even if you tell them, hey memory is So, bad that very often we can't even use it in court cases, right? Because it is So, notoriously not only bad, but malleable. Right we we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, like change it. Might, but if you'll forgive me, my favorite research did this. They like, like primed people with pictures of Bugs Bunny and stuff, and they sent them off to Walt Disney World and they came back and said, hey, how many of you met Walt Disney, met Bugs Bunny while you're Walt Disney World and like 40%. So, like 4 to 10 people said, oh, yeah, I. Met Bugs Bunny for sure and like there is 0% chance they could have met Bugs Bunny cause probably you know it's a Warner Brothers character. It might be like he'd be dragged off on site if he showed up on. At on any property or worse.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, so. Clearly it didn't happen that way, but people will, even when. And here's the part that's super fascinating. Even when confronted by the fact that there's no way it could have had people hold their beliefs. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's amazing, right? And they'll just be adamant. Well, yeah, I know that. You know, it's not a Disney character, but I saw a Bugs Bunny there. It was. Yeah, it's totally that's happening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it's it. It’s fascinating research, So, I suspect that mom really, really believes that this is hers. But I like what? Like, why do you think she’s clinging to this So, much when it's really when she says it's not an important thing to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. So, you know, I do think you know, either way, if Mom, if Mom is, is stuck in this divorce dynamic and that's what's happening or mom really believes that the necklace is hers. Now we have this dynamic of the daughter saying I'm interested in this and or this is mine and mom holding firm and saying no I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not going to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Share this with you. You can't have it. It's and I and I find that interesting. And then I also, find what's interesting here in this relationship is the daughter sees no way forward except to take the necklace back. Right now, daughter is So, invested in this, she is going to take it five finger discount it for her herself out of her mother's bathroom.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's yeah, I mean. Again, as we've talked about some other times in, in, in discussing these situations like I want to know, as you mentioned, Gayle, I want to know the back story like what is their relationship today, because the reality is you said like, you know I pulled out. In front of our oldest, we pulled out some jewelry that belonged to my mother, and she looked at that and went. I love that I want that and we're like wife and I'm like alright, you know, take it out and neither one of us wear this jewelry and she wears it all the time and it’s, it's wonderful and it gives us great joy. And that's what most. That's something special. That's what most parents are doing that situations go. This gives you a great joy. It's doesn't have any meaning to me or I don't wear it. Have fun.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, I think that it's an interesting choice and I do begin to wonder if the daughter has glommed on to this necklace and the importance of it So, much. So, now it starts to grow, you know, I think sometimes when we hold a resentment about something, something that was kind of important becomes really important. And the thing that we perseverate. One because and it just grows and grows and grows, right? So, I wonder how much of that is now happening to the extent where now she feels the almost the right to take it back out of her mother's home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I that. So, that part's leaning into that part. Like, what the hell?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Agreed. Agreed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I get that like it's very reasonable and we both agree that if if we were the parent in question, we'd be like, alright, here's the necklace. Whatever you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've had. It but like. OK, So, moms got there's some issues with mom. But now daughter like. She stole it. The necklace she had. I mean, whether it's hers or not, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and OK, So, wait. Does is it? Is it stealing? No, that's not the word I want. You know, in one scenario, she's honest with the mom and says I took it in another scenario, she says.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't know what happened, right, and I think there are different levels of of egregiousness with each of them, right? I mean it's not OK to take something out of someone’s home without permission, but it's also, really bad to lie about it. I got nothing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And they're not going to agree. I mean that they clearly don't agree on who who's it is. And when I say she stole it from the mother's perspective, she absolutely would have stolen it from her own perspective. She just repatriated it. She just like, oh, this was mine in the 1st place. I've simply returned it to his rightful owner. Through the repatriation process.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and she believes. That she lost it. So, she's existed some number of years without it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Believing that she lost it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And even more So, like this speaks to this, this, this, this certainly as you mentioned before speaks to the quality of the relationship and that like this necklace. The sentimental value of this necklace is So, great that I'm willing to further sacrifice my relationship. With my mother over it, yeah. Now this all assumes that mom just honestly believes it's hers and I and maybe that assumption isn't fair. I don't know. I don't know. I this is a. Is it stealing?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it is. I mean if we just find stealing is taking without permission, she did not have permission to take the necklace and it belonged in someone else's home. It was in her possession.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, whether she's repatriating that or stealing it like, I think either way, I do find that particular piece of the of this situation problematic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I wanna bring this mom and daughter in to our offices and say, hey, what's going on in your relationship like let's let's have a conversation about the past few years. And what's gone on since the divorce and how you're getting along and, you know, do they do they want to fix this relationship because it's, you know, it this while she may have had the right, if we look at it a certain way to take this neck. If the real important thing here is their mother daughter relationship. There's damage, even more damage being done here and not my. That's my biggest concern. More than the necklace itself is is how tainted this, this, this, this, this big makes the relationship and how much harm. Is brought forward.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Agreed. Agreed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So, what did the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Well, before we do that, I mean ultimately, where do you guys come down? Yeah. And if you have to pick from those categories, how would you answer the daughter?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So, I’m going to. I'm going to say that she's the asshole and here’s why. Whether they're whether she's entitled to the necklace or not, she's valuing that necklace over the relationship with Mom. And she's doing something that's inherently deceitful and taking it behind her mother's back. And even though it may, she may be entitled to it. It may be her possession if the focus is a good relationship with mom and the focus is on being honest with people we love. She's brought about more harm to the relationship now. Mom might be being an asshole to some degree. And I think she is. Because she's really like I'm not giving this up. No matter what. But but, but to answer the daughters question. Yeah, yeah, you’re the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I hate to be boring about this, but I'm going to agree with my very learned colleague. The daughter's being an asshole here. You don't take something from someone's home without permission. I think that is egregious and will really damage the relationship with Mom, and I think continues to put a wedge and a split between mom and the turtle side of this woman's family. Because now they're arguing, arguing over this. That, you know, came from the grandfather. Allegedly. I do think the moms being an asshole. I won't even just soft. Yeah, I won't even say that softly. I think as a as a mother and as a daughter. I think this woman is being an asshole. If it doesn't mean anything to you and your child is expressing interest. There is no skin off your back. You you just give it over, especially if she's excited to wear it. That’s what you do. And I've experienced that as a daughter. I've experienced that as a daughter-in-law. You know, I think just as a parent, if if you have something that you think someone's gonna get some good use out of and be interested in it, you work it over. And. And I do think to some extent you believe or try to find a possibility that someone who holds this memory. Of this of this necklace soul firm. Really, I think I would have also, leaned into that more as a parent that you know, she clearly has very detailed memories and even though I think it's mine, I might have been able to find a place where I go, you know, your story sounds really plausible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that’s one of the thank you for bringing that up because really what we're talking about here is that everyone who had the opportunity to assume positive intent. Failed to do that. The daughter failed personally, that the daughter failed to assume that mom really believed it was hers. Mom failed to assume that the daughter really believed it was hers. Everyone had every opportunity to see, and we want to assume positive intention relationships and ideally this would have been, the daughter said. Hey, Mom, I think that's mine and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, that is really well said. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

My mom's like. Well, I don't think it's yours. Think it's mine, but alright, you can have it. Or the daughter Mom said yes. No, it's mine. The daughter said. OK, maybe I missed remembered it too. Or I. Maybe you remember it differently. But let's talk about how you remember it. Like they had an opportunity to assume positive intent and they both completely failed. So, you convinced me now. That we're going to go with everyone's shitty.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, everyone is shitty here and I think. Oh shoot, I had another thought about that. Yeah, everyone is asshole*. No one's valuing the relationship. And you know what's even more ironic is this necklace is emblematic of a relationship. So, they're arguing over something that represents a relationship, and they're ruining their relationship between the two of them. Over this, everyone's been.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, absolutely. All right. What does the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

I was going to say you’re going to be shocked that the Internet perhaps reacted in a unified direction, which is that the daughter is not the asshole, because I know, I know it was So, overwhelming.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, no, no. No, that's no. Uh. And, you know, the moment any one of those commenters have something taken from their home that they believe was a possession of theirs, they would feel really differently. I can't imagine. Wow. OK.

Host: Michael:

In fact.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, let's, let's, let's.

Host: Michael:

Hear the reason? So, they were overwhelming.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Continue to interrupt you.

Host: Michael:

So, in general, the responders were So, overwhelmed by the idea that the mom and they continued to use the word gaslighting, was gaslighting her about who owned the I agree. I see your reactions. I think that's strong in the way that it's being phrased. I like the way you guys addressed it much more kindly, but that was their. Focus like they assume that the daughter is. Right. And then therefore, you're totally entitled to take your things back. Was the direction there was one person who said, yes, you're the asshole. You're stealing from your mom. And they were they were aggressively downvoted and piled upon by the Internet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, my gosh. OK, wait, wait, wait. I do wonder. So, we talk about these. How many comments are we talking about? Are we talking about 5 comments? Are we talking about 500?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm guessing hundreds.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then comments versus down votes? Sorry, our our lovely host has to do some research.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

While our intrepid narrator is looking that up. I want to throw this out there cause I think there's an opportunity. Doctor MacBride for you and I to briefly address gaslighting. Yeah, because this term has is absolutely important people to understand. But it's gotten really bandied about in a in a bad way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh yes. Yeah. If I don't like what you're saying, I'm gonna call you a gas lighter.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Jack Whiting. Right. Gaslighting is the intention. Effort to make someone think that they are, for lack of a better word, crazy for their relatively normal reaction and that that's you. You have more to say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About this, I don't. I actually I found myself wondering. So, does it in order for it to be considered, gaslighting does or someone to be a gaslighter. Does it have to be a pattern or is a one off enough to?

Host: Michael:

I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You can gaslight on an individual situation, but really with gaslighting, it's not when two people have an honest difference of opinion about something. Like no, I remember it this way, and my wife remembers it that way. So, because I tell her that no, I remember differently than you do. I'm not. Or she says no. I remember this way. It's definitely the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Way it happened. That's not gaslighting. That that's a difference of opinion. A difference in perspective to be worked on. Gaslighting is when you intention. Intentionally tell someone that they're wrong, knowing that they're right in order to make them feel like there's something wrong with them, where they're crazy. And I think that that's a really important differentiation to make because that word gets bandied about, and then any disagreement we have or two people have becomes, oh, you're gaslighting. No, it's not necessarily gaslighting just because you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think it's hard to understand. It's hard to know whether or not gaslighting is occurring, because then there is some level of having to understand the intent of the person who's doing the gaslighting. So, really, the only time we can actually figure it out for certain is that someone’s like. Yeah, I knew. And I said it cuz I just wanted to talk with you and. You know and control you and we don't get that very often. So, I think This is why gaslighting has drifted the way that it has, where I just get to declare it is gaslighting. If I think it's gaslighting and it's and it's kind of then bled into when we have a disagreement.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And from working with So, many couples over the years. Then the percentage of time when someone is intentionally trying to harm their partner, intentionally trying to gaslight them is really small. For the most part, we are trying to be honest with our partner and direct with our partner. We just see it So, differently and those differences feels. Like there's no. Way you could see it that way, So, you must be gaslighting me because it couldn't possibly be honestly that the situation remembering it this way. And they are.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I actually find a bigger challenge in individual sessions with clients because they'll say my partner is gaslighting me and it and their perception will be that they that they see things the same way that the client does and they're purposely seeing something different. So, they're ascribing that intent to say something different. And that's sometimes a bit more of a challenge to work with because we know that the likelihood is low. But I think the frequency with which it gets reported is quite high.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, exactly. Exactly So, I'm not. I'm not going to. I don't. I don't think that. The case did you get the number, Michael?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So, So, ultimately there are 216 comments and one of those was the you’re the asshole. But when I went back to try to find it, it has disappeared because it is below whatever threshold so. To show.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Downvoted to hell is what happened.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, we totally. Disagree with the Internet in this case?

Host: Michael:

I know that's great. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and the glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth can be stranger than fiction, So, stay strange. Stay true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we're going to, we're going to hit another one of these up next week. So, you know, come back and hear more and you know, let us know what you think about these. I we we we'd love to hear your opinions.

Host: Michael:

Maps stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in the therapist's office and the stories behind.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits, tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing. Turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick, a video talent who just happens to be doctor MacBride's cousin. Catz: CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

And as promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright, So, I'm gonna just take this one because I am actually really curious and you may have told me this, Dan, but I don't remember as long as I've known you in your office is a little wire sculpture that looks like bicycle wheels. It's not a full bicycle, but it's the bicycle wheels. You know, when I speak. So, please tell me the story.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, honestly, the neighbor kid, who's since moved away now, now an adult was like. 11 and he I was into biking. It was shortly after I moved it, and my wife and I moved here. And he just, like, made a wire bicycle and said here you go, it was for. I don't even know what it was for and he just he gave it to me. I thought it was such a cool thing. I threw it in my office. It was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's cute. It's interesting. It's always caught my eye.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, just something a neighboring kid made when he was like. 11 or 12 years old.

Host: Michael:

Thanks So, much for tuning in. See you again next week.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, So, please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also, give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Resources: In this episode, Dr. MacBride references the book: The Milk Memos: How Real Moms Learned to Mix Business with Babies-and How You Can, Too by Cate Colburn-Smith, Andrea Serrette.

Transcript:
Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. And today I'm joined by a psychologist whose intellect is matched only by his wet wit, doctor Daniel Kessler. Not wet. You can be wet sometimes. I do tell you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or whatever. It's not. It's only.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You are all wet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that is true. Thanks. Thanks for the for the kind insight. I look forward to tackling another one of these quandaries. So, let's get to it.

Host: Michael:

Welcome to both of you for the newbies out there. If you don't know what I am the asshole is. In short, someone posts a scenario and ask readers. Who's the asshole here? And that's what we're gonna help determine. Neither Dan nor Gayle have read or seen this before, so let's go. Today's prompt is one that caught my eye. And the headline is. Am I the asshole for not telling my in laws that my toddler has breast milk with his cereal?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're done, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, but I know there's more. Well, it's gotta be work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe more, but obviously no. Yeah, obviously no.

Host: Michael:

Alright, well, here's the rest of it. My son is 15 months just over a year and is still nursing. I don't see the point in giving him cow’s milk and freezing pumped milk, so I just put my breast milk over his cereal or in recipes. I'm going to make him. He does have cows, milk occasionally, just not regularly. My in-laws are currently. Staying with us this morning, I put my son in his high chair, fed him his cereal and left him to his own devices. My father-in-law was in the kitchen, so I left to go wake up my oldest. I bring her downstairs and find that my father-in-law is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know it. I know it's coming. You can like. Alright, keep going. Ohh totally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The handwriting is on the wall.

Host: Michael:

Find my father-in-law finishing my son cereal. I laughed a little, but went along with my morning when we sat down to eat my father-in-law commented that the milk in my son's cereal tasted weird, as if maybe it was. Though I then told him that he had breast milk in his or our milk wasn't off, I swear he looked like he was going to keel over and vomit. He was angry and asked why I would watch him drink it and not tell him about it. My mother-in-law stepped in and agreed. I know he finishes everyone's meals and I should have told him beforehand. I do agree that I should have at least told him what he was. Eating. But to be honest, I thought he saw me tip it from the bottle. My husband is on damage control and has agreed with all of us. He understands all points of view. So, am I the asshole for not telling him. I make his cereal with breast milk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, this fascinating, but I want to just take a step back so that I understand the situation a little bit more correctly. So, the milk was poured over the cereal, the father-in-law was present. The parent leaves the room. And meanwhile, the father-in-law consumes the cereal or the parent watches the father-in-law consume the cereal. Like I'm not clear if that cereal consumption happened when that parent was in the room. Or out of the room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sounds to me like they were out. Of the room. Like left and kid ate his cereal and grandpa like, Ohh, leftover cereal. I'll eat it because.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's what I thought. And then back the 2nd.

Host: Michael:

That that's my understanding as well, except then the poster comes downstairs and does see the father-in-law finishing like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's like, happily eating along. She doesn't stop him. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

At least takes. A bite or something? Like that, that's my understanding.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. So, is the poster the asshole for essentially watching her father-in-law eat cereal? But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She came in when he was like, just like hmm, that was good like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. So, is she? Is she the asshole for? Not going. Wait, wait, wait.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think no. And I and narrator I. I think she came in when he was done right.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I get the sense that he's like the last spoonful or two.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Host: Michael:

From her post.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, I still wouldn't said anything.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

At that point, you know it's done. That was done at this point. What is she going to do?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Breast milk is. I'm just I'm. I'm at a loss for finding out why everyone isn't just laughing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because there is a real stigma around breast milk in particular, I mean, I do think there's some, there's some real sort of. Patriarchy issues kind of here. Where you know somehow breast milk is disgusting, which let's face it, we you and I both agree that animals should drink the milk from which they are part of the species. Like it makes less sense for us to drink cow’s milk. We're not cows.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no. Cow's milk is very well evolved to create a two ton Heffer out of a small calf and is and is excellent for doing that and it not so excellent for necessarily, for humans as much. Although my apologies, I may get a little a little hate for that. But I mean, if anything, cow’s milk is like the less natural thing for us to be eating than breast milk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and I think it's a complicated history. You know, I think about when I talked to my own mother about becoming a parent and what breastfeeding looked like over the time, you know, she talked about how when I was young, that was just frowned upon. You just didn't do it. It was better living through science. So, I think we've really gotten sort of. Wrapped up in a really complicated history here with breast milk, and we have these. Sort of discussed in aversion. So, here's where I'm going to jump into the psychology of it, which is the. Emotional response? To something that we have been taught is disgusting, and whether you know, we, you and I are going to fall down on the same side of the biology of this and the science of this. But the reality is this has an emotional reaction for someone, especially, you know, we're talking about a father-in-law.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Who is then at least 20 to 25 years her senior, so whatever. You know, understanding she has her own breast milk. He has an entire different generational look at what this means, and he's having this aversive response to it and it’s a really it's an immediate one, it's it, it is a high intensity emotion that leaves people feeling extremely uncomfortable. And you and I both know that when someone is experiencing that kind of discomfort others want to rush in and protect or take that discomfort away. And that's part of the function of human emotion is to shield someone from that. Or at least, you know, come together as a community and get some of that so I understand the dynamic here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I appreciate that because I like to thank you for kind of to some degree coming to his rescue because I would just like, dude, get over it. No, you're right. And if and I, you know, one of the things that we often talk about with couples or relationship issues, parent child issues is. The challenge of seeing the world through someone else's lens and through my lens. The whole reaction is ridiculous. Like, yeah. You might not want to, and maybe she should have said something. You know, just in case, knowing that he finishes everyone's food and perhaps knowing that he might view breast milk differently and I'm having and I and I, I will admit, I'm struggling to get out of my own lens. Which. Is like what? And you know and get into his lens. Which is breast milk is. Not a. Something that should be consumed by anyone but babies and then and maybe. We're going to. Make assumptions about him, maybe even like by babies in a private spot where no one can see, because that's not a not a thing we do in public, which is not my opinion, obviously, because we should nurse wherever whenever it is they, feel at the right time to do so regardless of what anyone else thinks or feels because.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right, no. Yeah, that and I think here here's the other. I mean, maybe the counterpoint is why is this person this, this parent responsible for grandpa’s eating habits? Why does why does she need to anticipate that he is going to finish food and be responsible for another adult? Women like she's raising and she grew. I assume, and is raising a small human. I don't know that she needs to be responsible for another adult human. That human should be a little bit more responsible for the things that he puts in his mouth. I mean, she's got a lot going on with this 15 month. Old baby put. ass* in his mouth. He worry less about what Grandpa puts in his mouth.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no. I mean that’s that. That's more the position I held initially here and I I’m definitely on board with that that that that her level of I mean if we're going to jump to the end here to some degree like her level of responsibility for him is relatively low he is as a grandfather presumably a grown ass man. And uhm.. You know, while one could argue that maybe it would be a good idea if she knows that this grown ass man might be like. Scarfing everyone else's food at the same. Time she's not responsible for him and what happens there and I'm still kind of I’m rolling back to that place like. This one of those stories that you tell later and everyone goes, Oh my gosh, I can't believe that happened and y'all kind of like have a have a chuckle about it. He's clearly not going to be harmed by breast milk. He may find it kind of an unpleasant thought to be. You know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Drinking his daughter in law's breast milk.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, like I, I could see his like. But this like, this has come up. I've had. I remember talking to this person many years ago, like Mom and daughter. You know, Mom was like in her 40s and daughter was like 20s and Mom was babysitting and they both had babies at the same time. And mom. The late life baby. So, she was babysitting her grandchild at the same time as she was caring for her own child, and they're about the same age. You know this going and yeah, grandchild was hungry. So, she's like, right. And she just fed both of them. You know, she was nursing, she was. And daughter was distressed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think I do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

By that by that event, and I was kind of like, but this the way humans did it for. A really long time, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Until recently that we stopped doing this. I mean, even the idea of wet nurses use them culturally.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and it was. It was a really interesting discussion because I I. You know, wait, when I'm at what I like. I had. I kind of like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're really struggling here for a moment. You gotta collect yourself. Big breath.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well I am because I have this 1 area where I do have trouble getting out of my own lens cause I had trouble seeing the daughter's perspective that this was bad that mom had done this because I'm just like, alright, what's the objection? And I really struggle with that and I try not to seem like really like it in in our work, we try to be sensitive. To this and this frankly wasn't in the context of my job, so it was easier for me to have an opinion that it had been in the context of, of my job as a psychologist. But it’s one of those moments where like I, I get that people might have discomfort, but I would rather work on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To have an opinion, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Reducing the discomfort. Then on changing the. Grandma's behavior or the moms behavior in this initial story?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I can. I can see that now. I want to jump for a second to the husband. I am really impressed with the male partner here who said wait a. I get everybody's complaint. Like what a beautiful place for this this parent to be because these are his parents at question and it can be really difficult when you have a partner that is the child of, let's say, Grandma and grandpa, who just pieces out on this and leaves the spouse just dangling. There, and I hear this too often with my clients. Like, you know, my spouse doesn't speak up for me. I have to, you know, kind of push against my in laws. And it really he doesn't have my back or she doesn't have my back. And I do love in this scenario that the partner came in and said yes, honey like I get it and I understand your point of view and this supportive and can kind of create a bridge to the parents now maybe this person is maybe a habitual peacekeeper and you know and people pleaser but I do love that. So, he showed up with at least some empathy for both sides, and it's active in this conversation because it's just too easy to be, like, well, it's between you guys. I wasn't there. I didn't see it or to side with the parents. Like, that's that gets really tough dynamic wise so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, yeah. I had some mixed feelings here that my, well, my first thought was. Was he should? Because again, I was seeing this through my lens. My first thought is that is like, why are you seeing all all sides here? There are some situations and I think that sometimes that and this could gosh this could be like 3 podcasts just by itself. But I think sometimes we try so hard to look at all sides.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That we don't evaluate that sometimes there are sides that are completely invalid and we see that sometimes in in, in, in, in politics. Or in other situations like, we need to hear everyone's position and sometimes those positions are like we're hearing positions that are clearly wildly inaccurate, and we try to hear everyone's position. And there are times when it's like, no, no, we're not going to hear everyone's position. We're not going to hear stuff that's wildly inaccurate. We're not going to entertain stuff. It's not. Now, in this case. So, that was my first thought. Like, wait a second. Hold on. Grandma's Wong? Yeah, and the sun shouldn't take all. Sides and maybe. I'm coming around a little bit on. That that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That that one work right? I mean, really, when you do couples and family work, no matter how absurd or how little you agree with the other person's position, that work teaches us to slow down and at least hear what the other people have to say, whether or not you ever agree with it. It's about empathic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Action and you don't have to agree or validate that perspective as much as you have to validate the emotional response, which is where I think I started in validating grandpa's aversion sort of discussed response. I understand where that came from. It's not right. There are lots of other sociopolitical reasons. However, I get where you're coming from and that must have made you feel.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would have. I think you he handled it better than I probably would have in that situation because I think that I it's something we all struggled to do and I really with couples that I'm working with I absolutely can do that I can absolutely get to that place of like let's see if you can talk about what your partner is thinking and feeling. Even if you like, you don't have to agree. Just let them feel heard is so critical and I think I might have failed on this one. If this were in my own family, because I struggle to and I'll admit that in my personal life. I sometimes struggle. To hear things that are so, so opposed to my position and I it's personal growth work for me, I suppose.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I suppose, and I think it is for all of us, I think that's a really natural thing to find as a therapist is we can sit in an office. I mean, I sometimes do confessions from the couch. Right. This my confession from the couch is, you know, we say great things in our office, and we can educate and help people with all of these great skills and yet really empathize with them when they say. But this really hard to do in the moment. Ohh hell yeah it is and it's hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To do too. We know the right answers, but implementing it can be really difficult.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sure that neither one of us, since we're both accomplished couples therapists, and we both know exactly how to diffuse conflict, but. One of us ever have an argument with our partners? I certainly my wife and I. Never.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ever. Right? Hopefully she's not listening and going to call you out on that. What I will say though, is right. Because of the work we do, I'm faster to get to a better place with it than I was when I was a junior therapist or a student and early in my marriage.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You all know better. You all know better.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, and I think that's what we're hoping for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That that is and it is that that place of getting people to yes, I hear you and I think that it had had the husband in this situation. I mean I suspect that that if there was peace that came out of this it came out of him going. Wait a second. I get where you are. Here I get where you are here. And if they could both. If Mom and Grandpa could both. In that moment go. OK. And and get to that spot, I suspect what happened in the moment is was just big conflagration and. Once people get once you get mad. And you feel wrong that righteous indignation gets you stuck.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. And I'm. I'm imagining what I said earlier about a high intensity emotions. You've got this aversion, disgust, emotion that hits high and then, you know, anger, not being kind of a singular. Ends it's made-up of many different emotions, so his anger is fueled by this and she's got this right. Righteous indignation that's bringing her anger along. And you used such a good word. Conflagration. I love that word for this situation because dumpster fire it became, I'm sure, which is then what brings this poster. To the Internet to post and say what the hell, man?

Host: Michael:

So, so let. Me, let me ask really quick guys.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, boy, we're getting leaving.

Host: Michael:

It is. I mean, it sounds like you both were squarely on the side of not the asshole. And then now you're kind of at the point of either a very soft everybody sucks here or no asshole* here. Is that, is that fair?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, that would not be my take. On it, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I well my take on it is. Everyone could have done something a little bit different in the beginning once they got angry at each other. It sounds like they all got stuck, and in that case maybe they were kind of dickish to each other, but I think at the beginning here they were like. Like again I where I was at the. Beginning is kind of where I am now. This was an opportunity for this family to see this as a as a mistake that a little bit a little bit of a mistake that mom made a little bit of mistake that Grandpa made. You know, toddler. Maybe he should have finished his cereal, you know, so maybe everyone made the tiniest made a small mistake. Here and then everyone got mad except for husband, who apparently was the good guy here. Everyone got mad at each other and got stuck. So, at the beginning, like no one's really the asshole. But then, like, maybe we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Everybody starts to talk a little.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Should get so caught. Us in our ass*. Yeah. What do you think? Gayle. Yeah, I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, honestly, I don't think the poster's the asshole. I think she got stuck. But I wouldn't say she sucks. So, you know, on the slider meter. You know, I might give her a three or a four, but I think, you know, the fact that Granddad kicks this whole thing off with a really big inappropriate negative reaction. He has to know that she's been breastfeeding and doing some of these things. And he's just uncomfortable with it, I would say on the slider meter of socks here, I'd give him a 5 or a six. I think he sucks more than she does.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'll agree.

Speaker

And and by.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The way let's you know, bring the mother-in-law back in, who absolutely has her husband's side, but I presume that she owns. Milk producing mammary glands and has her own relationship to breastfeeding and so where does that show up in the in the sense of motherhood for this? This mom I. I don't like that the that the mother-in-law didn't kind of come back around and say, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, here's some here's some context, because that's a natural ally for this daughter-in-law.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I didn't even catch that. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the last few minutes here, as I'm talking, it's for my brain pings off of this other, you know, little examined behavior of the mother.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, because husband tried to mediate and create a connection and mother-in-law just got all indignant with her husband I, but probably also. I mean, we're going to roll back to that's probably also a generational thing that that depending on where she falls.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm you know, I'm. I'm. I'm 59 and. It it you know that the that the switch had already clearly migrated towards breastfeeding in, in, in in my generation, but it wasn't 100%, it wasn't anywhere near 100%. There were still a lot of people who saw breast milk not as good and we're bottle. Leading when and now that shift has really gone back and thankfully gone back. It's like millions of years of evolution have created the perfect food for babies. Why would we think we could do a better job in a lab with artificial ass*? Yeah. And that's just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But you got a field from the mother-in-law comment. Was there more with the mother-in-law and?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I'm. I'm. I'm maybe even more. Annoyed with her?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I mean, but I think what you said, I mean it's contextual and it's generational she has, there is some sense of then there's sort of more of a traditionalist dynamic happening here with the mother-in-law and the father-in-law. And she's absolutely having her husband's back instead of looking at this bigger picture. So, yes, I think I'm just again in the slider of all of this, you know. She's a four or five for me. It's I'm annoyed by her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I hope that this family gets to the place down the road where they can tell this story.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You want this story told that this child's graduation party, or they're saying.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I do. I do exactly. Yes, I want this story told later on. And like everyone just laughing and thinking that that wasn't this, wasn't this kind of a funny happenstance? Not. And. And you know what, like, actually let me back up here. Wouldn't it be great? If instead of it being like it wasn't even funny like it was just like, Oh yeah, that happened because breast milk is no big deal either way. Like it’s just a food for babies. So, like the fact that he had it was like, oh, yeah, oops. Sorry about that. Yeah, like. And it wasn't funny either way because it wasn't like, Oh my gosh, it's like, so now I'm kind. Of rolling back the thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's a really good point. Wow. Are we asshole* because we are still stuck in our own our own breast milk beliefs?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe my wife that was funny is driven by. Yeah, maybe my reaction this funny is driven by my own, sort of like being raised within this sort of patriarchal world where we view breasts and breast milk in a negative way. And all of this, and instead of it being funny, it's just like. Oh, oops. OK. Like oh, I didn't know that. Like, all right. You wanna clean the bowl like, like, that's the that. Wouldn't that be the best part of the story is like, oh, you know, that's built. Ohh. I wonder why it tasted funny. OK. And then they go about their business like that's the ideal story here. Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That would be a great ending. Yeah, right. And it's like Tuesday. I love it. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's not funny at all. It's nothing.

Host: Michael:

And maybe the milk doesn't taste funny. It just tastes different than expected. But you you will not be surprised, probably to realize that the Internet went all in on. A very small one aspect of the story, which was how dare you feed breast milk to your child in his cereal? Or you know, that's perfectly natural. Like, that was the main argument here was it was 5050 split that way and then the few people who actually engaged with the conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, very thickness. Black and white.

Host: Michael:

Either said you're not the asshole for not telling him because you even though you maybe have seen him consume leftover food in the past, like you couldn't have known that was gonna happen when you left the room. He's a grown ass man, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And a lot of people. Like going down that rabbit hole of like. Well, how involved? This this grandparent like if the grandparent has been around, he knows the breast milk and all that stuff. And then the you're the asshole side of it is you're the asshole for laughing like you should not have laughed in that scenario because that caused the conflict. Which. I mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I just can't. I just can't get up in arms about that. I don't. I don't understand any of the people who are like, why would you put breast milk in cereal? It makes perfect sense to put breast milk in the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, no. It lacks the basic information. I believe The Who, the World Health Organization still recommends that baby can babies consume breast milk up to two years of age. So, even with a lot of mothers or breastfeeding parents.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kids cereal.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the United States, who try to breastfeed for the full year, that's still only half of The Who recommendation. So, you know, it's a complicated it's a complicated topic and I think it's still fraught with troubles and problems. And I think we've come a nice distance with that, but not nearly far enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, we really have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I want to tell a story here unless the host is going to give me signals otherwise. But I had had my first child. And I had breast fed and we did quite well and, you know, enjoyed that time with him. And I was I think I was pregnant with or about to become pregnant with my second child and my cousin who had a child just older than my oldest and probably had just had her second. Like we have kids that are sort of. UM. What? What's inner space? Somehow, anyway, she's telling me about this book that she had read. She's she's a professional working mother. And it was one of those books that just sat with me and sat and resonated with me in such an important way. So, I wanted to mention it here. It's called the milk memos. Now, I don't remember the author, but it was such a good book. Because essentially it's a compilation of notes that women who were breastfeeding wrote to each other. I believe they worked at IBM back in the day when they didn't have a lactation room for these mothers, and so they were returning to work, and they were pumping and trying to continue to breastfeed their babies. And they were using a janitor's closet, and they had to fight for that space, and they and they ended up starting this little journal that they would leave encouraging notes for each other. I mean, it's just so heartwarming. And then they would say things like, you know, this the end of my journey. I've been doing this for six months, and then the response would be we're going to miss you. So, much, and it was no one judged anyone for how long they spent breastfeeding. Just, you know, applauded the attempts of really supporting each other in this professional environment. And I just, I remember reading that book and. Just having such a tearful emotional reaction to the book itself anyway, I just wanted to share that if you're ever interested in kind of a feel good book, that’s really a bit different. The milk memos was actually worth picking out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Cool. Sounds interesting. All right, cool.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, the author. I looked it up while you're talking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I knew. You know, I I'd say I was 100% certain that you had. Looked it up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the views and we're well aware of exactly what the book was about, just for the. Record here. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, Michael, who's the author?

Host: Michael:

Cate Colburn-Smith and Andrea Serrette. And we'll link it in the notes so people can find that but. Well, thank you. Both again for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The truth is strange. But sometimes stranger than fiction, I don't know. Stay true and stay strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please come, come back, come back again and listen to our next one.

Host: Michael:

Please follow and share Veritas views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation and the seemingly random items. In the therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com credits, tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro. I'm Kelley Buttrick, a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Catz, CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip, Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Diagnosis or treatment listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health. You please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. And as promised, here is the bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, Gayle. Yes, fish in your office like a. Knitted fish. What's the what's crocheted, crocheted, crocheted, what's with the crocheted fish?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Crochet but yes, go on. OK. So, I mean, if you look around behind me, this my office slash craft room. I do enjoy being creative, so that's a nice way for me to balance the, the work I do and give me kind of a very different outlet from being a therapist, which sometimes people ask me, you know, how do you how do you do this? Well, that's how I do it is I have a robust life that's separate from being a therapist. And one of the things I always enjoyed doing was creating a handmade gift for my children's elementary school teachers. I wanted to do something. Thing and one year someone posted this image of this, this crocheted fish in a jar with pebbles on the bottom and you crochet some seaweed and you hang it by a an invisible thread line. And so it looks like this fish in the jar. And so I did that for gifts one year and but I always tried. When I do these. And made projects. I try to make one first because there's mistakes and learnings that I have and I usually keep that one. So, that one I kept and I brought into my office and I didn't realize I wish I could take credit for really. Planning this but one of my patients asked me about it and I realized that it reminded me in that moment so much of the little jar that Bill Murray takes along and in that movie. Oh, shoot. What's it called? The one what about Bob? And he's got the fish, he's got the goldfish and he travels everywhere with this goldfish. So, I named the goldfish Bob.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I refuse to. See it? I've not seen it. I don't, for the most part. I don't like movies like Colleges Center because they tend to be, like, wildly inaccurate or wildly inappropriate. Psychologically, doing something terrible. Yeah. And I just people tell me all the time to watch it. And now it's just become a thing. Like I'm not going to do it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We haven't seen that in a really long time. I you know what? I wouldn't, because it's not a good representation of a therapist. I mean, he's got this patient and he's a psychiatrist, I think. And it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go. There you go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, Mr. Hollands Opus, I can't come up with the doctor's name now. Yeah, Richard Dreyfus is this psychiatrist, and. And he's really not very nice. And he's inappropriate and. And so it's not a good therapist movie, but Bob's character is hilarious.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, perhaps one day I'll get over my aversion. Thanks so much. We'll do this again next week. Right? Great.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. Stay tuned.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bye.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us. On Apple, Spotify or well wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript:

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas psychology partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I am joined by a psychologist whose wit is only matched by his intellect doctor Dan Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And thank you. Thank you, Gayle. As always, this not necessarily compliment the fact that they match isn't necessarily. A good thing? But in this case I'm going to follow John and Julie Gottman's advice and assume positive intent and thank and say thank you so much for that, Doctor MacBride and I look forward to your thoughtful insights as we tackle this next. Conundrum. Michael, what do you got? For us.

Host: Michael:

Well, first of all, welcome both of you and for the newbies out there. If they don't know, what am I? The asshole is. In short, it's when someone posts a scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. And that's what we're going to help determine. Neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this or read it before. So. Let's go. Today's prop begins with a relatively simple headline, which is, am I the asshole for refusing my to let my brother-in-law sell art at my boutique? And the story goes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I've got a simple headline.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's. Yeah, I mean that. That's immediately complex. Yeah. Immediately. Like going wow. Like, I think, well, what's the relationship between them two? What's the nature of the art? What's the. Nature of the what do? They match up. I mean, there's so many questions already, so I'm gonna I I'm going to agree with Gayle. Disagree with Michael on this and say. This not a simple question but. You probably should tell the story now, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Might be helpful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that would be.

Host: Michael:

Fair, fair enough. I take out the simple and just, I'll just tell the story which is I-26 year old female own, a small boutique clothing store downtown. My brother-in-law Henry is an amateur artist trying to get exposure.

Speaker

Thank you.

Host: Michael:

He asked if he could sell his paintings in my store on consignment to reach new customers. The issue is that Henry's art is kind of dark and not the aesthetic I want for my boutique. I tried to gently explain that his style doesn't just fit with the bright, lively vibe of my store. Henry got upset and accused me of undermining his dreams as an artist just because we have different tastes. My husband thinks I am being unfair and could help launch his brother's career. But as a boutique owner, I don't think I should have to compromise my curated vision to display art. I simply don't care for. Am I the asshole I want to support Henry's hobby, but don't think my store is the right venue for his art.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, so many things here and I'm sure we're not going to get the level of detail that you or I would prefer to have to really counsel someone through if this came into our office from a client. But that said, wow. So, this individual is 26 and the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Artist and question is her brother-in-law. Just remind me.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, that's what I heard. Correct. I'm sorry. Yep.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. All right. So, the brother-in-law has a very different aesthetic and you know, right off the bat, I think if I were to take this on with the client, I would be looking for actually a skill that I really value and use quite often, which is the power of and if you've. You followed me anywhere, or you’ve talked to me in therapy or any of these. These opportunities to interact with me. You'll hear me talk about and instead of but and is additive to the conversation, but is literally subtractive. If we go back to elementary school math. And this really actually the reason this hit me. I'm gonna do a little bit of a of a diversion here is I remember when I was in a supervisory role and had a really long mute. And so I would listen to books on tape and or tape. Listen, I just aged myself. Whoops. So, I was looking to audio.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I wouldn't say anything.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Audio books on my way to this this this job I had and one of the books I listened to was bossy pants by Tina Fey and this where I learned that in improv comedy. They used that yes and technique and she really. A great job in the book of talking about what that meant and how important it was, and she ran through some kind of humorous examples cause, you know, Tina Fey and I really walked away from listening to that chapter of the book with such an understanding of how and can really move a conversation forward. And I think that this young, this young person, coming back to the topic. Hand has throwing a button here you know I support as a hobby, but I'm not going to do it through my store and she has closed off any opportunities to be a supportive family member. This situation could use an aunt. I you know, I really would prefer not to hang it in my. Because it really doesn't fit with the vibe and maybe we could hold a special event on a day or a time that we're not open that we could, you know, really feature you as an artist or you know, something. There could be a compromise here, just sort of for the family goodwill. I do hear maybe a little bit of her devaluing. Her brother in. Law's work because at the end, she. Calls it a hobby and she did not shoot. So, like I think she's running on this because she is diminishing what he is trying to do and I don't think she's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I'm. I'm waiting for a. Chance to type in on this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Meaning to do it, but once powerful. So, I'm gonna let you actually react.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I think.

Speaker

No, no, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, that's exactly where like on, on, on e hand, First off like. It's your, it's your, it's your gig, it's your, it's your store. You know you do. You and you and I. I don't think we get to tell people like if you got a vision for a store and it's a business that's. It's great and I I, I did chafe a little bit when I saw that word I. Heard that word. Hobby because you know, for an artist, it's not a hobby. It's it's it's it's, it's who and what they are. And to call their their their their their their art. Whether it's paintings or. Writing novels to call that a hobby is , I think, denigrating to to what they're doing and really devaluing, maybe not denigrating, but certainly devaluing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Unless the individual has called it a hobby, you know, I don't think it's fair to classify it as the artist or writer or whomever is classifying it. But to to go out there and to call it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In this case, does not seem fair.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no, it doesn't cause the original poster said this that they and specifically that this individual was looking to build a career as an artist. So, there's that. And at the same time, like I'm pretty much in her camp, straight down the line, I mean. You, you. You. Very carefully curate things, and I like that word a lot when you're developing a store, when you're developing a business, when you're when you're developing, no matter what it is you want to have a certain. For lack of a better word, a certain vibe. You know, people have a certain feeling when they walk into the place. And if the art is very dark and and I it I think there's a great, you know, there's a place for all types of art, you know. Yeah. Art should should should deeply touch you on some level or another. And if that if that if the vibe of the store is a positive, upbeat vibe and there's this art that is going to create an intense emotion that's in that, that's a that that's a painful emotion that may be wonderful art, but not for this space. And actually in the **** there. But I threw in the **** there and maybe I shouldn't have. I I'm. I'm not as I'm not. I'm not as objective to this. Yeah. Yeah. It's it says it just doesn't work in this space on the daily. I love your suggestion of holding a special event for it or something else that allows her to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I agree. No, I think. It is fair to subtract it from. The next slide.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Support someone she cares about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I mean if she is creating, if she is running a boutique in a particular area, she's probably a member of a chamber commerce or a business group or something where she could maybe even create connections for this brother-in-law. I think they're thinking about this very narrowly and seeing only one possible solution is the right answer. And if you don't agree with me on this. Answer that I'm going to be very rigid about this and that's where I think a lot of family conflict comes in. Is where we, you know, we don't narrow in. I love you refer to the Goodmans earlier. I love when they navigate conflict. They're talking about each partner. Trying to define as narrowly as possible their area of inflexibility and everything else is flexible and negotiable. What is my dream here? And then how can we work on achieving this dream together and without that that if those if those areas of inflexibility are too large? And problems become unsolvable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right in in my. In an earlier career point, I did mediation and German mediation is moving people from positions to interest. Yeah, each person here has a position. The shop owner wanted to have a positive, upbeat vibe for her shop. The brother-in-law Henry wanted to create art and sell his art, and those are their interests. Their positions are I don't want it in my shop. You should put it in your shop. And if we can move away from those those narrowly defined, as you said, it positions and move to the, how can you help, how can I help him to sell his art? How can I help you to keep your shop in the in the place you want to be and how do you so now we now we the and now we're open up to. All sorts of possibilities. Yeah, I I. Yeah, I love what you said about that. And I think that this a. This a great opportunity. If they can move away from their hurt feelings, which is really, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And that's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You've had this too. You've got someone that's got hurt feelings and they're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, well, right, the phrase is hurt. People hurt people. So. So, I think absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And then you? So, then my task, like if I'm working with either one of these folks, is let's move away from the hurt feelings or find a way away from the hurt feelings and try to get what the other person really wants and needs from you. And then how do I, how do I help them to meet their needs while not compromising my values on this rather than should I hang the art? Open the wall on the wall.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, to say nothing of you know then what exactly is this business that she is running? How as a 26 year old has she found herself in this place and lots of times what's happening with these young entrepreneur young entrepreneurs? There we go. They are actually working with a larger organization and sort of franchising. The store which they have ownership of and yet they are still required to report sales and those kind. Of things. So, while they have a great deal of autonomy on the back end, less so, and it can look like they're quite independent because of that franchising opportunity, but maybe not as much flexibility there and it may be maybe right, like we don't have enough details to to suggest this, but I've certainly worked with clients who have been in this position and then find themselves. Deeply caring about the store and their employees and you know doing good sales work and that kind of thing, but also caught in those crosshairs of a larger corporation that they they do have. The answer to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And if the fail rate for new businesses is pretty pretty high. And I'm thinking about this coffee shop I once used to love to go to, and they had rotating art that went through the coffee shop and it was always for. Sale in the. Mall and the vibe, the vibe of the shop definitely changed when the vibe. Of the artwork changed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah, I was having similar similar reaction because we've all been in that coffee shop. That combined seems to be a pretty, pretty kind of standard thing. And you're right, it does change the, the vibe and the mood.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It it does so. So, I'm like, you know, I don't think anyone here is . Particularly well. Alright, let me back up here. The the original poster. I'm fine with. I'm fine with her decision. I think she could have navigated it a bit. A bit cleaner with your with your and instead of but not real happy about her. Her, her, her brother-in-law. Or her her partner being angry at her. For this I think that there's a I think there's a better way of of having handled that for, for, for them I'm more annoyed with them for getting annoyed with her than I am annoyed with her for managing it. Perhaps not optimally. Because the bottom line is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

More of a slider on some of these, right? It's it's not quite clean in some of these cases about whether or not someone's at fault in some way, shape or form, but I do. I see fault in both of them. For I like what you were talking about, positions versus interests you. Know they really are. They're stuck in that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Could could so you know this a. This a. A brainstorming session. This sitting down and like, how do we? How do I help you with your business and at the same time help develop the this, this, this, this, this art on the side. How do I help you? How do how does each of them? How does the family come together to, to, to build both of these folks up in a way that's going to work and not harm the other? Because I could definitely see it. Being a problematic. You know, if I walk into a car, let's say it is a coffee shop and I walk into this coffee coffee shop and there's this like dark. Heavy vibe in the room and I kind of want to go there and enjoy my cup of coffee and read my book and and do a little work and feel some enjoyment in the moment it may, it may, it may get in the way. Maybe I'm being overly persnickety, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I think you know the psychology of sales is really relevant here. We haven't talked a lot about it, but. There is a. Whole field of psychology that focuses on what? Sell an item or not, you know and it's it is delicate and precise and we don't realize how much we're being sold to. And I think that vibe really does matter. It ranges from, you know, what color is my brand, what shapes appear on my label, what is the lighting? In the store, the temperature, I mean all of these things actually matter to consumerism and at the end of the day, this young person is running about. Week sales are going to matter. This her livelihood and whether or not she is studying all of the psychology behind it, she seems to maybe have an intuition for it, as many of us do. You know, we read this information and we go, oh, that's not terribly surprising. I mean, sometimes we're a little bit surprised, but lots of others like shapes, who would have thought. Sell to women like that's that's a thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Circles sell the women.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, apparently that's why they put circles on the tide product because women were more likely to buy it if it had a product had circles on it, so their logo was a circle. Psychology at work in our advertising, in our products and and selling and it matters. So, again whether or not she can articulate these things, she does have a clear sense of it. And again, because she's probably been a consumer for 26 years or plus or minus a few in there and she knows what she feels comfortable environment. Size in terms of purchasing and she's trying to replicate the. For her store and I, I think the brother in law's art, if it doesn't match that vibe, it can really undermine that. And again, she may not be able to articulate it other than it's changing the vibe and it doesn't fit. And that's a lot of what I think folks can say without pointing to the research. But I think the. Research would support that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I'm going to dive even even deeper on this and forget about any reasoning she's got for a moment. This her story. This her gig. Yeah, the reality is she can say no for any reason or no reason at all. And I think we get caught up in. We often get caught up in feeling the need to provide someone with a reason or a rationale. Which then gives the other person the opportunity to decide or argue with us as to whether our reason or our rationale is good enough. Her reasoning? Her reasoning could be I don't asshole want it there. Like I don't like the art. I don't want it for no reason other than that. Now would that be the kindest thing?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We've talked before. I love that. Yeah. Thanks for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe not. But I would also support that that she doesn't have to have a quote UN quote good reason. She just not want the art there and find some other way of supporting him. So, I’m I'm going to, you know, scroll all the way back and say maybe even the underlying question of whether this a good reason or not a good reason shouldn't be there at all.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like that. That's really interesting. And we do talk about that often with our clients as you can have your reasons, you don't have to disclose them and maybe in some cases you're ill advised to disclose them because then people find this as an opportunity to create a high conflict conversation. And when you when you find yourself in that situation, you're better off sharing. Less information rather than more sticking to some maybe accurate information, but it's limited and doing so in a friendly to neutral way and then backing it out so you know. I'm sorry that doesn't work for me. Well, maybe not even I'm sorry. And have time for conversations. A lot of times you don't even want that in there because they suggest some some ownership. But social apologies are OK, but right you have the you have the right to just say no and not have to provide a whole lot. I think our best advice though to our clients is to be able to do that with kindness.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. And I generally when I'm talking to someone who is in a potentially high conflict situation, especially the family, I often discourage providing reasons.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, same.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you have absolutely no reason to have to give a reason. Can you drive me to the airport? No, that won't work for me. Why not? Because that won't work. Because every time you give a reason, you give the other person the opportunity to argue back, to debate with you, to tell you why your reason isn't. Valid and if you give that more vague, that's just not going to work for me. The other person is left with well, why not? Because it's not going to work for me and they're kind of stuck there and the conflict kind of goes away. They may be annoyed by you, but that that the, the, the debate over whether your reason is good enough kind of goes away. I might have if this if this person were in my office, I might have said to her you can just say. Oh, you don't? You don't have to give a reason, and it may be better if you don't, because then they're going to argue back or have have a debate and you just don't want to do it. And that's fine. It is fine to just say I don't want to do it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And I think I would have had almost an identical conversation and encouraged them with that. And OK, this guy is your brother-in-law to maintain some family relationships, it's important to your husband that you support his brother in some way that the family support the brother in some way. Let's look at what maybe those opportunities could be. E for this individual as opposed not in your store, right? No, this n't gonna work for me. I'd love to support you in some way. How about I reach out to some some other local businesses where you might be a. Really. Good fit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Exactly, exactly. I am happy to help where I can.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let's talk about how I can help. You is wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, or I have experience in some of the marketing that you may need. Let me help you market yourself a little bit more. I can jump in and do these other things. And no to the original.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Request. Yeah, yeah. I like. I like that a lot. We that we. Don't we don't. Need to provide that. So, that's the purpose. So, we alright, so we should get to that.

Host: Michael:

Question shouldn't we? Yeah, I was just. I was just going to say so. Your ultimate ruling? I mean, it sounds squarely. Not the asshole for both. Of you. Is that correct? Doctor Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, she's she's not an asshole for saying no here. I think the family member. I think she could have handled it slightly more artfully than she did. Like get it and I think the family again. I'm. I'm not willing. Quite willing to call them asshole*, but I don't think the family is being terribly understanding of her. Both her partner and her brother-in-law are not really being understanding of what's going on for her. So, I'm I would like her to handle it a bit better. But I and I'm more annoyed with the other folks in this question.

Host: Michael:

And Doctor MacBride.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm yeah. Thanks. I'm gonna throw a little bit of a curveball because as I was listening to my esteemed colleague, I had a thought, which is we really didn't discuss the role of the spouse here. So, I agree. I don't think the original poster is an asshole. I am annoyed at the brother-in-law. I think getting too, too wrapped in exactly how he wanted this to play out. He's really acting on his level of disappointment and maybe discouragement in in terms of his art career. So, I think that's that is a little. Too overblown. Again, I don't know that I'd Plumb an asshole. I want more of a slider here, but it is certainly on the continuum of not the asshole to asshole. He certainly, you know, cross the middle line a little bit. But I am annoyed at the spouse here more than we've really spent time talking about because, you know, being a spouse or a partner. Is a little bit of a. You aren't even when you think your partner is wrong. You've gotta be careful not to call them out in really public ways. They need to feel like they that you have their back, all unconditionally. Even if you disagree, finding a way to join with them and maintain that partnership is important. And maybe discuss again those nuances. Of where you disagree, I would love to have seen the spouse say honey, you absolutely have the right to to not hang anything you don't want to in the store. And I really want to find a way to support my brother and. With art, how can we do that together rather than push her into something that she's not comfortable with? I I'm annoyed and I find it a bit more on the other side of that. asshole side there. I like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A lot, actually, and I feel kind of bad that we kind of gave this guy a pass a bit in. Our discussion earlier. We didn't. We didn't like . He needs some chops busting here because this a guy who he, he, he's married his, his his his wife is, is starting something up. She's a young entrepreneur and you start a business up. There's a lot of emotion tied in. There's a lot of hard work and effort and for him to to hit her with this like I like. I could see I'm more forgiving of Henry forgetting like wrapped up in his art than I am for the husband not. Thing like. I love your that he should be like like is there something we can do? But yeah, I'm totally on your side like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. That answer should never be. Babe. Babe, you're wrong like that just feels. Especially when you've got a female entrepreneur and two men telling her how she should run her business. Sorry, feminism hackles are kind of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I feel.

Speaker

Oh, we didn't mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Up and get into the genders that the gender stuff here absolutely, absolutely. So, I mean, if there is an, if there is an asshole. There it's more the. Husband than any than anyone else, because I'm more forgiving of the of Henry. Although he's still I agree with you, he crosses the 50-yard line as it were. Husband is further along and I’m totally fine with. I'm just about totally fine with her. Like you said she gets like an A minus on this one. Like she could have handled it slightly better you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I'm pretty annoyed with the husband as we talk about it. I’m annoyed with myself, right? For, for not giving for, not spending enough time giving him kind of shit about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This we'll give ourselves a little bit of a pass because we do these things cold and you know, we're processing and thinking about these different elements and but this is what it looks like in an actual therapy session. Sometimes with the client where you hear the information and you're talking it through and you're pulling apart these nuances. And then all of a sudden it hits and there's clarity for you in a way that then you can reflect to your client and maybe counsel them through. So, yeah, sometimes we don't. Arrive at this. Stuff quite as quickly as we like, but. We get there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hopefully it hits during the session every once in a while and after the session. Like ooh, I missed out I missed thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh man. Right, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I miss something and sometimes you figure that out in a pure supervision, sometimes you figure that out in your conversations in your own head afterwards, your thoughts about it in your own heads. But I'm glad you brought that up, because we really missed out on looking at that husband going man, you really missed an opportunity to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Excellent. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

45 yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

So, the Internet, the Internet was far harsher than either of you and I know, like the Internet, you know, has this this reputation for being kind and cuddly. But, you know, right. They first of all, it was decisively not the asshole for the shop owner. Absolutely. For many of the same reasons that you said that, you know, she worked hard to create this small business. Small businesses fail every day. And one of the things that they addressed as being a problem. Trying to do too much, you know, a small business needs to have a vision and a focus, and it sounds like she has that and knows what it is and if she betrays that, she's going to struggle. But they also pointed out they will also point they also pointed out that the brother-in-law is not going to be served by being exposed to an audience that doesn't fit that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's really well said.

Host: Michael:

You know why? Put his heart in this place.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What? What were you this?

Host: Michael:

That I know. I thought that was a really interesting comment that was good job well. The comment was made.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you.

Host: Michael:

And, but then several of them jumped on the idea of both the brother-in-law and the spouse being parasites. Was the language they used trying to latch on and suck the life out of and it went in really dark places. So, but I mean.

Speaker

Yeah, look.

Host: Michael:

I think I think it's wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not. I'm not. I'm not willing to be that strong. I don't. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not willing to be so strong as to say they're being parasitic here. I think they're trying to. They're trying to do something positive. And without and being more thoughtless than parasitic. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ooh, I like that thoughtless right. They're seeing something that's successful and they're trying to glom onto it, but I don't think they're trying to suck the life out of it. I think they're trying to breathe life into something else.

Host: Michael:

And that's there are also several people who commented on the brother-in-law as an artist needs to be less sensitive to know that he's going to know that art.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Speaker

Right.

Host: Michael:

Is subjective, right? And you guys said this also like the shopkeeper has a view on his art that doesn't fit, and it is not going to fit in everybody's home. It's not going to fit in every coffee shop as you mentioned. So, he needs to be more accepting of no and you know, work to find the audience a little better where people are interested in is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, go ahead.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I just want to tell a story, but I, but I keep a moment. It was really. It was a great story about being an artist and hearing. No. All right, now, now I've said enough. I'm going to tell the story I was. Years, years and years ago, and actually I don't even know if these people remember having the conversation always present. But were at a large family gathering. And I had the opportunity to go for a walk run with a couple of folks in my family that work in artistic modes and really put themselves out there and have to audition for roles and those kinds of things. And as these individuals were talking about how they have to put themselves out there on the routine. How strong they have to be with their own egos to hear no repeatedly, because they're gonna hear more Nos than they hear yeses. And so, Michael, as you talk about being rejected as an artist and building up a little bit of that thicker skin too. Hearing no, I. Was thinking about that conversation between these two artists and how often they hear no and well, that's hard. They've had to get used to that as a part of their profession. That's just that's a muscle you have to learn and then flex.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and. And as I thought about it and I'm gonna totally different direction here as I as our esteemed narrator was talking about this like, I think about the art that I love, is it necessarily the art that I want to see? Like when I go to a go to look at look at art. I find myself drawn to art that is intensely emotional. I'll walk up to painting and. I'll be like. You know and if I walk up to a painting that's really well done, but doesn't evoke any emotion. I kind of like. That's nice. It's pretty and. I walk away. And I find that I some of that artwork that I just stare at a gallery or a show or it's. I don't necessarily want that in my house because it might evoke a feeling that's incredibly powerful and I can feel the artist's pain or whatever, but I don't necessarily want to stare and want to see that each day as I walk by and I wouldn't necessarily want that in my. In my shop. So, there you go.

Host: Michael:

Thank you both so much. For a riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums, remember morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth can be stranger than fiction, so stay true and stay strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you know tune it again next week when we address another really interesting issue that that that that our Michael will bring to us.

Host: Michael:

Please follow and share our test views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items and therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro. I'm Kelley Buttrick, a video talent who just happens to be doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin. All the interruptions by all their children.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohhh my gosh. So, we're going to talk about what's in someone's office.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We do and I I'm gonna hijack this one because earlier we actually, you know Gayle and I talked about this like what I'm gonna ask each other about the thing in our office and I ask y'all you know ask me why there's not why there's a blank wall in my office. And I think we talked about this before and talking about the hammer in my office, but there is a blank wall that needs a painting in my office. And I moved into the office 15 years ago. And I thought I need to find the perfect painting because this hanging over my clients head and I'm going to see it every day. So, I have a hammer in my desk joining. I talked about the hammer before. I've been staring at that blank wall and I thought. What emotion? What do what? What is this going to evoke? What do I want to look at each day? And I never, 15 years later, I haven't figured out what I want. To look at, it's still.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, now I know which wall you're talking about. I never look at that wall. The one you're going to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wait, so the wall is still blank? The wall is still. Yes. And if you've sat in my office and you sat in that chair. You know, you don't, see it. So, it wouldn't be. Yeah. But I never could figure out what artwork I would want to have day in and day out. What, emotional, what, what thing I'd like to have. Because art is so evocative of emotion. So, the wall remains plain.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now you sit in the frame, said chair in the office layout. Do you know what's above that chair in my office?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yep, what is above that chair in your office that that you would most often see, and does that impact? So, I'll turn it around.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I decided it immediately when I moved into the. Office because I think I had a sense of what I wanted in there, which is a sense of peace. Home. So, it's actually a picture I took of some stacked stones and I know stacked stones, but I didn't stack them. They were there. I'm terrible at that. But they were so beautiful and it's a Gray and kind of drizzly day on Lake Superior, and my husband I had taken a trip up there, I think for our 10th anniversary. And I saw this the stack of stones with the water, and I remember just getting down real low with my camera and taking this photo. And it turned out great. I really liked it. And so I blew it up and I put it on that wall because for me it's the I love water, water and waves. The movement is just so peaceful and it's actually it. It feels like a little bit of a window into time, but also a window into a place of peace. And so I love that photo. It's not the art in my office that gets the most common.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is the most personally meaningful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That makes a lot of sense and that I could totally. I'm imagining in that. Like you're working with someone. They're struggling with something like sometimes as we're working with folks aren't emotions rise our emotions and we have to govern that to some degree. Be aware of it, use it, but also govern it to some degree. And I could totally see in that moment, like, thinking, looking up, seeing that and allowing that calm. Kind of clarify, clarify your thinking. So, I like your choice way better than my blank.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wall. Well, I love the discussion, especially around creating a vibe and in Henry's art. So, good time. Thank you, Doctor Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you so much, Doctor MacBride, for your insights.

Host: Michael:

Thank you all for tuning in tune in next week for another exciting am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Resource: Dr. Gayle MacBride mentions the following book: How to Stop Freaking the %#$@ Out! by Erin Pash and Kyle Keller.

Transcript:

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas psychology partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And today it is my pleasure and honor to introduce my friend, my colleague and my business partner who is matched by his intellect, doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And when I need a thoughtful voice of reason, the understanding of all things psychological, I go to Doctor MacBride for answers, which is why I'm happy that she is both my business partner and podcast partner Gayle. Looking forward to today. And what brings us.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right.

Host: Michael:

If you've never visited Internet forums, you might not know what “am I the asshole” is, in short, someone post the scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. Dan and Gayle. Neither of you have seen or read this, so let's go. Today's post today's question is, am I the asshole for bringing my own food to my best friend's wedding?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe you've got more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe it better be more because I can think of so many scenarios where you're not the asshole for that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can think of a lot of scenarios where they're not the asshole. And I can think of. A lot where they are like, of course, that's probably why Michael reads these.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sure well. To us, though, and maybe why the contributor posted it in the first place.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, because it should be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Please continue.

Host: Michael:

All right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Go ahead.

Host: Michael:

OK, so here's what she says. I've been best friends with someone. Let's call her Abby for years.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Best friends, best friends.

Host: Michael:

When she asked me to help plan her wedding last year, I was thrilled and happy for her. She's always talking about having her dream wedding since we are teenage girls and made me the promise that we would plan each other's weddings together.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This sounds like a rom-com by the way. It also brings back, and I know you're going to read more, but I just want to tell this story just really quick. It brings back to planning my own wedding. My maid of honor. Kind of narrow food palette, and so we just ordered her what she was going to eat because it was really important that she feel included in that day. I ordered her a plate of exactly what she wanted. It was separate from anything else that we had on the menu. But it was going to make her happy. I just. I just want to put that out there anyway. Go on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is she? Is she listening?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I you know. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see Bill.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To find out, yeah, but maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should tag her. At some point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that honestly sounds like the right thing to do before hearing actual. Am I the asshole like it seems like the right thing to do if someone's got some really particular food needs, or really. Particular palette. Being at your wedding seems correct for so in that close, but let's, but let's actually hear.

Kelley Buttrick:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You should hear more.

Host: Michael:

The problem. Yeah. Yeah. So, through the process, the one thing that we disagreed on when planning the reception was the meal plan. We went over the menu options together, but I expressed concerns about the limited choices for my dietary preferences. I'm vegetarian for personal reasons, so I suggested having at least one dish be vegetarian. Abby understood, but ultimately chose meals that better suited the majority of her guests. As she said, the cost was not worth the trouble for a dish that “most people” wouldn't like. I didn't try to argue because ultimately, it's her wedding. But I made the joke saying that I would bring my own Tupperware of food and she said she would kill me if I did. Fast forward to the wedding day. I decided to bring my own prepared meal because I really wasn't satisfied with the catering options. I thought it was a subtle way to address my concerns, and I did discreetly in the kitchen of the. However, when Abby overheard some of her family members helping out in the kitchen of what I had done, she was deeply hurt and upset as they gossiped about it with all. The guests. During the reception, she broke down in tears, feeling insulted and embarrassed by my actions. I apologized and told her it was not my intention to embarrass her, but that I've been a vegetarian for most of her friendship. And that while I was happy for her and her big day, I wasn't going to eat something that I wouldn't enjoy or want. I made a side comment saying that I should have just eaten at home out of frustration and that that seemed to upset her even more. It seemed that my attempt to express my needs ended up causing a rift between us on her special day, leaving us both feeling hurt and distant despite our long history together. Further contact. So, she edited and added this little bit. There was one side salad at the venue, and I did eat it during the reception to not seem rude while declining the entire food offering. During dessert, I went to the kitchen and ate my food just in time to be back in time for the toast. The only thing I ate was the cake further into the night. That being said, I didn't realize that her aunt, uncle and cousin were going to be in the kitchen and tell the other gifts guests that I was eating in there. So, am I the asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is interesting and I just want to jump in and say I can't imagine that the bride and the friend have that this was the first time that they had a conversation about this friend's dietary preferences. I mean, she really is sort of dismissive of this vegetarianism and assumes that it's not going to be good or enjoyable food, and I have to imagine this is in this long friendship. This is not the first time they've had this disagreement; don't you think?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean it whenever we talk about these kinds of things to like they speak as if it's the first time they've ever had any kind of conflict. And I often wonder what the back story is that we don't get to hear since the person's posting in there, what they. Well, they think it's also like one of things that struck me immediately. Because you know when you're having a big, fancy catered event like no one from your family is in the kitchen. So, this is obviously to some degree self-catered.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I wondered about that as well or even a smaller catering company that came in to do it as opposed to catering. That happens at the venue of say.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, which makes me make it really makes me curious about. Now we're jumping into, like, well, maybe it's this or maybe it's that. And I on all of these, I'm always like, well, can we get more information here? Cause I want more information, but what I would do in my office is ask for more information, right. Coming to conclusions which we don't get but that that was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, we don't get to really draw conclusions either. I mean, let's be, let's be fair, we would facilitate a conversation between these two friends, and infant therapy is actually kind of becoming a thing. So, this would be certainly a great conversation to have between these two women.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This would be a terrific conversation to have and like somebody mentioned ROM com like somebody ROM. Comes like, honest, open communication could probably resolve a lot of this earlier on, as well as respecting each other's perspectives on things. You know, I get that I wouldn't want to tailor an entire menu around one person at the same time. You know these days, many people have dietary.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Preferences or needs. And to you know you we always want to plan every meal having planned some events you always want to plan an event where everyone there is going to be able to enjoy their meal within reason within reason.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, I agree. And you know, maybe that the vegetarian option from this caterer was truly not good. I mean, we've all seen that where you know you've got, let's say, a BBQ place and they have this throwaway vegetarian option, but it's not good. And it really would be a travesty to serve. Of it. And in that case, this this bride is really holding on to this idea that the food has to come from this caterer as opposed to, you know, this friend maybe bringing something that was more palatable and also interesting. Then she breaks further down when the friend says, well, gosh, then I should have just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, a year.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Eaten at home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Why does the? Why does that the friend who's known as a vegetarian? Why is it so important to the bride that this woman consumed not only the food at the venue, but eat at the venue? I guess at the table.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And this I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Erase how important it is to this woman.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not super happy with anyone here to be honest, you know this is and one of the problems we run into is that, gosh, I remember this, this someone saying this to me years ago that weddings and funerals like emotions are so high. Weddings and funerals that. Small slights seem to be massive because our emotional level. We're like all of our neurons are firing and everything is coming along and there may be, especially at a wedding, there's often alcohol and so it, it makes the small flights bigger. And I often warn people before a wedding. Something's going to go to shit. Either before or during. The wedding.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. No, you could plan it. And actually, you're quite grateful when something small goes to ship because something's gotta go to shit. You've made so many plans. It is the probable that something is going to fall apart. Not possible. Probably something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. There's so many moving parts in a wedding, but something's really good is shed, and when it goes to shit. Being able to like. Do I need it? Is this a thing that I need to be really upset about? Like when the thing goes to shit. Can I take a breath and go? This is not going to impact my life. You know or will it like? Like is this really going to change? The rest of my life, is this really going to impact anything at all?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sometimes I ask bride asks. Sometimes I ask brides to be who are in my office to consider whether or not any given. Vision is going to be remembered by your guests in the years to come, right? They're coming there for the wedding. The Union of these two people. That's lovely. And, you know, maybe not what the guests are most looking forward to, but then all of these decisions that we're making. You know what? Do they really mean in the grander scheme of things?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And keeping a little bit of perspective, because the ideas are going to be married for. Decades to come. And what do you want to be remembered for? Is anyone going to remember that one of your wedding party brought her own food or didn't be catered option? Now in this case they will because quite a big deal has been made.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But had they asked that question in the beginning, I don't think that this would hit anybody's radar because it would just have been better, normal and acceptable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Abby. Unfortunately, Abby. Unfortunately, I'm sorry I interrupted you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They made it OK. Ohh no, just they made it a thing. Abby the bride. I think this is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, Abby. Abby took Abby took this thing. That probably would make people go, huh? Wonder why she eats in the kitchen. And she made it a thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and to be fair, the additional family members helped make it a thing.

Host: Michael:

Sure. And that's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Part of that, I like. But I also like I'm sure that it was more like. Why cheat in the kitchen? That's weird. Like I can't imagine it being much more than much more than a, huh? Your friend's kind of weird to eat in the kitchen. Not that that would have been fair, I think, because. There are people have. Dietary restrictions that are really, really problematic, and for people who've eaten vegetarian for most of their lives. It's not that they just prefer not to eat meat. It's if someone who eats primarily vegetarian or vegan. It could be even when food is delicious, if it's if it has meat, it could be hard to eat. It could be uncomfortable to eat if you're not accustomed to it. And. And I'm not saying that if that Abby is necessarily required to have an option. Although it would be, I think, polite and respectful to have options available. But I but I but I telling your guests that they not allowed to eat or that they have to eat something is really problematic. Like there's a better. There are a lot better.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Solutions here? Yeah, absolutely.

Host: Michael:

So Dan, before I move on to what the Internet said ultimately where, where do you stand then?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I just don't think she's the asshole here. It sounds like she it sounds like, uh, the original poster tried to tried to be discreet about it. She tried to tell her friend how important it is. She did her best not to make a big deal out of it. Like she didn't eat. She didn't bring her Tupperware to the table and pop it open and start eating right there. She kind of went discreetly. And ate the salad that she could eat or felt comfortable eating. She went and ate in the kitchen. I. I just having a hard time calling her an asshole, someone who has some dietary restrictions or dietary by, but also by choice. I think she tried to do what she could given the situation and I'm going to go. With not the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I'm going to actually take it a step further. So, I don't think the original poster is an asshole. I think the bride is being an asshole. She's being a bridezilla. Absolutely. And I'm gonna loop in the family. I'm gonna go so far as to say the family that ratted her out. That they’re being assholes because they're absolutely pot stirrers. I'm getting some motions from the host here. Yes, they've got started. We recently, the host and I, attended a wedding and something went wrong and I mentioned it to the bride's mother and she went. Don't tell so and so don't tell the bride that this thing happened. And I thought about it. And I thought there's no reason she needs to know this, right? This is her big day. And even if it's fine after the fact, I'm not going to tell her. It was her day. Let her remember it the way it was. Don't stir the fucking pot, people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I totally agree. With that, although. I don't. I don't. I'm not quite ready to call the family asshole* yet because I don't know how much. Like, it's not clear where they're like, huh. That's weird. Or like whether, like, did you see your eating in the kitchen? Oh, my God. That's so awful of her. So, like, if it's the. First one like that kind of thing conversation has happens all the time. At weddings or events? Ohh what is she? Why did he wear that? You know kind of conversations and maybe not like not like in the deeply appalled kind of way. Why did they wear that but more in the like oh that's scary.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I just think they should have had it with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like the bride’s parents, maybe. Or someone else in the wedding party, but. Not with the bride.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's totally true. I would I agree with you on that much. I would I in that situation you tell the bride afterwards so that you. Don't mess with her day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Something novel. The poster who's eating in the kitchen. Hey, noticing you're eating here. Everything OK? Like, what's that about like? Well, we would just take a direct approach.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And if here's the other thing, if family is helping out back to the family, helping out the kitchen, if family is helping out the kitchen, why not create a plate for her?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As someone who eats vegetarian slash vegan most of the time, if I'm in an event, it's not unusual for everyone else to have a different plate than me because they've made arrangements for the vegetarians, vegans in the audience or in the and who.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or gluten freeze. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Are attending and. Everyone else has, as you know, steak or chicken on their plate and they bring me out something that it's a chain and no one goes. Oh my gosh, what is? What is Dan eating? They go ohh they either don't comment or. Ohh, looks like you got vegetables. I'm like. Yeah, I'm. I'm, I don't eat that. OK. And that's it. That's like the end of it. Like it is no big deal. She could have been brought the plate out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That is the biggest failing. So, a family was in the kitchen helping and or the bride somehow obstructed the ability to put the preferred food.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And each develops.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On the same plate and have it at the table, whether she pick it up from the kitchen or something, she should have been able to have the meal at the table on the same plate. It should have been a non-issue if the bride wasn't going to accommodate the food choice or need.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Give her a. Can play like it's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If you're making so many plans that day, this one would not have hurt you to make.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it is so easy to add in something else and I you know, I'm the bride. I mean, you know what? It's really expensive. Bring something vegan. My family's helping in the kitchen. If you brought your own dish, we'll put it on a plate for you and you can eat with everyone else. Wouldn't be great. Oh, absolutely. Would be great. Thank you so much. I. Really appreciate it. Done. Bring your asshole plate. It's not a big deal. I have to. This is so important because.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Given that they have planned their weddings together and talked about this and so intimately involved, I have to imagine that this woman was a maid of honor. I don't know that was read in the original post, but I. I would imagine she's a place of honor in the wedding party. Yeah, so, to overlook, this seems extremely problematic to me. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. I hate to. I hate to use the to blame brides because so much gets tied up in weddings, so I'm not willing to use the, the bridezilla word that you're that you throw out Gayle. Maybe it's the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You don't have to be willing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not willing to go there, but I do think there was some inflexibility here that could have been that could have made this call.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's so nicely said thematic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Way better. Let's say.

Host: Michael:

Well, the Internet mostly agrees with you. They it was pretty universally not the asshole, you know, there were lots of interesting comments along the way, you know, for the most part, I, I'd say probably half of the people who commented, not the asshole weighed in with their dietary preferences, saying I'm vegetarian. Some vegan blah blah, you know, like all kinds of, you know, there are so many different vegetarian options that are acceptable to a wider swath of people, whether it was pasta or and they presented a lot of options like that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, let me just say, like my opinions here, as someone who's relatively food flexible. I still agree that that should have been the option, and so I'm not even coming at this conversation as someone who, you know, identifies as vegetarian or vegan or gluten free. I'm pretty flexible for not to eat a lot of these things, but could and I still think she should have this. So, I don't want this to be just a bias of someone who has a food preference saying that that the bride is being the asshole. So that the poster's not being the asshole it really is coming from me. But for someone who identifies as more food flexible.

Host: Michael:

And people, then the other people did weigh in and say, like, my preference is meat. However, there should still be alternative, so like, and my favorite I think was somebody who said that they were married 30 years ago and we had a asshole vegetarian option. What the hell?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, and that and what bothers me most about this is that I have noticed, you know, as someone who. Chooses different food options. I have noticed more and more that I don't have to plan ahead as much as I used to have to plan ahead. When I go to things, it's pretty rare these days for me not to have a reasonable food option there that doesn't involve meat at almost anything I attend these days, including. Including weddings I've been to so. So, it really surprised me that there wasn't an option or that they didn't like. Again, fix their asshole plan.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I mean even at the conference we recently attended together. Yeah, you had good easy food options and they were nutritious and filling and pretty delicious.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, it's not. It's not hard to do. It's not hard to provide, especially now it's easier when you have buffet options because you can. Can throw out the meat. You know the meat can be separate and you know the other thing. So that and that which is the way they did it at this event. And it's harder when you bring out fixed plates for people like at most like at many weddings, but it could be done without difficulty and it really could have been done in this particular. Case without difficulty.

Host: Michael:

It will, it will add. There was one other contingency online that was kind of interesting, which was the everyone sucks here, and you know the calling out the family calling out the bride calling out the friend because they had that previous conversation and the bride explicitly said please don't do that. Essentially, and you know, so everybody kind of has made poor choices.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, but here's the problem. And Dan, you know this about me is don't identify a problem with without coming up with the solution. So that it fell apart when she said I have a problem and the bride. Went OK, but don't do that. There was no solution offered. The bride should have then come up with a reasonably acceptable solution. She had plenty of runway to do so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Percent I 100% agree with that. I'm still putting the failure on the bride because well I could see a person saying that that the original poster could have been more flexible what the bride wanted the reality is many weddings especially if you're in the wedding part. You may be getting there at, you know, 6:00 for a wedding that takes place at 7:30 for a reception that goes until 11:00 at night, too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And even worse, you're showing up at 6:00 or 7:00 AM for hair and makeup, and then you were attending to. Ohh. This is the girls. This is the girls world, right? In terms of the bride stuff. Yeah. Well, right. So you get your hair and makeup done and then you put your dress on and you help the bride and you know, then you are doing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh God. Oh yeah, I forget. I forget about that being a dude.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know the ceremony and then you have photos after and maybe even before that you've. First, look like there's all this shit going on when during the day, does she have time to swing through and pick something up for herself? She's gonna have to bring this prepared, and it's probably gotta be ready early in the morning and it's gotta be ready for her to go because she may not have eaten all day.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm with you there. Right, so. We have ruled. And this time we agreed with the Internet that doesn't always happen.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, that's true.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And I think one of the other things you guys picked up on that, the Internet kind of hinted at, but didn't quite say which was, you know, the friend did so much to help with the wedding preparation that it feels like this would be a pretty easy Gimme, you know, to accommodate that on a separate plate or something, even as a thank you. You know, if you're not willing to do a whole dish, then something like that. But thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth is stranger than fiction, so stay true. Stay strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we've got another one of these next week looking forward to talking with all of you again.

Host: Michael:

Stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about the seemingly random items in our therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing this show together with flair and finesse. Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing. Michael MacBride. Intro and outro, Kelley Buttrick a voice talent trained in reading other people's words. Cats: CJ. Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children.

Host: Michael:

And as promised, here is the bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You got a book over your shoulder and you know therapists. We all have books. I've got books behind me. It's always something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, that one or this one?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The first one, the one with the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

First one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What is that? What the?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hell is that? That is a book that uses some characters to bleep out the word. fuck, right? So it's essentially how to stop freaking the fuck out. It's about anxiety and it's a really funny, humorous take on things that you can do when breathing. This doesn't work when you're having a panic attack and it's got some great. Suggestions. And they're like, take a cold shower, removing clothing optional chase a squirrel, but don't catch it, cause it might have rabies. Well, but it's. Kind of a humorous taking, giving some ideas of things that you can do when you cope with panic. And I thought it was pretty funny and it was actually written by a relatively local psychotherapy practice and published. And I thought, what a way to support another therapy practice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's cool. I like that. I like that a lot. I may want. To look at. That, by the way. Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Host: Michael:

Great. Well, thanks so much. TuneIn next week for more excitement.

Kelley Buttrick:

Thanks for listening to Veritas views on AITA. Please share.