Podcasts &
Transcripts

During the chat, Dan mentioned the urology episode of Ologies with Alie Ward: "Urology (CROTCH PARTS) with Dr. Fenwa Milhouse." Here's that link: https://www.alieward.com/ologies/urology

And to answer the question about ass or crotch, etiquette says: "always face the stage", which has translated into "the front". So, in the plane, you'd be looking at the cockpit. Therefore, your butt would be looking at your fellow seatmates. [In her 1922 book “Etiquette in Society, in Business, in Politics, and at Home,” Emily Post advised theatergoers to "always face the stage and press as close to the backs of the seats you are facing as you can.”]

And now for the Transcript:

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic dual psychologists.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas psychology partners.

Host: Michael:

Thank you for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I am really excited to have doctor Dan Kessler with me here today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm doctor Dan Kessler and I'm really excited to have doctor Dan Kessler here with me today to begin this process and also my and also his business partner Gayle MacBride, who is incredibly helpful when. Where I have a complex issue and I and I love that we're hosted by the most curious person I have ever met. Michael, do you have an Internet quandary for us today? I'm guessing you.

Host: Michael:

True. I appreciate the warm introduction as well. So for anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about here, we're going to talk about. My vessel which ensure. Somebody posts the scenario that happened to them in real life and says who's the asshole in this situation and that's what we're hoping to determine. Also, if you're new, stick around through the credits. We always have some bonus conversation and know Gayle has something cooked up that she's going to ask Dan about. So we'll see what happens there. But right now, neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this particular topic. Before or read it. Or any of those things so I'll just roll with it. The headline is, Am I the asshole for making my plane seat neighbor uncomfortable?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So the person that sat next to this.

Host: Michael:

Plane like airplane.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Individual on an air.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh plane seat plane seat neighbor. Oh oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're making him uncomfortable. Yeah. Comfortable enough. If you're doing it intentionally, hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I got confused. I got confused by the whole plane. You know, the English language is such a.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Such a conundrum. Yeah. I mean, plain and OK, so plane.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pardon. Yeah, got it.

Host: Michael:

Yes, that I should have spelled it for you though now. So this one says I am 45 year old male just got off a long flight, the kind where even the comfiest seats feel like torture racks. Now I'm a big dude. Not yet booked. Two seats level, but enough for plain seats to be absolute. Hell, book the window seat figure the extra. Extra space would help. There the flight attendant assigns a woman to the middle seat. Nice person. We exchanged greetings, no problem. Here's where things get tricky. Nature called a couple of times during the flight, and let's just say squeezing by in that cramped space is an exercise in contortionism at the best of times. The woman in the middle seat politely refused to get up whenever I needed to use the restroom, causing me to squeeze by her. The lady in the aisle seat was very accommodating and would get up anytime. I were the lady in the middle. Needed to get up. Now I get. It nobody wants. Some sweaty dude brushing past them, I tried my best to minimize contact. Literally sucked in my gut and held my breath like I was underwater. But even with all the contorting, there was some unavoidable brushing past at the end of the flight, the woman makes a passive aggressive comments about personal space and how uncomfortable I made her feel throughout the play. Honestly, I felt terrible. I didn't mean to make her feel that way, but what else was I supposed to do? Hold it for 8 hours. Ask her to physically get up. Since she repeatedly didn't get up and indicated I should squeeze. By I had no reason to think she was bothered by it, and I had the asshole for making her uncomfortable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, so this is gets back to that issue of mandrea that we've talked about intent and my initial brush with the with the clickbaity headline here was that there was some intent that this person was trying to make their seat mate uncomfortable, but there was all this offense. In fact the other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Give. Give our listeners. Yeah. Give our listeners a brief on a men's on men's Rea. As two former forensic psychologists go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And two forensic psychologists. You know, we often think about this concept of mens rea, which really is in legal terms, whether or not you had the forethought and planful nature for the something that you knew that what you were going to do would be would result in XYZ. So in this case. I had assumed that he had mens rea that he was planned fully, intentionally making his teammate uncomfortable as opposed to unintentionally so he did not have planful forethought in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That. Yeah, First off, there is an asshole here, all right? And the asshole is, and I just want to apologize. Yeah, the hassle here is the airline industry. They have progressively shrunken what they refer to as seat pitch, which is the distance between one seat and another seat to such an outrageously narrow proportion. That it really doesn't fit many humans and humans like we do come in a variety of sizes and you know, I don't want to shame this man for being a larger fellow. I’m kind of lucky. I'm five. I used to be 5857. These things happen. But even like putting my relatively not that big a person sized. Frame into an airplane seat can sometimes be hella uncomfortable, and there's there is unavoidable squeezing through and. And contact and I'm mad. I mean, I like, like, come on airlines, can you do a better job of having seats that are comfortable for people?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I think that it cuts into profits and you know, we can get into a whole diatribe of things, right? But that's why they've had to shrink. This is ultimately every little inch, well, every little inch allows them to squeeze.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Had to. I do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

More channel in and I think that's that's problematic. And so the day and age where we are lining pockets of this big businesses, that's what this was and interest stuff. But aside from that unavoidable factor at this point, I don't think that I mean again with lagging that Mens Rea this guy didn't intend.

Host: Michael:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But was aware of the outcome and what I appreciate in this original poster is that he is aware that his larger frame already maybe encroaches on the personal space of someone in these teeny tiny little seats, as a smaller framed woman, I have been in said seat. Felt like I needed to really pull in because someone was sitting next to me that I did not know it was larger than me and just took up more space and that's not and they're not intentionally trying to encroach in my space and you know, I remember a flight in particular where a larger guy was sitting next to me and as much as he was going to try to suck it in and be small on our relatively small. White. There was no way that even the two of us were going to. This without bumping shoulders and you know, I remember drinking my orange juice and my arm kind of locked at my side. And, you know, at one point the cup actually spilled ice on the other on the other person. And I felt terrible because there's just nothing you could do about that face, even if you are the most accommodating of seat mate. So to make a stabbing. Comment at the end is is really unkind and she had a part in that relationship to yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I think that's that's exactly right. We need to traveling, it can suck. And we're often crammed into spaces with lots of people. Sometimes we end up. You can't help, but if you've ever lived in a big city, I used to live in in DC is that biggest city. But I used to commute on the metro. Beautiful, clean, wonderful system. But during rush hour, physical contact between people in the metro. It was nearly unavoidable. It wasn't like, like you see, sometimes the Tokyo subway, where they're literally pushing people in. But there were times when there was, like, you were an unavoidably going to be pressed up against another human being. Like there was nothing you can. Do other than being packed in those tight spaces and airplanes are the same way, you can't always avoid contact with with your neighbor in the seat. You're not always going to be able to avoid bumping into someone going in here and there. You want to minimize that and be as respectful as you can, which at least by his description Opie has done, he went out of his. Way to try.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't you think up the seat like this is my territory and I will not. Move unless I. Have to go back honestly, in that situation, I'd have gotten up because I don't want big guy importing and climbing over me to get out. I was just gotten up. I don't understand why.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no. I yeah. I don't even.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't understand that decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I fly out so I fly a lot. Not. Maybe not a lot. A lot, but but I fly often enough and I'm and I've been some and I, you know, I I'm. I'm not willing to pay the extra ahead of time to get the seat that I want I take what the airline. And. Usually I and I have never had a situation where I was in the middle seat where I often end up where I didn't say excuse me, I need to get out to use the restroom. Where someone hasn't said hasn't just gotten up. I've never had someone like stay there and ask me to go past them like I can't recall a time when someone has.

Speaker

I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Feel like that's happened to me, but again I'm. I'm a smaller woman and, you know, contortion is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I just haven't. I've never had it happen. I've never had someone say no. I usually term. I'm really sorry, but I need to get up and use it and they're like, it's so and. We're always like sure, absolutely. Yeah. And I could tell like, this is like the guy sitting next. She's like, snoring away. And you're like, so how long do I let this guy sleep? How like, my bladder is really started getting like. And then you ask and they get up and they get up because they have to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can't imagine sitting in an aisle or middle and not getting out for the person at the window, but it just seems this seems like social nicety.

Host: Michael:

So. So it's interesting. This was definitely a point of contention on the Internet. So many people were completely there. There was a a divide between the people who are in complete disbelief that this person would not move. They're like, who does that? That doesn't make any.

Speaker

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And then there was an equally strong contingent who was like, people do this all the time. Like they sit in their seat and they built themselves in and they make you climb over them and several people were like, yeah, they look at you like, duh, do the thing or whatever. And never. I'm like, I have never had that experience.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If you say go. Do the thing, then do the thing and you have to understand that this is the size of the person that's going to be doing the thing with you and then without verbally consenting to it, consented to it because you didn't move or you because you have an opportunity to say just a moment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'll get up. Yeah. Now, part of me wanted to be annoyed at him and say, well, you should have. Could have chosen an ILC. Because that would have given you a little extra space too. But then I thought you know what? No. What person would ever make the assumption that others wouldn't get out of the way? Cuz they do get out of the way for you. They just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't feel like we're talking about this thing, and it feels like an episode of Seinfeld. Like, I just, I keep going back to imagining the conversation, even around the shared armrest. What must that have been like between these two people? And it probably would have been a hilarious episode because we have so many assumptions. Built into this kind of travel and the behavior of others, yeah.

Host: Michael:

That was actually one of the comments in here was about the armrest, so. Yeah. Who owns that? Right? There's one per chair. Or is it always to the left or what happens to the person in the middle? They get both and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's no I don't think there's an official etiquette for who owns the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Armrest I don't think there is and as the person who's gotten stuck in the middle, the person in the window feels like they have a right to vote, and then you've got someone on the other side and I've literally been stuck and. And that's my point of annoyance, because that's not something that you really can negotiate and you've got someone who's just firmly planted. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to propose something I'm going to propose that the official rule should be the ILC gets both armrests because or the other side, the middle seat gets both armrests cuz the aisle has an opening to the side and the window has the window. The person in the middle has nothing going for them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. OK. Has the bump up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They should officially get both armrests. I like that, yeah.

Speaker

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yep, I I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think I'm going to negotiate like my elbows are back and your elbows are for when we can both. Use it but. I like. I like you know, the middle seats getting kinda screwed over here so.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I've been sitting in a seat and have my arms on both armrests and suddenly going shit. I wonder if. I want to move my arm over and then they like they're not taking and then like I'm looking over and they're not, they're not taking the armrest. They're like, should I put? My arm back. No, I want to give them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, look, from Minnesota that I could take the lot, the low. Remaining armrest the only.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

One left there's only one. Armrest. I can't take that I have to. That behind no, it's a I’m I'm most annoyed again. We're going to assume positive intent and assume that OP is telling the story exactly as it happened. And if the story happened exactly as it is, no, you're not an asshole. You're a guy who's doing who's overweight.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it's so nice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And doing his best to be as considered as possible. But you got set next to someone who like grabbed a hold of their territory and clung to it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, I'm really particularly annoyed because the person. The middle seat had a chance to do something different and then chose to continue with a set of behaviors that left them feeling resentful and then made a snide passive comment later. Like I think you lose the right to make that when you had a chance to make other decisions and you didn't.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I also think about our middle seat person like I kind of feel like I feel kind of bad for them because they had an opportunity to go to, to be sitting there and go. I'm stuck next to this heavy guy that I don't want to be next to, but like. I'll make what I can of it, because that's the luck of the draw and instead they chose to take a path of resentment and irritation and anger and allowed that to probably fester for a good part of that eight hours. They had an opportunity to just kind of be like, this sucks and no one wants this, but it sucks. And instead they made it into this sucks, and that guy is doing and.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Speaker

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And yeah, yeah, they they they chose to personalize something that isn't that isn't really about them. And that's unfortunate that really is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's doing nothing to me. I like what you said there. I think that's really important we. Do tend to or we can get in the trap of personalizing something that is occurring and feel like it is wrongdoing and feel overly invested in. Then that perception of being wronged and it causes us to behave badly as opposed to not even here necessarily assuming positive intent on the seat mate.

Speaker

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So just understanding that this is a situation that is of everybody's outside of everybody's sort of making.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. We're often seeking to figure out who's to blame. Even today, we're doing this, you know, that's sort of human nature to look for, who there is to blame. And it's so hard to set back to any human to any conflict. But it's an interpersonal conflict or geopolitical conflict and say, like, no one is necessarily to blame if people have a differing, differing perspectives that are valid.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How do we work with this without blaming anyone and try to figure this out in the best way we can?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And. And they say, you know, blame and shame also often go hand in hand here, and we have, we've really neglected to look at where the problem exists, which is again the airline, the seats and how much, what. Pitch where it actually is available to us as consumers, as opposed to this person, did something to me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. So, no, I he's not an asshole. I'm. I'm pretty annoyed with her in the middle. I don't know enough about her to call her an asshole, but I'm really she made some choices here that were pretty petty. At least the way that she's described. She made some choices here. They're pretty petty and completely unnecessary.

Speaker

For me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it would have been more, I would rather personally get up from my seat than have someone kind of climb over me. That's that's uncomfortable. So you're not the asshole? Opaque.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, what were you going to ask?

Host: Michael:

Well, I was going to ask one or more etiquette thing because it it there there. I mean air travel is. I mean, there's just so many things and so many of the people in the comments, you know, just talked about how uncomfortable air travel is. And, you know, all kinds of stuff. Everything's miniaturized. And so on and several of them pointed to Fight Club, the movie where the book there was a scene in there where Brad Pitt's character is passing somebody on the airline, and the question is asked, or crotch, which do I give you as I pass? And the same thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I was thinking this the whole time.

Host: Michael:

And the same thing happens in this scenario right? Like which way do you turn when you are trying to squeeze by somebody and is there a a more polite way of passing when you're stuck in those situations?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For some reason I had this like vague recollection of reading some etiquette posts. That wasn't a post on the Internet. It must have written because it's like this is like pre Internet like 2530 years ago. There is like some correct etiquette for in a theater. The right way to pass and I don't remember which way it is but at some point this has definitely been addressed by some of those like like I'm now on a mission. Michael, can I give you a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Emily post.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mission to like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, you didn't even need to give it. You know that the moment that he's off the hook for a couple of minutes while we're talking, he's going to be looking this up and telling. What the etiquette is?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we will put in the we will, we will put in. The. Show notes what the correct etiquette is, and invite people to weigh in on it. If you don't mind as So what you think the correct etiquette is, and I'm going to use your terminology here. Pass or crotch? Which one is going to be in the person's face cuz that's neither is neither is, neither is good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. And maybe it's just helpful for us to know. Because now we're back in theaters and we're back in airplanes and we're in some sleep crowded spaces, we hadn't been for maybe a few years, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this won't be posted. I'm. Flying in just a couple of days, this won't be posted before then. I won't know, although I'm sure that our hosts here will have an answer for me by close of Business Today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So so again, you weighed in, Michael, is this a good time for me to weigh in? Yeah, you should probably not terribly surprising based on our conversation, I really don't think the OP here is the asshole. I don't need to speak. He sucks. You know, I think nation socks. I I'm it is really unfortunate. I'm disappointed in the seat mate. I wish she would have been a bit more assertive or at least even had a discussion with him about his up and down. I mean what we don't know is how frequent was this. I mean, you can only hold the bladder for so long. But he had prostate problem and that may be a little bit more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When one would would like on on an airplane, but but we don't know those details, I am disappointed in her. I don't know. That she sucks. You know, as far as like and where? Where is she on that dickish slider? But I it is unfortunate that she wasn't a bit more direct in her communication, or at least understood that she was in in an unfortunate situation. So I'm not pleased with her decision there to mutter under her breath, sort of passively. At the end of this, but I don't think. There are assholes here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I yeah, I'm. I'm a little bit more annoyed with her than you are, but I agree there are original part OP here is he's not wrong. Billy said, as per his description. So.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, and the Internet mostly agrees with you. I mean, for the most part, there was a lot of not the asshole. And people who were who divulged their size or gender and talked about, you know what they were comfortable with or what they would have done or, you know, several people who said I'm a totally average or I'm petite and I still touch people, as you know, in this situation, like, there's no way around it.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're going to have physical contact on an airplane with you, with a person who's sitting next to you. Like it or not, you can have some physical contact with them. There's no way to avoid it. It's one of my least favorite. Parts of their.

Host: Michael:

And he did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is the kind of nice thing about traveling with family, then at least the person who's touching you is someone. That you're related to.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, he did actually say in the comments cuz a lot of people asked for info and he was actually very responsive. He went to the bathroom twice during an 8 hour flight, which does not seem excessive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Better than me for sure.

Host: Michael:

I mean it's 4.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I was going to say.

Host: Michael:

Pathways right in. Yeah, out in, out in whatever, but. So there was that there, there was the one that surprised me was there were a number of people who said everybody sucks here, you know, piling on the middle person, but then also saying like, you're a big guy. I'm a big guy. You take the aisle seat. Like, what the hell? Dude? Like, how do you think you're getting any more room in the window seat? And you know that this is going to. At least you know, make people uncomfortable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't understand his calculation of having more room at the window I've.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Never felt that as a.

Host: Michael:

I feel like you lose. Space with the window. Weirdly but, but then they also pointed out that was interesting. Was the fight against being a larger man in the aisle seat? Is the cart and people who hit you repeatedly as they walked through as well, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now it makes that'll make sense. I hadn't thought about about that. But I mean, I'll see probably would have been like I so Full disclosure here, I have inadvertently trained myself with a therapist bladder. Because I'm so afraid of needing to go to the bathroom during a therapy session that I'll frequently like, make that run and pit stop. And I've since learned some excellent pod. This is an excellent podcast. There's an allergies podcast with Allie Ward, by the Way, Great Podcast where she met, talked with the urologist, and how that like, if you go to and I'm not a medical doctor, so nothing I said here. If I'm getting this wrong. Please don't take my advice, but the urologist she spoke with said like, if you go to the bathroom, when you feel that first too much or you take that quick Rd. she called it the road trip peak.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Take that just in case you're kind of training your bladder to signal faster. And I have over 30 plus years of doing therapy and that fear of being trapped in a therapy session needing to pee. I've kind of trained myself to have it, what I call it. The therapist flatter. I don't know if that's a thing or not, but and eight hours twice. That's that's terrific. Like that would be a personal goal of mine to make it only twice during an 8 hour flight, so I you know, kudos to him for that. I would have had. Gotten up at least three times during that flight.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. The only other kind of feedback on the Internet was there, there were a few people who said no assholes here flights suck for everybody. She's just venting. She's probably not really upset at you. You were just an easy target or something, maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like that interpretation because it allows us to assume some positive intents about her that. Perhaps missing someone, but I don't like passive comments. I think they're icky, but you know, I do think this, that that comment is probably.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right. They're icky.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Accurate is more reflective of the situation than truly her annoyance at him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

May have been may have been it. It is hard. I appreciate this this today because that reminds me that since I will be traveling before this is broadcast, reminding me to to, to try to be as show as much grace to my fellow travelers, travelers as I can and not and not get overly annoyed with them so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, come on. No.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. There was a comedian, Red Green always said. Like run this together, keep your stick on the ice, which always makes makes me smile so but. Anyway, thank you. Both again for ripping debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the intern. Forms. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and in this case it's relatively mundane little things that sometimes can wind us up the most.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I thanks. Thanks so much. This has been a great time, Michael, really thanks for bringing us these and stay tuned for the bonus discussion to come after the credits and this is where Michael's also going to tell you to like and follow.

Host: Michael:

Exactly. I always tell you Lake and follow and share Veritas views and name of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits. Like Dan said, we'll have a bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan, it is Summer is a gorgeous day. What is your absolute favorite thing to do? During the summer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We live in Minnesota.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Summers, like 5 minutes long, you guys, they're really wonderful things in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and this year? Right. And sometimes summer doesn't even fall on the weekend. Sometimes summer falls on weekday, and then you're really screwed. So on those years where Summers fall on a weekend like it is today, it's beautiful just being outside and honestly, almost doesn't matter what you're doing. I'm looking forward to being outside. That's it. I got nothing. I got nothing more complicated than.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just look forward to being outside.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Enjoying the sunshine. The sky.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because you know what? Simple pleasures ain't going to last. Ain't going to last year, Minnesota, and, you know, enjoying these moments to kind of file them away, to remember them for those moments that will come inevitably this winter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Well, you shared that you're traveling. So safe travels.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Yeah, Michael, take us out.

Host: Michael:

Thank you. Thank you all for tuning in and check us out next week for a whole other conversation. Have a good one.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic dual psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and today I'm with doctor Dan Kessler. You know you're my favorite psychologist to consult with.

Host: Michael:

There for a moment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I really always get so much out of when we talk about cases together and I am really looking forward to chatting with you today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely, absolutely. And why we went into this crazy ass business plan to get it wasn't crazy as business. I shouldn't say that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It wasn't crazy. That's what this will be. Old news. By the time this airs, but we're at a year.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, been terrific. Been no. This has been has been a good ride and looking forward to continued years in business and continued opportunity to consult on our during our and by the way we're recording these on Sunday mornings everyone. So continued Sunday morning consultations.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not not podcast business. Cheers to that with my water glass.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, you have a situation for us, don't you?

Host: Michael:

I do, but before I tell you what the situation is for anybody who's new out there, if you don't know what a my asshole is, in short, someone posts a scenario and asks readers who's the asshole here and that's what we help. We're hoping to help determine at least. And if you're new, stick around through the credits. We always have some kind. In this conversation afterwards, neither Dan nor Gal are have read this or seen it. I haven't prompted them in any way, I promise. So let's go. I always like to see what they do. Cold anyway, so today's prompt is it's one that's been removed, which for me are always my. Favorite. I love that. Something has happened and they have removed. But we have a screen capture, so a reminder nothing on the Internet is ever actually gone. So this one the post is Am I the asshole for not feeling sorry for my wife when exactly what I told her would happen, happened?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. Yes. Wait, wait, I love Judge. As you know, I love judging books by their cover, but in this case, like, it sounds like he's going to say I told you so. And I told you so is always a dick move. Almost. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They always are. The move and even if you warn someone that it's going to happen, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel bad about it. Cause I'm assuming you were trying to win. Them because it was going. To be an unfortunate outcome, go ahead. And feel bad for them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. So I'm already, I'm already annoyed with them. I’m already annoyed with them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm annoyed, but. The headline is meant to annoy us, so please let me know as well Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. All right. We should, we should listen. To the story, yeah.

Host: Michael:

It's at least there to provoke, I assume so. Yeah. So this is the way we got. We have an old house. There's a 5 inch wide horizontal ledge on the stairway to the basement. My wife likes to store stuff there. I've been telling her for years. It's a bad idea. Whenever I go downstairs to do laundry or put away. Trees. I make sure that ledge is empty. She always says it's a handy place and she just means to clean up. I find stuff there all the time. Bottles, jars, open boxes of garbage bags, lighter fluid, you name it. She came in from the backyard when she was gardening to use the bathroom on her way out, she went downstairs for something. I heard her fall and then screamed. After we got home. From the hospital where they reattached her toe.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. We attached her toe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. Ohh this just reinforces my initial conclusion, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, keep going.

Host: Michael:

Yes. So we're we're back in the hospital, the toes back on which is good. I asked her why she thought that leaving her garden shears on that ledge was a good idea. She says that I'm being an asshole for saying I told you so. I never said those words. I just asked her why she did it. I feel very bad that she got injured. I feel terrible that she feels dumb for having. Leaving a heavy sharp object where it could easily fall. I feel shitty that I didn't see them in time to put them somewhere else to save her. None of that means. That what happened wasn't entirely, predictably, entirely her fault. Once again, for the cheap seats. I did not say I told you so am I the asshole for asking her about her thought process, though?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. And you're sitting in the cheap seats doing so. Sorry. We're supposed to have more discussion, but that's just just because you don't say the words I told you so don't mean that your own intonation and intention isn't. I told you so, and I know you want to assume positive intent assuming that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean, I. No, wait. No. Wait, wait, wait, wait. But don't don't give me too much credit here. Don't assume positive intent. Here's the thing about this. Like, this is a great opportunity to talk about.

Speaker

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The words we say are not always what we say, right. You know, so often couples are in the middle of an argument and one of them will say I'm sorry, but you know, you did this and then the person comes back and says you never apologize. They said yes, I did. I said I'm sorry. No, you didn't. If you say I'm sorry, but if you say I'm sorry but and then go on about other things you've not said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Never.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry. On the other hand, if you say what I did, there was really wrong and I was out of line and I hurt you in doing so. And you don't say the words. I'm sorry you said. I'm sorry. Yeah, he never said I told you so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But he asshole said I told you so, and he is standing on this idea that this was predict. I'm sorry, I was horrified at the story because it didn't feel predictable. Yes, we knew something was going to fall, but garden shears that took off her toe, that is not predictable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no. I mean, yes, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

End up probably being too detailed about what he thought was predictable here, but this is a wildly unfortunate accident that could have really been anywhere. It just happened to be in this place of a perpetual disagreement between these two. Between these two individuals, and that's what he's standing on. Is this perpetual issue that we see often.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Up in our, in our offices between a couple. And then something happens around that potential issue. And then they then they have a bigger argument about something that they've already been arguing about over the years.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, this woman has just been through having a toe reattached. There may be a time down the road, like three years from now where they can laugh about it, but kids.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm looking at our post, who I really just need to not be because you're taking something incredibly serious and the host is going. What the hell I even what the hell?

Host: Michael:

I'm. I'm live. I'm live reading the comments right now and it's hilarious and listening to you, I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't do that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's it. It's like, are you? I mean like, like there may be a time to have this discussion but but and but probably not and immediately on coming back I I just I Full disclosure I've never had any body part chopped off and reattached. So I don't actually know what it's like to lose a toe and have it resewn on, but I imagine it's a traumatic event. You don't know if you don't lose the toe you don't have you going to get back once you get it? Pack. Is it going to take you? That lose that toe. How much pain you get a minute? How long? Like she's dealing with a lot right now. And for him to even bring up anything about it being anything but an accident is awful. 100% awful. And you don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Your spouse to have your back, no matter what. When something awful like this. Happens no matter if there was another judgment call you could have made. You need your spouse unwaveringly on your side. That that response is a fully empathetic man. I am so sorry that happened to you. Is there anything? I can do to help. It's not till Monday morning, quarterback. Where you set the shears.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And they both know that he said it over and over again. There may come a time down the road. Like I can imagine they're going, you know, honey, you were right. I should never have put this year put this years there and then. And then his response should have been. Yeah, but you had no idea this kind of thing would ever happen. It's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Exactly. You ask what your thought process is, so parental. In a partnering relationship, what was your thought process? I might ask my children that, but that is the coded way that he said I told you so. Now defend your thinking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What were you? What were you thinking?

Speaker

OK. Well, she she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Was thinking the same thing. She was always thinking, which is this is a highly convenient place to set something and I will pick it up on my way out. That's all that. It was a very simple and predictable thought process. So this is saying that for years with. Success. But I think the unfortunate thing, but I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really think that this is a great opportunity to to lean into how often we think we say one thing, but we don't say something else like, not only did he say I didn't say I told you so, but then he doubled down on it and tell I told you so and tripled down by saying for those of you in the cheap seats. Which, by the way, earns him another little asshole mark. In addition to the first one. For those of you in the cheap seats, I didn't say that like he's really looking for the Internet to validate the hell out of him. No, you didn't say. I told you so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's gotten so much trouble with his wife about this, and now he's looking. For someone to say no man, it's OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He said. I told you so. He didn't use the words and this is so, so, so important. Not using the words doesn't mean you didn't say the thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Well, there's one one thing.

Host: Michael:

So I I have a there. There is a. There's an important question before I tell you what the Internet said.

Speaker

And you left.

Host: Michael:

That I think it's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I'm curious because you.

Host: Michael:

Interesting. So there's one really not kind comment, but it was funny and I couldn't help but laugh at it. Sorry, but I'll get to what the Internet said in a second, but one of the questions that comes up is an interesting side conversation, which is essentially.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Were like cracking up on that.

Host: Michael:

How do you recover from a moment like this and? Because you will for the rest of your lives, as long as you live in that space. See that ledge or see her toe or whatever, and as a couple, how do you move forward after something like this has happened? Do you have thoughts or comments on that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I do, but go ahead cause I've been sort of like charging full speed ahead on this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One well, you know, I I think when you realize that you have responded poorly, you then move off your triple down spot and really fall on your sword. I'm sorry, I really should have been. I would have liked to have thought I could have been more sympathetic in that.

Speaker

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Moment I really failed you. I'm. I'm really sorry about that. And once that relationship repair maybe has been made, then maybe you talk about as a couple how you want to use that ledge. Maybe just understand that's great thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe not. Yeah, maybe not. This is this is how I mean. I I I the phrase Gayle, you use the exact phrase I was thinking, which is fall on your sword we've talked about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I might have heard you used it once or twice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we've talked before about the elements of an apology. I wronged you. I had a responsibility to you and I wronged you as a result of that wrong, you were harmed. And this is what I'll do differently. These are the core elements of an apology. The words.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And if you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The last one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but the, the and and the clear like the thing that's not this often surprises people. The thing that you don't need to say an apology is. I'm sorry because it's already encapsulated in. I screwed up in screwing up. I hurt you and that's really important to acknowledge. And but the thing that's never an apology is you're well. Where we talk this all the time. Please forgive me. No, you never make an ask US on. You're apologizing to. So how do you repair this? You completely and. I see John Cleese in my head right now, hanging upside down in the movie A fish called Wanda, saying I apologize unreservedly. You haven't seen the movie. It's worthwhile watching the 1980s been a long time, but, I mean, this is where you just apologize. And through this, like, I completely screwed up. I wronged you deeply and powerfully in your time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's been a long time. It's been long.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And I like to think of an apology as a gift that you give to someone else and you are presenting that without expectation of a gift in return, which is their forgiveness now. They may choose to gift you their forgiveness, but that is for them to. Then acknowledge or or decide upon. And I think in the course of an apology, a good apology discussion. If you know, do you forgive me? It can be. It can be a question and that the other I think I think it can be a question. We can disagree on. This not will you but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We'll agree on it. Will this? No, we will disagree because I don't think there should be any. Discussion of the acceptance of the apology, at least not at the time of making. Maybe some point down the road. There's a place for it, but I think that we work. We concentrate too much on forgiveness as part of this process, and forgiveness sometimes can't come pretty.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But here's why I want to keep that, which is if you have missed something and you've fallen on the wrong asshole sword, you need to be told. Hey, man, that was the wrong asshole sword. You fell on. That actually doesn't help me. And so the the.

Speaker

Long.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The request of or asking checking in. Do you forgive me? Allows for an opportunity to say I heard you apologize for this, and while I might appreciate that that's actually not what really hurt me, it was this aspect of it. And so there's an opportunity for correction about the other person's assumption because you know, a lot of times we get into these arguments based on assumptions. We're not checking in and we're not actually having a dialogue about it. Maybe we've missed the mark.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I'm still going to disagree with you because I think that I still don't want to do anything. Thing that smacks of a request for forgiveness. And do you? Do you forgive me? Sort of sounds like a request for forgiveness. How about this? Will you accept this substitution? Did I did I? Did I fully get to all the ways in which I. Hurt you? Did I?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would absolutely accept that, yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Did I fully address all the ways that I hurt you? Because now you're not asking for anything back. You're saying the person might say? No, you didn't. You addressed this and this, but you totally missed the boat on this other thing. And I think you can do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That without asking for forgiveness, I I totally agree. I love that. I think that's beautiful. And what's that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I won the argument. I won the argument. I told you so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I want to take a moment to address the response. Yeah, please do not respond with. It's OK when someone gets an apology, it's not OK. They've literally just wronged you, and they've apologized for it. Your answer can be. Thank you. Because again, you need a gift from another person, but not it's OK. It diminishes the whole thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We don't want to do that. We really want to lean into the fact that this person has made a repair. And you know that. You. That you've accepted that and that can end that episode of disagreement. Hopefully. Now, that's really what's let me move on. An apology is not necessarily the same as moving on, right? An apology is simply acknowledging responsibility for a regrettable incident, but it doesn't help us necessarily move on. It's the first step, but not completion.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is and I think that when we make, we do that and I and I, I have done that from time to time like then that like, oh fuck, yeah, this is totally my fault. I'm I messed up and. And I will say that like part of me wants that immediate. Like it's OK, honey, or. Yeah, I I forgive you. The other person is usually not in a place to do that at that point because you have fallen on your sword because you have taken responsibility. There's still anger in the room. There's still frustration. And then you have to then your next step as the apologize or in this moment. Is to be able to sit with them still being angry with you because when someone says, yeah, honey, I screw. Up after an argument after done some really terrible it doesn't make the feelings.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Go away. No, it doesn't. It does allow you to, I think, move through the cycle of the feeling that you're having and increases the chances that you're going to get to a softer, more accepting place. But you're right, it might not be in that moment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now it probably won't be in that moment because once I mean one of the things we don't, we like emotions. Emotions turn more like boat. This is a terrible analogy I just came up with, but the thing about like when you turn a boat like you don't like and it just turns like especially a big boat, you turn it in like you've made the turn. But then like it and because our emotions have this pressure that stays with us. And when we're pissed because we've been wronged, that apology.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Speaker

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it's still going to.

Host: Michael:

Cool.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mostly for me, a really good apology though really can bring me feeling closer to the other person and it does help shift that feeling much more quickly to feeling heard and cared for, and a lot of that will resolve for me very, very quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Well, and you and I both say this to couples all the time. Like the most powerful thing you can do. In the middle of an argument with your partner. Is accept your own wrongdoing? Yeah. Yeah. It just brings you so much closer together. And it's the thing like we want to do the least in the middle of an argument, but it's probably the most powerful couples move, like. Yeah, well, yeah. What I just said, yeah, that was. And I was wrong. I was dead wrong. Yeah. You're right. Damn right. You were. Yes. And then, like.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sometimes we die on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely doubling down on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That show. We want that closeness and we're feeling really distanced from our partner and so sometimes we might blow up about something that seems sort of insignificant to our partner, but it is that bid for closeness. I need you to understand that you are with me and while we are not the same person, I need to I I am feeling so distanced from you. I need that closeness and sometimes that's what arguing is about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I think about I think about like how many, how often we're. We're working with folks and in a relationship, the couple presumably is coming in to work with us because they love each other and want to stay married. And I mean winning an argument is a disaster.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, there's no such thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Then then your partner loses. And that's not. That's not a team anymore. So what did the Internet say, Michael? We're just, like shitting all over this guy. What did the Internet?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not in couple, not in families.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Say, did they?

Host: Michael:

That's OK it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Did they shit all over him too?

Host: Michael:

It was. It was wildly divisive. I I don't know that I have seen one that has been this split. Right down the middle like there is camp. You're not the asshole and camp, not the OR. You're the asshole. And they had almost equal representation. So before.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, maybe This is why we get couples in our office and we need to teach them this stuff, because clearly there are a lot of people out there that think it's OK to rub. It in your partner space, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I I am. I I I'm. I, I Michael, here's your here's your task. Convince one of us with some argument made that we're out of line because the two of us are as lockstep as possible on this one.

Host: Michael:

The. This was one. Of those things where I read the post, I read the headline. I was like, all right. And then I read the post and I was like, wow, this guy is clearly an asshole cuz like you guys. Both said you don't have to say I told you so without inflecting that. And like you said, like how patronizing to be like, what was your thought process when you decide like Jesus Christ. And so then I read the comments and I was like, what the hell, I I wish it was one of those moments where I wish this forum was not. Anonymous because it'd be really interesting to see the gender breakdown, but almost because there are so many that were like, all right, you're not the asshole. You warned her. This has been a thing, like, come on. She had this coming, which is like, nobody has her coming on to be coming.

Speaker

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, nobody has a total. No, no, no, nobody has that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now, wait, here's the thing. If she somehow blamed him like you should have told me, or you should have moved those shears or that. But that wasn't part of this. And that wasn't part of the fact.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Pattern that you had laid out.

Host: Michael:

No, absolutely. And then the the, not the asshole people, some of the ones that were more nuanced did say your question is tone deaf and stupid like that was a dumb question, but you're essentially like you're not an asshole for asking it. Like I understand kind of how you got. There and then equally on the opposite side was you said it without saying it like, what the hell do you think her answer to that question was going to be? And my favorite was just was just this one that said you said it without saying it. You're an asshole. Fuck you. Well, that is very helpful. Thank you for that constructive criticism.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Correct. Life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, I, I mean I like that the Internet caught on to the idea that, that and I forget what it is. Gayle, you probably know this better than I do. Like there's some massive percentage of communication. Is everything other than the actual.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Words. Yeah, it's like 90.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Percent. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The iceberg, right? Like you see a little bit on top and there's so much in body language and tone. This is why e-mail and texts are so problematic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. And. And to to, to to to to approach it in this way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Who's that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No. All right. Any. What else did anyone say anything that's going to convince us, Michael. OK.

Host: Michael:

No, no, they're not going to change your mind, but there are a couple others they wanted to share. One I thought was really thoughtful, insightful, kind of wonderful comment, which was just like instead of letting this issue pick, you know, faster over however many years, why didn't you embrace what you wanted and either? Put like a ledge on the shelf or put some way to hang things there. Or like, hey, you really want this thing? Let's make that work. Or this really bothers me. Let's take that down or something like address the problem instead of just letting it continue to be a thing. So I like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I kind of like that and I think that sometimes within a partnership, the thing that's really important to me is not going to be important to my partner and we can continue to push back on that. But we may get to that. They're just not going to change. And if it's not that big a deal, then just go in the bathroom and flip the toilet paper roll the other way, because they're never going to remember which way it should go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And. And and they're probably never going to care about it enough to do it. So just like do it yourself and don't worry about it and try. To let go of. Those things, Gayle, you talked about this before and the recent couple we were discussing working with about learning how to tolerate differences and how important it is to recognize when this is not necessarily right or wrong, just.

Speaker

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The difference?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and I often use an example from my own relationship with this is it was really important to me when we got married to have some sort of predictability in cleaning and specifically the bathroom. And my male partner would look and go, but I don't see that they're dirty. It doesn't matter. We've we've been using them for a week. They need to be cleaned and we've got to this place of like, it doesn't matter to me, it's Tuesday. I'll clean the bathroom and literally that's what it was. Is it it? I don't need to see the dirt. I just need to know that my partner wants them cleaned and because, frankly, my spouse is really great and he doesn't make me clean bathrooms. Because I'm one of those people that hate to clean bathrooms, I'll do anything but bathrooms and he'll do them for me. And if Tuesday's the day, then Tuesdays, the day other or not, they look dirty.

Host: Michael:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So you worked out, so you worked out like how do I tolerate this difference in what's important to him and what's important to me, and this is a couple who missed that we frequently talk about missed opportunities and this is a couple that missed the opportunity. I really like that example, Michael and Gayle, your personal example in your life, the example of that. The responder gave it. What a great what a missed opportunity for him to go like, OK, my wife. I'll just book some shelves or.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

How do we accommodate and really, really lean into that that. Preference we have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but we, we, we, we we haven't changed our position. He's an asshole. Yeah. Or I shouldn't say he's an asshole because I don't want to find him. His actions were assholism actions. How about that? Because we don't want to make a mistake.

Host: Michael:

And. True.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In our House we we call it atholic the. Behavior was alcoholic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. What we what? We don't want to do is define a person by their actions in this moment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Especially maybe by their worst action right, or their worst right, we don't. We don't know how he functions on a on a typical day, but this absolutely was dickish and tone deaf, and he is in the wrong.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, my, my, my favorite is and then you know, it wouldn't be the Internet without a bunch of bad puns. So I will end with the light, the light hearted ones which are. There important question which piggy one of them went to market. So that narrows it down. #2 was I seriously don't know. I don't know that you haven't said I told you so. That was kind of bad. The truth hurts. Maybe not as much as a separate toe though. And then sorry buddy, you're really going to have to toe the line on this one.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, stick around for the bonus conversation after this where Gayle asked me some question or another that I will answer Andy.

Host: Michael:

And please follow share and like Veritas views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And like Dan said, see you on the other side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Then we often get into this field. You know, sort of. Putting a toe in the water too, and we get in by by having some, maybe some unusual early experiences working our way to becoming licensed psychologists, and I'm curious, what was one of your early psychology related jobs or volunteer opportunities or something that you did early in your career?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. I have so First off, this is really an I have no idea. When I made the decision to become a psychic. I just I sometimes go, oh, my parents sent me to see a psychologist, and when I was in the 6th grade, blah blah blah, you know, but I I don't. I don't. I don't know if that's. I don't. I think I made the decision before then and I have no recollection as to what moment I decided this to be my career path. Just like has always been a foregone conclusion in my head. That's not terribly interesting for our listeners because it doesn't say anything. Like, oh, that's cool. I don't know. I don't know. I hope I was right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But working out for you so far, the job you did though in service of becoming a psychologist, whether or not you can remember why.

Host: Michael:

I mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I got.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You didn't work a hotline or or or data or.

Host: Michael:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, I did all that stuff. I mean, I I did all that stuff. Yeah, I worked a hotline cuz that's what you do when you're in when you're in college and you're trying to get a little bit of experience and knowledge, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Tax.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I but I don't. Although I will say on I I work in, like in an eating disorder. It was officially eating disorders hotline but but really and this is this is like as I look back on it, it was kind of a recruitment I think for eating disorders like treatment program like I think it was because like if someone you would often transfer them to a counselor and I think that counselor. Was to get them to come in so like, but what's The thing is this was brand new after they added one eight they had 1800 numbers and they were. Pulled up so this number is 1888 and like a number of people reached out and we're like you're using your service hotline and your phone number starts. Out 888 like that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Was terrible. Is that terrible?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And a few people like filled out it, filled out the like the thing. And like 88 anyway, no, it it's I, I I love the field and I've I've enjoyed. I've worked as a forensic psychologist. I've worked. I've taught college classes. I the human behavior and the choices and motivations and drives behind it is endlessly fascinating to me, but I can't recall the moment. So there. Yeah, kind of anticlimactic response. Best I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can do. Excellent. Well, thanks for giving us your.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bath take us out, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, and thanks everyone for tuning in tune again next week for another fascinating am I. That's a debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic dual psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Gayle MacBride, and I gotta say again, one of my favorite times of the week where I get to talk with and bounce ideas off of my business partner, my friend and my colleague, Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A whole lot of nice things to say.

Speaker

You know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just glad I'm. I'm it. We're here and I'm pretty stoked about this cause. Yeah, there's no. This is this is my. Spot fun times. This is fun times. Alright, I think we will.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Find out.

Host: Michael:

Maybe this is the one where you hate me? You're. Like, why did you use this one?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like Michael? Are you kidding me? That one?! Alright.

Host: Michael:

But for anybody who's tuning in for the first time, if you don't know what we're talking about, we basically look at a topic where somebody has posed a scenario and said who is the asshole here? And that's what we hope to determine. Also, if you're new, stick around through the credits. We always have a bonus conversation, so stick around for that. But neither Gayle nor Dan have seen this topic. Before. Or Reddit. So let's go today. It's kind of a longer one, but like some of the other ones that are long, it's worth the read, I think. So. Stick with me that the headline is, Am I the asshole for not checking to see if my sister's boyfriend could afford the restaurant my mom chose?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We'll clean. No. OK, we're done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Then you're really going to have to like go. Into those details for us to follow this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think there's some details here. I think there's some details coming all right.

Host: Michael:

I will definitely unpack it for it, so it starts off by saying not in the US, so we're. Outside of the country, but my sister's 28 and I am 27 also female are from a lower middle class family. Our parents worked very hard to provide for us, so when we both graduated from university, same major and faculty, we agreed that we would take our parents out to eat at a nice place monthly and take turns paying. In addition to helping with what? You can. I met my husband Tom, 33, when I was in my last year of university. He's rich. Only child of two doctors and he himself with a biomedical engineering degree. And he adores my parents. We married last year. Engaged for two years before that. And since we've been engaged, Tom has been paying for our outings. He took my family. To the nicest places, places citing you only live once and we always have the best time. Gun shows what to do, what she loved. And while her pay could have been better, she never struggled financially. She was able to take the family out last year when she decided to pursue a graduate degree. Tom and I said we would still have her monthly meal and just pay for everyone. Jen started seeing her boyfriend Rick, nine months ago, five months into the relationship, Jen asked if she could bring Rick. To our meal and we said yes, Rick was working a similar job. Yeah. You’re with me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good so far. Right. Yeah. I'm. I'm. I'm with you. I'm with you. It's OK. Keep going. Keep going.

Host: Michael:

So Rick was working a similar job to Jens, but in a more senior position. So neither of them make nearly as much as as Tom and Jen. It so happened that my parents craved a certain type of food. When Rick started to join us. So the restaurants we chose were not overly extravagant. Rick noticed how Tom and I always paid and said he would like to cover the bill. Next time everyone said OK, my mom chose a nice restaurant for our last outing. My parents and Tom proceeded as usual, but I knows Rick and Jen looked. Looking a little tense when it was almost time to pay, Jen pulled me aside and asked if she could borrow some money. I told her I would be happy to pay for the meal. Jen said it would make Rick look bad and that to not be able to pay when he said he would. I told Jen that Rick could put everything on his credit card and I would send the money later. Rick ended up doing that and after we sent sent for my parents back home, I asked Rick how much money he would like me to help with. He said he didn't expect to die in with such elites and it was classless of us to spend so much on one meal, Tom said. If he couldn't afford the place, he should have just told us and we would have happily chosen something different. Rick then accused Tom and me of calling him poor and. Beneath us, he said he would rather go into debt than accept our help. I could tell Tom was mad, but he just took me home. Jen later called and said I was inconsiderate for not asking our mom to choose a less pricey restaurant. She said if Tom and I thought the only restaurants we had been dining at so far were normal priced, that we are out of touch with reality, she said. Rick was mad at her for making him lose. Base so who is the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, there are a lot of a lot of. Opportunities to have communicated more clearly that are getting missed and I know we say that a lot here, but ohh my goodness.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We do hold night. This one makes me sad. It makes me sad because nobody was doing any of the bad things that anyone thought that everyone else was doing. And I mean, this gets to that. How much money and how much we start tying our value and judgment and all sorts of other things into.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Income. And personal wealth or non wealth and it's sad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is. I mean, I love that this new boyfriend, I am losing track of names. Sorry. This gentleman in this woman's life wants to be a part of this tradition for the family. I mean, I think that's a really lovely thing, I think. Yeah. There's some easily bruised egos.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Around money and expectation, and I think you. You know, it probably people went into this without really asking enough questions. Like, is this the kind of restaurant I can afford that I want to be spending money at? I sort of assume that this new boyfriend didn't understand maybe the level of expense that was being spent on these meals and was enjoying that. Until all of a sudden he had to, he had to pay for it himself and. And let's be clear, he didn't have to. He offered. And. And. And I think this this. Sister of that boyfriend, she would have known these things and it seems like there was an opportunity for her to prep the boyfriend to just take him aside and say by the way, you know, with all of us going, these meals can really add up if that's something make her so comfortable with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I yeah, I mean what I what I what I want to do is like rollback and look at we could we can look at so many places here where here's a missed opportunity to have a conversation here's a missed opportunity to have a conversation here's a missed opportunity to have a conversation. And each one of those comes for the most part, out of assumptions people are making out of out of and so many opportunities to make a positive, like understanding of it and and make a positive attribution and say oh, this is and so many missed opportunities like and so many and interpersonal conflicts are often.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Assumption.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just a host of missed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Opportunities and they are. And what makes me feel really sad about this is I have to assume the sister and the boyfriend. On a pretty serious relationship and this kind of hurt is the sort of thing that can really divide a family for a very long time. They may not find their way toward a a repair between the, I guess, six of them. That's really hard to think about is that you've got to now make a choice between your family of origin and this person you care about. And are hurt that didn't need to be based on the functions and this opportunities.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And but there I also you know. And while I think there's so many missed opportunities, there's also like would it? The opportunity for anger? I don't. I'll recount to hopefully brief personal story. I was I was in high school and you know, Dad was a government worker. We had a nice house and but not that was a government worker. And I was dating someone who was in a far different financial status than we were. And let's go out to lunch and I forget exactly where we went. But this was 1981 and I was working for like, you know, 3 bucks an hour. And the dinner bill came, and it was like 25 bucks, 25. Dollars $30 which for me. At that point in my life was just just like, because she suggested the restaurant and I'm like, alright, I'll go. Sure thing you know, here I am. I'm taking my girlfriend's older than me and and I had like remember in the moment feeling really put out. I remember in the moment feeling like she wasn't in touch with my financial situation and I had had the opportunity. Had time to like I could have. I could have, although I couldn't have back then, we didn't have the Internet so I couldn't have looked up the place to figure out if it was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You were going to go to Yelp and figure that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Out there's no Yelp. Like there's no like like like like way of looking it up and I'm I'm sure that in my in my 16 year old brain like I got to the place and saw the menu and like and they're like trying to find the least expensive thing on the menu running from my head do I have enough money on me and being scared and anxious and nervous of the whole meal and. She's going. This is this isn't as. Good as the last time I was here. And I'm like, like you could enjoy it but. But the emotions that get tied up in money and what others thought and I do remember feeling a bit resentful in that moment about. Her not getting where I was so I can kind of see that you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I have not exactly a similar experience, but a somewhat you know Michael and I were really new in our careers and we had gotten, got a job and a friend wanted to celebrate and they gave us the choice of three restaurants. And if you know, restaurants in the Minneapolis area, it was, you know, Latino. Mayonnaise or ocean air? And we did have. The Internet and. We were like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, but they're gone now. Great restaurant. Shout out to Chino Latino.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They're gone now. We're gone now. That was absolutely the choice. It was the right choice for the app.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This fear, but you know it still was. It was a really spending night out for us and that was that was hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Even even Chino is, yeah, the other two are. The other two are are outrageously expensive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Outrageously, outrageously, and so to take someone to suggest that you're sort of a double date like the thought was we going to pay for our meal. They were going to pay for theirs. I have always taken that with me. I think so. As Michael. And so when we have suggested a restaurant that we know maybe a little bit of a reach for someone the assumption that we go in with is. We're paying. We suggest it. Then we are treating and we have. We've gone out with. There's a couple that lives nearby that are newer in their lives together and we just won't put that on them because I don't want anyone to to look at that bill and then gulp and feel like they can't. They can't afford it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Right. I mean the, the failures here are many. Yeah, the failure of and I could totally see again if I'm I'm projecting my 16 year old self onto the new boyfriend here going. I wouldn't have wanted to admit this and looked like I, you know, whatever. I and but, but obviously there was a failure there to look up how much this would have cost and kind of do some math in your head. Having recently had a few celebratory meals that I know that they can run up in price, but also a failure on the other on the family, to look up the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let's say if we're going to suggest a restaurant, let, let's suggest someplace that's going to be a whole lot of fun, but isn't going to. They knew the financial situation and the parents knew the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's hidden, it seems a little presumptuous to pick the restaurant and then not expect to pay for it like I would have liked to see the boyfriend say, hey, I'd like to to to pay for the next meal. I'd like to take everyone out. And here is my suggestion of a restaurant. Where is that a price point that he would be comfortable with? And I would have been a really elegant solution to the whole thing.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We've got so many different layers of decision makers. Happening here that you know they have, they have a pattern that's kind of familiar. And so there isn't a worry about those kinds of things. But they've introduced a new element and they didn't they kind of stuck them in the deep end. And I find that to be a bit unfortunate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But like like everyone, again, everyone here had an opportunity. Opie is asking us if she is the asshole. She had an opportunity, had an opportunity to kind of check in and say, hey, this place is going to be this place is going to run like X number of dollars is that is that cool with you not out of a sense of like we can afford it and you can't. But and then her sister had an opportunity to say without it's like not a judgment. Like you're doing what you love. And that's not a field that makes a ton of money. What an opportunity to be like. I mean, I think for everyone here to be able to say, like, no, how about someplace like this that we could.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah, I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And to have that sensitivity around this. Like like to recognize that there can be hurt feelings around money for the for the for the OP to intervene and go. Hey, mom. Hey, Dad, can we pick someplace that's not quite as spendy even behind the scenes for mom and Dad to recognize that that the new boyfriend can't swing that kind of cost for that, their other daughter can't swing that kind of cost for them to look it up. The time and go. Hey, how about this place instead? It's a really great place that we really love. I'd love to take you there and introduce you to this food that I love so much that is also probably going to be a lot less expensive. You know? So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Many opportunities and I would have loved to have seen this boyfriend not just playing accusations and attacks about, you know, being elitist. And those kinds of things because it does sound like he has benefited from some of these meals and now is kind of walking that backward because he can't afford it. And that seems like a move he is making out of just hurt and maybe some shame. So I'm not mad at him about that. But are you? I'm not, I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I'm a little Madam. Ohh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think he. His pride got really wounded and he handled it poorly. But as you often say, you know I'm going to assume positive intent out of this boyfriend. He's trying to keep up and he found it really hard and he tripped big time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Speaker 5

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I totally see where I mean, this is such a like male. You go really, really sucks sometimes and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. It's more delicate than China.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh yeah and I ohh you know. And there's this like if I'm getting I'm always getting and I'm not paying like I am failing as a man. Right. Is this idea that he's that that that he's got so in order to succeed he now see this when he can't do it he's faced with either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Failed in my task as a man or the other person is an asshole. So out of that spot of in that being that that that, that, that, that cognitive conflict, I'm not a real man or that guy is actually or I didn't fail, but that guy's an asshole. He went down the path of accusing and blaming rather than. Confronting the underlying assumption, which is if I can't afford this, I'm not real. Yeah, yeah. Now I've gone really far afield, by the way on this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, it it brings up an interesting psychological concept though. So there it says something about the strength of his ego, right? Yeah. Because I, you know, when I am faced with failure either I suck or the situation sucks, right. Or the other person sucks. And there's there's a bit more ego strength than the other person sucks. So there's less ego strength when I suck. So we can also acknowledge that perhaps there's some good ego strength there, but it's a bit fragile because it's based on his maybe net worth or his ability to pay for dinner. And that's of course not where human worthiness comes from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, it's not. And it just. Again, like so, I think I'm most troubled by that piece by the piece where not the not the initial stuff, but the conflict that escalated afterwards with everyone getting into the blame accusation negativity stuff that just you missed a chance.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so we haven't addressed what are your thoughts on this, sister quietly saying, like, we'll send you some money, put it on the card. Right. And then. We'll send some cash. What do you think about that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again, this is an open for interpretation for many to be able to say like, hey, I know we're not in the same financial situation. I know Mom and I picked this expensive place. We'll happily cover a piece of it. I think is can be interpreted as a really caring thing, and that's how I'm choosing to interpret it like she felt bad and out of this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kind of feeling bad. She wanted to help her sister out. I can also see how that could be interpreted by the sister, as in, in in a negative way if she chooses to. I'm choosing to assume pose.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like this is her initially was like, yeah, OK, that'll work. And then had a workable plan again, I think it seems like from the details that we have then on the back end, the boyfriend had a bigger emotional response. And this is sort of in the position to not really be able to accept the help she initially indicated she was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then. It well now to be fair, though, the sister didn't ask for, she didn't ask for money. She asked for a loan. She said she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We don't have enough on us. Can I borrow?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A few bucks from you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

True. True. OK. So that's the loan, OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then rather than, say, yeah, I can. You know, I can do this or even like, hey. Yeah, why don't I throw on my credit card and you can then loan me the money later and then they could have worked it out later. She kind of jumped to. If you can't afford it, I've got it. So like, I know it came from a good place, but she didn't actually respond to the question.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The question asked was, can you borrow? Can you can? Can you loan me some money? And by the way, there's a linguistic thing I almost got caught in the Minnesota you from the word borrowed. Did you hear that? I've been living in Minnesota.

Speaker

Hi, where are you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

20 years.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Why didn't you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here in Minnesota, people will often say I borrowed him some money. I apologize to all our anyone in Minnesota listening that's incorrect and I just almost fell into it. I know I'm really. I'm really quite, quite quite appalled now. I will say though. However, having lived in the South for 10 years, the phrase might could entirely legitimate.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm surprised that you, Daniel. No grammatically incorrect.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's good. It's great. It's a great phrasing, but we'll get into. That later, that's a whole nother.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. But we have.

Speaker 5

Schedule.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's another Minnesota term that is fantastic and we've both used IT spending. I don't hear that outside of Minnesota when I use it with someone who's not come here, they immediately know what that means. It's great film.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Which is. Bendy oh, absolutely. No, that's Minnesota. No, no, that's a Minnesotan term that I, that's Minnesotan term that I love. But getting back to the whole spending this and the borrowing of this money, I think that was there was a failure there to listen. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't the biggest failure, but it was a failure. Listen, just what she said is can you borrow? Me some money. That's it. Will shoot it. Then they're not from the US. What they would have said is cake. What she said is can you loan me a few bucks so that I can cover this? I'll get it back to you. And the response was. I'll pay for it. And it must have been, I imagine, how hard it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They're. Not from the US dances. They're. Totally not making this potent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Was like, I just imagine her. And boyfriend got enough on me. Can you maybe can can you I guess versus don't ask your sister why you asked your sister. No, I'm not. I don't have to pay for the bill, like I, I hear that whole conversation going. On and then like she screws up the courage to go ask her sister and sisters like I'll cover it. I can see how she can get to that negative space. I know what OP wanted here, and I know she came from a place of love and caring, but she didn't answer the sister's request. She responded to something in. Her own head.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So what I'm what I'm hearing you both say it sounds like is because of all the miscommunication. Everybody sucks here. I mean, is that kind of where you're coming down? No, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, again. Sorry, you know what's coming, Gayle. Everyone is mildly dickish. No one is bad. I would say that the that the new boyfriend got his feelings overly hurt and lashed out, and he's perhaps the one I'm most annoyed at because he missed a couple of first. He missed the opportunity to check it ahead of time and go. I mean, he let his mailing. I really see that. I'm I'm assuming maybe I'm wrong, but I think you just let his mail ego get in the way and I'm more annoyed with him than the others. But every single person missed an opportunity and almost every single. Of them was coming from a good place, so I can't call them dicks. Don't even know, not call them. Mildly dickish. They they.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just going to say. I they're not, in my opinion, not not because it doesn't. It doesn't apply. I don't think nobody sucks, but like they all fail spectacularly just in a sad kind of way. I am annoyed at the boyfriend, but I'm also annoyed at the posters family to not be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now. They all failed. They'll fail.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A little more attentive to the financial discrepancy when choosing the restaurant to begin with, I really think this restaurant should not have been chosen. And that's not the original poster's fault, I mean, but she had an opportunity to kind of coach in there. And then I think then it falls to the boyfriend and how he handled an unfortunate situation, but nobody sucks here. Nobody. Nobody really thought. No one's an asshole. And help them come down in a harsher place. For sure there are no assholes here. I'm just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, you're right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm bummed for this family because I do think this is a rift that is going to follow them for years to come, and we all know that a a really simple miscommunication can lead to decades of hurt and lack of relationship. I mean, it really with family room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And it's it really is you’re. OK, you've moved. Me on this. I moved off of mildly dickish here, but I do think every single one of these people failed. Even even mom and dad. I mean, I've got. I've got adult children, you know, in grad school or having recently completed school and looking for jobs and in jobs or looking for jobs that are. They're in the same place I'm. I'm a 60 year old man. Almost. I've been in psychologists for 30 years like. I'm in a different place financially, certainly than I was when I was their age and if if they said to me and my wife, hey, we really want to take you out to dinner. We want to thank you for the support through grad school, that whatever. And we want to take you out to dinner. I would be immediately going OK. Like I love this place. This is not affordable to them.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This probably be affordable, but maybe isn't. Is it a nicer like? Where can I find the place that that gives us the best bang for the buck as far as being a fancy nice place, but it won't break their bank. I can be thinking about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then when I got there be like, OK, what do I see on the menu that's less expensive? I wouldn't be buying them because I'd. Be thinking about. Them and nothing. By the way, every would do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I might even give them three options. Like I love these three places and then take a little bit of a range, a tighter range of of price points, and then leave the final decision with them.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. But I'm not bragging on myself. Like, ever. I think just about every parent would do that. This is like stand. Yeah. And so the parents failed to to to get this this simple like, no, don't order from the fanciest, don't go to the fanciest, most expensive place. Everybody failed here. But everyone failed from a place of, of, of, of positivity or positive intent. The Internet say Michael, we decided that no one's an asshole. No one's even mildly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because again, maybe other than boyfriend who got like, you're being elitist, like that's a little too much for me, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Never have failed a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would agree with that, that that went. A little over the last 40 miles.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that one a little, but, but no one's terrible here. No one's really an asshole, but they all fail. Ohh, Michael.

Host: Michael:

So the Internet was definitely harsher than you, which is not a surprise I guess, but they they definitely said you're not the asshole like you and your you and your spouse did everything in your power to kind of do the best you could, essentially.

Speaker 5

No.

Host: Michael:

You know, so the specific question they're saying you are not the asshole. They most people who were in that camp pointed out and they they frequently used the word freeloader like Rick was a freeloader for however many.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no. Right. No, no, no. Here's the I'm going to stop you from just saying. Like, I remember being, you know, either in Graduate School or just having gotten out in my first job. I remember, like, going in to buy a car. And I handed the guy my pay stub. And he goes like, OK, so this is every two weeks. Like, no, that's once a month and he went, he, like, gasped with he. Sorry. Like and I remember being in that spot. You know, I don't know where I started with this, but what? What was the comment freeloader? But and I remember that I had family members who took me out to places and paid for a lot of things and I didn't. And was there a balance there?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Three of them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

My answer is no, but they did it out of kindness and it's the same thing that I've done, and that's what a lot of people do when they're younger or not in a good financial place. They do. They do end up taking. More like I have every confidence that my kids will pay me back by doing the same thing for people that they love who are in a different state when they're in a different place down the road. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Another preloading is the absolute just receiving of the and never giving back and it doesn't mean that you have to give back any kind in a financial way. So you might take the kids out for a meal and they may come over and help with house repair work.

Speaker 5

Right. Fate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure. So I no that's he's not a freeloader and never intended.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's not reloading.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To be a freeloader. I'll just keep going now, Michael. I did interrupt you there.

Host: Michael:

And this was this was actually one where the original poster came back and actually offered some information, which is kind of interesting. So she said that we live in Asia. So like, that narrows it down to 2/3 of the population, but then does then go on to say that most of the meals that they have been going to since Rick had joined totaled about $200. For the six of them. And so it was like 150, a 153, twenty $200. And then the one that they went to with Rick, the new boyfriend, it was then $400.00. So it was substantially more and so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh OK, now I would say if.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Change things a bit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If if dinner for six costs $150 at a nice restaurant, I'm kind of changing. Like, if I'm talking about dinner for six at a nice restaurant in Minneapolis, dinner for six at a nice restaurant. 3000. Easy. So if dinner dinner for six is that much translating? Let's just assume it's double there or half there. Now we're talking about an 800. Dollar Bill, I'm not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Even put off by the money I'm put off by the jump in price $100 difference for The Who makes the lease? That's uncool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's substantial. Which is.

Host: Michael:

Well, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Moving on the dickishness, but I really think they they truly failed to think this through on Rick's behalf. What?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. So they weren't they? So they, they, they. Didn't go ahead. Sorry.

Host: Michael:

I'm sorry. What? What the parents said or what the poster said in their defense was like they had been eating at cheaper restaurants several times in a row, four times in a row. And then they kind of got tired of that. So then the parent chose a new restaurant, which was more what they had been doing before Rick had come. So there had been a precedent for those expensive. Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure. But here's the thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that that's changing the contract with Rick. Rick thinks, hey, we at this price point. So that's what we planned for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But here's the thing. I'm going to guess that Rick has a cell phone. I mean, he couldn't tell.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's just been.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Have looked it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A weak position to come back and say that one's kind of crazy. Can we go somewhere else? They shouldn't have put that on him. That would have been socially awkward and talk about losing face like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They. They shouldn't have, but again.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm more annoyed with the family about this than.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was initially yeah, knowing knowing the situation and knowing the like the expense of the restaurant, I am more annoyed with the family there and everyone for not doing it, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And this is an age.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Rick, Rick could look it up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This country and so now we have to take into consideration the pain of losing face in front of your girlfriend's family. That is significant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is. No, that's yeah. Depending on which, depending on which culture we're talking about, the that that is, I, I I've been certainly judging this through. You know, my own American centric perspective. And yes, if that if that is an Asian culture for which that losing face or that. Male pride is even stronger. The masculine sort of ideal is even.

Speaker

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Longer, I think we need to, we need to know a little bit more whether culturally that was a perspective, but but to have some cultural sensitivity here would be would be useful on my part. Continue Michael please.

Host: Michael:

So yeah, so then the larger, the larger contingent was more everybody sucks here and this one kind of encapsulates pretty neatly. I think what most of them say. So it was everyone sucks here, I guess, which is kind of like where you guys are like I don't know. And then then they went on to say honestly think that your parents are a little rude here. I guess we don't know how expensive the restaurant is, but a very fancy restaurant for six people could run $1000 or more here. I'm not sure where you guys live. So yeah, if your parents knew he was going to pay and pick a really fancy place.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

As for the asshole, the elitist shit Rick was spouting afterwards, that is just simply a man doubling down after being embarrassed and trying to save face. Everything about this evening and the people involved suck especially the communication.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I can see that perspective. I'm not quite willing to go that far, but again. The cost differential has moved a few of these people in back into the mildly dish category.

Host: Michael:

Would you agree, Gayle?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, so, but mostly still this is mostly a failure. Front, you know, failures to to look into things, failures to communicate, failures to failures, to failures. Too much more than I think it is. People intentionally being jerks or being uncaring or unfeeling. But no one took the time to communicate and look things up and have discussions that they needed.

Host: Michael:

To have. Yeah. And Gayle, I believe that. That restaurant choice that we had, she offered little descriptions. As I recall, it was like Chino Latino Asian Fusion Mannies, a steakhouse kind of spendy. That was the first time I had ever seen the word spendy. For. And then Ocean Place also kind of spendy or something long seafood also spend?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I think you're right. There was there was a, there was a hint in the communication that it would have been in the bar budget.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, but. The reoccurring theme throughout most of the comments was why didn't Rick look up the menu and she did confirm they do reliably have Internet service and the menus were available and right? I mean doing those due diligence. But I think like you guys both pointed out kind of lulled into a. Sense of oh, this is. What is? I can afford this. This is. No big deal, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I if I'm, if I'm paying for a bill and I have some, I mean again I even today if someone asks me like to let's go out to whatever restaurant. Right. Yeah. Let me give some thought. And I would like to look it up. I would I would want to know what the, what the price point was for the restaurant. Whether there was food there that you know that that, that that we would enjoy like I would spend some time looking at it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sure. Well, thank you both.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like ready to giving three choices, by the way, that's a great idea. Rather than just saying this is where I want to eat, I would probably I would. I would. I would hope that I would think. To do that, say.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, here are the three options. Yeah, well, thank you both for another riveting debate, and that glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet. Remember, morality is often. Shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And not when I say the truth is strange or stranger than fiction. But you know, this is just an opportunity to remember. Please communicate and positive intent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think really underscoring that whenever you're in an interpersonal conflict, especially if it's a conflict with someone you love, assuming positive intent is so critical and so many opportunities are missed there. And I'll say it I've made that mistake myself of of like, assuming a negative intent and just like anyway, join us next time as we wade through other. Intriguing. Am I the asshole?

Host: Michael:

Thread. Yeah. Please follow and share Veritas views on any of the podcast platforms, your numbers. And friends and as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, I've been a psychologist for like, I don't know, like 30. I've been being a therapist for, like, 3537 years in a psychology. How you've been to psychologist like 20 something plus years. How did you? How did you? Get here well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You did in the forensic world and maybe like many of us, I stumbled into it. So I'm going to tell just kind of a brief recounting. I was in Graduate School knowing that I was going to apply to, to go on to grad school and. They start letting you know that you need to get some experience to be a good applicant, so I thought, well, I need to do something and none of the labs on campus were hiring students or they weren't work. I wanted to do. I didn't particularly want to. With the mice, so it was on me to find something, and weirdly enough, about 8 miles from the house that I grew up in was a from the hospital and I happened to get in touch with a woman doctor, and she was doing an MNPI research on women in the forensic facility and. I was allowed to go in. I had keys to the place and I would go up to this. Old school hospital room. There's an old patient room and sit at a desk and code files and I thought that was really interesting, really cool and working with these brilliant women. One of the women was a professor at the University of Michigan and then Dr. Shaver was. It was just so cool to be a part of that research team and to work in this hospital. Setting and to kind of learn more about not guilty by reason of insanity and just really what my appetite for forensic work in general. So that was my first job. It was volunteer was unpaid, but it looks good on a resume and got me into grad school.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It would, but it would not have helped you to pay for an expensive restaurant.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And volunteer hours? No. But you know what? I will tell you after she was wonderful and she would take her team out for dinner, and she paid.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wonderful. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks for tuning in. Tune again next week for another am I the asshole debate. And I think next week we'll flip the coin and let Dan tell the story about how he got started.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic dual psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. And with me today. And about every day.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Very, very much everyday.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sometimes I should say better or worse, but I got one of those on the other the other. The other man joining us in this podcast anyway, Doctor Dan Kessler. Welcome. Thank you for being with me and being my partner in these.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Things one of the one of the things about the business stuff is there's like no avoiding your business partner and you end up talking to each other just about every day. So, but no, but he said differently, this podcast is really a bright spot. In in in my weekend recording this cause we get to do what's the most enjoyable part of the bar business, which is. Kind of puzzling through difficult situations, and so I'm really I really look forward to this. We record this podcast on Sunday mornings. There's a little insight into what are we doing here, what we're doing here and this is a terrific part of the week. So yeah, Michael, you. Always bring us something interesting. Yeah. Fire away, man.

Host: Michael:

Before we get to the topic at hand, for the newbies out there, this is your first episode and you don't know what Am I The Asshole is. In short, I find a post that somebody has suggested a scenario said hey, this thing happened and then their question is who's the asshole here? That's we're going to help determine. And if you're also new, you should definitely stick around through the credits. We always have a bonus conversation after that. Neither Dan nor Gayle have read this. Or seen it. Or any of that stuff. So let's go. Today's prompt is am I the asshole for telling my husband that if he pays me my hourly rate that I will do more housework?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, I mean I have to assume I like I like that sometimes. I Michael, I my apology. Well, I'm not going to apologize. I don't mean it. I like just jumping in here and making a few like book by its cover comments and right off the bat, I think she's it sounds like she's trying to make a point here. Hopefully she's not acting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Should make a point. It's a bit of a dickish comment, but I kind of I kind of get where she might. Be coming from, yeah, so?

Speaker

Ohh. So.

Host: Michael:

Just me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I suspect my wife might might get. It too, alright. Let's hear. Let's hear the rest of this. Michael, before I just incriminate myself too much.

Host: Michael:

So this is. This is the rest of it, so it starts off and says I'm a steam fitter, which was something I did not know. So steam fitter is slightly different than a pipe fitter. Steam fitter deals with high pressure pipes essentially so they do kind of similar things. Anyway that was what I looked up but I've been at it for. File now and I am in supervision with bonuses and incentives, but not counting benefits I earn over $100.00 an hour. I also work out of town. I started doing that once the kids were old enough to take care of themselves with their data at home. So when my youngest was in middle school and the oldest was a junior in high school, it's great. Our retirement savings are piling up and we have been able to splurge. And the kids and ourselves. My husband is upset, however, that because I decided to pay for a cleaning lady, he and I discussed it and we agreed that him and the kids don't do a great job of keeping the house clean and tidy while I'm away. I hated coming home to a mess. It caused a few fights and because of that, it was like they expected me to come home and clean up after them. Having the cleaning lady is fantastic. I come home to clean house and I am happier. My kids have more time to study and do extracurriculars. They still have chores and they are. Will expect to clean up after themselves, but we have the money and this is a luxury that I want my husband I came. My husband came to me the last time I was home and said we should cut back on the service when I'm home, that I should be doing more of the homework, housework. He thinks that we are wasting money. I said that I worked 14 days in a row and those are 13 hour days. Yes, it's mostly paperwork, but his job as a teacher isn't much more physically challenging. I said that I could offer him two options. One. We wanted we could completely get rid of the service and him and the kids could make the house, make sure the house was in good shape for when I got home or two, he could pay me my hourly rate to do the extra house work while I'm on my days off, he was upset with me and says that I'm being financially manipulative. I think if he and the kids actually did what they're supposed to when I'm away. This wouldn't be an issue. I also think we can afford it. So what's the big deal? Who's being the asshole here, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Off the bat, I'm jumping in here and saying this is the classic difference, not right and wrong. Well, so some. So First off, yeah, yeah, he's she's not an asshole. And she's making a point here and I'm I'm with her. But. But but moving away from that for a second, we're constantly working on this question of, like, when a couple has a difference. And here they are differently evaluating the money spent on a cleaning service. Well, I want to start with that. Whenever working with a couple, I want to start with like, let's talk about how you're valuing the money spent on the service.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Versus how you're valuing the money spent in the service, because neither one of you is necessarily wrong about the money end of it. Now, we definitely have the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. But they're also.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wrong here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Valuing the cleanliness of the house and when that gets. Cleaned so there. Are. Two fundamental differences here that we would be taking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Out right. The different I like that, too. Yeah, they're differently. Valuing the what? A clean house means and what it looks like. What's important different?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What it looked like too, maybe, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And they're differently. Yeah, there's many times. My wife will ask me, did you clean the kitchen? And I'm like, oh, absolutely. And then she'll go down and she'll clean the kitchen. And I'm like, but it was clean. And she's like, I thought you cleaned the kitchen. And I'm like I did, and it's not clean. It's. And I have a we have a different perspective on what a clean kitchen looks like. I'm I'm. I'm. I'm working on it. I really am. If you're listening, honey, I'm really working on it. I'm just. I just. I'm. Not there yet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael's laughing because similar conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ah ah yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm just going to diverge for just a moment. There's always something left. Kind like I cleaned the kitchen up. It got this plate is still out. I don't understand.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. Yeah, yeah. Have you been talking to my wife, haven't you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no. These are common differences. We we talk about this more not to to to make this about ourselves, but to show how common these differences are between couples, even really loving healthy couples.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, anyway. Yeah, yeah. And it's learning and so much of the couples work we do is learning how to tolerate the differences and acknowledge that you value this. And I value this. And then how do we bring those values together in a way because when our values differ, we tend to be like, no, you're wrong. Because you don't value this. No, you're wrong. You don't value this, and getting a couple to understand that there's that there are differences, yeah.

Speaker

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, yes. Now I think this does snap a little of the if you know this then you have to get your nose pierced conversation from a couple of episodes ago if you didn't hear it, go back and listen because what's not reasonable here is the response. Pay me my hourly wage because really and truly at the end of the day we have a household income.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or whether you have separate checking accounts or how this works, there's a lot. Have money. And now we're just shuffling, offering to shuffle that around as opposed to paying a house cleaner, which is really a different scenario. So we're not comparing apples and oranges than that. I think she is trying to make a point and it's sort of ineffective communication technique between the couple around this difference. If that don't pay me my wage. So she's trying to make a point, but it's not landing. Well, and it's distracting from the the issue at hand, which is the difference. She's making it more about the money and less about her time.

Speaker

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, the reality is she's also offered an option that I don't think is acceptable and I want to talk to couples about that as well as, especially in parenting. But in couple work in general too, don't ever offer, don't ever offer an option that's not actually an option that you could accept. So if he says great, I will. Absolutely. Let's set up an account. We're going to pay you. You know your hourly wage for everything you do in California. She's going to go. Oh, shit. What did I just do? What did I just offer? Because now I'm working with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Nowadays times 14 days and now I'm coming home and doing all of this. She is going to pile resentment. She's not going to want to do it. It's not really an option, so.

Speaker

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What? She never has a table.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's not. And she's trying to make a point. I like. I have multiple feelings, but First off, I like the point she's making to some degree. Like like our time is valuable. I value my time with my family and I value my time. And you know, my work time is valued by the company I work for. Who pays me very handsomely for the work I do my time at home. Is valuable to me and it's. Enable enough to me to spend some of that money that my workplace has given me in order to so that I don't spend the time I could be spending either relaxing or with my family cleaning her way of doing it is a bit of a a power move, and I've tried in my head to like flip the genders around. I'm assuming this is we're assuming she's female and maybe. She is. She is. She identifies. OK, so you know, if I flip this around, I really I like, get angry if I flip it around because then it's the classic paradigm of the guy who makes the the sort. Whole. Historically, classic paradigm of the guy who makes more money, who holds that over his partner's head by going? I'm making enough money that you should be, you know. And so I get angry when I flip the genders less so than I do with the genders where they are because like, we also have this historically probably accurate perspective of him expecting her to do all the cleaning and her being dissatisfied with the work that he's doing. Again, so heteronormative, I apologize for this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm not as angry as you are because I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I get angry when I flip the genders. I don't get angry when I don't flip the genders.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm not. I'm not angry either way, exactly. I don't like how they're going about. But there seems like here we've got one partner who is away 14 days at a time and then coming home and we have another partner who's doing a lot of primary parenting and household things. But there is some level of expectation that when your partner is away, you are you've got a bit of a lift going on there that is different.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And there are expectations that perhaps you keep up with the House in a more aggressive way because of this imbalance of time at home and business of gender.

Speaker

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right I to to be clear, he's way more. Wrong than she is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Should be absolutely clear here. He he's the way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And we are also assuming he works outside the home, but if he doesn't. Work outside, that's all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He does. No, he does. He's a T-shirt.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, that's right, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I am more upset with him than with her. Yeah, but but I. But I'm still getting. I still really like I take I OK angry is too strong a word there because I'm not really angry at anyone here. I think that's another one of those like. Yeah it's more.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Annoying.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Knowing that like like I mean I would be angry if a guy was holding the money over the woman over the wifes head. That would make me angry, but it's it's annoying because this is a difference I value. I value being to put that money aside for a cleaning person instead of spending on a cleaning person. You value the time with family. Let's talk about the difference in the values. And come to a place where where we can be where we can like we're working together to come to a solution rather than these kind of ultimatums.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Back and forth.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would love to also explore what he would prefer to do with that money being spent on the House cleaner. If there's a difference there and what is he worried about in terms of, you know, letting this money go and not and you know, and saving it or or putting it somewhere else. Like, what does that mean to him? Maybe that means that they are compromising on travel together or something like that. You know, we don't we don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No this. These differences come up like all the time in in couples like I value I value the. Having to cook dinner. So I want to order a pizza I haven't delivered will. Yeah, but I can make a pizza for 5 bucks. And if I have it delivered, it's going to be. I don't even know. I don't have pizza delivered. I 30 bucks. I'm guessing so. Like, I value that the other person. Well, I value the time I get a pizza delivered. I spend the whole time afternoon with the family, and I have the pizza deliver and the extra $25.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, probably.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Worth the hour? It took me to do the pizza and maybe another half hour to clean up that hour and a half is way worth $25 and the live value I could totally see that both being right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And it's hard to get folks to sometimes move in the direction of the other. Even if you explore these differences and land out and go. Yeah. But I still want to spend the money. Yeah, I still want spend the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Time and now. I want to pull Kessler for a moment and I just want to imagine, reimagine the facts and ever reimagine the facts where he says to her, honey, you were.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On the road. So much and I really am so grateful for the time that you're able to spend with us and be at home. Please don't worry about the house cleaning. I want to make sure that it's clean when you when you. Get home and I want to make sure that you don't ever have to do it when you're home until you want to, right? And that he hires the house cleaner. She's got it all arranged. She's picked this house cleaner out and does all the payments that just. Does it for. Her even just a mental load in organizing and scheduling, and I can totally imagine in this scenario she's got this house cleaner coming in. She's scheduled it on the calendar. She's done the entire mental load of this while she's away, and he's like, just sitting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh God does.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There. And I want I want it the other way around for her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love that. Wouldn't that be delightful if he went? If he was able to find her, find her place to where she is and say this is so valuable to you, honey. Like this means so much to you. I know you're getting home Friday evening. I will plan on having a cleaning person come Friday morning.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Who was he? MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, it's spotless, and then they'll come once while you're gone. Or while you're here. And you know if he doesn't. If he's not worried about the messy house, then the then the cleaning person can come Friday morning before she gets back and, you know, maybe we say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In one week or whatever, but like I totally see the value in in your reimagining where they where they gather and say yeah, this is this is meaningful enough for us to find a happy place with it and all the time with couples we're trying to find that spot. Like the challenge is finding the spot where they're not compromising where each person is giving in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And losing something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But they're finding a win win where each person gets feels like they gain because in the end it's the two of them against the world. So how do they stop competing?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course. And. And you have to ask is. This hill worth dying. Am I going to take down my relationship over this particular issue? Is it worth it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I like. I'm a I'm a little annoyed about the like cause because we both know that the that the offer is disingenuous. Yeah. You know, I'm. I'm a little annoyed about that. But but she her point is meaningful. Like, I am working my ass off spending two weeks away from my family out of every month. The last thing I want to do is clean this asshole. That's when I get home and I just. I'm imagining her. I'm. So, like picturing in my mind's eye like her driving back from her lengthy time away going Oh my God, what is the house going to look like when I get home? I'm going to go home. It's going to be.

Speaker

Yeah, I will.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say in here too, really glad, she said. The kids are still doing chores. We're not, you know, sweeping in and then just making, you know, how separate whatsoever. She's still expecting the children in the house to do some basic stuff so that they don't lose out on the opportunity to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

After themselves and learn some of those maintenance things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I'm. I'm I'm more frustrated and this comes up all the time in these discussions. I'm more frustrated that the couple didn't sit down and say we have a problem. We have a difference of opinion about how to spend our money. We have a difference of opinion about what is clean and what's not clean. How do we manage this difference?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Way where both of us get our needs met or our desires met, you know and we’re able to have a really happy house and there's a there are opportunities here and as this couple of. Like the more they talk, the more entrenched they became and like, this is the way it should be done and the more angry they got that the other one wasn't doing it the way they should do it really.

Speaker

M.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Frustrating, really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we're sort of at the place where we get to drop our determination is that.

Host: Michael:

I was. I was just going to ask. I mean, I have a lot of interesting things from the Internet and my own kind of thoughts. But before I do that, where, where do you guys?

Speaker

Oh good.

Host: Michael:

Stand then if.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You push comes to shove. What do you say, Dan? I think everyone's mildly dickish here. Nobody is an asshole. Nobody is a terrible person, but they're not. Working together and they're not. I mean, the kids are great. Thanks for doing the chores. And so I would say both husband wife here are being mildly dickish and that they're not willing to hear the others perspective and try to work towards something really meaningful and bring them together. So that's what.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mildly Danish from Kessler, I'm going to go on my on my slider scale. I like this this slider scale of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

My other day everyone's mildly thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wholeness and I find her to be kind of like at  a 2 or a 3 and the hubby to be at like a 6 or a 7. He's more of an asshole than her and because of the disingenuousness, disingenuousness. I can't say that. Yeah.

Speaker

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Made him more of a dick than her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of the offer, I find that to be probably the most irritating part of this, and so I would put her at maybe like that three. It's a problem she shouldn't have talked to. She should have communicated that way about it, even if it's a perpetual issue for them. But boy, his response is it's not OK. He really needs. To to be more supportive of how to get this get the House work done. Quite frankly, if he doesn't want the house cleaner then man up and do the asshole chores and just get them done. You don't expect the wife gone for two weeks to do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It let me play devil's let me play husband's advocate here for a second, with apologies for the. But anyway, I spend 2 weeks while you're gone. I'm managing my job. I'm managing our children. I'm managing the house. I'm a single dad for the. Whole 2 weeks, the house isn't spotless. I worked my ass off. Teachers don't make a ton of money, and now I come home and you're not valuing my time. My effort, my all the things that I do because the house isn't as clean as you would like it to be. When you come through after being gone for two. Weeks like how unfair you're being.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The hope winner, I think. I think it's wonderful. I think it's one or the other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't agree with him. By the way, I don't agree with him.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Regardless of gender flip, I think that it is not an unrealistic ask to say hey, want the house just in order, right when I get home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, what if it's in from again, from his perspective, it is in order from his perspective, the house is fine and she's coming home. And having these higher.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Expectations that he doesn't find to be that he. Finds to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Problematic and there's a reason there's a reasonable solution here, which is that's fine. I'm not asking you to do more, I am just simply saying I'm going to come in and have a professional take care of this so that neither of us have to worry about it and we don't have to. Argue about the fact that you're not doing it to my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Specifications now for the record, I don't necessarily agree with them. I'm just trying to find a place cause I think where I put them. I put them more or less equal on the on the I put them in like they're both being kind of mildly dickish. I don't put either one of them in a worse position, but I'm I want to be a little bit understanding is like cause I've and again the genders are usually flip, but I've seen situations where moms are like stay at home mom, they're not stay home moms, they're they're working moms. Husband is gone on a work trip.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Comes home and complains, and she's like I spent the last week taking care of our kids and working and doing this. Why are you complaining when you? Come home and I and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And in that scenario and get a house cleaner and she goes ohh. Thank you. That would help so much. That's how that would that more likely play out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I get that like I can't.

Speaker

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think I'm absolutely right. And I think because one has a higher standard, we really need to to create. This is an investment in your relationship. This isn't about right or wrong. This is my spouse wants this tidier than I care about because it is not that important to me to live in this state.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, you're right. You're right. No, I yield. And yell.

Speaker

You know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of math versus the state of clean, I acquiesce on the point. I allow for that extend. Sure. And you do it. It's an investment. He's absolutely wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I give I give. I still think they're both equally mildly dickish. Michael, what did the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Well, it really it fell into two camps and I have to admit like when I read this initially I was, I was totally on the side of the wife. I was like, this is outrageous. The Internet kind of like Dan wore me down a little bit and brought me to more. And everybody sucks or everyone's mildly dickish. What everyone call it exactly. But so the overwhelming response from the people who said you are not the asshole was this person. Encapsulate it pretty neatly. I'm sorry you both worked demanding jobs. Yours sometimes requires travel, but you should be taking care of the housework. Why? Because you're the wife for fucksake. It's 2024. You're both adults. You Co manage the household. If he wants the place. Cleaner. He can either help clean or pay for the cleaner pretending his wife is a maid servant is not an option. You're not the asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like that's that's really well said. That's well. You know, I'm having a hard time disagreeing with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That but wait. But but Brian said he's got 10 down the other side, so.

Speaker

No.

Host: Michael:

Then the the everybody sucks. Things were essentially how she presented it and looking into more what she said. So one of the underlying assumptions is that her job is some way more valued than his because she kind of she seems to be to dan'l point saying like. You know you're teaching. You have this time and you're at home with the kids and like you do a shit job cleaning. Your house. Like what? What the fuck? Like, just do a better job then they said you both need to essentially sit down and come to a better understanding of what clean looks like. And this is a conversation we've had with our kids. Like what does done look like done to me, clean or whatever is different than Gail's perspective or either of our children's perspective. And so we had to have a conversation of like. When we talk about cleaning your room, this is what we mean. And so like having that conversation, I think to your guys's point would be a much better, fruitful use of time to fix. About like, what does it actually look like? And then the the one that really kind of I feel like everybody missed on the line, which was like in the scenario that you guys talked about where she actually says, I'm trying to think of how it went. But anyway, like if he actually took her out on paying her her hourly wage or cleaning the house the way she thinks it is real is realistic. How would that work? You know, like, do they have separate accounts and if they have separate accounts, then why doesn't she just pay for the house cleaner out of her? Separate account and like there's this whole conversation about like separate accounts and accounting and all of. Those things and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That never works out because at the end of the day, most states recognize that you know there's there's sort of this shared financial resource and couples and it really doesn't ever parse out as one person versus another. It really is a shared. No matter how you slice it anyway, come.

Host: Michael:

On and then the only other thing I was going to add was really it reminded me of a couple of the other podcasts you mentioned. The nose rings 1, the unreal unrealistic ask for sure. The other one that kind of reminded me. That was why didn't you make me dinner when you were home sick like that? That over that. That like, you're there. You're in this space. You should also be able to do this thing, you know. And in that case, I would say if the husband is kind of in that spot of like Dan said, dude, I'm keeping the house going for two weeks while you're gone. So it really feels like like you guys said they need to talk about.

Speaker

Ohh yeah yeah.

Host: Michael:

How they're going to spend their money, how they value their time, and so. I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We need to call this the disingenuous ask. You know when, when, when, when? People? In order to make a point, create a disingenuous ask that they know is ridiculous, like the, you know, if you're going to come out of my house, you have to get a nose ring because I got a nose because you got mad at me or, you know, you and it's like you have to pay me. She's not going to set up a separate account into which she deposits, you know, $500. She spent four hours of cleaning at 120. You know, $2.00 an hour and it's, you know, and. And they're going to do the math, and then she's going to use that money for. I don't. I don't know. Yeah. What? Never. I think it's a disingenuous ask, and those are those are not productive, but with a little bit of a tweak, it's not. A terrible like. Hey this is I make this much you make. I do make this much and I make that much like I could make I. Could. Be home. But this is a lifestyle decision we've made together.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hopefully.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And made this life. Yeah, hopefully, yes. But we're making assumption. Yeah. Since we've made this lifestyle decision together, let's let's let's include this in our in our calculations so that we have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cost of you know. Parking garage when you work downtown and you, you just you need to have a place to park and that that's an added expense to to working where you do this happens to be a different kind of expense and in that relationship and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right and including these lifestyle expenses is important though. What else do the anything else, the Internet of interest, Michael, you're viewed?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right.

Host: Michael:

Apparently I can't unmute myself. Sorry it was fighting me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You got locked in the room.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. No, I mean the, I mean the other, the other kind of contingent of the people who said you're not the asshole is you know they they really struggled to see any perspective of the husband, which I really appreciate it, Dan, that you did a good job of bringing that to light and kind of painting what that perspective looks like. The other people basically said. So you make money, you want time with your family. He doesn't want to do the cleaning. This seems, and you can afford it. Like, what's the big deal? Like, we don't see what the problem is, but no, I think we hit on most of the points.

Speaker

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

So thank you both for another riveting debate glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just for black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh geez. Truth is stranger than fiction, and man, you can't make this stuff up. So thank you to the Internet for providing if you have another entertaining scenario.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we're going to. I'm looking forward to next week when we tackle another one of. Please and stick around for our bonus conversation. I know Michael's supposed to say that, but I'm saying it anyway. Stick around. I have a question for my colleague. That's couples related and money related.

Host: Michael:

Excellent. Well, everybody else, please do follow and share veritest views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. As Dan said, stick around for the bonus conversation and yeah, see you on the other side of the credits.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation nervous.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, Gayle here. Ohh no. Spurred on by this. By this the the discussion about about money and this is a couple that met like some many couples where they have very disparate incomes. And you know, some couples put all their money in one pot. Yeah. Doesn't matter what they what, who earns all the monies in one pot and they spend it. Other couples have different financial arrangements. And officially I always say like, whatever works for you as a couple. You should do whatever the two of you agree on. Whatever works for you as a couple. But I want to know. And I. Suspect officially you say the same thing the couples. But what does Gayle MacBride think about the right way to handle money in a coupled relationship?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, it's. You know me, I absolutely have an opinion about this, but it's in part because so when we got married at the host tonight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Are you going to give up hosting? Have you have you cleared with the host?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of the story? No, you know, he's fine. And getting married, we talked about how are we going to deal with? Finances and you often can't help but look to the role models of, you know, people that you. That you were raised with, right? In this case, we both grew up in two parent households, and both parents were present, so we didn't have an opportunity to see, you know, one parent. Then we partner and shuffle that around like we just had our parents as role models. And it was really striking how different our parents handled money. But neither of us walked away. And went that. Feel like what I want to do. So you know, my parents are well. I mean, Full disclosure, they'll be 80 this year. So they're born in 1924. They've got a particular mindset. My dad took care of certain bills, and these are the ones. And my mom, her income. But she did work outside the home, did groceries and gifts and things like that. It was very vendor very had very traditional conservative kind of kind of split. That was fine. But I always thought, well, that's kind of not right. Because it really is just one pod and Michael's parents were a little bit different. Mom works outside of the home. Last dad was the primary earner, but not that his mom does all the bill paying and she it goes into a pot and then they just have sort of a different relationship to it. It's it's a little more. It's a less, maybe less transparent than than Michael and I have been. So you know we looked at that one but what do we want to do?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so we ultimately, and I think for from my perspective in the world and this is what you're you're asking is it is a pot, it is one pot and at the end of the day, all of the bills are coming out of what you are collectively making. And there has been a time where my husband was not bringing in an outside income or very small outside income when he was adjunct teaching and that's. Really hard, almost like gig work really. And I was a higher income earner and. So creating intentional discussions around that and the contributions that he was making that were non financial, he needed to be a part of that financial discussion because if I had come in with my money, it would have eroded our relationship pretty quickly. And during that time his contributions were valuable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But they were very different contributions. They were non financial but had financial implications because that meant he was in care of our children during the summer and we didn't incur a daycare expense that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like pretty directly and pretty quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To that financial nest egg.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And what I like my perspective is for both members of the couple. So this is what Dan says, not with the I want the couple to pretend as if they have, like, there's one earning amount. Yeah. And nobody is responsible for a greater or lesser amount.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So that whatever they make goes into that one pot and they're completely agnostic as to who makes what and it doesn't matter at all and they each bring in whatever they can. And then in whatever way. But there's no like, oh, this is my money. This is your money. That's now. This is what Dan thinks is the ideal way of doing it. Not necessarily. But yeah, I don't advocate for this, cuz I think when couples work out something different, I'm fine with that. And then when it comes to the whatever work around the house, they have the same exact conversation. It's completely different. Different from the money conversation because it's a time conversation. Your job has a greater demand of this. I don't in in our day job, Gayle, you and I don't don't have. There's no like if you take an hour off.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's. An hour. Let's pay, right, you know. And so for for. Your wife and I, where she has annual leave and sick leave and can take time. She does all of the doctor most all the doctor business with the kids. Not because like, but just because she can take sick leave and I can't. Yeah. And so we we make those determinations and I think the couples should make those determinations around what time they have and what they value and have that conversation completely separate from the dollars.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't know that. I can always exactly be separate, but I hear you. I. Mean, I think.

Host: Michael:

Where possible?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dance would make a lot of sense, but you know, it was really important to me to value my. Husband's time when people providing care.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. No, no, no, absolutely today. But it's separate from the dollars, just the time he has he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is, it is. It's it's helps to give context and understanding to the conclusions that were being made and I suppose translated most easily into the financial. You know if if you weren't able to do this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Right he has, he has. Right. He has time available. You don't have time available, so he carries some more of the time. You have money available. He has less than money, but so that so but you. But you essentially for like it doesn't matter who's like. I really believe that we can get to that place where. No. Even like it doesn't matter. It's one pot of money. Now. I will say just for the reference, if you come in and you come to my office and you have. A totally way of doing it. I completely respect that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, we're talking about Dan and Gayle and not Doctor Kessler and Dr. MacBride, doctor Kessler and Dr. MacBride. Take an agnostic perspective. Gayle and Dan have probably fairly similarly set up households, I think. But and that's part of what I think makes us friends and makes us work. And you and I have always had transparent financial discussions even between the two of us, which is what we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Exactly. And.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know able to. I think have a business together and communicate those things and that's a different kind of relationship, but nonetheless a very close one. When you start, when you start attaching dollars and profession in them, yeah, absolutely. So I think it's important to have that conversation in couples and I think it needs to be clear. And I think it needs to be revisited.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Dollars and sense to it. Yeah, really. All right, cool. I didn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Over time, and it needs to be lovingly negotiated in terms of, because this is never going to be 5050, ever in time dollars.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Well, in, in, in in my own. Life as we as we arc towards as I arc towards retirement, likely before my wife does. How do you then? And that's that'll be an interesting topic of conversation. If we can find something. Like how do you manage when that shifts over time and different values may be at play around dollars as retirement changes income. Anyway we'll get into that another time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But. Again. Or do you readdress it time and time again and you do it lovingly and you do it out of care and respect for your partner. One and done. All right, take it.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Ohh, thanks so much for tuning in. Tune in again next week for another fascinating am I the asshole?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with me today, as always, is Doctor Daniel Kessler and man of many talents.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh dear Lord. Hi and I'm really happy to be here with my business colleague, Dr. MacBride and our intrepid narrator and host, Michael MacBride, for yet another episode. Let's rock.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, thanks. Welcome both of you and for any of the newbies out there who are just joining us. If you don't know what am I the asshole is. In short, someone posts this scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here and that's what we hope to figure out. And if you're new, you should also know to stick around through the credits. We always have a bonus conversation of some variety after the credits. So stick around for that. Neither Dan nor Gayle have read this or seen this before, so let's go. Today's prompt is am I the asshole for trying to open my room door at the doctor's office? And then this, unlike the other ones, require much more elaboration than that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, not obvious.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, but since you both have worked in clinics before, I thought this might be kind of an interesting one. That's what piqued my interest initially. So here's the rest of the situation. I just had an embarrassing situation happen at my doctor's office just now, and I didn't know, am I there? So I had a doctor's appointment today at 10. AM and an urgent dentist appointment at 11:30 AM. My dentist is located about 45 minutes from where my doctor is. This is relevant to the story, I promise. It's also important to note that if you are even 5 minutes late for your doctor's appointment at this office, they won't see you. You have to be on time. I showed up for my doctor's appointment at 9:50 AM. Mama Copay, the medical assistant, showed me back to the room, took my weight, blood pressure, heart rate temperature. Let me know that my doctor would be in shortly and closed the door. My doctor is a good doctor and she's. And sometimes she goes over at her appointments, so it's not uncommon for her to show up in the room 15 to 20 minutes late. Not ideal, but I'm aware of it and try to plan accordingly. I waited 45 minutes for it to come in, but she never did. As I said above, I had a dentist appointment, so I decided to try to leave. I tried to open the door, but the door knob is broken. It turns out the latch didn't move. So I'm literally stuck in the room. I try the knob again. I tap on the door, nobody comes. I jiggle the knob. Nothing. I'm. Click on the door no one hears, so I try to get to it and unlatch it on my end by pushing up on the door knob and turn it at the same time and pulling the door towards me. This made a lot of noise and someone started yelling at me to stop from the other side of the door. They opened the door and there are four of the staff there looking at me like I am wildly unhinged. I apologize. Said that, I was trying to get their attention by knocking, but nobody heard and all I got was ohh we heard. We all heard that was so unnecessary. So I went to the front desk to ask for my refund from the copay since I wasn't seeing and they're all sick. Still looking. I mean, like, I'm a crazy person. I don't know. It's very embarrassing. Yes, I was irritated that I waited so long and no one came. I feel like that's a normal and natural reaction to a situation like this. Apparently this is a known issue with that doorknob. I've been trapped in that room before, but only for a minute. It needs to be fixed or replaced. Seems like a safety issue to me. I don't know what I could have done differently. Wait a few more minutes. Try knocking louder. I'm embarrassed and angry now, and I tried to talk to them, but I really had to get to my dentist appointment and I feel like trying to go back and explain myself was. That's going to make it worse and be more awkward. So am I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The asshole. Oh my goodness gracious. Absolutely. Safety issue. What a huge concern that there is any delay in your ability to exit a room. Yeah. Yeah. You're a little bit faceless.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, let me just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, listening to this here, you and I have both worked with a physician who is notoriously behind the assigned appointment time. I'm trying to be a little bit careful with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I've seen physicians who are notoriously behind behind the appointment. Usually they don't bring you back to the little room though, like you go back to the little room when when the when, the doctor's nearly ready, you know, so you wait 5 or 1015 minutes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ideally ideally for sure, but then yeah, so if you know that your position is behind and typically runs late, I mean there is a little bit of a concern here that that, that this poster has back-to-back these appointments, so mostly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And really didn't allow for enough buffer. Now this is separate from. Am I the asshole for trying to get out of the room? This is really more around this individual's scheduling and this known issue of this position running behind and I think we can get into some positions when you've got two providers you want to see on the same day for different things. It's just two appointments.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know that that the first of which is likely to run long. But I would I would address that at the desk said. Hey, what's so? And so's schedule looking like today. I have an appointment at whatever time I have to be out of the clinic. By this time, I'd make that a known issue to the staff that were rooming me at minimum. There I am in problem solving mode, but mostly because I fail to see how it would be a problem to try to exit a room for any. Reason and feel as though you could. Yeah, like I think I'm straight away from this because this is a bit of a no brainer I think should be able to exit A room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. And I. I'm. I'm frustrated. I mean we we both worked in medical clinics before and I've hospital settings and places and like I've done that thing where you're like, you're in the little room and you're waiting. And like, you open the door and you peek out and you're like, is there anyone going to like you give me? I'm here like. Yeah. I'm in my shorts like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I've helped those people where again sensation is running behind and they're looking around going just means solid, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you should open the door just to you should open the door just a crack. So like. They can't like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That state of undress, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. You're kind of like, is there you try to catch an eye as someone walks by inside. And no, you should never. If anything that like they should be giving the most deep apologies possible for you know, I mean when I'm running, when I'm running like more than two or three minutes late, I feel terrible. Like I'm really. I'm really sorry that I'm. I hate that sitting in the waiting room thing. And if someone's waiting for for more than a couple of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Huh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the clinic staff at the very least, should be poking their head in and be like, hey, doctors so and so is running late. They'll they'll be here in, like, a couple of minutes or they're caught up in the hospital and they may be 15 minutes. Whatever. That's just just courtesy this person got. Yeah. This person, this is like finding a new Doctor.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Kelley Buttrick:

And then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In in my world, if you can't feel if you can't be respected in the in the in the office enough to like have a door that doesn't lock mean for fucksake.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now. Yeah. I think though is I'm a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Imagining this scenario and this person is escalating, I wonder if that isn't what the staff was responding to like because it may have from the staff perspective, looked greater than necessary. Now. Again, I think it's a customer service issue. Someone should have come to the door and opened that and offered to help this poor person.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I find it hard to believe that having worked in medical clinics, that someone isn't nearby going fuck. That door always does that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But. Yeah. So. Sorry, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I would. I would hope that like there's a, there's a uniform. You're not the asshole in this one just because it's it's it's. Yeah. I mean, I sorry Michael, but this one strikes me just as.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bye for now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A like a I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The black and. White well look.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't see the issue here, did am I? Are we missing something that the Internet say? Oh yeah, you're you're an asshole for like what are what? Are we missing here, Michael? Well. Look like. Yeah, no brainer.

Host: Michael:

This first so 111 conversation that was really interesting, that Hank came out of this and initially when I looked at this, I was imagining a scenario where they accidentally opened a doctor's office door into somebody else's. That's right. Yeah, something like that. Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Where I thought.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This was going. Yeah. Yeah, like they. They took, they got up, they went to the. Bathroom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Long room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And they came back to they all look alike and they walked in and there was someone. Like getting an exam and really. You know, like that. That's where I thought this might be going, but that would be like. Yeah, you should ask but one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no.

Host: Michael:

Of the side conversations I found interesting, this is how long do you wait? And I know like my. The doctor that I go see my primary physician probably has a different standard than psychology or not like you guys have a really rigid set time for appointments and I don't know that you back up the way that other kind of providers do. So it was interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Well, we get to say our time today is up. And we can address this.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your medical provider have to kind of sometimes go beyond their 20 minute a lot of time frame for sure.

Host: Michael:

So the big question that people wrestled with is how long do you wait ended up being kind of interesting because people from different countries weighed in and even different states. So I'm curious like what is acceptable from kind of your perspective and I'll share some of the other thoughts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I go by. The 15 minute rule, if I expect if I'm going to wait beyond 15 minutes that the nurse or who rooming assistant, or whomever comes in and says, hey, just so you know, your providers in the room next to you, they'll be in in just a little bit. And I've had that happen reasonably just a little check in to let you know where you're at. I would expect some form of communication. Minimum by 15 minutes past appointment time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I will say like there are some fascinating, there was a viral TikTok it. Though was that a year or two ago about an American? We'll, we'll we'll find. It and put a link in the show notes about a an American woman who had her first OBGYN exam in Germany, and I won't go into the details, but the differences between the two are substantial, and it went it got millions of views and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I just told a story without telling the story, which is like the like. The least interesting thing it. That a person can do in a podcast, but there's a story there that she tells wonderfully so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, interesting. So how about you, Dan? How long do you wait before you insist on some sort of?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

After about 10 minutes, I'm probably poking my head out and yeah, although my primary care doctor, strangely like you can't hear what's going on in the next room, but you. Can often hear. And his voice is fairly distinctive. Yeah, exactly. And since his voice is fairly distinctive, I can hear him in the next room. So I'm like.

Host: Michael:

Scarlett brown.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, we'll be in here in a few. And he's one of the things I shop for when I've seen doctors. Is that punctuality? My favorite doctor in the world is my dermatologist. Yeah. Gayle who I refer to you and your family to, I think, 15, like two or three of my family members. Two or three of your family members, just like this is like what doctor like she shows up. And if your appointment is 3/30, the nurse is bringing you back to the little room.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like 325 and she's like walking through the door at like, 3:30 or 331 occasionally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh, within about 90 seconds of that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And then.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She better be dressed fast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then she. Yeah. And then she somehow bends time because she'll spend what seems like 1/2 an hour with you, and then she leaves and it's been 12 minutes. Right. And you feel completely hurt. And that to me is a really great doctor. She also does this thing that a lot of other, a lot of really good doctors do. And she's kind of telling you what's happening.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, she's amazing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What they call it narrating the visit she's telling you as she's doing the exam. And as she's discussing things, exactly what's going on. And then there's that like like anything else, and what I love that doctors is they get anything else and then they, like actually pause or what else can I help you with, not even anything else? Because then it's a yes or no. No answer. What else can I help you with? And then there's a pause that tells you you're free to say more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Love that, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Now and she is. She's really skilled at that. And I will say, you know, back to the question of how long do you wait? Some of this is also set expectation by your doctor's office that they will often have a sign at the check-in desk. If it's been more than. And 10 minutes or 15 minutes past your appointment time, please see us. They're encouraging folks to come back up to the desk to check in because something happens. So if someone gets pulled away to the hospital, whatever it is and that front desk staff is going to have that information without necessarily broadcasting it to the whole waiting room, but might be able to update you on your appointments. One of the things I talked to both my kids about but also the clients that I see is advocate for yourself in these situations. A wide range of needs that you may have. And actually, so when you started this Michael, in terms of opening the door, I thought it actually meant more from a trauma informed perspective that, you know, sometimes people who have trauma really need to leave the door open a crack, either before the visit while they're waiting alone in the room or during the visit, especially with the provider, they don't know. And that ideally is maybe when you're.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the state of clothing. But some folks really can't tolerate that, and medical staff don't necessarily know that about you. But if you advocate for yourself and let your need be known, they will often accept. Accommodate that and so this is where I thought the story was going in a little different direction.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I do like the sidebar comments like what is? So what does the Internet think is a reasonable amount of time? Or does it vary? Is are are galvanized in a 10 to 15 I 10 minutes before I poked my head out. But like what's the? What's the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Well, I'll share first of all, I always take a book with time disappeared and I always when I schedule an appointment and I take time off work to do that, I always double it. So whatever it's supposed to be, I just make myself out office for two.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, of course you do.

Host: Michael:

Hours or whatever. Kind of thing, just to be careful, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like a home improvement project.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, but I will also say like I do sometimes get like I'll get there and I'll have like the nervous bladder and I'll be like I need to go and I can imagine being this person locked in that room, being like, what serious fuck? I need to get out of here. Otherwise, you pee in the sink or something, I suppose, but anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you for that. For that image, Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What an image. Wow.

Host: Michael:

But OK, so the division really was by country. So in the United States, most of the people said like after 10 minutes, I need to know what the Hell's going on. Those people need to be telling me, like, we're sorry, the doctor's running late or some kind of realistic expectation, like you guys said a couple of people said 15. But then the really interesting one was the. A contingent from Canada that said we have a severe doctor shortage and anytime we go to a doctor's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Office. You are delighted if you're seeing in less than 45 minutes, so people talk about going to and this came up multiple times or otherwise it would have been like that's a one off. But they said like 45 minutes is a minimum. I've sat in the office for two hours before being seen and but by country you would have a different set of expectations because you know. Kind of what the norm is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and we have a Canadian colleague who sort of sort of said something similar, which is, you know, Canada's medical system is fantastic for some things and it has severe limitations. And this sounds like one.

Host: Michael:

Of them, and by all this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think there's a shortage that's a shortage area. When I lived in FarmVille, VA, the gastroenterologist in town. You know, I mean you, you just you just it was 2 hours in the waiting room and every single time he was a great doctor. He was a terrific guy. I thought it was. I trusted him very well with my care. But the choices see that guy in that small town or drive an hour and a half up to the closest bigger city where you could see a doctor would see you in a more timely manner and.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, so and if there's shortages, that makes sense that you're living in a shortage area or a difficult area that really makes sense.

Host: Michael:

It made me think like I am not necessarily a fan of baseball, but I love statistics. I think it would be awesome if they're like baseball cards for all the providers. And it said like, you know, wait time or. You know, you know thoroughness or average duration of visits or like those kind of statistics would be super interesting. I kind of think of like when I'm driving around here, we have some billboards that say, like the ER, wait time is and it's live updated 35 minutes or whatever kind of thing. It would be kind of interesting to have something like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. But So what are the? Would. What are the Internet saying? We're both. We're both just. She's not the asshole, alright?

Host: Michael:

So yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. The Internet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, well, and hopefully this whole issue of trying to get out of the room more than the time. And we're focusing now on time. This is this is really you have a you have a problematic door. Fix the door people.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. The only everybody did say well, the only people who said everybody sucks here is you made these appointments too close together. There are they they address like you know the fire hazard of that door not opening is inexcusable. Yeah. The fact that you know all these things that like the only thing where you suck is you schedule these things too tight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I'll give them that.

Host: Michael:

You need to space it out, otherwise everybody was very much in agreement that they're not the asshole, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So I will tell a quick story.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hey.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Similar on myself, so when I was a day I was working in a clinic setting and they installed these emergency poles in the bathroom. They had had an incident where someone had fallen and needed medical assistance, but they were behind a locked door in the bathroom. I learned pretty quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That those are. Very sensitive and I didn't realize it, but I had trigger. One. So I come out of the bathroom one day and there are like four people standing there staring at me. It was the supervising nurse, pretty much a pharmacist and like 2 on the closest. It's like, do we go in? I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They didn't applaud.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think the crisis? I don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Why didn't we? Why didn't we? Why didn't they burst in? Why did they wait? It's an. Emergency, right. I mean, a little bit of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like what if I fell and have I had it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bursted in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I have really quite glad that they did not come in and I've learned to give that that that rope in the bathroom a wide berth.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They they should have. But they. But you know what? From a clinic, I will say though, from a medical clinic standpoint, correct action would not have been to debate just because you're an employee. The correct action would have been to bust down that door. And if your pants are down, your pants are down. But like you pulled that rope and you don't ever want to risk like, the wrist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Come in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If your embarrassment is unfortunate, yeah, the risk that you're actually hurting and the delay to get to you and help you is a much greater risk. And I think that this story should have ended with and there I was, pants down. When they when my nursing supervisor busted through and they and I was like, no, no, I'm good and they would and they closed the door and we ought to laugh about it. That's how this story.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It should now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Should have ended.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It it should have you. You're 100% right and you know and I know some people be like, Oh my gosh, I would have been so embarrassed. But the reality is in that moment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Would have been a state of address that I would have been in that they would not have been unfamiliar with, I mean, but. For maybe the. Pharmacist from a from a medical standpoint. Like. Well, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not from a your standpoint, like they're not you seeing you that way because that would be weird in the workplace that you personally, right? Like not you personally, but that would be wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, I'm. No. Well, not me. Not me, personally, but any given you know, person like, I just, I worry that people get so. Caught up in how embarrassed they would have felt to remember that we are humans and especially in the medical.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm. Yeah, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Setting seeing each. Either in or. Well, we see patients in that state and to to set your that that sense of I don't feel pride or humiliation aside and just be a human and realize that this is a human place that no one's looking to shame you or embarrass you for. That that kind of standard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The. Yeah. No, no, they they they sort of failed you there. All right, all right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They did. They did they. They should offer them anyway.

Host: Michael:

I have to, I have to say thank you for answering that question, which I've always had is a is a stupidly curious person. I always wonder things like how hard do you have to pull on. That string or how how do you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not very.

Host: Michael:

Is it to? Pull the fire alarm like you know. If you just tug on it a little bit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think that I don't know that one. I don't know.

Host: Michael:

Breaking the glass, like how hard. How hard do you have to hit that glass? Other questions to have that I've never acted on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm glad I don't know the answer of the fire, the fire one, but yeah, I really had to pull that fire. One, the one on the emergency button in the clinic, not so much.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So that you don't need it. All right, good to know.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both for for joining us. Even though this was perhaps a little bit more cut and dry than some of the other ones, you know some are, some are more straightforward than other ones.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And stick around for our bonus conversation, where you're going to ask. Well, we're going to find out if I'm the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh, I can't wait. All right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or something in the medical clinic, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yep, please follow and share our test views and in podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, as Dan said, stick around through the credits for our bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, here's the question I go into a medical clinic for my first time and they've got the cart that probably has medicine and syringes and all sorts of other things on it, and it has a little tiny padlock on it. And I'm a curious person, not as curious as our. Is, but I'm a curious person and I know that these things usually come with the default lock locking number, so I quickly spin it to 000 and I pop and the lock just pops right open and now I'm thinking do you do I open the card? Do I look in it? So I didn't. My doctor came in and he looked at me and I went I and I said to him and it and I thought was a polite way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think you should change the combination on this cuz 000 isn't going to fool many people and I handed in the. And he looked. Really. Annoyed with me and he set the lock aside and he said we'll make sure to do that and that like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Went down to the meds after you left.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. And like that. I'm. I'm Batman kind of a voice. And I. And I've been wondering ever since was I the asshole for giving him the lock. Like did I should I have handled that differently was I the I mean I think it's important information for them to have they're shouldn't they locked up for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A reason I totally agree it's hard, Dan, because you tested the lock. And then we did the information you did the right, you did the right thing with the information, but testing the lock. Probably in the long run of all of the people to test the lock. I mean, it was better you than.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Someone who would have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Taken something from that card. So was I the asshole for, like, going out of my. Way to hand the doctor the lock, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Again, this is we're. I'm colored. I'm absolute colored by the fact that this had a good outcome where it was it served to protect. Hopefully in the medical community and change that even to 001 would be better than 0.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it was the first combination I tried to like it was, it was less than it was like four or five seconds to pop that thing like dude.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nothing. It was a strong padlock. It was more the kind of lock where you put on to, like, keep honest people honest, not the lock. You're actually going to put on there because it wouldn't have been that hard to break with something heavy, but OK, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A little bit the asshole or.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm going to say they're the asshole. They should not have left the zeros. Not because someone could. Right. But that's irresponsible, especially if there is controlled substances in there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right. So I would love to hear. I would love to hear from our listeners whether or not I'm the asshole for that. I'm curious so. All. I'm out.

Host: Michael:

Right at the end of each of our podcasts, there's always a little poll that says, essentially, would we miss? Are we that full? So please. Yeah. Please take a second.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Host: Michael:

And answer that, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am awesome.

Host: Michael:

Thanks everyone for tuning in. Tuning in next week for another missile debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with me today and it looks like every day.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that is, that is, that is that is running a business. Together, it's like there's really no avoiding dealing with each other almost on the daily so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we never agreed from each other. Yeah. No, no, I think I think I even texted you yesterday.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But. Yeah. However, this podcast recording time is always a bit of a highlight because it gives us a chance to do the thing that I think that we both like best about working together as psychologists because we get to argue and discuss and debate stuff around mental health and psychological stuff. So I actually really look forward to this meeting. So Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and I think the piggyback on this before we throw to our host which is you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You got them with worse.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Know not only. You we enjoy this time together. You know, I've worked with you for 11 years. I think I've said this to your face. I'm going to say it now. How much I enjoyed these meetings because I think I know that over the years, they've made me a better psychologist in a way that I haven't experienced with other clinicians. So I really do appreciate how you push, how I can hear your brain. Work and. Really valuable. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Alright, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Gotcha. Moment. Wow. OK, we're done something else.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, yeah, really. That's yeah.

Host: Michael:

That's funny. That's funny. That you guys are celebrating your 11th year then because oddly enough, I just learned that the whole am I the asshole subreddit turned turns 11 in June, so they're also. Yeah, OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There we go. There we go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then Speaking of anniversaries this. It's probably going to air very close to the anniversary of us actually launching the business and we worked on it for a number of months up until, but we opened in June of 2023 and I suspect this is going to air around June of 2024. So there you go, we'll be celebrating a year anniversary with that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Round then.

Host: Michael:

As well, yeah. And for anybody who's new. And they don't know what this is or what am I. The asshole is clearly, they've had eleven years to figure it out, but missed the boat. Essentially, someone posts a scenario and asked the question who's the asshole here and that's what Doctor MacBride and Doctor Kessler will hopefully try to help us figure out. And also if you're new, stick around through the end of the credits because we'll have a bonus conversation of some variety, but neither Gayle nor Dan nor have read this topic ahead of time though. This is what I got for you today. Am I the asshole for not cooking dinner for my husband? While I was homesick? No, sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We're done, right? That was a really short 1, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we're done. No, we're done, right.

Host: Michael:

I expected a little bit more color commentary. On that one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh well, maybe you should tell us. More details OK.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Alright. So I 24 year old female called in to work sick today because I have a fever, aches and a sore throat. My husband, 26 male, went home to work. Or went to work and the only time he had to message me was to give me chores to do while he was at work. I cleaned the entire house, mopped, cleaned the bathroom, did our laundry, etcetera. When he got home, I was in our bedroom, putting away laundry. And the first thing he asked was what was for dinner. I told him I spent the entire day doing the list that he had sent me and I hadn't cooked yet. He got annoyed. And said that since I was just home all day, I shouldn't be able to do a simple tasks such as cooking. I said we can order takeout or do. Else, but he got upset and went to his mom's for dinner. I don't know what I did wrong. I didn't call him to work. To be a housewife. I stayed home. Because I was sick.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Am I the asshole here? This is going to be. This is really going to be short. Wow. OK. OK. DP, 24 years old.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no. Yeah, she's 24. He's 26. No, no, she's no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, so. She's not right. Right. No, no, no, you're homesick. You're homesick. She did a lot for being homesick. I don't. I would not have done that much, to be honest. If I was homesick, I was homesick. Hey, I'm going to attribute her willingness to knock off these chores that her husband is sending her to. Being young and relatively inexperienced and maybe not having great boundaries. Honestly, I want this lady to be saying no. I'm I'm ill today. Does my data rest and recover? I would like to have seen her say no to a lot more than just dinner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. And this, this one, this one is really problematic. And what I when I hear this, I actually worry about the relationship as a whole, this one, this one worries me because if you know and and maybe I should.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Be this judgmental of based on such little information. One of the things when working with people in our office, we don't want to just get a one liner like we get to do that here, you know, right. But this just sounds like if he my thought is if this dude is upset that she didn't make him dinner when she was homesick. And I know. Good enough to go to his moms house for dinner. In what other way is he acting towards his partner that is just not OK. I am so very not OK with this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I mean, it really has layers of not OK, it's. It's the annoyance about not having dinner, but then leaving and going to his mothers is a total mother. Just kind of off you layer to this too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, that's in it. It it, it's, it's we. We talked in our last one about shame and to some degree like what I hear him saying is you're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're such a shitty partner that I'm going to go to my mom and she'll cook dinner for me. Like I have a hard time. Like I do want to hear more because I don't want to judge his in their entire relationship based on this one incident. But I hear this and there's, like, red flags up popping everywhere. With this, with this one, she's feeling like she needs to do stuff around the house. He's feeling like he's entitled to have dinner because she stay at home, ignoring the fact she said I'm. Talking too much here, but I'm going to go. Even if she didn't stay home sick. Like let's say she took a mental health day from work and she decided to take a day for herself. I he still doesn't have the right to walk through. Or where's dinner? Like what the fuck like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Even if, I mean, I could see a scenario in which a partner in this, I'm going to massage the facts off Daniel Kessler here for a moment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, oh, oh. Referencing our life.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Look, I can. I can see a world in which maybe you know, you've got a partner. Who is he going to stay at home, partner. Right. That's what they do. They're going to be the homemaker and they have and they're healthy, right? This is not a person who is asking for a mental health day or a physical.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say any of those things, and they've done laundry and they've cleaned the house and they and they and they and they and the partner. Comes home and. Goes where's dinner like I still have a problem with the demandingness of the dinner. This is right. And it's not as if she did nothing. I mean, I would like to see partners. One who's maybe competitively employed and one who is the homemaker. Have some grace around the tasks because the partner home often can't do all of the things. I mean, keeping a house is actually quite a lot of work that that division wouldn't be 50, but you need to maybe check your annoyance at the thing that didn't get done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean, my wife and I have discussed this. We both have jobs and and we talk about like if one of us. Were a stay at home parent, the other one would reasonably have an expectation that most of the stuff around the house would get done by the stay at home parent. Yeah. And let's say that that were the case. And I love your example here where massaging the facts still you come home and it's like, yeah, I had too much to do to make dinner tonight. The answer to that is. All right, what do you want to do about it? She gives them an offer. They. I'll go get cake. Take out I can. You know? I mean, it's not like she was like you were on your own. You know? I mean, she was very like, yeah, but. But even if, even if she if if if they are agreement as a couple. And by the way the example I gave would be an agreement as a couple because it doesn't mean just cause a person to stay at home. Parent doesn't mean that they're obligated to do most of the work around now. So that's just a. Discussion my wife and I had that if one of us were a stay at home parent, we would both have a reasonable expectation that person had as part of their tasks. Our kids are in school and they're. Lots of time. Would be would be part of the task, but but even even if that were the case and the couple had agreed that that was the case, he's still being an ass. He's growing that she has a job and she's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. And and. Sick, right? I mean, there's just there's no excuse and some couples really prefer to parse through the chores around the house in a. Very black and. White. Black. Like kind of way so you know you might see one partner say, well, I will cook dinner if you will. The lawn and I will do laundry if you're responsible for the trash. But even that kind of black and white thinking can get couples in trouble because the moment I am not able to fulfill my XYZ duty well then fine. I'm just not going to do mine. And that's quid pro quo. And we know that. In couples, quid pro quo is very problematic and really is going to cause problems in the long run.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And. I don't think you meant to put it that way. I'm going to give you some, but I want to, but I think the way you described it, I'll do the dishes if you'll do the lawn. I'll do the laundry. If you'll do the thing I have trouble with that. I had trouble with that framing like I got a little bit like, ooh, that sounds very quid pro quo. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think that we, but I did mean to put it that way because some couples function that way and they don't. Understand how problematic that is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like it rather. Yeah, I see what you're saying. You're saying that's OK. You're saying it's no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I'm saying that's the problem. When you divide it so. Like I will do this if you. Do that then it becomes. And all the part. It's a recipe for resentment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think I think it's better like you can frame it very like you can have almost the same setup as framed differently like. These are the areas of my responsibility and these are the areas of your responsibility. And every couple has that whether they've discussed it out loud, like OK, your job is this and my job is this, you know, or whether they just like it just sort of happens. You know, like there are just tasks that naturally fall to one or naturally fall to the other. And even without discussing. It frequently couples. Have found themselves in agreement about tasks and that's fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I don't think. If ever, when you fall into a healthy pattern of back and forth where one of the couple typically handles a particular task, there's often I find even some more subtle conversations that come along with that right even later, like, oh, I notice that I make all of the medical appointments, and I really appreciate that you do all the IT stuff. Around the house that might be representative of my household. What we still discuss it like I know I usually make this appointment. I'm swamped today. Can you call and just get this? Get the dental appointment on the books for us. I'd really appreciate it. And there has to be that flexibility and discussion at times about our typical role.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I think when we as we wander into discussions around division of Labor in relationships and with apologies for being a bit heteronormative here, most of the I do work with same sex couples, but the majority of the coup. As I work with are, are heterosexual couples and I would say that that that the primary complaint I hear and when I say complaint, I'm not talking about like a valid reasonable complaint. The primary complaint I hear from the female partner in a male female relationship is like I end up doing all of the things and not just. All the things around the house, but the bigger complaint we're getting these days or I'm getting these days is around. Yeah, you're already smiling the mental.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, mental load.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mental load like, yeah, you're willing to do all these things, but I'm still the one who has to track when this is and track when. That is, and track when this is. It is possible that I may have even heard this within my own relationship. More than once? Not today, but you know, and I think that this is something that couples frequently get fall into the trap of of one person handling all the mental load. And when the other, when that person handles the mental load, the other one is like works for me and really has to make conscious. I've wandered into something, MacBride, haven't I?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Which triggered a memory of a moment that I might have had a mental load meltdown in a heteronormative relationship with male children in the household. If you'll indulge me a moment. I have this memory and I don't remember how many years ago it was, but my children often come to me and they want me to fix, decide, help with whatever it is and. You know there. Is just kind of a bit of a preference for Mom and Michael. You're starting to smile. You might. You might remember this. My very capable, very hands on partner was in the room with me and one of my children asked me for yet another thing that his father was completely capable of doing, but the child asked me. Don't make me laugh. MacBride and I just. It was one of those nights I had just had it, and I looked at the child and my response was, and I'm not entirely proud of this, but just because I have a vagina does not make me uniquely qualified to answer all of your questions. I am taking a break now. Ask your father. And I went upstairs. I found myself at this absolutely done point and I think it is because in these heteronormative couples.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mom is often the favorite parent because she does so much of that decision making and love carrying it. It is quite exhausting and that for me is my moment of ohh. It wasn't a physical ask, it wasn't a task thing. It was just, you know, can I have? Can I eat this thing?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't know what it was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and I. I'd say that the bulk of my practice right now, aside from sly. Is couples and men who are in relationships with women, and this is the issue that comes up over and over and over again with these with men I'm working with is around like they're coming in because they've recognized that there's a problem and now they're trying to figure out how do I have a relationship where my where my wife or a girlfriend is happy with me. And the first thing that they do typically is they say, OK, honey, I want to be an ex. Participant in our relationship. What do you want me to do in order to do that and and it's a step. It's absolutely a step. And I see Gayle. You're shaking your head already because it's doing the things, but it's not carrying the mental load. And I will admit to guilt on that myself. But like, OK, honey, what do you need done? And it's like, well, what I need you to do is to figure out what the fuck. Just be done. My wife actually wouldn't say that, cause she doesn't curse much, but but like, I need you to figure out what to do on your own without having to come to me to do it. And then do it so that I'm not done. So that one you're carrying your load as a partner and two, you're carrying the mental. Load.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's in fact the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's a work in progress.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That one of the things I heard this week in my office was someone who had come in and was talking about her partner and she had not only asked for time together, he had planned it and. She was like. And she absolutely going in love with this idea that he not only wanted to spend time, he planned the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Evening. She didn't have to do any of that. Now I think we're a little bit afield from our original posting because we don't even know if this couple has children, but I think what we have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, we're way at the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To I mean, I think to your point, you know this guy we would like him to see to see him carrying some mental load. We'd like him to be attentive to his partner and her day that she is taking off either for mental or physical health reasons and not add to that load.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, I mean clearly, clearly there's an asshole here in my head. We're going to move to. Judgment here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that I think that's reasonable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She's not. She's obviously not the asshole here. And and the husband. If this happened again, we don't. Nor the joys of working with couples. Sometimes you hear a story from 1:00 and you're like, Oh my gosh. And then hear the story there. Like, yeah, like that does. But assuming that assuming that this is an accurate representation of what happened, and it sounds like it is, I just want to throw that caveat in. I'm just. I really have trouble with, with, with the, with the male. I don't know the husband or boyfriend and his expectations. Those are just completely ridiculous and out of line and she is absolutely not the asshole. Here and I want to sit down with them as a couple and talk about like. I want to I want to I want to like invite them in and like sit. Down and like do. Some couples work, maybe second cause. First I want to work with him, just like he needs to work on being a better partner. Yeah, to his. To his. To his wife or girlfriend. And he needs to change. Do some work on behavior change. And the couples work of reparative work comes after he figures his fuck out and figures how not to be an ass to his, to his partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Then. To get you some repair to work, but first I want. I want to sit down with him first and then refer them as a couple to someone else. Once he's done that repair to work. Or once you've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Done that work to make change if and if they're absolutely going to come in only as a couple. I want to spend some time with him exploring his, thinking around why that would be OK as an expectation, whether that. From family of origin expectations or something, right? Because if you don't know that person's perspective, you're not going to do a great job of changing it. And it's really hard sometimes for us, I think. Normally you know as people to sit down and be open to at least listening to a viewpoint that really opposes our own. And while we very strongly oppose his viewpoint, I don't think we're going to get very far with him unless we really explore where that viewpoint is coming from without validating it as accurate or pay, right. We do want to see. Change happening here, but I don't think we're going to do that without deeply more deeply understanding where he's coming from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I agreed. Agreed. What did the Internet say, Michael?

Host: Michael:

You'll you'll be delighted to know the Internet is definitely an agreement. With you, they clearly said that she's not the asshole and the only people who made a comment about her being an asshole were clearly, like kind of sideways comments about that. She was only an asshole to herself and I was like anyway, but yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, that's that's that's, that's that's. Fair though I don't want to call her an asshole to herself. But yeah, she's making some change. There's a good idea for her.

Host: Michael:

But they definitely raised lots of red flags there. Like you need couples therapy. You know you need to walk through some of these things. There were interesting conversations that were. And when you kind of dig into the comments, a little more people talking about like finding your way in as a young couple, they they're married at 2426. So they're assuming it's relatively new marriage, but it doesn't indicate that really in the post. And so just kind of figuring out. Some of those dynamics of like what the expectations are. The other question that kept coming up that we never got an answer to was well, what are his sick days like? Does he do chores around the house?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Should you make dinner? You know? Knowing men? Yeah. Knowing men. His sick days are like him laying on the couch, staring at.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Get the man called. I'm going to die.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Her. Yeah, yeah, we met. We met. We men folk definitely struggle more than women do. The only way I'm going to disagree with what the Internet.

Host: Michael:

So there was that one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because I don't know that I want to start with couples work. Because if we start with couples work, we risk it feeling like it's just ganging up. On him and what I've I've experienced with men who are really screwing up in their relationships is that is that one-on-one that time to like, really hammer on his issues on a one-on-one before bringing together as a couple breaks down some of the defensiveness that can happen if the focus is entirely on him and couples work when he hasn't yet gotten the realization of what an ass he is. There's one next one to Dickie is how he's acting like an ass, cause we don't want to label him. We want to label his. Year I want to start with individual still.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. And I mean, I would agree typically, Dan, unfortunately these guys are often really defensive when you only are in couple or only in individual work, they will often gloss over their behavior because they don't see it as problematic. So they don't rise to the level of that conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, you know, I think it's sometimes helpful to have a little bit of couples work going on while he's doing individuals so that we can pilot some of these problems that his partner is is actually having to accelerate some of that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Internal work it. Can be. It can be helpful, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. We do risk this being a little lopsided, which is where. Work really gets kind of a bad rap, right? Where therapists come in and they really side with one partner. It's two on one and it doesn't feel good to anyone as opposed to with this idea of making change and the change, I would like to see her making couples work is to to be able to set some boundaries with him kindly and firmly. And so we could balance that work out a little bit. This is the work that you need to do and here is the work that that she needs to do. And it's maybe not as strong for her, but. Is important and so then as a couple, they're both making change. They both have expectation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm working here and talking about that on the assumption because most of the clients I'm seeing in my private in our practice are men who have coming in saying I need to make change. So if.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM. Yes. And I think that's a great person to see this saying. I'm going to assume he doesn't think he needs to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, if it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Make changes he.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And in that case, yeah. In that case, what I what I what I see is likely happening like I've seen a number of is like you see them together as a couple for two or three.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's a bit entitled here. Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then you're like, dude, you need to work on your own fuck and then come back and you end up referring them out for the for the individual work and then seeing them back again in three or four months. And that's the. That's how I see this with potentially progressing unless he was already recognizing, which he clearly isn't in this in this particular very short snippet of their lives that we see. He's not there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He feels a little blind.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To that. Oh yeah.

Host: Michael:

Totally. The other thing I was glad to see the Internet address was the importance of self-care. And you know, like if you need that sick time, whether it's mental or physical or whatever, like, you need to take that time for that and not and all of it, that's something I struggle with like if I am off for whatever reason, I have a really hard time ignoring things that need to be done around the house. That's just my own, my own thing. That that self-care part is really important to to heal.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So yeah, and having. I'm sorry, I'm just. I'm very Minnesota about this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We cheat, no. Oh no, I forgot already.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think having others validate not that you need it, but also to not validate, reinforce the importance of self-care is it's really helpful and healthy. It allows that space for that health care to really take place. I can't remember if I told the story of self-care when I was on maternity leave. Here on the podcast or not? OK, so just just really quick. This reminder of self-care. I was on maternity leave with our first child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That I recall.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And my your mother-in-law called me, and I don't actually know if she remembers this conversation, nor does she realize that 15 years later, I remember the conversation. So I had she asked me, how was I doing? And I kind of lamented, you know, I didn't get laundry done. I didn't clean up the house. I didn't get dinner, made. This whole thing is reminding me of this conversation. Help with her and she. To me, not my quote, but close. Did you feed my grandson today? Did you put him down for nap? Did you hug him and hold him? And you know, of course. Yes. All of those things. And she said that's what your time at home is meant to be doing is you're meant to be taking care of my grandson. And I was like, wow, that was really appreciated. Was such a wonderful reminder.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Perfect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

None of those other wifely duties, and I say that with a little bit of a cringe. But I know, I know. But, you know, you know what? I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mean like, OK, partner duties.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let's say none of those stay at home parent duties. How about that? Better so we're not genderized it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. Thank you. None of those kids are home. Thank you. None of those stay at home. Parent duties need apply because. That wasn't the purpose of my leave from work. My purpose was to recover from the birth of the child and to begin that child's life in a really wonderful way. And that was my primary focus. And so, 15 years later, I appreciate that story. I think about it often and I love that she helped me gain that perspective.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Wonderful. Love it. Love it.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just for black or. White.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Uh. Truth is strange. Strange. You can't make this fuck up. Man, you why would you want to?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And join. Yeah. Join us again next week and while we wade through another intriguing discussion of who the asshole is, and of course, you know, I'm going to say Michael always says this, but like, follow share, like, do all the things that make people find us on the Internet. We've got, like, half a season right now out. So there's you can binge the ship. Out of this now if you want to.

Host: Michael:

All right, yeah, everything Dan said you do. Stick around through the credits for our bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

All right. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So Dan, you and I have been consulting and talking for over a decade now and one of the things that struck me early on in our relationship was how you defined whether or not a symptom needed treatment. And you talked about. The stress and impairment, do you remember the example that you often gave with distress and impairment? How? Break that down and help people understand.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. No, no, no, no recollection. But if you bump me, it'll come back.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I'm so disappointed it will. It will. And I felt like it was sort of apropos of this podcast. You talked about distress and impairment, having a fear of cats versus being an asshole. Fear of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fear of tasks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cat now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fear of cat. Oh, oh, oh, yes, yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are you willing to share?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That with us. Sure. And I'm going to share it without mentioning the person's name. Although I think they have long past at this point. But we had a family friend and this family friend was one of my moms, dearest friends. She was absolutely bug shitty. Really terrified of cats and she would she would she would call ahead because this is before cell phones. And like, where's the cat? And. And my mother would dutifully. OK, we'll put her in the basement and she go, OK. And then she comes the door. She ring the doorbell and she go. Where's the cat? Sylvia, where's the cat? And my mother would beautifully say she's in the basement and she go. Can she get out? And my mother would lie to her and say no. She has no idea how. To get out this. Is a Siamese cat. They're brilliant. asshole cat out, but my mother would say because it didn't happen off. I would say no. You can't get on. She OK, fine. Thank you so much. And she'd come in the house and she'd spend the time at the house and we'd have a lovely visit. And then she'd leave and we'd let cat out. And the point of this is that while this was a fear, and this is. And and. She really was scared. It didn't actually like it. I wouldn't necessarily treat her for her phobia. Because she went to other people's homes, she lived a normal life, with the exception of asking 2 questions at the door and one question by the phone beforehand. And I don't. And you know, if if it changed her life, if she couldn't go to the store, if she couldn't visit with friends for fear of running into a cat, if she couldn't watch, watch a show, or for fear of running into cat somewhere, we would want to treat this, but. Given that the impairment was only three questions that took less than 30 seconds total, I wouldn't have necessarily treated her for her phobia as severe as her phobia was because it didn't impact her life. It didn't cause a functional impairment. Now, if she wanted one day on a cat, we would. But as it was, I wouldn't treat her. So there’s, there's the difference in impairment or the disorder that is absolutely Shobha. And whether it was impairing enough to necessarily demand treatment. That's the story. You're. Talking about there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, but you've left off the second-half.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh fuck, I left something out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Distress has it has to meet both distress and impairment. And so you would.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, yeah, I mean. Yeah, right. She but her level of distress.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You felt that talk about? The flip side of having a characteristic of perhaps I'm an asshole, but it doesn't. Bother me, it's cause of no distress. It might impair my functioning, but it doesn't distress me that I'm an asshole. So you know, and that that really is the insight piece that we were talking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Oh, I figured. Oh. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A little bit about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Today, and the episode is, you know, I behave in this way. It doesn't bother me. So therefore, I'm not going to present for treatment. I'm not. I'm not really in a place where I am considering. Change and so that both have to be present in order to provide treatment, and then again in today's episode we would see maybe doing a couple of visits. Couples work to help the individual see that this is actually a problem and create a little bit of that. The stress so that they could see the impairment and be like develop. The willingness to work on the impairment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And here we start wandering into this idea of egosyntonic versus egodystonic egosyntonic behaviors being things that are. I'm OK with about myself and ego dystonic things that I'm not OK with myself, and that is an impairment for a lot of people to treatment. Is that as you mentioned, like this particular family friend of. And wasn't she wasn't troubled by her fear of cats, so she wouldn't choose to seek treatment. Even if I thought it was important to and. And when we talk about couples. And you referenced this earlier, Gayle, with, with and. And we're going to pick on men here a little bit more often. The case when men are acting like the Opie's husband was acting like. He has to make the decision that it's a problem in order to seek help and if his behavior is egosyntonic, he doesn't necessarily want to change. And frequently in these couples where she's doing a lot and he's not doing much change means it gets easier for her and harder. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, I like that you say that again, please.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, sure. Change means it's easier for her, but harder for him. And sometimes than couples are having problems like this. Couple presumably is having like she is overjoyed to be coming in and getting help, and he's not because life doesn't get easier for him if he gets help and becomes a better partner. It actually gets a little harder for him, his relationship. It gets better, but his life gets a little there's more work in his life for her. The relationship gets better and there's less work in her. So in this case, like he may be motivated by the improved relationship, but he doesn't. But he has a disincentive to getting help and that he has to do more stuff. She's purely motivated because she gets a better relationship and does less stuff, and that's where some pushback often comes with the with the partner that needs to change, which I said this earlier.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's brilliant as fuck. But good thing most of our listeners actually listen to the whole episode, so they'll. Have caught this.

Host: Michael:

There you go. All right. Yeah. Well, thanks era for tuning in. And check us out next week with another conversation. Bye.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Why does Dr. Gayle MacBride reference Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart in this episode? Stick around through the credits to find out.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and as always I am joined by my business partner and friend Daniel Kessler. Welcome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I am. I'm so glad to be here this morning. Doctor MacBride. I'm looking forward to whatever exciting conundrum Michael brings us this week.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Welcome both of you. This one hits home in a different way. It'll be interesting again to kind of see what kind of stories come out of it, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Immediately my anxiety goes up a little bit. Like what? What? What am I? What am I going to have to confess to in terms of being like a real human outside of my, you know, sort of more blank therapist?

Host: Michael:

It's OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Please. But for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The interesting discussion too about like do we do? Should therapists provide that blank space? Should we provide some additional like information? How much of ourselves we bring to the counseling session? But that's for another.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Time. That's a whole another topic, but that's where my heart goes a little bit. When he when he teases us like this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

I can't help myself. So anyway for anyone. New to the podcast if you don't know what we're talking about, what we do is we I cruise the Internet and I find. Posting conversations where readers pose a scenario and they essentially ask everyone who's the asshole here. That's what doctor Dan and Doctor Gayle will hopefully figure out for us here. And if you renew, you should also stick around through the credits. We always have a bonus conversation of some kind. So, but neither nor Gayle or Dan have read this topic. So let's go. Today's prompt is: am I the asshole for embarrassing my brother-in-law by reprimanding my son for asshole for pissing all over?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The toilet. What? What? Wait, wait, what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think I lost the thread through there. Am I the asshole for reprimanding my brother-in-law for my?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Am I?

Host: Michael:

But for embarrassing the brother-in-law by reprimanding my son. Because it it it'll be. It'll be clear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, I already know. I totally know where this is going. I totally, yeah, all.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Right. Go ahead. OK, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I got it, I got it.

Host: Michael:

My family is at the house for a get together since we all went our separate ways for Thanksgiving my so I guess this is older but my sister's husband is a pig. He is overweight and perhaps cannot see his equipment in the toilet. So when he stands to urinate it goes every. Better not great, but it would be better if he at least cleaned up after himself. Instead, he leaves urine all over the seat, tank and floor at his house. My sister probably cleans up after him. I don't know and I don't want to know. I was having similar problems with my son until I had his father teach him how to stand to pee and to clean up afterwards. My son still sits most of the time. And if he does sprinkle, he cleans up. I went to use the washroom after my brother-in-law came out and it was disgusting. I've talked to him and my sister about it before and nothing has changed. Fine. New plan. I matched. I marched out of the bathroom and told my son in a loud voice they had to go clean his pee up since he sprayed everywhere and. We have guests out. Exactly like I expected. My son spoke up and said it wasn't him that had used the bathroom, but it was his uncle who just came come out. Everyone went quiet. My brother-in-law went red and my sister went into the bathroom to clean. I apologize to my son for the mistake afterwards, my sister said I was an asshole to embarrass her husband like that. I said this an adult cannot piss. Separately, to clean up after themselves, perhaps they should be embarrassed. Now we are fighting and she says I owe them an apology. Two questions. Do I owe an apology? And. Am I the asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You definitely owe an apology. You know, we talked in our last recording about this concept that, Dan, you talked about men's rear, right? It's the intention to cause harm before the action. And this writer, this poster, absolutely intended to cause some amount of harm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It was. It was premeditated, if you will. She crafted the situation that's problematic.

Host: Michael:

No, you’re.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely right about that, that, that, that well, let me say that you’re absolutely right about the. Intent and you know, we're in Minnesota and with apologies to any Minnesotans listening, this is the land of the passive aggressive. I'm not sure I'm not OK with. This what like?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No pay with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This. Well, it's it was wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am disappointed in you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It was wrong, but at the same time I mean it's an old ask man passing on the seat. I mean, for those people who in in our audience who are who are penis owners, like it's one of the first lessons you learn after you learn how to go to the bathroom is how to like. Clean up after yourself for. Out loud, I mean, yes, she was wrong, OK?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She was absolutely wrong. You. I don't care if you land live in the land of passive aggressive. Or not you. Person up with whatever genitalia you have, whether it be overlap or testicle or whatever, and you have a quiet but discrete conversation. Hey, brother-in-law, I'm not sure if you realized, but you might want to go back. Into the. He realized, of course, but you at least make more direct conversation. You can assume positive intent. You could assume that this guy didn't realize and go in and clean it, but you don't sacrifice your son.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How old is this kid he's like?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Come on, talk about sacrificial lamb.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, the son that I'm more distressed about the sun thing than the than the than the brother-in-law thing. Like I'm going to I'm with you a little bit on the sun but she was like oh gosh, I'm really sorry honey. I didn't cause the son has been chastised. For passing on the. Seat before and it might have been him.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, because he had a streak of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But we, we but what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wait.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hear me out. Hear me out, MacBride. I'm massaging the facts to suit my case here. But one of the things we need to do as parents is from time to time, really. Be clear that we can admit when we're wrong and it's something that parents do really badly sometimes. So the mom comes out and says you need to go in there and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, I will.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Clean that up, hopefully not in an angry voice. Hopefully in a mom, kind of like a. Hey, can you go clean up after yourself? You know, that's how I'm that's how I'm picturing this. And he's like, I didn't do it. Mom. And the mom has a chance to say, oh, I am so sorry. Like, especially when it was really clear that the that the that the brother-in-law did it. And she has a chance to, to, to kind of like be wrong. Here and admit that. So I'm. I’m. I'm not. I'm not happy with her, but I'm not. I'm not so mad at her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I still, I hear you. I heard you out still that you were in the wrong. She knew she set this up. It wasn't like some ownership of. Oh, Gee, I'm sorry I made the mistake, sweetie. It's like Intended to make a mistake. Intended for you to react to me. This was crafted and calculated and not OK because she is trying to make behavior change through shame and shame. Never changes behavior. She's trying to shame the brother-in-law, and she's changing the behavior. And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am never OK because shame is not going to change behavior. Shame just sinks it down lower and then everybody feels really bad and he feels unwelcome. Like this is not a way to to. Do a family dynamic at all. Strongly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you're. You're moving me on this a little bit because this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Disagree with you? Oh good, I thought the same word might.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Same. Yeah, I am troubled by by that. But, so here's a question, as an aside here, I have always assumed. I don't think you and I have ever discussed this. Maybe we have. I have always assumed that every human emotion exists because of some evolutionary process that made. That decision valuable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We've not talked about. This but I 100% agree. Great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So if we have anger, there's a reason. Have anger. We have sadness and anxiety exists to protect us and keep us safe. Keep us from doing stupid shit that can make us sad. You know, all all the. So shame must have a function.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Knowing it. It does. It absolutely does. Would you like to hear? OK, then this is the standard. This is a standard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Function. What's this?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Conversation I have in my office. Humans. We are deeply social, right? One of the things we're going to do a little bit of a tangent here, but or no, it's going to be circumstantial. I'm coming back to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The point I pumped.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I get it, I get it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So the I'm really. I'm warning Michael more than anybody. OK. OK. So as a deeply social species, people often will say to me, oh, I know it's so stupid, but I care what someone else thinks. It's not stupid. We are deeply social species. We need to care what other people think. That's part of how we build those societies and those groups that we belong to. And we need to care. But if we didn't care, we would be breeding psychopaths and society would fall apart, so that's important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it's not ever to be trivialized. Shame I believe exists so that we have that internal regulator to say this is OK. This is not OK, right? Shame is the I don't belong here kind of experience. And either that informs us to leave the group because I don't belong or I have engaged in a behavior that is so wildly uncomfortable. I need to change my behavior.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go. But along with her invoking this, this, this, this this not just evolutionary.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I think that has to be internal. I don't think it can be externally applied. I think rather than shame. And here is its close cousin and more productive, which is guilt. I am bad versus I did something bad. She is trying to tell the brother-in-law. Hey look, you don't belong in this family. We're booting you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Build, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Out, which is a deep social threat for him, right? He's not going to. Show up family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Functioning. He's not going to feel welcome. Hear me out. And so she eventually putting him on the ice flow saying bye bye. As opposed to invoking guilt. You're not bad. What you did was unacceptable. Changing it from an internal human like a label of him as a whole person. She's a slob, she said, as opposed to he has bad and unclean habits. There's a difference.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So let me get this. Let me. Let me. Yeah, let me let me get this straight. So what you're saying is if you just guilted him, that would be OK. So how to guilt him without shaming him? He didn't think that private conversation. I think that private conversation shames him too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Look, whatever his name is and. Put. Well, OK. Is Shane intended by the by the interpersonal, the person, the, the, the second person in the dyad? Or is shame internal internal? Is he bringing up his own shame and working on his own shame we don't have control over that. We have control over whether or not we are engaging in labeling and shaming outwardly, though.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're back to suck. It up. I'm not OK with that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. So I think a guilt ridden conversation is, and I'm just going to use my brother in law's name because it's easier. Sorry, Ryan. So. If my if I'm having a this is no bearing on his behavior whatsoever. I have it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This isn't your. This isn't. You're not. You're not the original poster here talking about your your.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am not the original poster, nor is my brother-in-law wildly obese and nor do I know that he has trouble hitting the toilet. So. But he's a conversation took me for a moment, I might say to Ryan. Hey, look man, there is kind of a mess in the bathroom and I'm sure you didn't mean to, but just kind of pee.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, I'm with you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All over the place. If I give you some rags, can you go back in and take care of that? And I'm addressing the behavior as opposed to, hey, man, you are a slob. Can't you get your fire hose under control? Man? This is gross. Like that's criticism, it's content. I'm assuming maybe both date issues. I don't know how old this guy is, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fire hose. You had no trouble. Never mind. I'll make your. Yeah. Allow me to make your argument for you to some degree, we could argue that the brother-in-law probably isn't there all that often, and that if you don't want to shame him because I don't think there's a way of doing this without shame. Yeah, I think even the private conversation is still shaming. It's not publicly shaming him, but I don't think he's going to feel guilty. I think he's going to feel shame. Whether it's whether it's in front of the whole group, which is intense shame or private shame between the two of them. It's I, I don't think you're going to get to guilt on this one. And I suppose the argument could be made that the best course of action is just to like, this is a. Just something about having my brother-in-law visit that I just will deal with. He clearly knows about it. You know the, the, the sister clearly knows about it because she just marches. In the bathroom and cleans up. After him, I mean I'm. I don't mean to say that I'm OK with her shaming him. I'm just not. I'm having trouble getting that angry at her, and I know I should. I know the right thing here is to get angry at her and say you're wrong. You're an asshole. How dare you do that? I'm just struggling to do this. When a grown ass man's asshole all over the seat like I have, I'm. I'm not saying it's justified, but I’m struggling with with being all that mad at her. It's sort of like the jury that says, yeah, they did it, but I'm going to vote not guilty anyway. You know, the jury, the. We're back to forensics here. The concept of the jury. Pardon where the jury says. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you broke the law, but I'm going to vote not guilty anyway because because I'm. I'm kind of OK with you breaking the law in this case, you know, that was my first forensic case. Actually, my very first forensic case was was, was that sort of a thing where the where? The, the. Go go too far down the rabbit hole. But that that the jury kind of every. Except it wasn't a jury part. And the prosecutor said, yeah, OK. Like I kind of deserved it. So we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll cut the we'll we'll cut the defendants some slack and you know and this is the sort of thing I'm thinking like I'm willing to cut the I'm she's guilty she's. Wrong, but I'm not willing to. Call her an asshole like. I'm giving her a bit of a jury pardon here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow. Well, then she is best in front of you than me. I think I would feel more flexible about this. Except she brought her kid into this. You know, I'm really just am not OK with a mother putting her child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I get that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In between? That's icky to me and I don't like it. I OK?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I'm going to. I will. I will withhold my judgment. But my biggest problem is not only that she used public chain, but she used her. Kid to do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm more upset about that. I found a way to mitigate it in my head to make it OK, you know, massaging the facts to fit my own desire to to, to, to give her a jury. Pardon. But I'm not like, I'm not. I'm not completely OK with that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I found a but I found a back pattern in my head that made it more OK than than than it is for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But she hope whatever plan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Cool.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So, so there you go. There now I'm. I'm also like, what is up with this? With this, with her sister. I mean, she's married to this guy. He pissed all over the seat. She clearly cleans up after him all the time. She, like. All right. And it sounds like just kinda got up and OK. And she got up and like, like, cleaned up the shit. And it's like you're not mentioning it to your partner like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I think that OP is assuming that, like I don't think the sister got up to clean up at the ohh she did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. Michael. Yeah. Yeah, she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh no no. Ohh I missed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh, she hopped.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Up and went and cleaned up after him. This is a pattern for them, this is. Not I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Think I don't think we're we're jumping too far here. It's like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I totally missed that. Thank you for reminding me about that. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, and. And her sister clearly has accepted this part, and one could really make the argument that, hey, if he's there once in a while and this is part of what we have to deal with in order to have my sister and her husband, who I don't particularly like, I like my sister visit, I can deal with it like, that's. What I would have like, if she were sitting talking to me. Friend or or or or a client. I would say you know you're risking ruining the relationship. You're risking causing shame and harm all things like I would advise against this course of action, just to be really clear, I would not tell her. Oh yeah, that sounds like a great plan. I'd be like, no, don't do that. It's passive aggressive. It's hostile. It's shaming. It's wrong to do just like. Recognize that you have to deal with this and it's easier to clean up after him than to make a big deal about it. I'm just not willing to like, I'm. I'm willing to be a little bit forgiving of her transgression more than more so than my learning. Big.

Host: Michael:

So if we're, if we're going to pass a judgment, then Dan it. Yes, Dan, sounds like you're kind of wallowing between a soft everybody sucks here or you're not the asshole. But you know, an apology or where you at.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think everyone needs to change their behavior here. I think this grown ass man needs to clean up after himself and that you know it sympathetic to the reality that with morbid obesity it can be hard to. Aim everything where you need to go and make sure to do it and there are many people who are morbidly obese, who men who will sit down because of that exact problem because they want to do it. But even if you are morbidly obese and you've like, you can see a toilet and know that you've sprayed on it. So like, I'm annoyed with him for not doing this. Annoyed for the system to get mildly annoyed, the sister for not telling your husband like hey dude, clean it up to yourself. I shouldn't. She shouldn't have to clean up after him and I don't want to get mad at her for being in a place that there's a little bit of a victim meanness to it. Maybe or or but, but it's just like I want her to speak up and I want OP to be nicer and to just deal with it. That having been said. I'm not all that mad at at her and I'm just not willing to call her an asshole. She was wrong. She was wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm just not willing to call her an asshole. Alright, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, no, I dial all that up for me. I am. Annoyed as the day is long at this brother-in-law, look, if you are a guest somewhere and you know you have problems with your urination and aiming, sit down to pee. That does not going to emasculate you, I promise. The toilet is not going to snap your penis off like some men are so wrapped up in this idea of I can't tell the people. It's so emasculating. Like just sit and keep it. Or be willing to use clever and clean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm with you there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Up that for. Yourself, this guy. Absolutely sucks and is flirting with asshole because this is a. Pattern and he is engaging in this not only at the sister in Law's House, but especially at the sister in Law's House. But at home, like I have a problem with him not taking responsibility for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

His adult bodily fluids. What?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Move me on that one and I'll call him. An asshole. All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sweet. Now what do you deal with? His wife? His wife? I agree with you to some extent. Like this sucks. I think I don't want to victim blame here and at the same time, she's gotten herself into a really not OK. Pattern and I will guarantee you it does not stop at cleaning up his urine. No other problematic patterns here that she is taking responsibility for. Giving him a pass on. And she if she were in my office, we'd be having some real conversations about our responsibilities here. Now the OP, I have a real problem with how OP handled this. There are at least three or four different direct but kind ways, or kinder ways that she could have handled this without putting her son in the middle. I really. You think I'm going, asshole? You don't put your child. Yeah, you do not put your child in the middle of it. If you're going to handle it and you want you want to. You want to deflect a little bit? Fine. But you don't put the kid in the middle. I think you pull the guy aside differently, you might say. Or in a different way, you might say. Hey, I know that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This isn't how you deal with it at home, but here are the cleaning supplies. Or you know, or if the sister hops up to take care of it, you go ahead and say that's OK, you know, let me just give that to Ryan. He'll take care of it and we can be real direct. Kind, but you don't put your child in the middle and you don't shame. I just completely disagree and I agree with you, I think it's hard not to have shame as a part of the conversation, but I don't think you need to lead with it. And you certainly don't need to direct it. As parents, we're often trying to figure out ways to give corrective behavior to our children without shaming them. And it doesn't mean that shame doesn't come up for them, but we help them work on those on those feelings and process them and understand the difference between I am bad versus I did something that was naughty or bad, and I think she could have done that with the brother-in-law.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here. Associate. Yeah. No, again, you're not wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You are absolutely correct, you're just kinder when. Did that happen?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I'm. I'm. I'm more. No, no, I'm not kinder at all. I'm more vindictive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, in this situation getting way nicer than me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So this is vindictive. No, this is vindictiveness on my part. I'm feeling vindictive towards the brother-in-law for putting her in this situation. And I'm mad at him. And so I'm giving her the to the jury. Pardon. Not because I'm being better with her because again, I would if it were this person sitting with me, I would.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Say don't do that. You'll put. You'll put your son in the middle. Don't shame him in front of other people. That's really passive aggressive. Don't do that. Do not. And at the same time, like. There's that vindictive part of me that's like he deserved it, you know? And I know it's wrong. I know it's wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, I see your point. I don't agree with that. But yeah, I see.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know it's wrong to say that and that's why that's why I'm sort of issuing the jury pardon. Yeah, the case I referenced earlier. Literally the defense. And this is it, was a murder case. And the literally the defense was he needed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your point point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Dylan. And this is in the South and the prosecutor kind of went. Yeah, he needed Killin and. And, you know, the person who had committed the crime sort of got off with you know the lightest possible sentence you could ever imagine for having killed other human being.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's a great story made for another time, but I will say that that like in this case like he I kind of feel like he needed Shaman. And it was wrong. Don't get me it was 100% wrong. We shouldn't do that. But I just. I just can't get as worked up about it as he as as you're getting and giving her. The jury pardon.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I actually see that. I think it just hits me morally and professionally wrong and. And so I just like that's the thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I'm not saying she wasn't an asshole. You're saying I'm not going to hold her?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And. Like I cannot ever be in a place where shame is OK and I understand he needed killing like I get. I get it. I just can't get behind it and I can't advise it, but I understand it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To be clear to be. Clear. We are not advocating murder, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not nor am I advocating missing all over someones feet and then change it, but I but I understand the philosophy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Will be advocating for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright, alright.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we were strictly disagree on this on this one to some degree. Michael, what did the index?

Kelley Buttrick:

I'll bet, yeah.

Host: Michael:

So the Internet was equally divisive. It was really interesting, like this was one that really came to my attention because of the sheer number of comments. I mean, initially I thought, no, I thought of Gayle being surrounded in a House of boys where we've had this conversation about clean up after yourself and whatever. So. So there's certainly was that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

High and totally having some flashbacks about that, yeah.

Host: Michael:

The Internet was, I mean, really, there were really interesting conversations. But I mean the three main. Kind of categories where you're not the asshole. He's a grown ass man. What you did was hilarious, and so they missed the whole shame and embarrassment thing. We'll give them a pass. The other one was you are the asshole. Humiliation. You clearly have a grudge against the brother-in-law. You dislike him, you don't. You know you. There's no sympathy for his. Physical condition. You don't really know. Maybe what went into why he's that way or any number of things you've judged him. You've used this as an opportunity to call him out, and then everybody sucks here. Except for the son she was. Apologies to everyone. The son is 4, by the way. I don't know if that. Got said in the original post.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, my heddy. Heddy was six, so four. Yeah, no.

Host: Michael:

But you need an apology for, you know, the brother-in-law needs to apologize for the mess. But the sister-in-law should have to apologize for perpetuating whatever. And then there were, like, these nuanced conversations about like, immediately we assume that the sister is perpetuating and covering up, but like. Some of the conversations talked about, like the kindness is we do for our spouses, for things that they can't do themselves and. And you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The ideas? He may not be able to comfortably hit the water in the bowl, but again, if you can't do that, you can sit down to pee. But even if for some reason sitting down to pee is problematic and without getting too graphic, sometimes if you have a shallow rounded bowl there. Can be unintended contact that is unpleasant from for for men but. Well, there's nothing that would prevent even even the largest I can think of person from going over and just wiping off the seat afterwards. So I still I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can actually imagine a scenario and it would have to be like a perfect storm in terms of the scenario for it to work out. But he is a very large man. The bathroom is narrow, hard to maybe turn because of his body happiness and maybe doesn't fit because it's. A low toilet. Knees like it had to be a storm of just problem.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no, I can see.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For this to be excusable, because then you have this large person who can't bend over, maybe to do the cleaning. Now that is a perfect storm. I think it's ohh. I don't think it's likely. Don't get me wrong, I do not think it's likely not likely, but it is the only scenario in which I could consider going.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm really struggling with a perfect storm It. Hard to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohk OK, but then he'd best be cleaning at home because you know that can't be his, you know, primary bathroom at home. So I'm not giving him a pass. I am just simply saying there is a world in which that is possibly and kindness that you do for your significant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Other because he literally. He can't. That would have to be the that perfect storm for him to literally not. I'm not that I'm not saying that's right. That's the perfect storm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I see your perfect form but OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I'm imagining that the bathroom in my in laws house. When you come in, it's actually really long and narrow. And the bigger person would have, I think, a little bit of trouble navigating it. But they would have to be a significantly larger person.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. So. There was also this Michael or were they was. This like triad of arguments and no real full consensus.

Host: Michael:

I mean, the overwhelming consensus was you're not the asshole. The argument in there were more about overall, you know, like that, that big idea that you shouldn't. You know that you weren't an asshole for calling out. This mess now. The way she went about it, people had problems with and, you know, Gayle, Immediately thought of. Atlas of the Heart and the emotions Brené Brown. Right. Did she talk about? I know there was definitely shame in there because she's like a shame specialist. But was there was there embarrassment as well? I was trying to figure out if there's a difference between embarrassment and shame.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And what that was?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes there is. A difference? Maybe we'll make that the bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a great bonus conversation. Stick around for the bonus conversation about Bernie.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank. You both very much appreciate it. And as Dan said, stick around for the bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

As promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright, I thought we'd have a quick conversation about Bernie Brown's outlook for the hearts. This is a gorgeous book, by the way. I love the color, the paper it's printed on is gorgeous and wonderful, and she talks about emotion families, and she has done some research to group them. And today we've been talking a lot about shame and. Shame and guilt and one of the commenters also hit on humiliation. And Bernie does such a great job of slicing through these. Excuse me while I find the page to help us understand that there are differences and using the correct word I think is often helpful. Now I might have to tap in a minute as I find.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, here's the thing. While you're looking for that, Michael, will you make sure to put the this this book and that and the page number and all that information in the show notes for our listeners.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Host: Michael:

I will, yeah, definitely. This would be an easy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright.

Host: Michael:

Link for that awesome so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Great. Thanks a lot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We're going to go to essentially what? Functionally, chapter 8 places we go when we fall short to page 132. I'm going to just kind of highlight here what she says about all four experiences. She talks about. Shame, I am bad. The focus is on the self and not the behavior. The result is feeling flawed or unworthy of love, belonging and connection. Shame is not a driver. Of positive change.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So she gives an example. You get your quiz back and the grade is an F your self talk is I'm so stupid. Guilt I did something bad. The focus is on the behavior. Guilt is a discomfort we feel when we evaluate what we've done or failed to do against our own. Values. It can drive positive change in behavior. You get the quiz back and your grade is and that your self talk is going to the party instead of studying for this quiz was so stupid versus I am stupid. Humiliation. I've been belittled and put down by someone. This left me feeling unworthy of connection and disgusted with myself. This was unfair. And I didn't deserve this. With shame, we believe we deserve our sense of unworthiness, unworthiness with humiliation. We feel that we don't deserve it. The students sitting next to you sees the F at the top of your quiz and tells the class. This video can't even pass a quiz in here. He's so he's as stupid as they come. Everyone laughs. You feel dumb and enraged. Finally, embarrassment. I did something that made me feel uncomfortable, but I know I'm not alone. Everyone does these kinds of things. Embarrassment is fleeting and sometimes funny. Your teacher is handing out quizzes, and you come back from the bathroom with toilet paper stuck to your shoe.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Read more, not not now, but like to our to our listeners gone through great read and really explore this. Yeah. Thanks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Read more.

Host: Michael:

And we did an activity where we spent a summer basically. I mean it was, it was school year. I don't know where we basically went through the Atlas of the heart and read a section of the and it was really interesting to think of the different nuances of feelings and emotions.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of matter.

Host: Michael:

In a way that, like a lot of times we we simplify and we kind of mash them together. So I love how Renee really splices them apart.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And helps us use accurate language. And so part of the reason is the psychologist. I wanted to do this for my kids is because it's like, how are you feeling when you get mad or bad? Like, those are not very helpful emotion words and really wanting to help expand their emotional literacy. And I thought this is a great way to do it. So we kind of sectioned through the book and we would share that. I would read through it and then and then everyone would talk a little bit about an experience where they had when they felt that emotion to help normalize that. Emotions have function, right? Yeah. We all experienced them and also to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Give them a bit more complex verbiage and I will tell you the hardest one for me to get right, even though I know the definition and the in jealousy, I still struggle. Yeah, I'm not going to tell you what the difference is. Check out the book. It's she parses it beautifully.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, cool.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for joining us TuneIn next week for another fascinating am I the asshole debate?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I am joined by our dynamic. Duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and I'm joined today by my business partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler. Welcome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

HI am the aforementioned Kessler and you know I look forward to these every week for us sitting down and picking apart a really difficult conundrum. So yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing Gayle's insights and probably this. This week, we disagreed. We'll see you this week. We'll see you this week. All right, Michael, you got some.

Host: Michael:

For us? Yeah. Welcome both of you. First of all, for the newbies out there, if you don't know it. Emma, the asshole is in short, someone posts a scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. And that's where we're hoping to determine if you're new. You should also know. Stick around through the bonus or through the credits for the bonus conversation at the end. Those are always entertaining. Sometimes it's about an object in their office. Sometimes it's just some other conversation we felt like having that you'd enjoy for today. Neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this prompt. They haven't read it or, you know, stumbled across it in their own browsing. Let's go. Today's prompt is am I an asshole for lying to my family for two years. Was that my house purchase deal fell through.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, all right group so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, that was easy. Intentionally misleading someone. That's problematic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I no here's the I love the we've not talked about this, but I just saw that initial, like judging and judging the book based on its cover.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You do that a lot, I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but there's. But there's more to come and we don't in our offices, we don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh wait more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do this. How do you say you guys don't do?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I mean.

Host: Michael:

It in just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, we do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we do. We do with it just. With entertainment value. But I honestly therapist. Sometimes I will let my natural reactions sort of take over, not in judgment or to shut someone down. But I am a therapist who doesn't just sit there as a blank kind of face. I was, you know, sort of brought up and taught to allow those emotions. Come forward and that's part of my connection with my client. So what we do is sort of exaggerated in depth for this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Those are the worst there I. Yeah, I mean, I mean and that's some of the training that that some therapists get and I thought my apologies, any therapists were listening to do this but I really don't believe in the old Tabula rasa, the blank slate therapist who doesn't provide anything to their to their client. I think for what I hear from people who have therapists like that as they feel like they're like they’re it's not a connection. For that, for that individual, and I really want, I really want folks to come in and yeah, my job is to be independent and not to pass judgment ever, but also to like be real and people want their therapist to be real and not like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How does that make you feel?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And so this person would say this to me, I would express my surprise quickly followed by I think I need to hear more, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. All right, Michael, please.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah, definitely more than just a backward for sure. So OK, so here's the rest of it. It says a few years ago, my husband I told our relatives that we wanted to buy a country house by the lake and our country. Almost everyone lives in apartments, so our families were very happy. My mother immediately decided that she wanted to arrange a vegetable garden in the yard of this house. My husband's sister said it would be a great place where she could take her children for the summer. My sister started fantasizing about family picnics. My husband's brother joked that it would be a good place to get. Drunk on the weekends. Were both terrified. We didn't want. Any of this? We wanted to have a place where we could. Feel truly at home. We can rest where we can arrange everything to our case. Where there would be peace and quiet, and that family squabbles where we can raise our future children. In the end, we decided to tell them that the deal had fallen through and there would be no how.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is not what I expected. Wow in color. I know you got.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh I thought it was the other way around. I also I also give, let me ask you for the whole gender stereotyping purposes. When he said when this person, when OP, by the way, using the Internet phrase OP for original poster, when the when the OP when Michael read the OP statement Immediately saw a guy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You did. Too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I got myself wrestling with it until I got more information and I supposed to be fair, we don't know the gender of the OP because it could be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we both made the assumption that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Two men who are married.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We do. Ohh, that's true. You're right. I'm use. Ohh now. I feel really bad. I just automatically assume when the person said my husband that the gender is female and that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Way out of line for. Me so too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I'm going to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. First, I made the negative about men and then I made the heteronormative assumption. Yeah, I gotta do better. See, we make mistakes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You too. We do it too. We do. We make mistakes. Yeah. And this consultation that we do on the routine is really to hold each other accountable for those mistakes. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fake make it fake.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah. Alright. Please. Yeah, it's OK. There's not a lot more, but I'll. I'll finish up here after all. Whether we bought it or not is not their business.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, please, how fun.

Host: Michael:

Were the only ones buying the home. They were not contributing and so it has nothing to do with them. We didn't have to tell them. We only told the truth to our best friends, whom were sure would not spoil anything. The house is really beautiful and my friends and I often go there on the weekends. Well, two years have passed and my sister found out about the house on accident because one of my friends. Posted a photo from there. Now our families are furious and call us greedy. Many of the relatives don't want to talk to us until we give them the address. My mom even asked for spare keys. This is exactly the hype that we had tried so hard to avoid. I don't think we're asshole*, but my husband is starting to hesitate about what we should have done. So outside advice would be welcome. Are we asshole* here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow. OK. I damn. You look like you're looking something up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, I'm like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, OK. So, you know, we've already made a couple of errors here, so I want to step really carefully because. This original poster references in my country, so we are not likely dealing with someone who is living in the United States. We're dealing with a culture outside of the culture that you and I were raised in, so we're likely to make some mistakes here and I don't know that we are going to be fully able to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe give as great an insight because we will be culturally balanced here. That said, I think we can have a an interesting discussion about an. Intentionally withholding information from family and what that does to relationships, regardless of your country of origin.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I think it it really, I really appreciate appreciate that, appreciate your underscoring those cultural differences because we don't know what the culture of their country is. And I just think about you know within American culture you visit family 3 days. Really is tops. Yeah, maybe four. And yet, you know, if you talk to folks from from India, they'll talk about like, if my family's coming to visit. But you know, they'll be disappointed with this. Yeah. They'll be disappointed at that visit is less than, you know, 2-3 four months because that's the cultural expectation. And so we're going to be operating from.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Our own cultural perspective, which may not match that having been said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. And I will say like part of my initial reaction mission told initial reaction, it was a reaction on the line is when Michael read the bit about my mother's expecting keys and I thought, wow, this is really kind of. A normative expectation within some Asian cultures because Mom. Just has kids. Just Scooby. And that's that's the way it is. Point blank. Simple in the sentence. So you know, I as an American, you know, white female in a heterosexual relationship has some cultural bounds here where that sounded not OK. My mother-in-law said to me that she expected keys to my home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Whatever. Whatever this person's culture is, I think we can't really try to speculate too much. Whatever it is, it was clear that she didn't want that. So she has the same expectations that we did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's true. OK, you know what? Thank.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I think it's maybe. Useful for us to operate from our from our own perspective as best.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You. That. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We can on it all right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I thank you. That's a good point, please.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I'm going to jump in here and say that like I have a problem with this situation and again this is the and you you've heard this so many times and if people are listening, I've heard me say this many times. So many ROM Coms could be resolved by a good. Conversation. 8 minutes. Into it. At what point does someone think if? They have any close relationship or even. The distant relationship with family, their family members are not going to figure. This. Out right. Like how are they not going to know at some point? This is like a wonderful setup for like, you know, some comedy film where, like, they try to hide things. And this person finds out and that person, there's just no way to keep this kind of a secret forever. Yeah. Unless you're really distant from your family. And if you're that distant from your family, you don't need to keep it. You say like, oh, we're not we're. Not inviting you? You know, so she has her relationship with her family or or he and and our our OP really expects. Are they going to be able to keep a secret something that's super hard to keep a secret unless.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Someone's not in your life, or if you don't share that information with anyone else.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it just it isn't going to be a secret deal. So First off that we can, yeah. Now it's clear that she was right that her family was not good about boundaries from the get go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because of work. Share it with friends and not family. And understanding why this couple doesn't want to share that that beautiful, idyllic place with their family because it does sound like they're. We can triumph all over it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, so, so I think it's very fair. It's an on on one hand her her, her desire to keep this a secret makes total sense.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But where is that boundary setting?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and that clearly is lacking in these relationships in general is the ability to set boundaries and sometimes we feel hemmed in to keeping a secret because someone's going to be mad at me. So I keep my secret and the reality is when they learned of the deception. They're angry at you, so that's a foregone conclusion. Now we just need to work with. How do you deal with those feelings of anger aimed towards you to handle that? Because maybe it means they don't. They don't come visit you because you've said something really hurtful. Like, I don't want you partying at my house on the weekend and I don't want you telling me how to use the land space. You know, whether for our garden. Or a lawn or leaving it over with concrete and maybe they're hurt by that. But maybe that's OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, what OP was trying to do was avoid ever having someone be angry. At me and there was no way there. There really was no way to avoid someone being angry other than not buying the house, because if she buys the house and sets the boundaries, people are going to be angry. And if she buys the house, then doesn't set the boundary and lies about it, she's going to be, they're going to be angry and they find out. And if she buys it and just lets them do whatever the hell they want, then she's going to be angry and resentful. So there's no, there's no situation where everyone is going to be happy no matter what she does. I think maybe, what do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, well, I'm going to add. If they don't buy the house, they'll feel resentful. So there's literally no place to win here. The only way through this is to begin understanding. What are your boundaries?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Establishing those and understanding that others may be hurt by that and I don't want. I want to be careful and walk. Walk a line here. But it's not your responsibility if they're hurt by the boundaries you set. Now, what is your responsibility is to set those boundaries with kindness and respect. You don't need to just tell someone to take a long walk off a short pier and expect them to be OK. With it, but you should be able to establish what's OK and what's not OK and. You have to be realistic. As we talked in in previous episode, realistic expectations around what you are willing to do and not. Willing to do, to, to. Set and keep those boundaries so it may be that we're going to buy this home and family's not going to be invited. For the weekend, or we'll invite you and it will be for one weekend a year that we will open our home and that's it and. Other than that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think that's. I think that's really important. Even with family, maybe especially with family, to be able to say I hear you want to use this, we're choosing to only allow it on this amount of time. Well, I'm your mother. I'm your sister. I should get well. I hear you. That's not what I'm willing to do. And they're going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To be and to be able to be. Except that they're going to be angry and it sucks to have people be angry at you. It sucks that. Actually, people you love, I don't want people to be mad at me and then we throw in a little bit of like, you know, good old fashioned emotional reasoning here. If you're if someone's mad at me, I must have done something wrong. I must be a bad person. And when we set boundaries, we know that there's a reasonable chance you mad at us. And then I might feel shitty for someone being mad at me and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So many missed again. Missed opportunities, but in this particular one there was not. I do not believe there was going to be a scenario in which there wasn't anger.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And I think if this couple original folks, the couple were in our offices, we would be doing a lot of work and talk around boundaries. You know what kind of boundaries you have, what what different dimensions of boundaries do you need.

Host: Michael:

I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

About. Going to happen. You just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To be considering. Clearly, these were not individuals brought up with with good a good sense of boundaries, and so I keep coming back to boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. But you know, we have, we have flexible boundaries, we have permeable, permeable boundaries and we have rigid boundaries around things like. Time and physical touch and emotion and property and money. And like all of these things and so boundaries becomes a really complex topic that we spend a lot of time talking with our clients about to make sure that they have very clear. I think I've said it on the podcast before, but Prentis Hemphill’s quote about boundaries. Is one of the most beautifully succinct quotes that I've ever heard about boundaries, which is: "Boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously."

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like that a lot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, you've said it before. I like it when I hear it. I never, never sticks in my head, but I really. But I really like that concept that boundaries can be loving. Boundaries can set us up for and while it sucks to have someone set a boundary on you, they can be loving. And really to under score that boundaries aren't about me deciding what your behavior. Is going to be. Right boundaries are around what? I'm willing to accept and it it's a fine line sometimes to say my boundary. Is it that you can't come to my house? My boundary is that I don't feel comfortable with you coming to my house.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like you're not telling someone that's a bad example. Maybe you probably have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I would say that's silly. That's a request. I mean, unfortunately the boundaries if you come to my house, I'm invited. I'm. I'm not going to let you in. Yeah, I'm. Yeah. You won't get admittance to my house. And that's a really hard line for people to to take.

Host: Michael:

For example.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But it's around the circle within your control, but that's all the boundaries are. Everything else is a request.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I understand her motivation here. I really do. I don't. It would just be easier if everyone thinks the thing fell through and we don't have to deal with the **** at all like. I get that. Ain't going to happen. And you see, we see this in couples too. Like I know my wife will be mad at me if she knows that I did this thing that isn't necessarily a big deal, but she'll be upset about it. So I won't tell her I'm at. I know that my sister went out about whatever, so I just won't tell them. And there are. Times when that maybe but. I think that then people get in, get themselves into this like life. Then I have to lie about that. Well, then I have to lie about this and then I have to lie about that. And then the partner finds out. It's like, well, what channel? What else have you been lying to me about? You've been lying to me about whether or not you do this and this and this. What? Maybe you're lying to me about something really important. And it's. Like so, figuring in that place of we get to be private about things, but like the lies.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And there's such a big. Relationship. Part of this couple's life that they're not sharing, able to share them with their family because of this established lie. They can't talk about their time at this particular house or experiences that they have to their end. Getting out but. Presumably kind of a large portion of their lives.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh man, think about. I mean, if if I had a, if I had a I don't have a house up north in Minnesota, we don't we everyone goes up north, you know, it's it's winter summer time. So it's still up north and I don't, I don't have a cabin N but like Imagine that if I had a cabin up north, I'd probably go up there a few weeks during the summer. I'd probably go up there weekends here and there and like I. Someone was really close.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To me, I might tell you, hey, Dan, how is the week in the late? I can't think of the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can't imagine keeping that from someone I'm close to just being nothing else on like that. It's wrong. Keep it just like it would take so much effort. Like think of how much hard work you have to put into keeping that from someone you're close to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Actually this is. For truth rather than lying but keeping track of that much stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, my memory sucks so bad. Like what I do want to be untruthful, that sort of thing I would be. I would totally like slip up to someone. Like, hey. Yeah. Oh, I just.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Got back to the cabin. Oh, ****. Right. Those those Libya mission don't work out. Actually, we just had a recent conversation with her oldest child. Who exactly? You know, maybe the most forthcoming way we happen to find out about it because these things happen and said and the way we handle, I thought we did really well is we just said to the child, you know, like look, we know this occurred. And there's no point in having a really big conversation about it other than to say This is why forthright forthrightness and truthfulness is really important. Because while you may have thought that this was going to go undetected, and it did for some time, it's now come to our attention they went OK, like, you know, it was one of those. Yeah. Busted right. We're not going to fight about this. Somebody has energy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For it and it it wasn't a big thing, like it wasn't the concerning thing. But you know, it was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. With you being sneaky. No, no, go.

Host: Michael:

So if you had to, sorry, go ahead. I was. I was just going to say like, what? Where? Where are you guys at then? Cause I hear a lot of not the asshole but then you know, regrettable decisions about lying and some of those things. You know if you had to if you had to sit on the you know with your gavel and make a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, please. Michael.

Host: Michael:

Ruling what would?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It be you know, I feel like. We don't have the right. I sometimes go for my asshole meter here. I don't think we have the right verbiage. You know, I. Don't think everyone. Sucks here, but I don't think there are no asshole* here. Like, I think there's there's something in between where I don't. I don't think this couple meant to hurt the family. In fact, I think they were really massively trying to avoid hurt. And in doing so, they created it because it was going to be inevitable, and it was. It was sort of sucky. It was a sucky decision that they made and I think the family. You know, at large also just doesn't have a good rubric for navigating boundaries and I don't think that they're asshole*. But it's kind of. Sucky. And I don't love it and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I want to say that no one's an out and out asshole here, but everyone's kind of mildly dickish. Like maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So is that is that could be our new our new thing is mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I'm going to say that that the family is more dickish here, like. That's just dumb. Like, don't, don't tell. Don't. Don't try to. Don't try to pull off a lie of this of this magnitude. Don't. That's just not OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You. You're saying the family is being mildly dickish or more mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, they're worse because when the family found out about this like you, I lied to you because I knew you would be really intrusive about it. They were like, how dare you be mad at me? How dare you do this to me? And I want the keys. And I wanna use the place this weekend. And so, like, even hearing that she lied.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In order to in order to, because she didn't think they'd have good boundaries, they got really mad and then had really bad boundaries.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm making the family like I'm judging the family more harshly. I'm judging both of them mildly harshly. They're both mildly dickish, but like the family is moderately dickish, and Opie is mildly dickish, but no one comes out clean and no one's terrible. That's my.

Host: Michael:

Thinking I like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm really absorbing. No one's terrible as in weighing against this, I didn't tell you this because you're going to react this way. Oh, look, you react that way. I don't know that. That was terrible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But oh, you're right. Yeah, they come dickish.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He's my only dickish family, is moderately dickish, but no one comes out. No one comes out clean on this one and this is a family. Again, this is a family that I think if you could, you could sit down with them and help them to develop a template for how to address boundaries and resolve disputes. Like there's a great. I keep going over this is a great opportunity for this family to learn a different way of interacting in a different way of resolving conflict so that they have that template in mind. Just this is not going to be the first time there's going to be a boundary issue or a or a challenge. And gosh, wouldn't it be great? If OP and her husband or Opie and his husband got to sit, got to once in a while, have family up to their place and enjoy it with them, but also have it be their place and have nobody you know. And wouldn't it be great for family to go to, you know, get to this? This is this. There's so many again. So many missed opportunities.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What of the Internet? Hey, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, well, it was. It was an interesting wash of comments. A lot of them did not pick up like you guys did on different country. Origin and so they were presupposing their own kind of beliefs upon them. And you know, so there was a lot of that. This is another one where the original poster did not respond, unfortunately. So we don't know the country. We don't know the gender of the person who posted. And some of those things are kind of left up in the air. And that always seems to cause speculation, but. In general, the comments kind of fell down too. Main paths one is you're not the asshole. It's your life. It's your house. You should be able to do whatever the **** you want. You know those kind of things. And. And then the other one is either everybody sucks here or more often, I actually saw people saying gently everybody sucks here kind of thing. My elderly dickish, essentially, to your comments.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

There were a couple of comments that were kind of worth responding to that I thought were kind of funny. Several of them picked up on your your what you guys did about with boundaries as well. And one person at least said I'm not a psychologist, but here are some resources for building boundaries and establishing boundaries with your family and. Posted links to like the APA and Psychology Today. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That gets that sounds like something for our show notes. Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I actually I'm going to use the opportunity here to also plug my favorite book on boundaries. I don't know if I've talked about this on the show before. It is part of the shitty your series by Faith Harper. I've talked your boundaries.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I knew this was an shitty year thing coming. I knew that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is 180 pages. It's not big. It's so digestible. She's so clear. It's about boundaries and consent. It's one of the most successful books I've read on the topic. So we'll put that a link to that in.

Host: Michael:

There as well, one of my favorite comments in here then also. Because no is a complete sentence, it requires no explanation which Dan you've said in the past as well. But then she they give an example. May I have the keys to your home? No, that's it. Feel free to use this and you don't. Need to give me any credit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh that's awesome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's fair. That's fair. And when we talk about setting boundaries, folks, one of the problems is. People tend to give a long explanation of why, and every time you give that long explanation and talk about it before you just give that person more opportunity. And I don't know that I would have just said no, but I probably, I mean family member, I might like. No, we'd like we'd rather not give the keys to anyone else. Why not? Well, we just rather not give the keys to anyone else.

Host: Michael:

And I'll I'll say points for creativity to these other ones who were like, so you know, given that you've already burned bridges with your family, why not take it a step further? Here are two things that you can try. So one of them suggests.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Flame thrower to the relationship.

Host: Michael:

Well, sort of. So they suggest giving a made-up address that doesn't exist and a random key to the mother, and then see what happens.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Legal charges ensue as she tries to break into somebody else's home.

Host: Michael:

Well, they did specify it has to be an address that doesn't exist, so she will be wandering around trying to find this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ah.

Host: Michael:

For hours and then be angry at you and whatever. And then the other one, which amused me was rent an Airbnb for the week. Stay at the Airbnb. Invite everybody to the Airbnb. Never. Never explicitly say this is your country at home, but let them assume. In that and then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is just.

Host: Michael:

See what happens when they try to show up next week.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is someone who is who has watched too many screwball comedies. Let's do this. We'll rent an Airbnb and tell everyone. Will that be it? Won't that work like this is like this is like some sitcom little **** there that I know. No, no, no. Yeah, they did. I mean, the main things that people commented on is, as you did the poster being dishonest.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Not having the strong enough backbone or boundaries to set a firm boundary early on that no, that's not going to work for us. We're buying this home. This is what we're going to use it for. You're not going to have a garden. You're not going to do these things. So yeah, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What a what? A what? A missed again. So many of these. It's like what a? Missed opportunity, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I would like to say congratulations to this couple because clearly this is this is a dream and this is something that's very difficult to achieve and they've really created something special for themselves. Now, I don't think you're lying to your family. About it, but you know, it does sound like it's an important. Milestone for them.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both for joining me. And remember, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, more than ever. You can't make this stuff up. And why would you? Dan, I hope you join me next time as we continue to review what the Internet has to offer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, we'll and we'll and next week we will be back with yet another interesting. About these relationship questions that are just so fun to. Pick apart.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share their test views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about either random objects or random stories, or who knows what will come up with this time.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Ohh, and you can find them both at veritaspp.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick, a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie, and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. Diagnosis or treatment listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health. Issue please seek the assistance of a qualified mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Gayle, in your free time. Like we both enjoy reading. Yeah. What are you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Reading I am reading the Hannah Gadsby book, I think it's called Ten Steps to Nanette: A Memoir Situation. She is a really brilliant comedian who is also a person. On the spectrum and her insights into how she became who she is, how she wrote the show on the. Have been really a joy to read and painful at the same time she has she really has an ability to kind of share tragedy and hard things in a way that is really poignant and hits home. But kind of funny at the same time. She's really an interesting writer as well as if you haven't listened to her comedy, I highly suggest it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Look at the show notes.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, we’ll link to that because Nanette is not necessarily a name that maybe people would know how to spell or think about. But yeah, the book is really interesting. I read it as well and certainly enjoyed the comedy also.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But yeah, and for anyone who has trauma as a part of their past just kind of warning she tackled some really difficult topics in this. In this particular show.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thanks for tuning in. Definitely check in next week. As you know, we tackle some other topic and see what our psychologists have to say about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. Thank you.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with me, as always, my business partner, my colleague Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hey, thanks for the warm welcome Gayle. Looking forward to picking apart another one of these conundrums brought to us by our. Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It does just sort of feel like an average day for us. We pick lots of. Things apart together.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is, yeah, this is like regular but fun today because we're taking on something something unique and different, I suspect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Listen. Yeah. Well, and other people get to listen in.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome both of you. And you know, actually this one that I have in mind might hit close to home for it would be. Let's see what story comes up. I I'm thinking of something and it will be interesting to see if Gayle does as well, but for the newbies who have never listened before, if you don't know what we're talking about and you don't know, what am I? The asshole is. In short, we've taken something from the Internet where somebody has posed a question. They've given us a scenario, and they're just asking who's the asshole here. And that's we're going to help determine. And you should also know. Stick around through the end because we'll have a bonus conversation at the end after the credits, so hang in for that. Neither Dan nor Gayle have read or seen this prompt before, so let's go. Today's prompt is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a. That's a that's a pause, man. That's a. That's a scary pause.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, service though we are very comfortable with silence.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We are but this is unique, but violence doesn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Should let we. Should just have let that silence be listening audience might be a little more uncomfortable than we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Are our our host doesn't usually fall into silence. That's not his. His really his game.

Host: Michael:

We had too many windows open. Sorry. OK, here we go. Am I the asshole for insulting the food my wife made despite not knowing she made it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh, I know exactly what story you're thinking of MacBride!

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, this is a personal story.

Host: Michael:

Let me let let me. Read the detail.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On this conversation today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh OK. The bonus conversation will be all right. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Host: Michael:

All right, so and this is the poster, says my wife and I are 46 and 47. We've been married 19 years now and not once in our marriage. Has she ever cooked? Honestly, I find that hard to believe, but I'm reading what the poster says.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't, but OK.

Host: Michael:

I honestly never minded. She's told me that she's terrible in the kitchen and I like to cook anyway. Yesterday I had a long day at work and told my wife this. She told me she would order food so that I didn't have to cook. I come home and she sets the table and the food is neatly placed on two plates which should have been my first clue that it was home cooked and I began to dig in. The food was bland, borderline gross, and nothing and nothing like what I enjoyed before my head was already pounding. I was not in a mood for shitty food. I just looked up from the food and told her this asshole sucks. Please don't order from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This place again. Ohh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh. Ohh, it's like it's like it's like a train wreck in slow motion drive this. Oh gosh.

Host: Michael:

For sure, she got really quiet and then sad and asked everything was OK and she said yes. She seemed a little off for the whole dinner after dinner. I wouldn't stop bothering her. Wouldn't stop asking her what's wrong until she finally snapped and told me that she cooked the food that it wasn't ordered. She said she was sorry and wouldn't cook for me. Again, and I could see her tearing up, she went right to bed. I had to leave early the next day, so she was asleep when I left. I asked the buddy of mine for advice and he said I shouldn't have talked about anybody's food that way, hers or otherwise. Am I an asshole or is this an? Honest mistake, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I have a problem with the vitriolic response to the food that appeared on this persona's plate. I appreciate that he typically cooks but it is problematic whether she cooked the food or ordered the food. Dude food showed up in front of you after a long access day. Like it or don't you say thank you for making the food appear in front of me, whether it's delicious or not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to. I'm going to disagree. Like like? Sure. Thanks for the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, really? OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Food. But I I've I've. Eaten many meals with my wife and we've been in a restaurant, we've gone somewhere and. If, if, if she'd ordered it and put on a plate and I thought it was ordered and like that was like, I could see myself doing this truck, I could see her saying, wow, this this is planned and under seasoned. And I could, you know, she probably wouldn't. Say it. asshole sucks if she doesn't. Typically. Yeah, she doesn't typically use that vernacular, but I would say this asshole sucks and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We would, I you know, here's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Kitchen, though that's a food, is in front of us and we are in agreement that we're not enjoying this food as opposed to there. I think that you have to front load guns, you know, they are the be all end all around relationship research. You have to have appreciation, liking and respect for your partner. And I think. That got missed in this particular scenario and I would say this food is asshole bland socks to my to my spouse as well if we were in a situation where food was in front of us and it was no. Good, but if? He had ordered me the plate while I was gone, and then I came to the table. My first response best be thank you for ordering this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I'm I'm not disagree. In with you. There. OK, but once you get past, thanks so much for ordering the food and I don't know, maybe Michael can tell us whether he did he say thank you and then say the food sucks or did he just jump right to this food sucks.

Host: Michael:

I don't give any clarification in the comments unfortunately, and that's one of the, that's one of the things that most people commented on was like, did you apologize? Did you thank her? Well, was there follow up and we we don't really see any of those responses. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. That's unfortunate, because here's here's the thing. You know, both little known fact to our listeners, both Doctor MacBride and I are forensically trained. And I'm going to throw down the concept of Mens Rea here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh yeah, yeah. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, I knew I'd have you on that one. I knew I'd have you on that one. You. You have to give on this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm absolutely going to give on this one, but you have to explain what Mens Rea. Is. For those people who are forensically trained.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So in order to be convicted of many crimes now, some crimes can be done unintentionally. But many crimes require Mens Rea or. Guilty mind the intent to have committed a crime. This is one of those things where I think Mens Rea is a he did not have any intent to harm his wife in this situation and certainly Mens Rea is not necessarily for all crimes. If you're being reckless and you harm someone through your recklessness, that is but there's certain crimes where you have to have had an intent in order to. In order to be convicted of. That crime, that clearly. There's no. Intent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Manslaughter version of I didn't intend to, but it just happened. I'm sorry. There was an unfortunate carnage nonetheless.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure. So it's not so. So it's not assholes in the first degree like first degree murder would be. It might still be manslaughter like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, so that Apple is the first degree you're saying?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. I just, I just have, I don't. I just have trouble getting on this guys case too much for, for, for commenting about food that that, that, that probably did suck. And the reality is that you've never cooked before. I mean if you never. You know, painted a painting. If you've never done whatever, it's probably going to suck the first time. You know, I'm. I'm hoping he would be able to later say thank you so much for putting in that effort. That must have been. Really hard for you. I mean, imagine like the repair the Gottman work repair on the scale. What would you, I mean, if you're sitting with this couple? What are?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You doing with them and that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh. I mean. You know, we would sit down and I would probably take them through each talking a bit about their experience of it without commenting on it, letting the other really deeply have a chance to ask questions about that, and then state it back to the other as they heard it. And I always talk about getting that check like the other person has to say yes, you got.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That you under.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Exactly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it is a nonverbal sort of experience that you see when someone truly understands you. There is, I mean, and there be school, we call it a shift or a felt shift like you just see it where it like clicks into place. And if you've ever been in an argument with someone, you know, that feeling when they absolutely, deeply understand you, do you feel hurt?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Scene, like all of a sudden, your anger can just melt away like that, right? When you get that, then you shift to the other partner and talk about their experience with it, right? I mean, this whole thing becomes painfully slow through. If you're going to do it in the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure. Gotten style right and if I'm working with this couple on repair work, I'm going to be saying to him. But you need to tell her. Like what she's thinking and feeling as best you can go to. And she's going to correct you. Yeah. OK. I think you were really angry that I did it. No, I wasn't angry. I was hurt. OK. You were really hurt because you put effort in. Not only they put effort in, but I put all the effort in that I've ever put before. I really tried. Honey, you really tried. You put in all. Eventually he's going to get to. Yes. And she's going to stop. And yeah, you know that moment you're doing couples work and you get that person gets you. Yes. OK. Yeah. And you said now you shift. Yeah. Now. But now she feels her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She feels listen to, she feels understood. Hopefully she may still be hurt. Her hurts not going to go away, but he gets it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Right. I'm curious too. And then this would be a beautiful conversation to bring this up as why did the wife feel compelled to disguise or hide the fact that she made the food she allowed him essentially, to believe that she was ordering food out and not just by neglecting to bring it up when he came home?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But that was the premise that she set forward. It sounds like in the initial phone call. And so, you know, we are hopping up and down all over Mr. you know, asshole in the second degree here or the man.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And slaughter, asshole. And slide. It's not even second, it's not even second degree, not even second grade.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Manslaughter. If I agree, sorry. Manslaughter version of asshole here. I don't know what that would be. But why? Why is she allowing this deceit to move forward? You know, there is something to be said for an honest conversation. Hey, honey, I really. I don't know. Budgets are tight. Whatever ordering out. You can decide what I don't know. She made it. Decision after what was it? 19 years of marriage?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm you know what I'm? I'm going to assume positive intent here, and I'm going to again disagree with you. I think. No, no, no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What is this agreement? Which part you know?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think I imagine her going. I'm going to surprise my husband with something special I've never done before. I'm going to prepare a meal. It's going to be like, and he's going to. I'm going to fool him into thinking it's a restaurant, and then I'm going to give this big reveal and he's going to be so happy. Like I imagine this is a really positive thing that she's really. Really working this like I want to make him really happy by doing something I've never done just for him as a special moment, which I think is why she's so. Really hurt. I think she's. I don't think it's defeated. I think it's more like a surprise party defeat.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I cannot do that and I would absolutely doesn't matter. OK. So we'll take this as the likely reality, but I still would challenge her around her on realistic expectations here. You don't cook and somehow you think you're going to turn out a restaurant quality meal and pass it. Bob, Bob.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're back to Mens Rea. But we're back to men's Rea. Her sleep in that moment is right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure, sure. But her ability to come toward her husband has to in this argument, and to let go of some of her hurt, is to also say I have some unrealistic expectations of myself and my ability to perform.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, that's fair. That's fair that that. But that's like that's that's a step down the road. But I really think that her deep, powerful hurt comes from this. Like I'm going to do everything right. I'm. Going to make him so. So, so happy. I'm going to impress him so much. And she does all of this work and he shits all over it unintentionally. Not. Not without. Without that intent to harm her, he shifts all over it. And she's deeply, deeply powerful. Her not because she was trying to trick him in an unpleasant way, but she just she wanted to. She wanted had this, like, wonderful. The veil, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Oh, I totally get that. I absolutely get that. And I think it is an opportunity for us to have some conversations around expectations in your relationship and. And the connection to that deep hurt for sure. Yeah. So, and expectations trip us up and expectations that we don't express, you know, she didn't. And setting expectations up against something over which we have no control which is someone else's reaction to the thing we did.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And this this meanders into there's a podcast I frequently recommend to my couples. Chick. Ohh. When did marriage become so hard? You know the one you know the one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all. I love it. It's an episode in This American Life. It's full health, but it, oh, hidden brain.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not hidden brain.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're right, hidden brain. Sorry, but I had. I had someone in my office recently referenced that episode. They knew it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Too, which is so cool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So the theme that the thesis of that and go back and listen to it, we'll put a link somewhere. I always say these podcasts, what a link in the show notes. I have no idea if you have show notes, but I'm a show you do, we'll put a link in the show, put a link in the show notes. But what does the primary one of the primary theses of this podcast is that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We have show notes, our host taking care of that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Our expectations for our partners are to high. We expect we you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, that is I. I disagree. I'm going to stop you. That's not the thesis. They're different. Not too high.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Know we expect. For.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Continue. And then maybe our listeners can respond back and let us know your take away.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe, but that, that that was my take away and maybe different is a better way of putting it than too high because. That because I don't ever want to suggest to people that they need to lower their expectations. What I what I what I want people to see is to sort of for fuck’s sake, for apologies, for using corporate language to right size their expectations. You know, to have expectations that are in keeping what is what is what is typical. Our partners going to screw up our partners going to do things wrong our partners that. Sometimes at a positive intent. Sometimes out of not thinking because we get caught up in our own shit and they're so, I see so many problems in marriage with people who have these really unrealistic expectations for how that's going to go and how well they're going to click. And we live in a bit of a ROM com world where everything is like resolved by an hour and a half into the movie. And that shit ain't real.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And I think the expectations that, that this particular episode is really highlighting is that modern long term partnering relationships now are expected to be this wonderful, blissful relationship where your partner completes you in this, Jerry Maguire. Kind of way and I know I know and that we don't have needs that would exist outside that relationship. And it sets us up for this really wonderful kind of relationship that. May feel really. Great, but it's really difficult to achieve because it is such a high bar that expectations of marriage when, say, my parents got married in 1967 were very different and that expectation. Are. Was lower, easier to meet and couples didn't feel disappointed because their expectations weren't violated. And so in changing this bonds for the many years that we've been partnering in marrying, you know, even if you go back to the 1500s and some of you know what marriage was about, then it has changed and evolved overtime. And this is where we can be deeply.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hurt by the lack of or I should say, disappointed, deeply disappointed by the lack of ability to meet those expectations and so questioning them, being realistic in them and allowing for couples and partners to have good, deep conversations about where we get those needs met. And we are far afield from the question that I. Like that, but no. Code and listening to it is worthwhile.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It all connects and I think that that, you know, one of the things that you and I both when we work with couples are always talking to folks about is like recognizing that this thing that you're arguing about or disagreeing with is may not represent a right or wrong. It may represent a difference in perspective and that that so often like what I value.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

May be different than what my partner values and that doesn't mean that my partner is wrong or that I'm wrong. It means that you have a different perspective. And those are sometimes the toughest things to workout in the couples counseling. When? Like nobody's asshole wrong and they have a disagreement where like, you know, the classic example, you know, he wants kids and she doesn't want kids neither one of those positions is wrong or incorrect. It's not really a compromise on that for most people. And then how do you deal with those conflicts when people get caught up in the I'm right and you're wrong. Rather than just like we have a difference, let's talk about the difference. Without that moral judgment. So.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Hi. Speaking like I'm right and you're wrong. I'm going to reel you in and ask you where ultimately, do you stand on this? Like, if you have to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

My colleague here had something to say before. That.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just for short and I'll say it anyway. Just often I would leave it in later so I know he's trying to ruin his and get a definitive answer here, but I often tell couples in in very early in the process that here's the good news and the bad news is you're. That's right. Yeah. Right. And so this is great. And now we have to work from here and I've talked about the gunman planting example since I'm already speaking, I will go first today. I'm going to say that neither are the asshole. But I do think this idea of asshole manslaughter is on the table, that they, they have. Unrealistic expectations that they didn't check with each other. They maybe shut off without creating a space for appreciation. It's this idea of affinity and liking and respect like that should have been attended to 1st. It probably would have helped mitigate the hurt of the life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, I think this is like so many of these. We talk about what a wonderful opportunity for early on for her to look at him and say I cooked this and I'm feeling really hurt right now. And for him to say for him to in that moment go, oh shit. Oh, shit. Ohh, honey, I am so sorry. I really appreciate all the effort you put into it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry that I didn't. He's not going to be able to back.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry that I didn't like it. I so appreciate that you tried and for her to be like. Yeah. And like, what a great opportunity for them not to be angry at each other. I don't think either one of them was an asshole, but they both missed an opportunity for connection rather than an opportunity for being hurt and angry and upset and frustrated. And that's what I would want to do in working with them is like, work towards. Where they could have connected over this rather than where they would have been hurt or upset.

Host: Michael:

By it so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Would you call? Would you say everyone flocked here? More muscles here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no. I would say I'm actually like everyone, sadly missed an opportunity here. Nobody thought.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That do it and nobody's.

Kelley Buttrick:

They'll be one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nobody's shitty. Nobody's an asshole, but both of them. He missed the opportunity to be more appreciative. She missed the opportunity to share with him how she was feeling in the moment. He missed the opportunity to be incredibly appreciative that this person has never cooked before, went on a limb. For him, she missed the opportunity to realize that he had no intent to hurt her feelings. It just. I just can't call anyone an asshole here, but I really want to sit down with him and go. Let's, let's talk this through and see if we can't find a good. There's my best there. I don't. That's not my therapist voice. I'll. Be annoying.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, well, the Internet. This was actually like this comment section was wild. I mean, there were so many conversations, but when I kind of distilled them down, there seems to be. Kind of three. Pillars, I guess of the conversation. One is you're not the asshole you didn't know you're set up for. An expectation you went with that expectation without questioning it, but you need to apologize, right? And so there's that one. There's you are the asshole. You knew better, which is like a weird one, but like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm-hmm.

Host: Michael:

People like it really kind of gathered steam around this like it was presented on a plate. You didn't see any packaging like, you know, like, you are either inattentive or tone deaf, like you should have figured this out. I reject that. And then the other one is essentially no assholes here. Like, everybody was working.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now.

Host: Michael:

Under different assumptions, they tried a lot of people tried to question like why the why? The wife said she was ordering and then, you know, we never got any feedback from the original poster. So we don't know. And so then people start. Saying, well, maybe she tried to and she couldn't get something in time. Or maybe she thought like, well, you know, and there's all this. What if kind of things, but I think most people kind of fell down either. No assholes here or specifically you're not the asshole in this moment about criticizing the food based on the knowledge. You had so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm wondering it like I know that there have been a few times where I've done something like this not cooking as I cook. I'm like, I'm going to surprise my partner by doing something special. Like Gayle Michael. I suspect you've done something like that at some point. Like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We're going to save that conversation that's going to be our bonus conversation. We have a specific example.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want to do something, yeah. We have. Specific, but I mean this is the sort of thing couples do. I think every couple, everyone who's ever been coupled has some experience where they went. I'm going to like, clean the whole house or I'm going to wash the car. I'm going to do this. I'm going to clean out there. I'm going to do this thing that my partner really wants, and we want our partner to come home and go. Thanks. Wow. We want our part. And then if the partner comes in and it's like, hey, how you doing? And nothing. It's like it. Hurts. So I'm still going with lots of hurts all around here and no one meant to be an asshole. Like asshole again. I think asshole requires a bit of men's right. And I just think that this is just a sad situation. I'm I'm sticking with my position and disagreeing with the Internet. Did they? Explain you Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no. I'm sticking with my with my. No, I like your concept of Andrea. You know, there wasn't an intent to hurt. It was probably something that was said out of exhaustion, fully timed hurt for sure. And it. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. Nor was she attempting to, nor was she attempting to lie to him about it. She wasn't trying to pull. She wasn't trying to, like there was no nothing negative there in her. But I refuse to accept. I refuse to accept any theory.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. What was she was she was intending to create a surprise and not a secret. But a fight?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm. I'm I'm I'm I reject all negative interpretations of of of her behavior. What they're done by the Internet or my business partner. I simply reject all negative interpretations of her behavior. I think her behavior is purely purely supportive and helpful, except for afterwards she could have would have been a place to say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think she mentioned is it's a surprise.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, honey. Really tried. I really wouldn't make you happy. And to be like, you know, so, but I.

Host: Michael:

Let me add one other thing, the Internet said, and we'll wrap up cuz I know it's getting long, but they did suggest that they take a cooking class together as a way of healing. And then the other one that I thought was interesting was you should take a class and something that she knows better than you as well like to kind of do both of those things. So, and I'm sure you guys have kind of healing ideas as well for those things, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Down with those. But Gayle. Ohh wait with after the credits. That's right. Yeah. Alright.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So thanks, thanks both of you for another riveting debate. This one was amusing as well as illuminating. And of course, remember moralities often shades of Gray and not just black and white. It's hard to pinpoint. Someone is just being masshole in this situation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. Life is strange. You can't make this stuff up. And why would you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And join us again next week when we wave through another. Am I the asshole discussion.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share of our test views and the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, as we've continued to say, this episode especially stick around through the credits for bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, Gayle, you're you're itching to tell a tell a brief story that comes from the is this from the MacBride, marriage?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, OK. It is. It is from the MacBride marriage. So again, this is this is the personal story, the host and I've been married for 22 years this this summer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, personal insight.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Time early in the marriage, I was a graduate student and he was living about 45 minutes away, and I would beautifully go to. At the time we called it an externship. I mean, most people would sort of understand an internship, but anyway it was a think of it as a part time job, and I would have lunch with my supervising.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Psychologist and another psychologist there. And they had this kind of tradition where they would do some needlework over lunch and just it was a group of three women, myself and two senior. And the previous intern had started a or had been gifted a project, but she didn't get a chance. It didn't arrive in time, so they gifted it to me so I could be a part of their lunch circle. And it was this counted cross stitch of this would be like a mother daughter thing of puppies. And I thought this is kind of cute. I'll work on this and how whole maker of me and. So I stitched it and I and I made the pattern and I bought. I meant grad student, so I bought cheap bath frames. I pressed it and I put it in these frames and those. And I laid it on, and now that I think about this, this was after we were married. So you were living. We were living in the apartment together. Anyway, I brought them home, and I just laid them on the dining room table and my new husband came home that night. One looked at the objects on the table and looked at me and went. I thought we weren't going to get this kind of Knick knacky. shit. And I was devastated. I had spent so much time and care being Susie Homemaker and he didn't want my girl that crossed it and I was fed. I was open. And as you said earlier, so hurt. Now the repair for something like this was my darling husband. No. We've been married for 22 years.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This was your one. He made a spectacular repair where he had those shitty ass frames. He took the whole project to a store that does such kind of framing and had it professionally framed and has insane. In each of our homes that hang in a place where we can routinely see it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wonderful. That's wonderful. And that's and that's. Yeah, I mean that, that, that sort of repair is, is, is wonderful. We probably should talk more about repair some future episode or something, but all.

Host: Michael:

Right. Let me let me add something in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To defend yourself?

Host: Michael:

No, no, I'm not. I think you did a great job. That's very fair. The only thing I would add is it was at a time where we were. Still kind of getting wedding gifts as I recall. And so I think my first comment was where did this come from? As in like who gave it to us kind of thing. And then, yeah, the knick knacky shit comment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And then I got an opportunity to tell them I lovingly made it over lunchtime.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't try to make yourself. Don't try to make yourself look better.

Host: Michael:

And I felt about this big.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And he showed me that right away, which was also really helpful, didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And yeah, I mean, getting back to our couple that's that was their mistake is not immediately showing each other like I'm sure in this situation as you describe it Gayle, you let him know by your hurt right away. He let you know that he felt terrible right away and had this couple done what you did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And just in the time we have left out also point out that one of the things as therapists that we do is we watch couples talk about hard moments like this. And then one of the most salient variables that I notice is, can you talk about something difficult like this and can you? Jointly laugh about. It and if you. Completely laugh about it. You know that repairing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That has taken place. Those that I can.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We laugh about this. We routinely say things like, oh, there's that knickknacky shit, or I don't want that kind of knickknacky shit, right? It is part of our shared history and that's an important thing is to be able to navigate these things and hopefully use some humor later on, not at one another, but with one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. One of your things. Wonderful.

Host: Michael:

Another perfect. Yeah, well, thanks for tuning in. And check us out next week with a whole other topic that we'll tackle.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Host: Michael:

Have a good day.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and today with me is my business partner and friend, doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and nice. Thank you for the introduction, Dr. MacBride. Looking forward to picking apart. Another one of these really interesting conundrums. Michael, don't you have? Something for us?

Host: Michael:

I do well, first of all, welcome both of you and then for all the newbies out there, if you don't know by now, what am I? The asshole is, in short, someone post the scenario and ask readers who is the asshole here. And that's what we're going to help determine. If you're new, you should also know. Stick around through the credits because there's a bonus conversation at the end that's always illuminating in some way. Neither Dan nor GAIL have read or seen this before. So let's go. So this one unfortunately has been removed, but I managed to do a screen grab.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

oh

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Why? You are our IT guy as well?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you know a quick cautionary tale of why something once posted the Internet is there forever.

Host: Michael:

So true. So the headline for this one is, am I the asshole for telling my daughter that if she goes vegan, she will need to get a job to buy her own groceries? Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. Oh, wait, sorry. There's more to it, isn't there? I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Always says be patient Dan.

Host: Michael:

Alright, so that's the post, says my daughter, who is 15, almost 16, went vegetarian about a year ago. Overall, it went well and didn't add much to the grocery list. The family already didn't eat much meat. She has been talking about going vegan for a while. And last time I got groceries, she asked me to pick up some stuff. Overall, it almost doubled the price of our grocery bill also. I found most of the food to be bad. Vegan cheese has to be the grossest. Thing I've ever. Tried OK to be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fair. She's not wrong about that, that. 1.

Host: Michael:

She kept talking about it and I sat, sat her down. I told her she goes vegan and she will have to get her own job and pay for her groceries that we cannot afford to pay. Double the grocery bill and I am not going to replace things with alternatives that the family doesn't like. This resulted in an argument. And she is calling me a jerk. My ex-wife is on my asks about it and told her she can pay for extra grocery. If it's that big of an issue for her, she also thinks I'm being a jerk. So the question is, who is the asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here. Wow, this is. This is a really interesting one. You know, as parents, when we have minor children living at home, we are required to close and feed. And how's those children? So the real question is, are we required to feed them in the manner in which they are? Costume to be fed. Baby is there. Is there a line there?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And did this teenager cross it? Probably. I want to know how she's doubling the grocery bill. I didn't do this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So. So Full disclosure here, I eat mostly vegan. In in my personal life, just as an aside, like you can eat vegan, way cheaper than you can eat. Not vegan.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is this is my sense of things too, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, no, our, our, our grocery bill is a fraction of what it was when we ate meat and cheese. And other things like that. So it's, it's it's, it's not even that it's not that the daughter is necessarily vegan. I want to pull this away from that. It's that the daughter is asking for foods that are.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Take a watch. Very expensive, yes. And maybe not. Necessary to maintain a healthy vegan lifestyle.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I would argue that that that, that the fake man, by the way, as someone who's tried all of the fake vegan cheese, it's all shitty. And I apologize to any of anyone who works for offering. I have not tasted vegan cheese yet that made me go. Damn, I want more of this vegan cheese and I eat it in an almost entirely. A vegan diet, but you can do really healthy food, vegan and. And not have it break the bank. So I argue with the premise of this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe that's why it was taken down, because the premise is a little bit difficult, which is this shouldn't be doubling a grocery bill. It does make me wonder how many people are in the household and I guess I would be talking to the. Parent, I'm assuming it's a. Father. But I guess I'm being sort of gender biased here because he references an ex-wife and I don't really know. I don't. Know that our.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Poster revealed their gender doesn't really matter. I just would want to speak with that. Maybe that parent. Maybe that's a better way to phrase it, but. You know what, like, I want to understand a bit more about what the asks are and what looks different now than it did last year when she was eating mostly vegetarian.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And I as as a parent like my own kids went through, you know, wanting different dietary things back when we did eat meat, our our oldest be vegetarian, great support that I think. I think that the question here from what I that I'd like to approach this to more is like is it reasonable for me to say no. To buying very, very expensive food when I can feed my child for less expensively. That that's the question I want to answer here instead of the question they're asking, which is, I forget now, am I the asshole for not wanting to give her vegan food, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Essentially, is what they're looking down to, but I think your interpretation of the question is really the question at hand, which is, am I an asshole for not wanting to buy my child? The very expensive food that they're asking for, and whether or not it's vegan? It doesn't matter. I mean, it could be rib eye and shrimp and crab like doesn't. Doesn't really matter if it's a high price item.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it adds. Too much to your grocery bill? Are you an asshole for telling your child? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. This is one of those areas that people get caught in the the like the I want to be vegan. No, you're not going to be vegan and they get caught in this battle about a thing that doesn't need to be a battle. I am happy to support you're being vegan. Let's look into recipes. Let's look into how to cook really good food together. That will meet your dietary needs and not break the bank. What a great opportunity for learning on everyone's part here instead of people getting dug in and like yo, you have to do it this way. No, I'm doing it wrong. Like that's the part that bothers me here is like, let's have a good conversation about how to do how to do it correctly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And maybe there are some limits to where, OK, our grocery budget is this take any of the animal products that you would have consumed out of that now your portion of the budget, is that can we buy your vegan food on my budget, I mean budgets concern fine and is there then some reasonableness to say to the child OK, anything above and beyond that? Would you please contribute to that? Especially if this 16 year old has a job that might be that might be OK. But to redline it, I'm concerned. I think that that is worrisome for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, like so many things in parenting, this is an opportunity for a teaching moment for the child and an opportunity for a learning moment for the parent. Our kids can teach us a lot, too, right? So what a great opportunity that everyone is throwing in the shedder.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There to work together on doing this in a way that makes the most sense. Again, what we're always looking for in any relationship is how do we get everyone's needs met? And have everyone be happy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, but of course we are not dark chocolate, so perhaps we can't actually catch that cold. But we can certainly get a little closer by starting from a place of admiration and respect and creating a plan that is workable for the family. It's fascinating to me, though, that this parent is not. Is not reacting to the additional work that it might require to make a dish vegan versus not vegan. They're they're they're reacting to the to the cost, and so it does make me wonder what this budget is looking like for this family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Problematic, yeah. Yeah, I want to do a deeper dive into the relationship in general, like how how does this parent and child, what's the dynamics in this parent and child? How do they usually interact when they have conflict? Yeah. Because again, we're always trying to figure out how to resolve conflict and how to teach our kids how to resolve conflict. And. And this is a. Great chance here. I gotta say, like I made I fed 20 people with a pot of vegan chili just yesterday and it cost $5, I said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

20 people with $5 worth of worth of food it vegan food is not necessarily expensive. We actually lose that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I will attest that it was delicious, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, $5 five dollars.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I did it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's not necessarily now if you're buying, but again so like if your child let's let's move this away from this and say if let's say the child said I will only eat, you know, honey crisp apples and you have to buy me honey crisp apple.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

$5.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As a parent, I'd be like you know what? Right now the ambrosias are like $0.99 at the convenience store, I guess. Say they're a loss leader, and the honeycrisps are $3. I will happily buy you apples. I want you to eat fruit, but I'm not spending the three. I'm not buying the $3 a pound apples you can do just fine on the dollar. A pound apples that are, I think, quite the and maybe they're not as good as the honey.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's good. At 3 bucks a pound. But I think that's, I think as parents, we can set those limits and teach our kids how to spend well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think like you were saying earlier, it's really an opportunity to have a conversation with this parent and child about how they communicate on all kinds of things. This may even just be a political difference that they have, right. This child is maybe embracing veganism and perhaps as parent doesn't and has some other worries, latent worries that they haven't brought to the surface. Very often in veganism, the concern is where are you going to get your protein and are you going to get all of your dietary needs, meds and these kinds of things. So now we have an opportunity for maybe the child to educate the parent. What this looks like in reality versus the fears and explore those together, but we're opening up lots of channels of communication around budget, around health, around food, around politics, which could really deepen their relationships. I find that at 16 or in those mid to later teenage years, you're really developing a person with some really complex world. Ideas. And they come home, I think, and sort of startle you sometimes about the way they think about things because you're no longer the sole source of that information going. In and what a cool way to get to know your child is to explore what they've been learning out there and why they think it to be true. Whether or not you agree it doesn't matter.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure. Why do you want to eat vegan? What's going on? Is this a a health thing? Is it a moral thing related to get animals? Is this A is an environmental issue? Like what is what's driving this? And again, the great opportunity for critical thinking. I I'm going to say like, sorry to who the question the parent is asking am I the asshole for, for for the you're. You're not an asshole for saying. I think you're not an asshole for saying for saying no, but it's not about the vegan food, it's about. You're now that you're an asshole for saying I'm not going to spend a bazillion dollars on this. I think you're going to, like, kind of an asshole for, like, not having a conversation and not not not opening this up for an opportunity to explore and just being so absolutist and not like. Aging.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I would agree. And I you know I wanted to say everybody sucks here because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think this teenager is asking for expensive food like sometimes think that teenagers don't really comprehend that. Again, I think I would put that back on the parent. Let's go shopping. Let's look at the grocery store and look at the prices and have that conversation. So I have a hard time really blaming the teenager or saying the teenager truly sucks. But I do think the parents poster sucks. Because they're missing some golden opportunities that wouldn't have made this like you said earlier, I think you really did a nice job and just it would make it teachable. And far more workable. It's not about the veganism.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And I'm going to say not not an ask. Whole, but gosh, you missed an opportunity and the same thing with the kid, not an asshole, but only because, like, teenagers are by definition very egocentric and they don't see the world very well. And. And so I don't necessarily blame this teenager for being kind of a jerk, although I think they're being kind of a jerk by being so, like, absolutist. And everyone's getting caught up in there like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. You up there my way kind of thing. So everyone's kind of being mildly a pain, but I'm not, like mad at any of them. I want to sit them down and say, yeah, that's a conversation about how to make this happen. And let's dispel some myths and rumors. And false beliefs about about some of this stuff, and let's talk about why.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, absolutely. And if necessary, let's bring your doctor in to talk about what any medical concerns might be. Again, depending on the gender of the child and what's going on with their bodies, they may need different nutritional requirements throughout their later teenage years. Just making sure all of those. Of our head.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is where I feel the need to say I am not a nutritionist. However, right one thing that vegan if you're to stick to strict vegan diet B12 is is the only like people often worry about protein, far less of an issue. We don't need most vegan diets do just fine and good balance vegan diets do just fine. On the protein front, but B12 does need to be either supplemented or or checked for. But the other piece to the I'm going to throw this in like like think about vegan diets. If you eat nothing but Oreo cookies and Coca-Cola, that's entirely vegan, yes.

Kelley Buttrick:

You know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fritos Oreos, Coca-Cola and McDonald's French fries. You are absolutely vegan, 100% so like the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Surprise.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Vegan doesn't necessarily equal healthful, and I would want to make sure that that's again part of this. Like, how are you? How are you engaging in being in, in, in following a vegan diet is it is it Oreo cookies and coke or is it like, you know, sweet potato, black bean chili which is delicious personally and nutritious there you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They need Michelle.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, what did what did the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I was just going to say with you guys both kind of weighing in. First of all, you asked earlier or I guess questioning the parent, the parent was the father, he did, he was asked a lot of clarifying questions in the comments and that's actually why this post was removed by the poster because an interesting thing happened. But. I'll get to that in a SEC. So anyway, that he he clarified that they were mostly vegetarian, eating at home. And so the step to veganism was the part that he was struggling with was the cost, and mainly because she was requiring certain snacks that were, you know, like that were vegan snacks and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, we.

Host: Michael:

I hated it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't require snacks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, the potato chips are vegan.

Host: Michael:

Alternative cheeses.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, tortilla chips are tortilla chips are vegan chips are vegan. If you were, if you. If you want to get.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or apples and bananas just from a snack standpoint, what are we consuming baseball?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, yeah. But I mean if you. If you're going to indulge your child in the kind of snacks that teenagers often want. It's not a problem.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oreo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If you want them to have a healthy snack, even better. But I'm just like weighing in here. Like there's nothing if you're already buying potato chips. You. Want to change that? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we should probably let Michael finish. All right, I'll talk to you.

Host: Michael:

That's OK, you’re doing exactly what the Internet did is they like, they're like, what is the deal? What are these stats that this kid was like, what are the snacks the kid want?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They wanted it were expensive.

Host: Michael:

He went on. He like he tried to explain a couple of different times that they had to specifically declare that they're vegan. And so there were certain brands that she was glamming on to that were really expensive. And then also like the vegan cheeses. Lots of nuts, which were more expensive than what he normally bought because she wanted like roasted and macadamia nuts. And some of these things that were more expensive. And then also the one that really killed them was the nut milks. He was like, this is outrageous. And she was drinking a lot of it and smoothies and all kinds. Of stuff so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And he's not wrong. He's not wrong but, but again, this is what a great opportunity. You can make almond milk for.

Kelley Buttrick:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

About $0.15 a quart because almond milk is like 8 almonds for a quart of water. It's like I don't know exactly, but it's some outrageous amount of almond to water ratio so that like almond milk is incredibly cheap to make at home and I think this is an opportunity to argue back with the daughter like yes, I'll get you vegan snacks. But macadamia nuts are hella expensive, and peanuts are dirt cheap. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, and people tried to point out a number of different things like that to him, which were kind of interesting to, to see those. I remember what the other thing was that he said I had one other kind of thought, but anyway, it doesn't matter. Ohh. And people point out like this was an opportunity. Like you both said about budgeting like. You could have said here's my budget. You know, let's look at how we can shop and let's go to the store and shop together. And anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. What a great opportunity that got missed here and it's not about the vegan, it's about the choices within the vegan.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It’s driving me crazy. We're also missing an opportunity to read nutrition label people. It doesn't need to say it on the bag as long or the box of the package as long as you read the ingredient list and butter.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's right there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If you eat a food that's not packaged, guess what? There's not so much a mystery there. It's just a banana. It's just. Put them out. We don't have to worry about what's in it. If we're not eating a lot of processed foods.

Host: Michael:

How are you supposed to know what's in the banana without packaging though.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bananas are bananas are self packaged, you. Know. No need for packaging there. There's no, there's no need. No, I think this is a. This is one of those unfortunate situations where people get caught in there. Preconceived notion of what the argument is and don't step back and say what really is our disagreement here and so many missed opportunity.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I have some empathy for this parent and says OK, I've got this grocery list for my teenager. I went. I bought all the things I really want to support my child and then holy crap at the register. Now this is twice as much and maybe not. I'm really, truly anticipating it, which then gets you locked into a perspective which is often what we're dealing with in our office. Which is that, oh holy crap moment. And now I'm just locked in into a particular way of seeing any issue, and now it becomes me versus you as opposed to ohh. Holy crap, I'm surprised by this. Let me bring that surprise home and have a conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It it. Too many teachable moments best.

Host: Michael:

So to answer your simple question, the Internet almost universally said you're not the asshole because of all of the things. But then what ended up happening is when you actually read the comments, they almost everybody who engaged with the original poster. Was like actually I've changed my mind. You are an asshole. And I would hate dealing with you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because of his, because of his clarifying comments down the road.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, just about every way that he interacted with somebody, there was so much attitude and snark that they were just like, you know what? fuck you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But you know that, but that that really underlies our both GAIL and my primary thesis here, which is that when Dad had the chance to handle this well, he handled it shitty.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And now hearing that, OK, fine. He's an asshole. But not, but not because he said no to expense. Food, but it sounds like he was just willing to shut down his kiddo without any conversation or working with them or doing this. So the I think the internet's convinced me on this one that that that go ahead, GAIL.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, no, I'm. I'm going to disagree. I'm going to say he talks, but I'm not going to call him an asshole. I think on my slider meter. I'm. I'm maybe a little bit more. Until or do you think he sucks? By the way, though is throwing it off to his ex partner and saying buying you pay for it like. Check it out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the original question, if I remember correctly is is. Am I wrong for telling her she has to get or telling my child they have to? Get a job like.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, that was actually. It's like if you're going to do this, you need a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I remember that.

Host: Michael:

Job to pay for this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a bit of a. That's a bit of an extreme perspective to take, you know, and I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, if you get a budget and she wants to go. There as her budget. Maybe she is a child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean like I want to become a pilot. OK, you know that you want to pay for the your lessons. You should go get a job. I want to eat food. No, that's my responsibility as a parent. To provide you with food. Within reason and within limits and yeah, I'm just, I'm getting the more we talk about this guy, the more annoyed I'm getting with him. I'm sorry. Sorry, Dad, but you're kind of you kind of starting to shit me off.

Host: Michael:

You're not alone. That's entirely what the Internet seemed to find. Was like, you know, the more we engage with you, the less we are on your side and the more we think there's more going on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So maybe he's an asshole, but not for this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Weird. I think it's so weird. The family is already mostly vegetarian, it just doesn't seem like it should have been that far a leap, nor such a surprise. So maybe he is an asshole. Maybe I'm coming around.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. Yeah, yeah, me and the Internet are convincing you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's scary. What the Internet. Can you do me much?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. What I'm what I'm surprised about is that people don't aren't, like assholes all over. Just often whenever you mention vegan people just shit all over the diet. Anyone who does it, that's like kind of preconceived notion of of the. Complete inflexibility and gosh my friend is vegan, therefore we can't do anything with them, and they're being so demanding and pushy and I, which is the stereotype which I do not adhere to, I think, but maybe my non vegan friends would disagree. So there you. Go.

Host: Michael:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you Internet for not shitting on. Well, veganism in general.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I'll say I didn't see any comments like that. So it was actually kind of as somebody who is definitely more vegetarian or more vegan than not, I always kind of looked for those as well. I didn't see any comments, but thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And thank you to the Internet because life is strange. You can't make this stuff up. We got to go there to find all of these great, great snippets and scenarios.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and TuneIn after the credits, where I'm going to ask Doctor MacBride about something in her. This would be, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

Please follow and share for our test views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And like dance and stick around through the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So you've got this like magic wand in your office. What's that about? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The one from the dollar store.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A little wand. It's meant for, you know, a child's Princess party or something like that. That's fit. I mean personality.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It was a gift from a friend and a colleague years ago. She was sort of joking that in mental health, sometimes we just need a magic wand to help people feel better. Right? And I started incorporating it into the question that I asked most of my new clients, which is if I had a medium power magic wand, because as you can see, my magic wand is from the dollar store. It's not very high power. It only changes you, right? It does. Doesn't bring you love or money. What would change if you felt better? And so it's a great starting place for their conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love that question. I love that. I love that question and medium power magic wand.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, you have to be like medium power.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's great. All right, well. We're going to come back again next week with. Another one right?

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thanks so much for tuning in. Like Dan said, TuneIn next week for another AM. I the asshole, debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychology.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I'm really excited to be doing another one of these with Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As am I. So Michael, you've got a scenario for Doctor MacBride and I to pick apart. Let's, let's. Go.

Host: Michael:

Let's do it. First of all though.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Getting rolling. Actually, I just want and they're up. I'm so excited. We've done enough of these now that if you're listening and maybe you're new, you can binge a whole bunch of these all along. I love getting enough episodes of the podcast on, you know, kind of rolling so that I can just start burning through them. We're there. Dan, this is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. What do you have? We are officially binge worthy now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we're doing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Pretty great. All right, what do we have, Michael? What do we have out there right now, 1085?

Host: Michael:

Well, yeah. Well, this is our.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This week, but we won't air this one for a while. Yet I was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure.

Host: Michael:

Going to say, I think this is actually #14.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, excellent. So if you're listening to this, we have thirteen others. Get out there and listen.

Host: Michael:

If well, first of all, for anybody who, this is their first episode and they're like, what the hell is this? You might not know. What am I, an asshole is. And the simple explanation is a poster out there asks the question and simply says who is the asshole here? That's we're going to help determine if you're new. Also stick around through the credits. There's always a bonus conversation. But for now, neither Dan nor Gayle have heard this or read this before, and what's his?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I will just interject and say if you're an experienced listener, you might all say what the hell is this? But hopefully the answer is I'm using and something that I want to return.

Host: Michael:

So this post did a really good job, so some of the “am I the asshole” posts do a wonderful job of both embodying what the exact question is and also being attention grabbing in the title.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Excellent.

Host: Michael:

And this was one of those that, like it seems absurd, but it made me laugh. But it definitely caught my attention. So that's why that's why it's our topic for today, which is a my battle for telling my mom and dad that they have to get their noses pierced if they want to see my. Daughter again. What?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, I often immediately jump in with an answer, and this time I'm just going to be like I need more information.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is one of those. Now this is one of those ones where they, like, ask a really outrageous question. But then when you actually look at it like, oh, that's not. So crazy or?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I hope so. So Michael, enlighten us, please dealing the headline driving picture.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So there's a fair amount of there's a fair amount of content here. So I'll get through it as quick. I can, but my husband I traveled to Mexico to visit with this family. I am an American citizen. My mom and dad are not my mom and dad. Got my daughters, got my daughter's earrings for her birthday. My daughters ears are not pierced. She is only one year old. I told them that I would save them for her until. She was old. Enough to get her ears pierced. We left my daughter with my parents while we went to go meet up with some friends.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, I hear I know what's coming.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh no ohh no it. Got worse in my head. Like I know where this is going. Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Grandma and Grandpa Pierce in those years, aren't they don't, by the way, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. No. Yeah, we can. But why? We already know. But Grandma and Grandpa are being jerks. All right, continue, Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh alright. Please just let me go finish but ohh. Should that's the format of the show.

Host: Michael:

When we went back to pick up my daughter, my mom. Showed us that they didn't, that we didn't. Need to wait because they had already taken her to get her yours pierced as you determined. Yeah, I got my daughter and drag my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Host: Michael:

Been out of there before he lost his shit. We went back to our hotel. I am furious. My husband said that my parents are not allowed to spend time with my daughter alone again. Ever. I went further. I said I would not be bringing her or any other kids we might have down to Mexico to see my parents. We checked out three days early and went home on our way home. My parents were calling to see when we were coming over. Ignored all the calls and texts until we were back home in Phoenix. We took a couple of days to think things over and pull down. I finally called. And I asked them not to speak until I was done talking. I told them that my husband I are upset for them getting my baby's ears cursed without a permission. I told them that we want to come back home, but probably wouldn't be visiting for a while. They said. My sister and I both had ears pierced when we were babies and it didn't harm us, so they didn't see what the problem was. I said they're not changing their minds. They started getting everybody involved, including my grandmother, to call me saying I was being ridiculous. I talked with my husband we came up with a problem of compromise. We agreed that we would resume visits, but not alone time as long as they got their noses pierced. They both said we were being stupid and they're. Not going to do. I said no problem and hang up. So who's the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My gosh. Wow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For fuck’s sake. Oh my God.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is bad. You do not do this kind of thing without parental permission. I can't even imagine the place that they went unless they did the piercing on their own.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I. I'm just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is equally terrible, like. How can you do that without parental consent?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I mean well it I suspect if it was in, if it was in Mexico, rules are are often not. I know I don't know about your piercings. I've never pierced anything. I mean maybe, but we're not going to go there right now. I. I know that certainly pharmacies you can buy anything in Mexico and I suspect that there may not be as many rules around what you are not allowed to do in a piercing place of Grandma and Grandpa. Bring a kid in. But I don't know. I've never pierced anything in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I've I've never tried the pierce anything in in Mexico. I do have piercings, but I my memory is. I needed the parents permission because I was a minor. But that being said, I mean, OK, so aside like you have parents that have said no, we don't want this. Whatever this is for their child and grandma and Grandpa have decided to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mexico. No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Even armed with that information, go ahead and act. Opposite to that, and essentially attempts to get forgiveness because they couldn't get permission. I'm sure there are cultural aspects here that we're going to under appreciate because I don't. I've never been fully immersed in the Mexican culture, but I do think that was a wrong decision, flat out wrong and the justification that we did it when you were young. No harm, no. Well, is not rationale. That is not something that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean, that's clearly ridiculous. But I'm also like, like, come on, like, I'm a little annoyed at everyone here. Like, this is your solution. I mean, we're not going to bring the kids around you anymore. We're not going to. And you have to get your nose pierced first. Like, I'm going to like, I'm going to, like, violate.

Host: Michael:

Oh, there's somebody layers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Your bodily autonomy and demand that you do this, this, this thing that you don't want to do because you did to my kid like there are ways of resolving this that are better than that and that would just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh I totally agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, come on, mom. Is that mom? Who did that? Or dad who? Said that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mom.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But Michael's nodding mom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like just nodding things. Yeah. No, it's mom. Well, you know, husband came to it together, but I agree. That feels like a 5 year old solution to a problem here. We you're not going to say if you do that, that that is not reasonable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just like like. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean clearly. So I mean, clearly, grandma and Grandpa are way out of line doing this and regardless of their reasoning. I mean, I don't care what their reason is that, that the reason is well, you let me do it or you did. Like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't. I don't care. What their reasoning is they're out of line. Yes. Period.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think what's asking them to get the nose pierced really just made a bad. Situation worse. Not what we do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I mean. Well, the other the other piece here is that there's is that I am angry at these at these grandparents. I'm really angry at them. And if they were my kids grandparents, I would be furious with them for doing this and I would still want my children to have grandparents in their lives unless there's some big. Other thing that makes them not appropriate and I don't know that I dropped them off at their house for the weekend. At least not until I was really clear that we'd established, reestablished trust. But there’s I don't want. I think losing this relationship isn't to health necessarily a good thing either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now we've got so much black and white thinking going on here, it's almost as if they are saying, you know, we're just never going to leave her alone. Look, she's not going to be this age, I presume. I don't remember. Michael, if you said how old this child was. But it sounds like one or younger probably.

Host: Michael:

One, are you hungry?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so like for a really long time. You know, if you have older children, they can start to speak for themselves. Like, this dynamic is going to change. Let's not get to black and white about this. So and again, like peers, who knows or I'm not going to visit again. I mean this is black and white thinking just all over the place and it's not helpful. I totally respect though if the parents say hey.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You broke our trust and therefore you will not be the caretakers in charge of my child. Killed until such other time as we've reestablished this relationship and because you can't reestablish it if you're not visiting and working on it. So you effectively cut off any ability to rebuild and repair.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And that's and that's that's the unfortunate part here. Like again, unless parents have been really egregious about things in the past, I don't. I don't want my, I mean, my kids, grandparents to not be part of their life if they could be a really positive influence on them. And the more the more people who love their kids and. And do good by them. Like the better, right? Yeah. And if we're going to assume that the grandparents are not toxic. Yeah, they did something pretty awful. Let's not. Let's not. I mean, it's that it's not quite a other than that, Mrs. Lincoln. How was the play situation? But it's pretty shitty what they did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is 100%.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And it's a, it's a real frustration, but I've certainly seen this tension before in couples, and I'm sure, Gayle, you have too, where like Grandma and Grandpa are, like, we raised you. And we clearly did an OK job. So why are you telling us we can't do what we used to do? Cuz she's different now, grandma, like and no, you have to do it this way. And I understand that you don't like it. And that's not what you did. We're not. It's not an indictment of you as parents. This is the way we do it now. Yes, we don't. Whatever this comes up a lot. Around spanking kids, you know, for misbehaving.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do find that grandma and sometimes really have a hard time accepting that backseat role that they, you know, because they do feel like, well, I've been through it. I've done it. So therefore, you know, just trust me, it's fine. That, you know, we also underappreciate those, there's another parent involved that they didn't raise. They had nothing to do with, and times have changed. I mean I'm, I used to say to clients, you know, you need to be careful about the parenting advice that you receive and from whom you receive it. If they haven't had a baby in the last five years, you might want to think very critically about what information they're giving you because. I was astounded in the 2 1/2 years between my children. Even then, how much things had changed and. I thought I had it and. Build and there were things that were different. Car seats, in particular those recommendations changed so quickly, and maybe my kids just sat a bridge to that. But I was surprised and it became a point of just encouraging and empowering parents to say I don't have to take my parents advice. I don't even have to take my older siblings advice on how to parent. Because you know these these things that we want to consider for our children can change just that quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And if there's any area where people feel comfortable giving unsolicited. The advice it's parenting like everyone because everyone like like thinks well, I was a parent and I'm I didn't I you know I so I must have been good at it and I so the feedback I've got it is going to be right and that's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I will go so far as to say it's not even. I mean, yes, implicit advice, but also just criticism, right? And it's still like a baby name episode we were talking about that, you know, a few weeks back like you do you feel the right to weigh in here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And a we didn't ask you and B when when you did stick your nose and we told you no and you did it anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The other piece here is because I tell you I want to do it differently. You did does not mean that. I'm saying you're a bad parent or does not mean saying that I that that I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm saying you didn't do a good job we can disagree reasonably rationally kindly with with and not it's not like the end of the world if I disagree with my parents. About although like I couldn't really do that now parents aren't aren't with me anymore, but like if they were, I like when I did disagree with my mother. May her memory be her. Saying when I did disagree with my mother, like sometimes that was taken as a personal affront and I hope I'm better when I'm a grandparent. One day I hope I'm better at getting the feedback that my kids will undoubtedly give me, that I'm doing it wrong and I'm like Oh no, I'd and I could hear myself. I could even hear myself going. Well, that's the way I raised you so. It must have been right, like, oh, shit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The option.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If you're listening, kids, remind me. Of this, when I act. Dickish years down the road and tell you that. Yeah, I did it right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I've certainly disagreed with my parents and. And they've been a bit insistent and. Quite frankly, I. The response can't be a black and white, no. As you said, it's always best if there are more people around to love the kids. So maybe you adjust at what points you interact with someone to make it more comfortable. And workable, that's what we want at the end of the day, we don't want to just arbitrarily cut people out of someones life. And unless there's a real toxic toxicity to the relationship. Necessitates that that is an action of necessity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that certainly can happen, but that's but that's I and we're assuming here that that's not the case that, that these parents aren't toxic outside of this piece. And really we're talking about here is is I want you to respect my decisions around my parenting and you may not agree but it's still your job to follow. What I'm saying, because I'm we're the parents.

Host: Michael:

Let let me jump in really quick and build on what you just said then because that was something there was a a really lengthy in depth side conversation. In the comments, which are often my favorite, things like, you know, usually the usually the best joke is not the joke, it's in the comments. But in this case, like one of the side conversations was OK like the most glaring problem with the earring thing, as you said not to. And the grandparent did it and you will forever have a lasting memory of this thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Oh yes.

Host: Michael:

It's a permanent choice, obviously. You could let the holes close or whatever, but they said, OK, so let's walk it back. Like, what could your grant, what could your parents do like? OK, what if they let them have sugar and you said not to have sugar. And you know what? If you know, where is the line essentially where it. Problem. Some things are forgivable. Some things are not. You know, if you, if you had to say where that line is, what is that, you know, where is the grandparents? Where's the grandparents fund? You know, their ability to not be a parent and just kind.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, that's a big question.

Host: Michael:

Of yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's a good question, cause my own mother will feed my children cookies before a meal. It just drives me. Freaking wall. But you know what she will say, but I'm allowed to be grandma. And I think she's on the correct side of the line for it. I don't love it. Shouldn't do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was talking to this, this, this fellow adult who is a grandfather who is taking care of like 4. I forget the age of the kid. Four years old. The grandpa. Can I have such and such a candy? And he's like, no, you can't do that. Guess. And then he went. Wait, I'm grandpa now. Absolutely you can. And I went and got. The candy like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, that's fantastic. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, I mean I think it's I think we need to recognize that there is at least within within my cultural experience American cultural experience like there is some value to the, the grandparents spoiling the grandchild and the number of times the parents that people say like where were these people when I was being raised these first time. Super nice. Indulgent. Like where were you when I was growing up? When I like. You wouldn't have done any of this shit for me. Like, why you being so cool to my kid? And. And that's part of being a grandparent is is the opportunity to spoil your grandkids.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So like there are going to be these clashes hopefully about things that are not so boundary violations as this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Well, and I think the line is fuzzy at best. I have clients who have said, you know, I've let my I've had my parents take care of my kids. They don't put them on the nap schedule. They don't they or they have naps them when I don't want them. To nap or. You know those kinds of things they have gotten to the point where you know, I can't let my parent watch my child. Anymore because they're not respecting my wishes and I think the line is fuzzy because it's different for each of us. You know, people have definitive views around whether or not you smoke around their child or even have smoked in your car and then transport that child in your car at clients being really particular about that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And what a hard and. Well, by the way, I think everyone shitty here. I also want to be aware that the that that it's really hard to make that transition like I've heard. Would say to their children about their grandchildren, but they're like, hey, don't tell me what to do with your kid. I wipe your shit like I don't need you to tell me that I can't do this when I'm the parent here or I'm the grandparent here. And there is a reality to how challenging it is to give up that role of being able to make all the decisions. Because now you've gotta acquiesce to your child's adult child's desire around their child. And that's a tough transition for a lot of. Grandparents to make.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In. Like oh, you. Look like you have something you want to add or.

Host: Michael:

Say, well, I was going to say Dan very slowly offered his judgment, which is everybody stuck there. So where?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I heard that. I heard that.

Host: Michael:

Are you at? Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, everybody sucks here. I really am upset at the grandparents and I think that was probably because I'm not a grandparent, but I'm a parent. And I could see. How quickly we slide into making decisions for the child that I wouldn't want to have to have made. So I was really pretty annoyed at the parents that the grandparents first. But I really liked. And Dan, you really hit it on. Head they violated the child's body autonomy by getting her ears pierced against the parents wishes, and now the parents are doing this tip for tat thing by coming back and saying to their parents. Now you need to Pierce your nose. I'm going to push you on your body autonomy and I'm going to hold that hostage so that if you want a relationship with your grandchild. And I don't like that either. There’s no world in which we can have someone to do something with their body in a quid pro quo kind of way that's actually going to make this any better. No one's going to feel good with that solution. And that's what makes you know what I might even go further. Not everybody sucks here. Everyone here are shitty.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Either and then they send I'm pulling. Everyone's an asshole here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, everyone's pretty shitty here. Everyone missed the opportunity to be respectful to someone else. Everyone missed the opportunity for a grown up. I say it's over and over again. Have a asshole grown up conversation. Mom. I am really angry at you for doing this. You violated like my wishes as a parent, and this is not OK with me. I need to know that I can trust you before you can be around my child and the parent grandparents. Like, yeah, we screwed up big time. We totally like everyone should be doing this and like not not this kind of like. Well, you have to do this and I'll do that. No, I have the right to because I did it parents. Even just getting caught up in their own shit and no one's trying to work it out in a way that makes everybody happy and brings the family together, everyone just trying to this family. Yeah. So you all suck. Except.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For the kid?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Who probably has, you know, probably doesn't have earrings anymore. I'm guessing they took them out and they're they’ll heal over and give it her age. Probably won't remember anything about it because juvenile amnesia is present until about age 2. So fortunately there won't be any recollection. I believe. Is that still accurate? Yeah, I think it's accurate. Yeah. They just don't remember anything before that point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You'll probably be. Fine. Yeah, you know, but wow. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

May I have some questions about where? Her grandparents are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but wouldn't that be terrible too?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That would that would be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A huge loss would really suck. That would.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, she could potentially be missing out on a huge part of not just her family, but her heritage, because now we've got, you know, people living in another country, and if they hold her from experiencing that they will, they will cut her off and to some extent from from her cultural.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. All right, Michael. Yeah. Yeah. So the Internet fell into three camps. They were. You're not the asshole, they, you know, was a violation of your trust. OK. The other one was you were the asshole for making an outrageous request. And then the third. And I would say the most compelling agrees with you that everybody's shitty here. Everybody's an asshole. And my favorite comment in the everybody sucks. Here was your request, which you believe to be an ultimatum and outrageous still gives them the choice that your daughter and you did not have. And I was like, wow, that's. Actually pretty insightful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That. That's it. That, that that's really interesting. I do. You know, I sometimes think about this idea of what if and play it all the way through to its logical conclusion. What if the parents go? All right, that's worth it. And they show up with pierced noses now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is. What? Yeah, you someone you ever resolve the underlying, like? OK, well, we did it. So we'll just, we'll, we'll do something else and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm crazy about 1 preacher, your loves like. Just we'll just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do what we need to do. Whenever we scrub, we'll do the punishment and we'll move. On like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Like. No, no, just that's just pretty ugly. So yeah.

Host: Michael:

So this other. Kind of long. Your post is in general about situations like this where it says there are so many times. These posts come about because just like you were saying, the parents and the grandparents shit heads over what's appropriate or not, and they always seem to follow this scheme of of you did this thing and now an off ultimatum. Now it happens, never resolving the issue. You need to close the loop and come back. So I was very glad to see that ultimately they said, you know, stick. Your guns about, you know, the line that you drew but don't require something equally ridiculous. You need to move forward from here, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We agree then with the Internet I at least I agree with the Internet on this one if that's if that was the primary response. I think that's I just hate seeing families torn apart unnecessarily and everyone, everyone is taking this family down a really ugly path. And there's just. Their opportunities to save this, so let's save this.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I totally agree. Well, thanks for humoring me and going down this road. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and just kind of the topic kind of definitely caught my eye. Remember, though, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black and white as we, as we pointed out. In this episode.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I gotta tell you, I am constantly. At the Internet and the strange scenarios that come about in this particular form and you just can't make this stuff up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So stay tuned for a special conversation after the credits, and also you should like and follow and subscribe and tell your friends because that matters.

Host: Michael:

Definitely. As Dan said, follow share like review, do all those things on any of the podcast platforms and definitely stick around through the. Credits. They're not too. Long and they're kind of funny. I like the credits, but.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, how do you pick these? Like, how do you, how do you make the decisions on these like you know, I mean briefly, sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well qualifying request.

Host: Michael:

Briefly, it's important with me. I appreciate that and I'll try to stick to it. I scroll through them and I look for topics that kind of intrigue me and then usually they're disappointing. You know usually the headline is attention grabbing, click baity kind of stuff and then like the conversation doesn't really go anywhere, I will say. There are an awful lot of these that. They're posted by miners like under 18, and I almost universally discount those because I don't know. I remember being a minor and I was dumb and so like the. Questions. They asked, I think, kind of frivolous and I don't know, maybe I shouldn't do that but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, no, I think I also think there's there'll be a consent issue here. I mean, if an adult post something online, they know they're broadcasting to the world and I wouldn't feel comfortable if there was one for a minor. I'm moving forward with it. So I think you're right there, Michael.

Host: Michael:

I like your explanation better than mine. I'm going to go with that from now on instead of just discounting the. Concerns of my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I think that that I'm glad. To be able to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Really clear. He does not discount the millions of minors that. Live in his household. That's for that, but online, I do think it's a consent issue.

Host: Michael:

I agree. Yeah, but no, usually, you know, I'm looking for something that I think you guys can sink your teeth into. And, you know, I know a little bit about each of you. And so sometimes I find something that I go like. Oh, I wonder what that will bring out in the conversation. And it's kind of fun to see if you if you take that bait or not. Usually you do, which is good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

But you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Know hey, learn.

Host: Michael:

And then, you know, sometimes it's just, you know, the. Ones that are. Are really hot online. You know they have lots of comments. I'll be drawn to those who will be like, well, there must be something that people are worth having. This conversation about so. I don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As well as. Any.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, thanks again, Michael. No, thanks again Michael for coming up with a really terrific and interesting question.

Host: Michael:

It's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Better than the eenie miney moe option that he had you. Know when we first.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Now it now it would suck.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do appreciate the time you put into selecting these because I'm sure you come up with them. And we. Just have to sit back and chat. Fantastic. I know there's some work that goes into it. Ahead of time, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Tuning in next week for a wonderful am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

What is that? (Listen to the end of the episode, after the credits, to find out!)

Transcript

Kelly Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with me today is doctor Daniel Kessler. As I always say, you're with is matched by your intellect. No, all the way around your intellect is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Either. I think the point is that they're both.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So probably order doesn't matter.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They're both equal, which means that I'm either really funny and really smart, or the exact opposite on both, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know you consistently make me laugh, so I'm going to go. Hi. And Alex? Really ready.

Host: Michael:

Alright, alright, alright well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And Gayle, I'm, I'm. I'm looking forward to tackling another one of these really interesting queries. So Michael take us away.

Host: Michael:

Of course. Well, welcome both of you. First of all, and for any of the newbies out there, if you don't know, what am I? The asshole is, in short, someone posts a scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here. And that's we're going to help determine if you're new. Also remember, stick around or you should also know. Stick around through the credits because we always have a bonus conversation. That's kind of fun. Right now, neither Gayle nor Dan have read through or been prompted or know this in any way. So they're coming at this cold and they'll give you their insights. Let's roll. This is an international one, which is kind of fun, although the other ones, I guess, don't specifically specify they're from the United States, but they usually have indicators that they're probably US based. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, this is a good exercise then in us using our cultural competency. That's something that's really important for a psychologist to continue to be aware of what our limits are in those cultural competencies, in today's culturally competent. Possible due to our just our. Standard of ethics, so bring it on. Michael, thank you.

Host: Michael:

I like it. I like it so the headline is, am I the asshole for telling my disabled friend that not everything can be disabled friendly, which is poorly worded, but I think you'll understand what you mean. So this is the rest of it. The poster is 25 male and he's taking his friends.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. OK.

Host: Michael:

Two men, two female, same age range, 24 to 27 around New Zealand, where he lives. One of them female, 27 is in a wheelchair and is a big disabled rights advocate, won't say her name, but she has a following on TikTok. Instead. She's made her whole OK blah blah. I'm going to skip over that part plan this three-week trip with activities that are disabled friendly. Absolutely fine. We all have wine tastings, walks, boat cruises, etcetera. With one exception. Three of us wanted to do a famous Alpine crossing. It's over 8 hours over rocky terrain and 1200 meters of elevation chain change, none of it wheelchair friendly. Before the trip, we cleared this with her and she was fine with it because there were smaller flat walks that she could do with her other friend who had no interest on the hike. But she changed her mind while were actually prepping on that day and wanted to do the full crossing with us. We tried to gently talk her out of it. I've done it once before and I explained exactly how hard it is, but she spent the next 90 minutes grumbling. It's so unfair that it's not wheelchair accessible if it's a tourist attraction, it shouldn't be. Hardly any wheelchair access. I'm going to tell my followers to complain that it's discriminatory and we kept mumbling. Yep, while we. Packed and tried to keep her happy, but then she said it's not too hard to add a cable car to the top, and I sort of snapped and said it's literally a volcanic zone and a place of natural beauty. No one is adding a cable car. I fell up with and here is where I may be the asshole. I know it's your whole thing, but not everything can be wheelchair accessible. She just stared and everything kind of fell apart from there. So am I the asshole in this situation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, so I'm going to not, I don't know that. And what's the gender of the original poster here? It's like the poster was male and the friend is female?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Male.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, I don't know that he's having traveled with a disabled person for like many, many years now. We know that not everything is going to be disabled friendly and there are going to be some activities. Is that you can't. That can't be done. And it’s unfortunate. It’s really sad at the same time. It doesn't sound like he was terribly kind to his friend in his manner of responding, not necessarily so that he's wrong, but that doesn't sound like it was handled well to me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I totally agree. I mean, when you find yourself at the point of snapping, you probably have. Other opportunities to communicate with empathy and compassion and grace before that, you know, we've spent 90 minutes ramping up. Both individuals have spent 90 minutes becoming angry and more entrenched in their particular positions, which by the way, are being fueled by that probably very universal experience of disappointment. Right. Disappointment on the on the female friends and because now she has changed her mind, she. Wants to go. Totally get it right. And all my friends are doing this and I'd like to be able to join them and she's not wrong, right? Without him because he lots of these things wouldn't have become wheelchair accessible. But she's absolutely right to advocate for that accessibility, whether or not it's going to get built doesn't mean that she can't advocate it or shouldn't advocate for it. And yet the male friend is becoming really entrenched in in his position and disappointment that you. Know he went. To some lengths to verify the itinerary and to make sure that people had fun things to do. And I think he's feeling really kind of let down because maybe he just even felt like he didn't do a good job and it starts to feel personal and he loses it. He snaps unfortunately and says. And that's really regrettable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now, to be clear, everything. That can be made accessible should. Absolutely. You know, even if it's, I mean and there are some places that that I've been and I've gone, they could have done something here like they could have made the success of all. And I don't know enough about this particular situation to see whether that whether this could have been made accessible or not. But that's really not the issue here. The issue here isn't whether or not it can be made accessible or whether the friend was being reasonable or the person's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, the issue is the unkind, really. Action that they had now. Yeah. I I'm. I'm going to. I'm going to for a moment presume that that that that his friend was reasonable. and what she was asking although I also don't know whether the type of solution she was proposing was feasible and may it may or may not be depending on other conflicting rules.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and certainly not feasible for her to be able to go on this trip. I mean, all just it may have been stellar and absolutely what ended up. Thing, it's not going to work for this particular trip. It's not getting her any closer to that type.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ah, this kind of sucks I don't like. It when we. When we agree so. Well, we need to, like find a a good point of disagreement to kind of get annoyed with each other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About right, which we can do and we can spur on that. But I think you know ultimately therapist and us, you know we do align really similarly we provide. But you know, strong cognitive, behavioral take on things where we really work with our clients, we're on relationships. Sometimes we're just going to respectfully agree and say, yeah, we would do it in our office. I will offer though, as a point of discussion, one of my favorite points of education for clients around this kind of emotion that the poster is experiencing and his friend too, which is Emily Nagoski's. Sleepy hedgehog, model of emotion management. I love this and I think the book has maybe been republished. So there are some tweaks in it. I have a version of it that that I just I love it and. Actually, I loved it so much when I read it. I then sat down with my then pre teenage boys and read this section. Now if anybody knows anything about Emily Nagoski's work and this is actually coming from her book, come as you are. I think I failed to mention that this is a book written by yeah, you've got it there on your on your table. This is the work of someone who is a is a sex educator, and that particular book deals with primarily female sex and sexuality. So she's really taking this lens. You think? Why would you read teenage or preteen boys an excerpt out of a book about female sex? Well, because what doctor Nagoski does in such a wonderful way is to talk about the experience of having an emotion. And she talks about it in a sleepy hedgehog because I think it's, you know, hedgehogs are kind of cute, but they got little spiky quills and you need to. Need to handle them appropriately and she talks about if you're having a feeling, why don't you think about it as a hedgehog that you find and in an inconvenient place? On your home, like the chair, you're about to sit in. So rather than sit on the hedgehog, you pick them up and you notice its name, right? Or if it's unnamed, you give it a name, and in this case, you name your emotion. Each of these, the poster and the friend would have benefited by just simply saying I feel right, and sometimes they're more than one feeling at a time. But I'm having this emotion. And then the second step is to figure out what is that feeling need. If you've been hurt or disappointed, how can you heal that loss? Three, what do you what was it? It's name. Sit. Sit with it. What does it need or what do you need for it? And then tell your partner and saying I feel X and what I need is Y. And your partner has the opportunity to turn towards you and help heal that that loss or that feeling. Right. So, you know, in the case of this particular poster, you'll feel really disappointed. I made plans that I thought would accommodate everyone. What I need from you is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can totally. I mean again, I see this happens a lot with these kinds of things where people get so entrenched. And I I'm going to rollback to every ROM com could be resolved by a good conversation minutes into it. You know here's an opportunity. I imagine that this that this friend got there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And just. Was really disappointed by her inability to participate in something that it's going to be such an amazing and meaningful activity, and the original post strike could certainly soon then, well, you know, were thing back then we'd resolved this. We're going to be able to do this. It was going to be fun. You're going to have things to do and I'm feeling I could see them both feeling that deep sense of disappointment and sadness. and frustration and then, you know, you've been. Being for, for disability, for accessibility, for disabled, disabled folks, for many years, this is just going to bring back all of that pain of being left out of things over and over and over and over. Even if you haven't been able to get no disabled, folks get left out of things over and over and over again. And here's just another thing that everyone that. I'm being being excluded from that. I shouldn't be and it makes perfect sense. To me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Actually, because you may not know what that hike looks like and you get there and go, Oh my God. This looks amazing. I don't want to miss this. You know what you have planned for me instead is really sort of second rate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, it's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not that you know, and not that that that was done through harm or malice, just simply accessibility, right? And so, like you said, you're brought back to all that hurt and pain. The things that the rest of the able bodied world does without thinking about how someone without the ability to emulate on their own would be impacted by that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But with couple of thought, and anytime we're talking about people's feelings in couples, like it often comes up that that, you know, we don't necessarily, we're not necessarily reacting out of what happened just now we're reacting of what just happened just now and all the stuff leading up to the state. And so often when I'm working with couples, you know, we're trying to figure out is the hurt you're experiencing is the intensity of feeling your.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, today in eight out of 10, does that match what happened or is today really a three or four out of 10, but all that other shit that's happened to this date, like of men said and it kind of blows it up to and you're reacting like an 8 and then the partner is react is what the hell you're reacting like this I get that you're hurt like. and I'm not saying this is what's happening here at all, although it might be. But certainly we see that a lot where people are reacting out of previous hurts as much.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So well said. Thank you because you know the most common thing a couple will say. Now again, I don't know that these these two people are necessarily romantically involved. Couple, but when we do see couples, one of the things that they say the most often is, man, we had the biggest disagreement over something. So stupid. Of course you did. But it's exactly what you just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Set.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it’s just all the feelings being being being pulled up again and when that's happening, if we're able to recognize ourselves but also be able to recognize for the other person like they're reacting like it may seem unreasonable in this moment. But if we look at the entire history, look at this person's person's background history or our background. Together as a couple in case of a couple situations like their reaction actually makes quite a bit of sense and how do I how do I, you know, give some grace here and try to be accepting of how tough this is for them. I think both of them could have done a bit of that in this. I'm not saying they're assholes, by the way. I'm not saying they're assholes at all. OK, maybe the dude who posted this a little bit because he. Kind of lost his shit there, but in general like, it sounds like like, both of these people came from a genuine place. At least to start out with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It wasn't negative. That wasn't unkind, did we? Just make a ruling early.

Host: Michael:

I think so. That's what I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe. Maybe. We bumped it a little bit. I, you know, and Dan, I again. I would agree with you that I don't think there are assholes here. I don't think anybody sucks per se. I think the end response was shitty and really requires a relationship repair now because.

Host: Michael:

Was going to ask you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of the way she presented that disagreement, that that shouldn't have been said that way. and hopefully they have a strong enough relationship that they can engage in that repair.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would hope so, because he is and I think there are two places in which I think he he crossed the line certainly at the end with that harsh but you know going well you know they they couldn't possibly do that because of this and that and you don't need to explain to her what where it couldn't be done. You don't know this and my guess is that that was born out of some sense of defensiveness and. And one you know and that I don't think that was necessary or useful either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I found myself thinking the same thing when he was reacting to the suggestion. Like, how do you know? Are you a geoscientist that knows what can and cannot be done? I mean, I understand where he's coming from, but yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like I do, but it sounded more like defensiveness than it sounded like respectful. Kind discussion of the of the possibilities of installing handicapped. Accessibility.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I I would. Have named it almost mansplaining when we get mansplained as women very often it does explain some defensiveness, and I say this with my business partner and my husband on the line. We're all men, you know, men play, but they do, and that's how. That's how it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It it had element, it certainly had that mansplaining elements to it, at least the way that you posted. What are the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So there, there are actually two comments I'm going to read in their entirety in a moment. One is actually a follow up from the poster, which you do.

Kelly Buttrick:

Really.

Host: Michael:

Often get. So I actually kind of appreciate. Yeah, kind of. And sometimes when they delete their account. And anyway, the one piece of information that I wanted to know that I don't see any information in there about is the ethnicity of the person, the disabled person. Like, I would love to know if she was a New Zealander.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They drop and run.

Host: Michael:

As well, because obviously then. She would be well, she would really know about exactly what she's in for or, you know, because some of the conversation in the Internet conversation was assuming that she was American and entitled. And they packed a bunch of stuff on her and then coming to this other country and imposing her expectations from her country. On New Zealand I don't see anything to back that up and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The ethnicity of the person who was doing the hosting, either we sort of assume maybe he is a New Zealander, but maybe he's an American living abroad you don't know.

Host: Michael:

That's true. There were interesting side conversations about how you can't impose your country's perspective on another country like just because people went on about the US. National parks and how and good and bad, because this brought out some of the worst of the Internet, where people were like, it's nature. You're not supposed to mess with it and blah blah blah where other people were like, well, everybody should have access to the national parks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like you know, I'm going to interrupt a plug here if you have a permanent disability, you can get a lifetime pass to that will get you into every National Park in the United States if you're US center every National Park in the United States, and it's a lifetime pass for you and the people accompanying you. So just putting that plug in here for the. A lifetime US and I forget the name. Of the past. But we'll we'll.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's fantastic. So yeah, that's a that's a. That's great. I thought they only did it for kids in the 4th grade year, so it's really nice to know that they've extended that to other individual group.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Lifetime Pass for anyone who has a who has a permanent disability, plus their family. Numbers. Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

That's awesome. In terms of the internet's ruling, there were really kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wait, wait. Before you say that, let me let me go back to something else though. is we can't impose our countries values on other countries. They get that. And yet without seeing the models of other countries and how they function, isn't that part of being a worldwide citizen is to look at what other people are doing? Maybe well, maybe not. And accept their influence. I mean, we're in relationships. At a country level, and so sometimes I think when we look around, we can see other countries doing things better than we do shouldn't. I thought that shouldn't we impose that on ourselves? To some extent. I don't say and I don't think the US should impose our standards on necessarily other countries, but I think we need to be open as countries to accept influence, hopefully for the good to make our nation better, right? Anyway, that's just that was the thought running through my head. Thank you, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So they’re ruling kind of came down in three. Three kind of categories. One was straight up. You're the asshole. Like, you know you went. You clearly have a grudge against her by calling her thing when it's literally her life and she has to deal with it on a daily basis. You went way too far in the way you chastise her at the end, you know, let's hope that you haven't damaged this friendship beyond repair. Blah blah. So you're the asshole. Was a big group there. There were several people who said no assholes here essentially kind of equate each other out, and that you both kind of made missteps and maybe maybe you could have done better. And then the other one was. Everybody sucks here, and that seemed to have the most traction because it was people reading through the post and going well. He said you talked about this well in advance and she said no, I'm not going to. Do it and then kind of at the 11th hour decided. Yep, I want to do it. And now they don't have any time to figure out an accommodation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's assholes. I call assholes on that. That felt like a consent conversation. You get to change your mind to what? You're consent to what she said. She wanted to go, and then at the last minute back down. Which you. Know like no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I get where they're coming from and respectfully disagree with the Internet on that. Yes, I we do change. Sometimes we change our minds. Sometimes we get to a place, we get to a situation and we change our minds.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Then we shouldn't necessarily like to. To me, the ability to say this is not the decision I came to was a poor decision and I should change. My decision is actually kind of a kind of a good trait. I think people sometimes we get down a path and we've made the decision we've told everyone. OK, we're going to keep. Doing it and. Sometimes, like Super Bad idea and let's. Let's change this up, and especially when traveling to unknown places you've never been before having. Having I really and my family really enjoys traveling, and sometimes we find ourselves. Yeah, I know the thing. It'll work the way you plan on having it work. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to change up your plans. And I think that there's there are opportunities here for. There are opportunities here for, for everyone to kind of do things a bit differently than they did. But I'm not mad at.

Host: Michael:

Her for changing her mind and wanting to wanting to do it or being upset she couldn't. Sure. Well, one of one of the posts that I'm going to read is the perspective of the everybody. Sucks here and mainly this one stuck out because it had been upvoted and commented on so much so it says everybody sucks here, but let me explain. Having a disability sucks big time. I'm disabled and there are so many aspects of life that a disabled person will never get to enjoy. Disabilities don't just mean I can't walk and I'm wheelchair bound. People with service animals get rejected by a lot of places because of their animals. People with PTSD have to endure fireworks and loud noises because holidays happen. People with diabetes can't have real sugar. It sucks. It's not fair. It is what it is. Expecting a wheelchair. Access to a volcano track, however, is a bit madness. It doesn't mean. That she can't want to try to experience that in some way and express the grief and disappointment about that disability and demands on the world do not make her an asshole. It just makes her a human being. The fact that you went off on her makes you a bit of an asshole, though. You really shouldn't be able to do the bobble head and passively. Go along with her beliefs if you really think she's taking her message too far. You know, that's part of being a good friend. It's not able us to say certain things are just not meant for handicap access. It's also not ablest for my town to have two huge fireworks displays a year, even though me and a bunch of other vets get panic attacks from them. It's just part of life. I hate it, but I've accepted it that it's part of my reality. The world may care about a person's disability. However, the world is not required to change and accommodate it at every turn, but that doesn't mean you don't stop asking it to change.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

I thought that was kind. Of interesting you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sharing that one, that is, that is a really thoughtful response by a commenter. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And then the poster responded and he just said this exploded unexpectedly. I've read nearly every comment, even though I didn't respond to all of them. Seems like the general consensus is OK with the general sentiment, but I did a really bad job with the words conveyed, and I've made the situation far worse than it could have been. I knocked on her door. And I apologized about how I said it. I apologize for my language, and using the word should instead of could in the sense that. It would damage local cultural sentiments and natural features to add accessible, hand accessible accessibility services. The way she outlined it, we had a chat, she said. She was sad to miss out on the bigger hike and when she saw us packing for it got really excited and that's what prompted her to change her mind. We're good friends, we're good, we're good now. We're friends for about 8 years and both of us regularly enjoy spirited arguments, but it's not normally about this topic. This is the first time it came up. I'm still learning the ropes about how best to approach this area, and so some of the you’re the asshole comments really helped with that. Thanks everyone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wow, I you know what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Love the attitude. Great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I love it when people. I mean when you can hear people say you're an asshole and go. Yeah. Yeah, that's I. I think that there's like that's one of the like I think personal goals I have to be able to hear negative feedback and go. Yeah. OK. Yeah yeah that's helpful. Because most of the time. When people provide that if their. If they love you and they care about you, if they provide negative feedback, they they do mean it as a as, as as some or they hopefully you have a good relationship mean it is something that they want you to improve on. So you know the sort of loving rebuke can be a really positive and caring thing to do you much more caring than being just being nice. About it or just?

Host: Michael:

Name calling.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's pretty dickish. So I like where this one landed and I like both of those posts here. You read out Michael, especially the person who came to realize. Yeah, I was a dick and apologized and kind of like made it right and that recognition that yeah. It was like huge disappointment when I actually got there I could feel that.

Host: Michael:

Right. Yeah, well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What?

Host: Michael:

Thank you both for an awesome conversation and a glimpse into the collective consciousness of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Life is strange. You really can't make this stuff up. And why would you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So we'll do this again next week and really looking forward to Michael pulling another interesting thing out of the Internet for us to talk about. But stick around, we've got some, we got more.

Host: Michael:

Coming absolutely. Please follow and share very test views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, as they've alluded to, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation. But the seemingly random items in therapist's office and the stories behind those objects.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The conversation.

Kelly Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Gayle, do you have, like a foam apple thing in your office.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do. I have a decorative apple and it's really strange. It sits on the top of. A shelf in. My office, just alone. It's not even a part of a fruit bowl, but I bought it to represent a conversation that I had with my then five year old child. And it's a reminder of this amazing conversation. But it's also a great conversation. Have for adult individuals in my. In my office, when we're talking about cognitive distortions, so the story is that my son was sitting at the table using kindergarten at the time, and he was eating an apple and he said to me, mom, I know that if I hold this apple up here right in front of his face, it looks really, really big. But if I hold it over here, it looks small. And I was like, oh, my gosh, my child is a genius. He understands this idea of perspective. And it was really just from a development point. It was really cool moment to watch him explain to me his world. Right. And I think he's hearing the world through their lenses. Is cool anyway. And so I took a bit further in the conversation than with him. And I said, well, you know, buddy, OK, so two things. One, I treat adults and two, I've always explained to my kids that I'm a feeling doctor, because how do you explain therapist to a 5 year old? So I said to him, you know, buddy, this is something that I teach grown-ups every day and I'm not even kidding you. He looked at me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That guy had three heads. What do you mean you were telling grown-ups something that me is kindergartener knows and understands, like he did not comprehend. I said, well, you know, one of the jobs that I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Have is to help people when they come in my office. Their problems look are right in front of their face. They look really, really big. And if we can just. Suck them over. Here they look smaller and we can see around them and we can see that there are other choices and I use that as an introduction to a conversation about cognitive distortions, because identifying what distortion you're using in a particular instance and negative. Come across right, you can say, oh, I can back up from that now because I can name it and I can sort of see around it and gather, you know, better, more clear evidence. So I use that a. Lot in my cognitive work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not less random than it seemed, huh?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, there’s, there's always a reason. Right. Yeah. Alright, cool. Thank you.

Host: Michael:

That's definitely part of why I love these little conversations. At the end is, you know, there are. There's a reason for everything in your space or it wouldn't be there at some point. So yeah, well, thanks everyone for tuning in tune again next week for another riveting am I the asshole debate looking forward to it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

See you all next week.

Kelly Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.