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Veritas Views: AITA

This weekly podcast comes to you from ⁠Veritas Psychology Partners⁠, ⁠Dr. Dan Kessler⁠ and ⁠Dr. Gayle MacBride⁠. Your host selects a conversation from the internet forums that neither psychologist has heard or read before, and they give their unrehearsed, unvarnished opinions--essentially answering the question, "just who is the a**hole here?" The host brings in feedback from internet commentors to round out the discussion, and we close out each episode with a bonus conversation about ... whatever happens to be on their minds.

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Season 2

Today, Dr. Daniel Kessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride are joined by Dr. Bill Hoekstra. Dr. Hoekstra is a board-certified psychologist and licensed clinician in the state of Minnesota, with over 24 years of experience in clinical psychology. He is PSYPACT authorized to provide psychological care to patients in 42 states,  offering virtual visits for a variety of mental health services. Dr. Hoekstra holds a Diplomate in Behavioral Sleep Medicine (DBSM) and has specialized training in diagnosing and treating sleep disorders such as insomnia, circadian rhythm issues, and shift work-related sleep challenges. His expertise extends to trauma psychology, forensic psychological assessment, and evidence-based therapies including Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). Throughout his career, he has worked in diverse settings, including community mental health clinics, outpatient facilities, and county courts, delivering patient-centered care. Dr. Hoekstra’s practice philosophy emphasizes creating a safe, non-judgmental environment to foster personal growth and help patients achieve their mental health goals. You can find him on his webpage, https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/, and on Instagram @themoodandsleepclinic 

On this episode, the participants mentioned:

 

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining. I'm your host, Michael. I'm joined by our dynamic trio of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride, and of course I'm here with Doctor Daniel Kessler. But we have brought Doctor Bill Hoekstra back. Is. Trained in sleep work as well as trauma, and who knew? He also has a forensic background. You can find him at the Mood and sleep Clinic in his private practice among some of his other interesting pursuits. Welcome, Bill.

Host: Michael:

Thank you.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And again, I’m Dan Kessler. Gayle and I run a Veritas Psychology Partners together. We're really happy that Bill is willing to come back for a second episode, an encore episode, or after our first one. And as I mentioned, near the end of the first one I was like, I was like what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You didn't go run screaming. He didn't go run screaming.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, he didn't, he. I thought, gosh, I go see this guy for therapy. Like this is good. I'm. I'm glad you were willing to come back and endure another episode with us. So thanks so much. Michael, you brought us a problem to resolve.

Host: Michael:

I. Yes, I'm full of problems apparently. Welcome all three of you for any of the newbies out there. First, if you don't know what we're talking about, essentially what I've done is I've gone on the Internet and I found somebody who posted a scenario asking who's the asshole here, and generally the readers help answer those questions. In this case, we have 3 psychologists that are going to weigh in. It's not a professional opinion, it's just kind of like talking through some thoughts and ideas and that kind of thing and. Where the post is specific, I've tried to make a little more discreet. And if you're new, stick around through the end. Always have some kind of bonus conversation. Not sure it'll be this. OK. So the headline this time is, am I the asshole for refusing to give up my dog? For my fiance's allergic daughter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, you've stunned 3 psychologists into silence. That is well chosen conundrum. Thank you, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, these are tough, tough, tough. When there's a, you know without, without hearing anymore, I'm going to go ahead and, you know, jump in because I like to do that. There's so many problems where there isn't necessarily a clear like most of our couple, many of our couples. So those exact conflicts that don't have a absolute right or absolute wrong, although perhaps we're going to hear something that's going to tell us is an absolute right or wrong. Maybe I should like, let's do let's do the problem. Michael, before we, before we render anything further.

Host: Michael:

For sure. Well, here are the details we got. The poster is 34 female and she has a golden retriever. The dog has been with her for seven years and according to her, he's more than a pet. He's family. Her fiance is 37 year old male. Recently moved in with his nine year old daughter Emil, the daughter is severely allergic to dogs, not the take Benadryl kind of your find. Kind of allergy. She actually breaks out in hives and has serious breathing issues. Issues the fiance knew about Max from the beginning and when they were dating, he swore the dog wouldn't be a problem because they didn't live with her at the time. But now that they've moved in, it's a constant issue. The daughter’s allergies flare up. She's here and now the fiance is demanding that she re homes her dog. For the daughters safety, the poster has mentioned a number of different compromises. Keeping the dog out of the stepdaughter's. Constant deep cleaning investing in air purifiers, even boarding the dog part time when the daughter is over. But none is good enough for the fiance he. She needs to put the daughter 1st and get rid of the dog entirely. He also made it clear that if we don't, we might need to rethink the wedding. Told them flat out I'm not re homing the dog. I love all of them, but the dog is family and has been with her long. I'm not dumping them like an old piece of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

The fiance thinks she's being selfish and that she's not ready to be a step mom. His family keeps piling on, saying that she's prioritizing a dog over a child, and now she's the villain. Her phones are split, and so she's coming out saying, is she the asshole here for choosing the dog over the daughter?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So are we. First, are we human? First select the human beings. Don't walk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Man.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. That smacks of so much control and manipulation to me on behalf of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I mean.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Man moving in, who knew she had the dog for so long and knew he had a daughter who was allergic. Unless we're finding out that there's like, a surprise allergy. I don't think that's the case.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think what seems like the surprise in defense of the dad here is that the degree of the daughters allergic reaction like I think this is one of those situations where you don't know how difficult this is until you move in and you go, oh shit, this is. A problem?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I don't think it's the problem of the OPiate home. It was. They clearly they want to move forward with their relationship because they have a wedding day. But this moving in prior to the wedding and then discovering the dog of the problem is not really a problem of. It's a problem of this dad and I presume the dog is only there part time because she's got a biological mother somewhere else or another parent who's taken care of her. Other portion of the time. And I think it's for her biological parents to decide. What is the best option. I mean, what option could be that she only visits during the day or she does spend less time at that house and then I know it's kind of sucking in the dead doesn't give that option. Yeah, there's just a lot of options in demand that someone get rid of a pet seems.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm not comfortable with that, especially because he's the one moving in. I feel like it would be different if we massaged these facts and flipped it around and she and the dog moved into the daddy's house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I feel like that might be. Hey I need you to, you know, to rehome the dog or or move back out but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What's the?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This setup is really problematic, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again, what's the level of the allergy as far as like is this life? Is it just like like a like she gets a little sneezy? Like, what's the what's the?

Host: Michael:

Breathing issues with relationship to it doesn't say life threatening, but it's not something Benadryl is happening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sometimes relationships don't work out for no fault of our own, but because there is. That makes the. Create a basic incompatibility and I'm not sure if the dog is that basic in fits that category or. We certainly see that category in like one person desperately wants to have children and can't imagine life without children and the other person. Would absolutely never want to have. There's not necessarily a compromise. You can't necessarily have kids part time and this is one of those ones where both people are saying this is not a compromise I can. Now the question is like so the Internet started saying and we're kind of saying, well, maybe one of them should.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I don't think one of them necessarily. Should make a compromise on this. I mean you like coming to your point. Maybe this isn't the right relationship for you, because. There are differences. This isn't a right or wrong. I think we're really feeling stumped because I mean, as a person I would really struggle to rehome the dog and the amount of stress that it would cause on this dog in sort of the middle of its life. Suppose it's got, you know, probably another half of its life to go, which is a long time to put. Relationship on hold. So we have some apps absolute non negotiables on the table for. And so to your point, Daniel. The right couple to kind of proceed forward through kind of no fault of their own. What I do think is happening here, that's a little bit problematic and unfortunately it's one of those things that we pick up on a lot of times is this ROM com phenomenon, right. We're not having peaceful, thorough conversations. Kind of slinging out Sol. Batting them away and going fine, you know, and kind of it feels like it's got a bigger sort of drama feel that's going to feel that ROM com as opposed to having a really good, thoughtful conversation about these differences. I suspect that the emotions are high because. Because these two people probably do really love each other and in another world with other circumstances, maybe they'd make a really great couple going forward and they're really stuck on gosh, this feels really big and we don't know how to do this even though we have really. And positive feelings otherwise.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I think part of the piece I was responding to initially was this weight that he was putting on the OP for bearing the burden of the problem. And so rather than looking at it dynamically, it was maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother, maybe blah blah blah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So like for me? Like those are really powerful black and white accusations to throw around so and again what we don't know is what is the development of? It would be hard for me to imagine that he didn't know that there was an allergy on board prior to them deciding to kind of cohabitate, and so Imagine the daughter's been to the house. Before. I just for me that felt really, I don't want to use gaslighting because that's that's a be a little overuse term, but it it felt really unfair that all of them gifted so abruptly. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bill, I'm going to. I'm going to. Sorry, Gayle, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But no, I was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Said Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To say that that's not what I was saying. Were those high emotions like I think we're?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like I think you're not fit to be a stepmom because that was, you know, that that lacks that depth of conversation. I like the way you put it, that bearing an an equal amount of weight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I. I want to rescind what I previously said. Then Bill 'cause, you've convinced me here, 'cause. My first thought is he's not being manipulative. Learned something new. And now he's setting a. But as you remind me of that comment, like maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother yet. Like like and now one of these we don't find out it when people write these. The unfortunate things we don't find out what she said before he said that like, did he say like did did he did? Did she say to him like if you really loved?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You would you would accept my dog. And he said, well, maybe, you know, maybe you're not really, you know, like, was this in the midst of argument? How did it come out? But as an isolated comment, that comment really feels manipulative. You're absolutely right. It feels like. Like if you maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother. And I do want to be the fly on the wall that hears what? What preceded that comment because it might have been equally awful. But that's a pretty awful comment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I also wonder what level of influence the biological mother's having from the sidelines. You know, sometimes you talk about minor characters.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So is she really upset about the exposure here and in service of trying to maintain a long term relationship with someone with whom you are no longer romantically? Attached to right, you know this parenting and they've got a. They've got what, another nine years of having to figure out this. Sometimes a biological parent may take half, feel like they have to take a stand because they're between two people. And it's not just the daughter, but it might be the biological mom. Saying, hey, if you don't da da da da da and she may be pulling some strings on the other side and we just don't know. Right. We just don't know.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can. I'm not saying it does, but you know, if we massage facts, I can see that fitting in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. And we and we do love to massage hacks in these situations because we we don't always have them. I could totally see that. You're bringing our daughter over. Where like our daughter is coming. Our like you're around like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your office, right? That. Gosh, my my former partner is saying these things to me, demanding. That and you know, we even write some of this stuff into divorce decrees.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. So if I shift gears like that was my human. And so like if I shifted to the clinician, so I'll just quickly put on like a professionalism thing like for me, I would be really interested kind of like to your point both of you like, so if we had a stenographer like let's read back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

The language all the way leading up to this moment. I would be really interested in hearing how have other problems been solved by this. Covering kind of get thrown at each other, like what does that history look like?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There there therapy.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Is this a once in a lifetime kind of moment for them, or is this a regular kind of event and to me, just from a communications viewpoint that would make? Really interesting to see how these things flesh out. Sure this. This can't be the first rodeo for both of them to be in a. Like this?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What a wonderful question. A wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I’m mad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How do you resolve?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I asked that and I didn't think about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. How how what is your result? What is your template for resolving the really tough questions. Do you? How do you as a couple navigate those those challenges when you have them in the past and they go unworked on? They get like what that is. That's why I didn't think. That damn that is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As a guest to make it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is why that is probably why.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Three hits.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Three headed monster. Now, I don't know.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

What kind?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of therapy. So. I mean, this one's a tough one to render a verdict. Because there are so many deep emotions, it's quite possible that everyone here is being to some degree reasonable and maybe said some things they shouldn't have said. And this is a really tough problem to work out because you can't both have a dog and not have a dog, and you can't have a dog and not have a dog at the same time. You know, there may have been some really horrible things said on on multiple fronts here that exacerbated this. Some of the solutions that I think OP mentioned just you know, only have the daughter over or some of the like only have the daughter of a partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cleaning and keep cleaning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, only having the daughter of during the day. Like as a parent.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Those are really big concessions, honestly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I can't see myself being like, oh, yeah, I just have my have my kid over for a few hours during the day and not like that wouldn't. That wouldn't go with me as a parent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And rehoming the dog is not an absolute unreasonable. It's just that the OP doesn't want to do it. You know, I certainly have seen situations where people say, OK, I can no longer have this dog in my home. And so my father was gracious enough to take the animal so I can still visit. I still have. Rights as a word of the dog. But you know OP doesn't want to give up that that dog to 10 year. Anyone which then we have to discuss back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Certainly we've all.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

The dollar. I mean, they're almost the same age.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fair. Yeah, it'd be interesting to hear what the relationship between the dog and the daughter is. Just because a child is allergic doesn't mean they don't want to love them and hug them and have them forever. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And certainly we've all worked with people who are grieving the loss of a PAT and we hear this comment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I wonder how his daughters know about this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Heard this comment many times, like not. But they don't have the pet more than their parents. I'm not saying that, but people sometimes say this is harder for me than when I lost a human loved one.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That's right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like like, no, I wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't have chose that, you know, but but but like, like when my parent died, they weren't in my life day in and day out. And they'd been very ill for awhile when but this. But the dog is there every single day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thinking wrongly in the same way the dog was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is like emotionally harder. I've heard people say this is emotionally harder for me. Then then it was when I lost this other loved one. Who's a. So I think it's really, really I wouldn't want to underestimate the power of of a pet that a person is very close to and it's, you know, help them through really tough times. So I've been a constant companion. This one's tough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are we ready to render some verdict or is the verdict there is no verdict?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I just want to say really quickly like so, just as therapists like all three of us know how easy it is to have a problem like this come across. Plate and then we have a. What kind of moment where we?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Look.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

How dare he say that? And so I just so value like both of your opinions kind of just walking back and doing the hard job of seeing the other perspective and just making sure we don't have that initial human response.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Get rid of that guy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, yeah. I mean, you know definitely don't want that in your clinical office, but I you know I and my training and Dan and I've talked about this is it's OK to be a human in therapist's office, like in a human response wouldn't be like you. Take tell the guy to take a hike, but I certainly would be a human.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And go, Oh my gosh. Like, wow, that really.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I you know, I'm. I'm sorry that this has become an issue for you and you know, happy to work on this. But I think my initial surprise and maybe a little bit aghast might come through.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Without telling her what to do for sure. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The level of complexity here is one that I you know I'm I am holding open the possibility that OP is a total asshole and has handled this really badly. I'm holding open the possibility that OP is just has handled this incredibly well. And is doing it perfectly and vice versa like. I don't feel like I can say one way or the other on this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So not enough information for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't feel for me. There's not enough information because because we we just don't know all the conversation that led up to certainly we I can say definitively that that, that, that the this couple is not necessarily working great together on this problem and at least one of. Has said some pretty awful things to the other. I don't know both of them. Not so. There's a problem here, but that problem looks like it sounds like it's a relationship issue, not that someone's an asshole. Although it is quite possible that one of them is and that we just don't have enough information here. Other thoughts?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think the probability of someone sucking here is not 0.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That is true. There's room for growth, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's. That's where my verdict is, yeah.

Host: Michael:

In fact, I would say interestingly, I mean there were different people on the Internet, said various things. But the general consensus was in fact, everybody sucks here. So the Internet was very happy to point a finger at everybody except for the dog and the stepdaughter. They were very clear to those two are out. But this comment basically is kind of the gist of what everybody on the Internet was saying, which is what the shit did you guys think was going to happen?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

You plan out anything at all. Would. Date, let alone get engaged to, let alone let a man move into your. House with a daughter who's severely allergic to your furry family member. Why would he date and get engaged to a woman with a dog while his child is severely allergic? The two of you discuss this how? Why did you just move forward with having that important conversation? All these compromises you mentioned are naive at best. Perhaps delusional. Girl can cannot be around the dog. Period. Are too mutually exclus. Of things same for him thinking that you can. Give up the. Delusional. Pick the dog and learn to think better about who you date and get engaged to. What the shit? shit sake.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm going to render that commenter just. Come on. It's OK that you didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now the thing I agree with is that in these situations, typically you're having a number of overnights, and before you move in, you're very often in this alignment of spending a lot of time at the house that you're moving into. And one would think that the daughter would. And we would have seen this. But I'm not at that level of that, that summer or poster. Think that poster might be overstepping. Just a little.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I'll agree with the whole point of the naivety of didn't you talk about these things already? You know that part resonates with me like communication. So fundamental.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is the other thing that I think about is that sometimes the reality of a thing is so different than the fantasy of the thing. And we, we we like don't know how it's going to be until we're actually. And I and when you add in the early phases of a relationship and the new relationship energy that can cloud our judgement. I can totally see this couple thinking. Work that. We'll work that out like like, like it'll be fine. Love each. It's really terrific in this early phase of relationship. Human beings don't think clearly.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I see that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can do.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Money, faith. Children like you know things, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

See and I think that where these folks may have made the mistake is before the relationship started. For Dad to have in mind, like I can't date someone who has a dog because that would harm like that. That like because he didn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They didn't know the level of the allergy until she's. For a prolonged period of time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. So I'll give him that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

According to the post.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, so now we know for future relationships for him that he should just rule out anyone who you know and I think. And I don't think that's unreasonable to say. You know, I'm like, I just can't date someone who lives with a dog because my kids have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kids allergic and. And I. Could totally see this couple finding themselves in this situation, so I'm going to disagree with the vehemence with which that. That, that, that person responded because like I totally see this happening and people just not realizing that it's that big. Deal. And you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would love to see these two adults, at least one of them has been around the block and A and a well, maybe not. Take that. I'm locked up, but coming backward. Two adults here in their mid to late 30s. I hope you would have enough experience in the world to realize.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We don't have to get married. We can continue in a deeply committed relationship. We can live in separate homes, which will protect the dog. We don't have to get married. Can stay. And you don't like it? You just let me take Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like it. Now I like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And as you say and people. It and it works fine and then once the daughter maybe has left the home and isn't routinely living with them. Then you know, maybe they choose to get. It's not ideal, but it's a way to to move forward in a relationship and keep the relationship without, you know, telling one or the other to take a hike and honoring the daughter's allergy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I think that there I think when people get into seeking a relationship, they're often seeking a partner to share their lives.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With in a deeper way than, no in in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You look like they can do that. They can. Can do continue to do sleepover. Can go to his place.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It didn't share their lives together in a way that they are sharing their lives on on the daily together in the same home.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There are lots of circumstances that prevent that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It. Or, you know, some some other factor that keeps you in separate households for a long period of time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But for we've talked about this in previous podcasts sometimes, like we can say that's a reasonable thing. Someone might say for my relationship that's not something I'm willing to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not willing to. We have a relationship. Part. I want a full time relationship or not or no and that's not an unreasonable thing to say.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

It's a personality match, but that's the thing, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just throwing it out there as an option.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sorry. Go ahead. We over talk to you. Sorry.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh no, that's right. Just. I agree with both of you, but like it has to be a personality match like you can't, obviously. Gayle, I don't hear you prescribing that to this couple. These are. And so like, we just wonder like there's that, that authoritative like shape up or ship out kind of thing that that we think we heard coming from one side to the other and we don't know how. That maybe, but if you know, have they worked through all of the different permutations? If they're important enough to each other, have they considered those? And I appreciate Gayle, what you're saying is, can you work through those and they may have the personalities that this is not it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I think sometimes our job is to bring lots of different creative ideas and then evaluate them, right. And if the client says no, that's really not going to work for me or for my partner.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fine. But at least we've we have created an opportunity to step back from the emotional, you know, shape up our ship out and think, think flexibly about this. Then why this would or wouldn't? What are the costs and the benefits of each of these potential solutions and allowing someone to come to a conclusion? Their own or in this case, hopefully together. Come to an amenable conclusion.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. You hear the echoes of a radical acceptance in their, like, kind of accepting the problem for what it is and learning how flexible given.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Frankly, I was in my. I was thinking of the David Burns work and the CDA stuff that cost benefit analysis.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So yeah, I think we, you know, we're influenced by a lot of therapists and creative ways to think about it. But I think that's our charge is to is to think creatively and us to accept whatever the client decides is best for them. Don't walk in their shoes. We don't live their lives. Don't. You know, we don't really get involved in that way in their relationships. They have to make those decisions for themselves. Can't see the you know an answer that might be really workable right in front of them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With this brought to me a little bit was my previous training many years ago as a family mediator and moving these folks in the mediation where they talk about moving people from from positions to interests that these people have a position both in a position you can't have. Dog and live with me. I have to have the dog and you have to. Have to find the solution so that that's their POS. Taken, but what's their? Well, their interests are are are living together, not harming, not not harming the daughter and not wanting to give up the dog. How do we or not wanting to take the dog out? My life. So is there a using looking at these? Is there a solution that works for not a compromise? But a solution that allows everyone to win, and if there's not, that's when they go. OK, there's not a solution, but to start from that position from to move away from this entrenched position of this has to be the way it is and move towards what can we. What solutions? We find together as a couple as we navigate this and getting back to Bill's question like how do you resolve the differe. Difficult things if they're resolvable.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to disagree. Everyone's fucked here. I don't. I. I don't think I don't think to say if the Internet says everyone sucks here. Don't agree with that, but I'm open to the possibility that that's true.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

More information.

Host: Michael:

Right, yeah. Well, can I throw in one other kind of comment so that it was a smaller contingent, but it did say not the asshole and then this poster kind of encapsulated that idea which was. I agree with. It's time to at which is the fiance's name I came out later in the post. It is time to rethink the. He's not putting his child first over your dog. He is putting his child first over you as a father. Entitled to do that. He is not entitled to do the my way or the Highway act as a partner. You're free to evaluate it. And the life you want in a marriage the other way to look at this is to remove the conflict from. Picture and look at his actions. He moved into your. Now he has unilaterally making demands. Is a red flag. Additional concerns this is. A good look for him either way. Are some other scenarios? A dad who is. So clueless, he has no idea how bad his daughter's allergies are. A dad willing to disrupt his daughter's life by moving in with someone instead of having the OP move in with him and having that new environment be a hazard to her health. And three. A partner willing to put his daughter's well-being at risk just to get his way. None of these are great. The asshole. Not you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't know enough to say that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can feel like you're there. Assumption there a little strong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But it's. But it's also possible. I mean, you know we we've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is there probabilities greater than 0?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. Possibility is greater than 0, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, great.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Really, this is this was. This was one that really, really brought up a lot of great conversation. Appreciate your your bringing this challenge to us.

Host: Michael:

All three of you for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often, you know, Shades of Grey and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And thank you, Bill, for reminding us that we are humans and therapists and both reactants belong in the room at times.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we. We do certainly have those human reactions, and sometimes we govern them and sometimes we use them.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Mm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so I also appreciate that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

And thank you for having. It's just so fun to be in this room and kind of imagine myself as like you guys as my therapist and I just, I so value your opinion. Just it's it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Run.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Amazing to hear. Like other people's ideas bouncing off when it's, you know, you in your own all the time. It's really it's awesome to have a 300 monster, as it were, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, it's a lot of fun. And Michael was asking me a little bit about you. And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I've known Bill long time. Here's my metric. If I went to a conference, I would actively sit next to Bill. The conference. That's always true for everybody. So.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

No, Richard.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I appreciate your professionalism and your. Yeah, it's been great. Thanks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, likewise. Definitely like.

Host: Michael:

Well, please follow and share your test views and the podcast platforms, the neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation will be. On the flip side of the credits?

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So for our bonus conversation, I would like to ask you some this or that questions. They're totally just kind of random things I came up with. Going to ask both Bill and Dan to weigh in. Probably alternate who goes first just. Make sure that Dan also experiences the lovely wait hot spotlight and the urgency of having to answer. All right, Bill, I'm going to go with you first. Or that ping pong or pickleball.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ping pong. I never played pickleball.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I. So I don't know why. Haven't either.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Not just more active.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pick up, then play the golf. Pickelball?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I don't, but I played tennis before, but it just feels more. Ping pong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Well, you should come over sometime. Play ping. I'll see you more active. Especially against our youngest son, boy, he's a boy.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan mountains, or Desert Bill mountains. Why mountains guys?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Hounds. Hounds. Oh yeah, I would say it's it's a, it's a challenge to go up. Like going up things and so it. I love deserts too, but I love the challenge of going. And then seeing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I yeah, I've hiked in both. And it found that. The mountain hike to be. I don't know. You know what his his thing is though.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

This also.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've only ever hiked in a. In a mountainous desert. So. So how about mountainous desert? I have. I have hiked in a mountainous desert before and I really. It was enjoyable, but I like the trees better. There you go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. My next one is acquired by our Intrepid podcast host. Yes, you, Michael, who asked me to propose this one and I thought it was a bit preposterous at first, but I want you to hang with me. Because this or that is, you have to choose to keep one.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

OK, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The. So this or that, do you choose mosquitoes or?

Host: Michael:

Thanks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For both of you. OK, I think that was Michael's the choice too, because they were more avoidable. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, they. And you manage those easier.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You don't. About if you're sitting. You know, if you're sitting on your back deck in the early evening in the summer time, you can avoid the ticks aren't bothering you, right?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Long as you don't get that kind, that gives you the protein problem where you can't eat. Meat anymore like so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's problematic. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Let's. Where are we? At hummus or salsa?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh, there's so many kinds of salsa in humans. I'm going to say hummus.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Yeah, yeah, I love hummus. OK1 more. Oh, Dan, this is. I'm going to serve this one to you. I think I know what Aaron's is going to be. Or Curry spice.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

It's a tie, but curry spice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And again, there's different kinds of Curry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Although they both have, they both have their place though.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We do. Do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. So maybe it's not a Goodyear or they both have their place. I have. I have Curry once every couple of weeks and I have a tire like. Almost every day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On the days you don't have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Curry almost every day. Pretty much, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, thank you for playing. It's fantastic. I told you they were a little bit out there at random, but they're a great way. Kind of get to know us on that human level, absolutely.

Host: Michael:

Always like it. And you know, honestly, the mosquito and tick thing like I was thinking of, you know, the inconveniences of ticks and certainly the problems that go along with them. Mosquitoes are mass murderers. I mean, they kill like a million people a. So, like, fuck those guys like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They do.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

They do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. shit those guys.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They need to go.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks again for joining us, Bill, and thanks everyone for tuning in. In again next week for a whole another episode of the who’s the asshole?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, Dr. Daniel Kessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride are joined by Dr. Bill Hoekstra. Dr. Hoekstra is a board-certified psychologist and licensed clinician in the state of Minnesota, with over 24 years of experience in clinical psychology. He is PSYPACT authorized to provide psychological care to patients in 42 states,  offering virtual visits for a variety of mental health services. Dr. Hoekstra holds a Diplomate in Behavioral Sleep Medicine (DBSM) and has specialized training in diagnosing and treating sleep disorders such as insomnia, circadian rhythm issues, and shift work-related sleep challenges. His expertise extends to trauma psychology, forensic psychological assessment, and evidence-based therapies including Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). Throughout his career, he has worked in diverse settings, including community mental health clinics, outpatient facilities, and county courts, delivering patient-centered care. Dr. Hoekstra’s practice philosophy emphasizes creating a safe, non-judgmental environment to foster personal growth and help patients achieve their mental health goals. You can find him on his webpage, https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/, and on Instagram @themoodandsleepclinic 

Bill, Dan, and Gayle mention a couple different things in this episode:


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

And all right. Thanks for joining us. Your host, Michael. I'm joined by our dynamic today trio of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride. As always, I'm here with Doctor Daniel Kessler, my business partner at Veritas Psychology Partners, and we are thrilled to bring you Doctor Bill Hoekstra. Who is a psychologist who trained at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology? He, like Dan, has a diplomate in behavior sleep. This means he's done a shit ton of extra training in sleep and is really knowledgeable about that. He also does a lot of work around trauma. He's done some EMDR training and some art training which are specific trauma treatments. Bill. Really. We're glad to have you here. Thanks for taking time out to join us today.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Thanks for having me. So appreciate that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Michael, you have a conundrum. A query or something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Problem an issue a thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Problem an issue a thing. The three of us are going to take. Could you maybe give us a little bit of info about what we're what we're talking about?

Host: Michael:

Today for. Well, first of all, welcome everybody for any of the newbies out there who don't know what am I? The asshole is. In short, someone posts a scenario and says. Who's the asshole here? And that's what we're going to hope to figure out. Where there's any identifiable information in the post, we've changed those to be a little more discreet. And if you're new, stick around through the credits and because we always have a bonus conversation. I'm not sure. That'll be about, but we'll find out. Neither Dan nor Bill nor Gill know what I'm going to ask them about today. So let's go. Today's post is usually I try to find ones that have lots of comments. One weirdly doesn't have very much, so I'm hoping we can help them out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think it's important, Michael, that you choose something terribly unpopular so.

Host: Michael:

Have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

More fun? No, absolutely. Let's let's roll.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So the topic is, am I the asshole for wanting my boyfriend to fix his sleep schedule?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That's interesting.

Host: Michael:

And I haven't really seen very many about sleep. So I was like, alright, this one piques my interest so okay, it worked.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It was interesting. Yeah. And since we all work with sleep, this is going to be really interesting.

Host: Michael:

Hopefully and maybe we can give him. Good. So OK, so the poster is female. Her boyfriend, male, both early 20s and they've been together. A little. Two years and right now they're in a long distance situation. They're both students, and so, she says throughout a relationship we both had semi fucked up sleep schedules, but always fixed them right after. Unfortunately not sure exactly what that means, but you guys have probably dealt with some messed up sleep schedules, so maybe you can imagine that she says his sleep schedule deteriorated a lot since. University started, and it's not because he's studying. Doesn't attend most of his classes. And probably will fail his. Interesting. I usually go to sleep between midnight and 1:00 AM and wake up between 9:00 and 10:00 AM. Meanwhile, he goes to sleep at 4:00 to 6:00 AM and wakes up frequently at 4:00 PM only on some days does he wake up between 1:00 and 2:00. To mention when. Do talk. He somehow falls asleep. Feels like I'm dating myself, not him. Time I've tried to intervene.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wait, wait. He falls asleep during a conversation?

Host: Michael:

That's what she says.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. I'm already. I'm. I'm. I'm already like, like, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. You're worried about his sleep schedule. About his like health. Like his. Like he is, he's clearly. Failing across the board at all sorts of things, but, but sleep is obviously one of them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Feels like this is a wormhole, doesn't it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like all right, Michael, finish.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Probably continue, but I was struck by.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Bring, bring this plane in for landing.

Host: Michael:

Yup, there's only one last line, which is each time I ask him to fix his sleep schedule and talk about it. Him. Does for one day and then goes back. The old. Am I the asshole in trying to intervene with his sleep needs?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I know, I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I love it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So you're not worried that she is trying? Only focusing on his sleep schedule and.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, I think that's. Yeah, I feel like that's the thread she's pulling on and there's a massive sweater behind that. And it's really thing that this is like a symptom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

She probably doesn't know that, but I'm just suspecting that this is a symptom of a whole lot of other stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just going to sidetrack us here. You use one of my favorite therapy analogies. There is, which is the sweater thread like you pull on. Sometimes you you find that sweater thread and you give it a little pull and everything just shows up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love that. It's it really is my favorite analogy for what happens. Sometimes in therapy. So that's that's wonderful. So what's the threat behind this? What's the? So the sweater behind it, I'll give our guest first crack at this. I don't want to.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, great question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Tend to jump in and like start talking.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Well, that could be like a huge amount of things like just so like if someone like this was presenting to me professionally, I would probably say, when's your last physical? Tell me about your. Like there's so many things that this could be substance use. Just lack of care of himself or you know what? I'd be really interested in what he's doing in all those hours that he's awake and not sleeping. It's like I feel like there's so much more that needs to be known and what she the OP is saying is the symptom has really got to be the thing that changes. I'm suspecting kind of like the sweater thread thing like that. There's a lot back there and it could go in a lot of different. Maturity. Lot of things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I.

Host: Michael:

I. Try again.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Then we don't know the time zone. We know that they're at a distance, but we don't know that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I do wonder, I feel like we have a big piece of information. Question here what?

Host: Michael:

So she does. Somebody asked her about time zones and no, they are in the same time zone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Host: Michael:

They're in Europe, if that matters.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Backpage. Yeah, from some of the language.

Host: Michael:

And then. Neither of them have jobs that are causing the schedule shift, so she answered those two questions.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would be very concerned about. I would be very concerned about depression here. You know, I'm. I'm really worried about, like, what is going on for this guy. And I've seen we've probably all seen three of us all seen like people in their young 20s who begin to. Struggle with depression or anxiety, and they're not doing all of the things and they end up staying up late. Mate for I don't want to stereotype, but for for young men often gaining and that's so dopaminergic and compelling that they just keep going and going and going and going and going. And the more they do that the more their sleep schedule kind of makes this progression in. More and more delayed fashion. Wake up. They're not tired. They go to bed late. Wake up. They're not tired. They go to bed late. They play a game, it keeps them. Wake and this just marches. Until what I've seen, a number of folks who are in this pattern of 4/5 6:00 AM until mid afternoon.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah, I think my one issue with the girlfriend here is she. She she has a deep misunderstanding and yet has pulled on the right. Right. I mean, she's talking about him fixing his sleep schedule for a day and the three of us know you don't fix the sleep schedule in a day for a day. Right. That's just being maybe adherent to to a a normative schedule, but that's not fixed at all. And so he's clearly struggling to to maintain. Seen that and what she is creating is I think a lot of resistance and anger around. You could just do it if you tried, but as we're sort of suggesting, there's maybe a lot underneath here.

Host: Michael:

Mm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe more depression could. Health issues could be any number of things, and he's just pulling it together for a single day and she's she's really angry at something. Maybe someone out of his control at this point without some professional level of intervention.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Looks like another piece that's just going to build off of that just a little bit is that we don't know all the details. But there's a sense that the boyfriend doesn't have too much interest in we think in changing a sleep pattern so that he is kind of aligned with what she needs. And so I can't imagine dating or being married and falling asleep in the middle of my, you know. And like. Like this is the way it is like. It's really interesting that there seems to be like a built in sense of resistance to this kind of shift.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, we talk about distress and impairment being the criterion for, for fixing a problem. It has to both bother you and impair your functioning. While it may be impairing this guy's functioning, maybe it. Him. And so now what she's seeing is, hey, I'm dating someone and I'm distressed by this and she's not. Now I'm distressed that he's not so.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And she's she's, I, I'm. I keep thinking like she's Opie is focused very much on should I change his sleep schedule? And while the sleep schedule's certainly problematic. Well, one of the we're all we all seem to be in agreement that it is symptomatic of somet. Bigger there is something else here, and she's focused on the sleep. Great, but I like I wanted the post to be something more like I'm really worried about my boyfriend and I'm worried about like. Like he's not doing well in school and he's he's not showing up for things and he seems to be failing at all sorts of things. What can I do to help? Oh, and by the way, as part of that like she seems more focused on, I don't want to be negatively judging her, but like I want to focus on what's going on in his world. What's what's what's his problem? He's something's going on for this dude, dude.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, it may be an indication of how out she really is leaning out of this relationship, but you know, I'm just kind of done. Mean, frankly, if I'm dating a guy and he's falling asleep on me in mid conversation, I would feel like I'm dating myself. Quite frankly, I don't need. In the relationship of, I'm going to be by myself.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I may be leaning out of this and kind of done because he's not motivated to make some healthy changes. I think also I would do remember mid 20s, so she's in a place where her brain hasn't probably finished fully developing. She's going to be a little mean in, in, in egocentric about. Both.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's. That's thank you for the reminder there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So you know, I'm not terribly disturbed from a developmental perspective about how she's kind of handling this. I think it may be an opportunity for her to learn relationship, relationship skills longer term. Yeah, well damn.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So essentially I can track her. Like is this idea of like am I the asshole for telling him to change like we just take out like what she's asking him to do? I think what she's really saying is will you change so that we can work Better Together and the fact that he's apparently not doing that, I would say absolutely. You're not the jerk in the situation because you are asking someone to show up for you in the way. You would like for them to be present and at that age we're trying on relationships left and right and like we all. Right to be able to say this isn't working. And so if he's not going to show up for her that way, I don't think she's in the wrong at all for saying this isn't working for me. Whether he sees that as a deeper issue as. Whole mother issue, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love the way you frame that Bill. We often get caught. Does someone have a right to tell someone else what to do in a relationship?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And while on one hand no. On the other hand, we have a not just a right, but an obligation to tell our partner what we need in a relationship. Just need the same thing as you have to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's more like this is what I need in a relationship. Need someone who's present. If you can't be in a. It works. Then this relationship isn't working for me and we mix that up with being demanding and pushy and manipulative and controlling it. It's. It's just setting a boundary for. This is what I want in a relationship. She's saying I want someone who's awake. Like minimally. I would like someone in a relation. In a relationship with to be awake at some of the time that I am, unless there's something that's preventing them from it, he's. He's saying pretty clearly here. There's nothing preventing him. Others. Then whatever's going on in his world. Needs to get fixed.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

You're saying, like, consciousness is not a not a reach like that is a reasonable expectation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it's not a reach.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is a. It is a minimal part of a relationship that you that I would want any partner. I would want my partner to be, you know, functionally conscious.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say the situation. Right, build up what you're saying. I mean, we made requests and relationships all the time, right? How do you make that? Do you stamp your foot in and insist on it, or do you just say like, hey, this, like you said, I'd like to be conscious for for the time that we spend together that. And that's a. So we don't know how she's addressed this with him, but I think Dan, to your point, it's a fair. And then you know, I think the thing that you see in healthy relationships is what the Gottlieb, John and Julie Gottman talk about in terms of accepting the influence of your partner. There are things that we end up doing in relationships that we. Do ourselves or prioritize ourselves but our? Finds that important. They've made that known and we become willing to engage in that activity or behavior or or even take on some of that perspective and at least respect that perspective. And this guy is not really in any deeper way accepting that influence from her.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe because he's got some other underlying things that he. So then I think, yeah, fair she doesn't have a relationship partner here who's active with her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean, I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And don't read that as you need to leave. No, no, I don't want to be that person on a podcast saying I'm just concerned about his level of engagement.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She's clearly not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't think she's an asshole at all for this, and I know Gayle, by the way. I appreciate your reminding me of the developmental stage. She's in that that in young 20s are still pretty egocentric. The 20 year olds that all think they're fully grown, but they're they're their brains. Know what are we? What is it, 24, 25, 26 before the brain is really there?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so that probably means he's developing too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

His brain was off underdeveloped.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. So you got these two underdeveloped brain humans, and they're trying to work this out. I don't think she's an asshole. At all I. I'm really concerned for for, for him and want to find out what what the sweater is. As Bill has mentioned that that's interfering with his with his, not necessarily interfering with sleep, but interfering with him doing something about it I'm worried about. Young man and what's going on in his world, that that's leading him down a path because you know folks who stay up all night. During the. Who don't have jobs like their likelihood of success in any endeavor is small.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, remember, he's also a student, so he doesn't have a job, but it's not as if he's just unemployed. Sounds like he is a student, but they don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's going to affect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Act so it probably matters.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's going to affect. Yeah, he's going to fail.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, he is going there. And so his relationship is probably the least of his concerns here.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, the backdrop is like the whole wall is crumbling from from what it sounds like. And so like, I think I really appreciate both of what you're saying, like this whole respect. Relationship and like we would just assume like if there's some compatibility between the two of them, what a great way for each of them to lean into the relationship, to listen to her and to take her cues that something's really off to then respect himself and to. Her and look into that and what a great way to build some intimacy between the two of them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Like you know, she can always do the 20 year old thing and say, like, you're just not my type. And then off she goes to another relationship and that would be fair too. But that doesn't give her a. Of connection or ability to work through some. These challenges. Challenges that will for sure come up in other relationships in other ways down the road.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I think the biggest risk to her is feeling unimportant and invalidated. Depending on the kind of issues she brings to this relationship, you know, maybe reinforcing some negative self esteem, self talk and that kind of thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, he could have changed if he really wanted to. Not important enough like that. As 20 year olds, we go down some. Holes with that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I would love to see these guys having some healthy conversations about what this means. So anyway, I think that Michael thought he was bringing us a sleep question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And weirdly enough, like a lot of times, Michael, you actually brought us a relationship question.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, actually that's why I thought it would. Because even though she didn't really get much in the way of comments, you know, and one of the things I really enjoy about doing podcast.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Host: Michael:

Whatever the surface symptom is, there's usually a bigger thing at play and like you all touched on. I mean that is that is definitely the relationship. Also, you know all his other situation in the background, whether it's depression or whatever else is, is causing that drugs and whatever else but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm.

Host: Michael:

I could not help but imagine the Weezer song playing in my head that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right.

Host: Michael:

You know. You want to destroy my sweater? Hold this thread as I walk away.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love. Bill knew it. And Dan and I were like waiting for the lyrics.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you know. I know the sweater song, but it did not pop in my head. Like, I'm like Buddy Holly.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh yeah, yeah. How do you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now I'm of a generation that's “the sweater song” means something entirely different. I will save you from singing it, but I now hear it in my head. I'll go and get the show now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Lately, in the show notes, but league of the show, it's a both of those songs, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Find it.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I so for rendering verdicts here, I think it's up. We all feel like she's not an asshole and we all we all. All I want to and what we've all expressed concern about. Like what's going on for him, what's going on for the relationship. Other thoughts before he pitched it to Michael and see at the. And said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I think we covered them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, Michael, what the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

Well, you really. Two camps on the Internet and again, there weren't very many comments, but I'll say the poster was really active in responding to things. Which is. Often I get these and we don't get any clarification or whatever. But in this case, the two camps were essentially you are the asshole. Out he's an. He needs to do his own thing. Why does this? Which is like anybody who's been in a relationship, you should think you should understand why that. So I was a little concerned about some of those comments. And then the other one was you're definitely not the asshole. Has bigger problems and then that kind of led to this conversation about depression and. The original poster kept saying no, he's not depressed and then people would say sorry to say this, but just because you don't see signs doesn't mean that there isn't an illness. And the one thing I didn't see anybody say was he should probably see a professor. Like you intervening, you intervening as a girlfriend, saying you need to sleep your sleep.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Schedule it's not the same as actually seeing someone who can. With that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and. We all three treat this. Isn't like overnight fixing. This isn't like just change your sleep schedule, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dragged his ass into one of our offices. Be like.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. There's a loom sweater back into place, right? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. We'd be fixing sleep and help. Fix some of it. But we need to rule some stuff out because this is concerning. I think people bringing them in, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I mean, I would want to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think that would be our first reaction to this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I mean, for someone like this and you know, we'd want to sit down with the with this young man. And find out what's going. We'd, we'd get a sleep diary from him. We'd spend time really evaluating his sleep issues and concerns. It's going to take, you know, a month, a couple of months to treat this person. I will say the one thing her where she think may be a little unreasonable is expecting him to just change his sleep schedule because sleep schedules once were locked in with that circadian rhythm. That's a hard shift to make. To change a circadian rhythm. Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In here.

Host: Michael:

So as someone who doesn't get to see the inside of your offices and what you actually do on a day-to-day basis, I'm curious. If somebody came into you and it was like, hey, I have problems with sleep and then as you're talking about sleep, you're like, holy shit, you have so much else going on. What comes first? How do? You unravel that to stick with the sweater analogy. That's.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Really good question, at least for. Like I always defer to the individual on what do they feel like they have? Because the last thing that I want to be doing is trying to change something that is third on their list when there's first on their list and. And even with that list, I'll oftentimes have to say like the, you know, the positives of treating this other thing first are that we don't do this other thing. And for example, sleep if sleep is the last on their list, and I don't know, maybe like losing his. Is first on his list. We'll probably spend some time, but we have to get to the sleep at some point. So we'll talk about pros and cons of how they prioritize. Things, but I always start with what they're willing and able to do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want to say I do the same thing Bill does because it's it's the right answer. At the same time, like I generally find myself leaning into wanting to encourage the person to address the sleep stuff because I see it as like the easiest thing to fix. And the thing that that that the client usually thinks is the hardest thing to fix, but. But it's usually usually the easiest thing to fix, and I then like we can do the sleep work and feather in the other stuff. So that's my personal. I certainly do. If someone's like, no, I don't. Finally, sleep schedule. But I will find I think it I have to pull myself back as a psychologist for being a little pushy about that because I know that's probably the best bang for your buck in. Number of sessions.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, but where is pushy in the line for building motivation for the most impactful treatment, right? 1-2 and three are all really important, but let's imagine for a moment if we reorder that 321, because this does have a lot of bang for buck. If you can get the bills, point that sign on and that agreement reorder it then. Then we've got exactly, you know, kind of Bill's answer. I will say one of the things that I really value as a as a clinician is having a good release of information in place because I want to work with my medical colleagues to start rolling some things out and that I just sell as concurrent work like you. Go to your doctor. Get some conversations like you need to bring this up and we can do some of these things in the meantime. There's no reason that we have to necessarily do them in a sequential order. Can do them concurrently. If they have ruling, if they have motivation.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I was going to say, Dan, I really appreciate your point because. Because we know what is heavy lifting and what is not so heavy to lift in therapy and so patients have no idea oftentimes. And so it is useful. Agree with. I guess I kinda left it out without even thinking about it that I'll usually say. Well, here's something that would probably be relatively efficient for us to do. If you want to talk about saving the girlfriend or if you want to talk about. Cutting back on your drinking, that is an estimated this period of time and here's what's expected. This other thing may be a little faster and quicker for you, but we'll start with whatever you feel is most important. Yeah, I think if we kind of lean in and put. Finger. The scale. Little bit people can guide.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, a little a little bit, but I think I, I find myself overly tempted to put my finger on this gal in a more heavy way than I think it's oh because like because I want to. Just like I love to fix the sleep piece and it is the folk, you know, all the things that people come into therapy often going. I'm anxious and I think you'll be able to help me. I'm depressed and I'm pretty sure you'll be able to help me when they come in and sleep. Like. I have found, and maybe Bill Gale of different had different experiences, but I found an awful lot. I'm here for my sleep, but I don't think this is going to help. Here, because I was told to come in. And there's a lot more of that with sleep because people often feel so hopeless when they're coming in around sleep. Tried everything so far and nothing has helped me. So there's there's a little bit less buy in a lot of times in that initial visit that sleep can that, that the work on sleep. Can be beneficial, absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think part of that is just the information that's available, right? Tried. What in the world could you possibly offer? Let me tell you about cognitive behavioral therapy for. Excuse me. What? Right. And the doctor hasn't heard about it like this is really new information. And so I think they do feel desperate because we don't have a common conversation about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

CBTI cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Talk about. Meds are you on for sleep? You taking melatonin? You know we have those. I know, I know. Stop cringing. You know, and we we don't talk about really efficacious. Treatment for. We focus on these other, you know, sort of. Socially available scripts around sleep and what's effective and not what really the literature pushes on.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, excellent point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, so we have decided she's not an asshole. Not an. The Internet disagreed a bit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no assholes here. I'm going with no assholes here, but I'm. But I'm. I'm worried about their relationship and I'm worried about his both mental and physical health potentially.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can you help me downgrade my data?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think we we we all like we came to a pretty good consensus on this one. That doesn't always the case. You know. Internet have anything else that value to discuss? Michael before we close out?

Host: Michael:

Not really. I mean, that was unfortunately they just didn't have very many comments, which is kind of why I was hoping to give them a boost here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right.

Host: Michael:

Mean it felt like there was a lot to unpack and they left a lot on the table so.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Maybe that's a signal of how hopeless people feel about their sleep like. It's like, you know, it's such a widespread problem.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you all three for another riveting debate. Until a collective conscience of the Internet forums. Morality is often Shades of Grey, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth is stranger than fiction. Thanks for joining us and having this conversation. This was really good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks especially for for Bill, Bill for coming. I will. And I'm I'm not just like, like, like, saying nice things to the to the guest on the show. But like, I gotta say, it's like I heard you talking. Thinking I'd go see that guy because I needed therapy. I'd go see that guy. He seemed to get to the scene to get to that piece. That's like, OK, all right.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

But I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Would. I think you'd get that piece of that. Need to work on pretty quickly. Thank you.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Thank you guys for having me. Is so much fun.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What I love about Bill is a podcast guest is I e-mail them and I think like 20 seconds. He's like I'm. He didn't ask any questions. Was just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Joining us and shit. Oh, I think Michael's the one who says stick around at the bonus conversation. But you know, like follow all that other stuff, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Please follow the share of Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms, with your neighbors and friends, and as always, like Dan said, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation will be.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Listen, as promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Do we have a question for Bill? We alluded to something if not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we, we we do have a question for Bill. I think we done this before.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, you do? OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I admit that I've not read all these books on my bookshelf behind me. Read most of them. Bill, which of the books that you have that you haven't yet read, are you? Thinking, why haven't I read that one? I really need psychologically related or or or completely not like. Is there a book you're going? Should be reading now.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. So National Public Radio just kind of threw it in my face again. Just the other. So there's a book, maybe you guys have heard of it: Grandmother's Hands. Have you heard of that? Resmaa Menakem  is a social worker in the Minneapolis area. I've listened to an extensive interview, I think it was Speaking of Faith. Like if I could just kind of shout out to another program that's out on the Internet and so. It's a gentleman. He's an LCSW African American man who does therapy, and he specializes in trauma work. And his whole book is about intergenerational trauma. And so I won't try to do the book justice to summarize it here, because I have not read it yet. But listening to his interview, just a fascinating view of how. Culturally, in his world view. The traumas of being brought over from the African continent onto the United States continent for the purposes of the pleasure of, you know, white male enslavement. Generally speaking. Has carried an enormous amount of trauma for people who now have very little connection. Aside from history books. You know, we would argue socio economic, you know, displacement in our society, a lot of different things. But personally they don't have that experience. So he talks about. Just a really powerful way how we all care. Are traumas from previous generations that we don't even have, you know, tactile connection to. And I thought that was such a fascinating view that can be applied in a lot of scenarios. And so I've had it on my list for. Over a year now and I'm just ashamed that I haven't had a chance to read it yet and I love the name of the book too. Grandmother's Hands, because it's such a metaphor of, like, all of the cracks and the lines. All of the wear, the calluses that come from another generation, and how we still have connection to it, even though we didn't put those calluses there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I think it's immediately a visual for me. Grandmother’s hands.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks for tuning in. Tune in again next week for a whole other, Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi, I'm Dr. Dan MacBride, and with me today is Dr. Daniel Kessler, clinical psychologist, and my business partner. Welcome, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hey? How you doing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm doing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Monday morning.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: This morning. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Sunday morning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I asked a question, and then I started talking immediately like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Really not what you want in a therapist. Ask a question, then talk over you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Fair enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Fair enough, fair enough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think we're here to answer some questions. Speaking of questions. And, Michael, have you brought us a fascinating question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I bet he has.

Host: Michael: I have one that yeah, I mean this one. This is one that I think will will generate some interesting conversation. So.

Host: Michael: but for any of the newbies out there. If you don't know what we're talking about. Essentially, what I've done is I've gone out onto the Internet and

Host: Michael: Googled for content and found a scenario that somebody has shared, and basically said, This is what happened. Who's the asshole here? And that's ultimately what Dan and Gayle are going to weigh in on, and

Host: Michael: if you're new, stick around through the credits, we always have some kind of bonus conversation. But for now neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this. I haven't shared it with them ahead of time. So let's roll. Today's prompt. Is, am I the asshole for not forcing my child to eat blueberries?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I need more information.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Because, generally speaking, no, but maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm sure there's a twist, because there's a twist question. Seems so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Straightforward, all right, Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's valid.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Give us the twist.

Host: Michael: All right. So this is what we got. My wife gave our 11 year old son some blueberries, but he didn't like them and didn't want to eat them, she insisted they were good, so he reluctantly tried one, but still didn't enjoy them. I thought that was the end of it, and went to the store. When I came back my son was crying because he had been made to eat the remaining blueberries.

Host: Michael: my wife explained it was for his health, but I told my son he could eat another fruit he liked instead, like an apple or strawberries. He immediately agreed, spat out the blueberries, and ate an apple instead.

Host: Michael: This upset my wife, who said I was undermining her authority, and that our son wouldn't learn to eat healthy this way, I argued, it's unfair to force anyone to eat something they dislike, especially since our son does eat plenty of other healthy foods. The situation escalated, and our son tried to de-escalate by eating more blueberries, swallowing them almost whole.

Host: Michael: But the argument continued, I apologize to my son for the conflict, but I stand by my belief that we should respect his preference while ensuring he still eats a balanced diet. Am I the asshole for not making him eat the blueberries.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, so many layers here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, take it away, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, I mean, I mean, we have so many questions to answer. The 1st question is just like, Do you force kids to eat foods they don't like because you. You want them to gain a more broad palate, and we can have that discussion. And then there's that second issue of of how, of of you know? Do we undermine or or contradict our partner?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: With with child rearing questions? And obviously the answer that is, it depends. But, like, you know, is this one of those situations where it's appropriate to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: counterman the edict of of a partner? And then and then, if yes, how is what's the right way to do that, and how to handle this? And then like, how do you handle an argument with your partner in front of your kid in a way that's best managed, so that, you know, because we don't, we can't avoid that forever, because it's not a terrible thing to have arguments in front of kids if you handle it correctly and show them resolution. There's a lot here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just. I'm just like bringing up there. Are there other? Are there other questions for us to answer before we jump into actually trying to answer them?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Are you asking me, or Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm asking you. I'm asking you, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think I think you've hit on the biggies, and maybe we'll come up with something along the way. But let's start with. That's a pretty good list to start with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I think, so, what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Which one do we tackle first? st

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I think maybe forcing a kid to eat something. This is the superficial question of the post right? Which is, I think, a difficult question for parents. You know. You're right. There is some sort of, and I think the posters right. There's some

Dr. Gayle MacBride: hope or expectation. And, child rearing, that you have your kids try a number of foods. If you don't, they end up being, you know, fed on a diet of mac and cheese and dinosaur chicken nuggets, which is not what we want. That's not a healthy and balanced meal. And how do you get that. Well, you set an expectation in your household that you try at least one bite of everything on your plate. You don't have to like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Just have to try it. And my kids, pediatrician used to say that, you know sometimes you have to introduce something as many as a hundred times before they develop the taste buds, and the palate. For this, as we know, taste buds and palates change.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sure, sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Introduction is important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And some well, now, now, what about those who would say that? Well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: the kids aren't going to like the 1st bite, and that they need to eat the food in order to gain a liking for it. And how much

Dr. Daniel Kessler: pressure do we apply? How much is it okay to say, no, you have to eat this, you're saying. As long as they have a bite we're good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of the mind to have the child take a bite.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and if they don't like it, that's okay. It doesn't mean it's never going to appear on the table again, and it doesn't mean it's never going to appear on their plate again.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: One bite will suffice, and I don't think you need to eat a pile of something in a sitting and create a food fight or a dinner fight or a meal fight, and those are miserable for parents right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Those are, those are, those are miserable, for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So so. No, I think i 1 bite, and it can show up a hundred times. I'm I'm fine with that. That was where we landed as parents that we could agree to and felt like it gave our kids the exposure without creating really terrible interactions and power struggles.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What would you say to those parents who said, who would say like, no, they, my kid, won't eat any vegetables, and I feel like. I need to make them eat like this at least a small salad. I need to make them eat. Oh, thank you for that. By the way, I was going to say it looked like you were like like talking from a steam room. For a moment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. The sun came in my in my window a little bit. There.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That was interesting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Enjoyable, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: For those who are not watching on Youtube.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right my window cast a bunch of light in, and then I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But what I mean, what do you? What would you say?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: said, No, I'm going to put food on their plate. They need to eat the food like. I'm not going to give them anything unhealthy or bad for them, and I think that the way for them to learn is to is to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, and they can't, because they need eat salad. They need.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think this is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They have to. They have to choke down their broccoli like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: This borders on some medical advice that I don't want to give. I want to be really careful about my scope.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: fair enough, fair enough, but I think

Dr. Gayle MacBride: you know, I would maybe talk about how do you set a family expectation of just one bite, one bite of a thing that looks like the thing. I get a little hesitant when we disguise vegetables and healthy things in something that doesn't look healthy without having the healthy

Dr. Gayle MacBride: object appearing in its natural state. Right? So, for example, you can buy products with powdered green, mixed green vegetables and those kinds of things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and it looks like chocolate milk. Great! Your kid is now in their brain, drinking chocolate milk, and you're going. Yes, Parent Win, I've got all of these greens in there, and that's wonderful. But the kid doesn't ever associate what this is if they love it right with what's actually in it. So I would want to see a balance. I would want to see a try.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cake doesn't fit and forget.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cake doesn't count, but my husband I make a carrot cake, smoothie, and it's really delicious, and it's got real carrots in it. So I think there are lots of ways.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You could.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Vegetables, but and healthy fruits and healthy foods in general. But it doesn't always have to be

Dr. Gayle MacBride: it doesn't always have to be obvious, you know, if you want to get an amount in a child. But I think

Dr. Gayle MacBride: into the

Dr. Gayle MacBride: the relationship between the child child's brain, seeing this thing is something that's delicious. I would want to see it in its original form. Now, I think I'm also going to depending on the age of the child going to encourage the parent to prepare that differently. You know I've got one kid who really doesn't like roast broccoli. I love to roast broccoli, but it's not that hard to throw some broccolIn a steamer and call it a day, because he will eat steamed broccoli.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Roasted is better.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Roasted is far better. But you know what I'm not about to have that dinner, and I'm serving broccoli tonight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Here's the preferred way. So that I want it. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And in this case I don't want to tell you you're wrong, because I don't think you're wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Differently.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, no, no! I think that if we this is one, I often ask that question like, if we got a hundred psychologists in a room right where would they land? And I think that that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: if we got a hundred child experts, whatever dieticians.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: We should get a child expert on the show.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We should, we should get chunk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Melanie. We did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We do know a few I think if we got 100 I don't think the I don't think the answer would be uniform.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think, I think. And that's what I want to point out, and I would love to hear what our listeners have to say about how they handle this same exact situation with their kids? If they have any, or how they felt when it was handled. Whatever the way their parents handled it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: When they were.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But this is one of those where I'm not going to so much disagree with you as say, I think that there are very valid ways of doing it that are different.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And many would argue for those ways. I don't know that I have the

Dr. Daniel Kessler: strength of feeling about this to make that argument.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I want to say that I don't think your way is necessarily the way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, no, it's the way that that works for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Or for the MacBride family.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right. But you know, I think what doesn't work is the power struggle. We had a guest over for dinner the other night, and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: of a certain age, and his his way was, his experience was, if you didn't like what you were, what was on your plate. Tough luck! You're sitting there till you ate it. And he talked about being at the table past 9 o'clock.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because he wasn't going to eat it. He didn't like it didn't look good, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: What happened? He said, hours

Dr. Gayle MacBride: totally deprived of something, and sent to my room with, you know, hungry and go to bed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That power struggle. I think there may be lots of right ways to handle things, but that power struggle does not seem like that falls into the category. There are. There are lots of wrong ways, I think, to handle this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Alright! Alright!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It leaves a lasting impact.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm not going to argue with that. But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I. I am very interested in hearing what others have to say about that. And I think that there, we'll get some interesting insights from the Internet. We had some other issues here to deal with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, wait a second. Wait a second. I put you on the hook here for a minute. If this parent comes into your office and says, Help me, Dr. Kessler, I don't know what to do. I need my kid to eat vegetables. I feel like a terrible parent here, but I got to do something. How would you help this person navigate this parenting issue?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know that I have a hard and fast rule on this issue. I think it really depends on the parent and the child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We certainly want to foster a strong relationship between parent and child and not create power struggles, and we want to foster a healthy approach to food and diets and such. And I'm uncomfortable with forcing people to eat things at the same time. I'm also uncomfortable with the idea of like, okay, just. I'm not sure that I'm on the same page as you are with. You. Just take a bite, and you're fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because I don't think there's a that you develop the taste for things from that one bite. At the same time. I don't know about the I don't want to get into the struggle. So it's is there another way other than

Dr. Daniel Kessler: okay? If you take a bite, you're off the hook and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: power struggle like, is there a way of influencing the child that doesn't involve a power struggle. How would you feel about the parent who says, if you eat that thing I will give you extra of this. If you eat the broccoli we'll get ice cream after dinner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Now you would. I had parents. There's an argument. Well, we're bribing the kid, but frankly, as much as I love my job.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I only go in because they bribe me to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know I wouldn't. I wouldn't continue doing the work I do, even though I love my work. I wouldn't probably do it if I didn't get paid to. And then we get into the whole issue of is like, if that if you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Ice cream is now compensation. It's currency.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, if you give the child to do this through rewarding them in some way, is that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know now you're not in a power struggle. But is that created? Is that better

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or worse? I you know there's and I'm sure that there are lots of other ways other than rewarding.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: letting them off the hook, after, you know, have letting them have a single bite, letting them just refuse which which you and I are both not on that page. It sounds like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or getting into the power struggle where they're, you know, sitting in front of their their plate for hours on end, like I'm wondering there's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: There's lots.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Creative methods for coping with this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, and to your point. I just want to say, you know, I don't think that if we're going to call it bribery with food is the only way to bribe, I mean the bribery could.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You get to choose the next vegetable? Right? So we have this tonight, and tomorrow, you know, will be your your vegetable of choice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, here's it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So I think we can. I guess that is a food bride. But it's really more about the choice than the food.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But finish this off, and I'll give you a buck. I don't know. Is there something wrong with that? Necessarily like, you know?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I am not so sure. I think that what I'm getting to here is, I think there's a rich variety of ways to handle this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And sometimes it is an independent situation, you know. Is this a is this a sensitivity due to some, you know, autistic spectrum disorder? Is this just a kid?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is the kid a soap taster with cilantro, and it like literally tastes like like eating soap. And I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There's all sorts of things here that are

Dr. Daniel Kessler: that I think defy a hard and fast rule.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But what I'd want to do is talk to the parent about the way they're handling it, what's working and not working.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and try to navigate a path that works for them and their child.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I would want to know if we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: On your path that works for you and your children.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Ask this a little bit. His mom. What's important about the blueberries?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Why, the blueberries.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, it sounds like, Mom, got a little fixed on this. And it sounds like Dad like that, like, we're moving to the next issue like Mom got really fixed on like it has to be blueberries and all the fruit. And Dad got like stepped in there. And how do you think, what do you think about that? Somebody? I know your mom said, Yeah, to eat blueberries. But you know what

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm fine with eating something else.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in my mind, these are very distinct conversations. If I have Mom, I want to understand the insistence on the blueberries. I suspect it comes from antioxidants and superfood, and all of that right? So I'm guessing that's where this is coming from. Side note. When our children were young, we did teach them that blueberries had antioxidants or superfoods, and I remember coaching them to like tell their grandparents about this, and it was, you know, and their little 3 year old voices kind of cute.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But you know, what is it? What's important there for Mom? And is there another way that she can learn to create flexibility around the nutrition needs that she sees appropriate for her family. So that would maybe be the work with Mom and the work with Dad looks different for me. This is a really careful road. You have to walk as as parents.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: because you need to be able to support each other, and yet call each other out when you're wrong. And how do you do that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I certainly don't think that's well done

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in a high conflict way in front of the child, if you can do it in a low conflict way in front of the child.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay? Right? Because I do believe like you, it's okay for children to see conflict and disagreements and differences between 2 parents and watch them work it out. But if you can't do that, and you're really pissed, or you're really worried about that situation going, you know, in some sort of spiral. You maybe need to pull your co-parent aside and say, we need to talk about this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I feel really strongly about this, and do some sort of level of of maybe more intense disagreement separately, because otherwise that kid sees that split and knows which parent they're going to they're going to play. And let me tell you, growing up, I absolutely knew which parent I was. Going to go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Want.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I discovered at an early age that if I said to one of my parents, Don't tell Mom, but or frankly, don't tell dad, but like something about that, like either one of them would be like, Oh, I can't know, and I think maybe they did talk to each other, but it always kept me out of trouble.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just playing them off each other like that. And if my kids are listening, don't do that. But like I have problems with. Because OP. Asked the wrong question.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Didn't say, Am I wrong?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm glad you said it that way, because that was my 1st thought. Is this is the wrong question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. The question is, am I wrong to counter? Am I wrong to override my wife's

Dr. Daniel Kessler: edict to our children in front of them in this way, you know. Yes, and you're going to have a difference of opinion.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I totally see Dad's view is valid. I totally see where Mom's view could be valid. So that's a conversation for them to have

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like outside of the kid's earshot, at least initially.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This is the conversation to him to pull her aside and say, I don't. I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't think this hill we want to die on honey.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, this is a healthy, so important. So I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because right now I'm not behind it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And she might say, No, this is a whole worth dying on. And here's why. And then you have that conversation outside of the kids, because I think that that that we don't need to encourage kids to play parents off each other going to do it, anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I suspect, though this is not the 1st time they've had this issue. It's 11. We've been having food refusal issues for a long time. So this is not a new issue between this couple. I'm nearly certain of it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And how are they handling? Oh, and how do they handle their other conflicts? Parents are going to have conflicts over child rearing, or to get back to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Gottman. 65 plus percent of arguments don't get resolved and won't get resolved. And that's fine. By the way, the Gottman sent out a really terrific email about this exact topic earlier this week. I'm just going to plug there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Nice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Think it's called marriage minute, or something like that. I really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh! Is that the love notes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm not sure which one it is, but it's something in their mailing list that I really like. But they talked about this exact topic like, no matter who you marry, you're choosing a set of irreconcilable conflicts

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like you're going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, my gosh! Wait! Can you say that again? I love that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You're choosing a set of unsolved, unresolvable problems

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or unresolvable conflict. No matter who you marry, you're going to get a set of unresolvable conflicts

Dr. Daniel Kessler: period. And I love the way he put that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or she put that, or they put that or their writers put that, or whoever does the Gottman's email, because because it underscores this idea that this couple may never come to agreement on the right way to handle

Dr. Daniel Kessler: food refusals.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So how do we then navigate that difficult place where I believe that you shouldn't force a kid to eat anything, and you believe that you absolutely should. And we both come from a place of loving and caring and wanting the best for our children, but we don't agree on the right way to do it. How do we come to a place of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: working together.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so I've come to talking with couples about this kind of thing as a template. What is your template for solving your disagreements, your differences of opinions. This isn't right or wrong, this is just a difference, and that template is really important. I talked to a couple years and years and years ago that they were in an irreconcilable, stuck place. But they had experienced child loss

Dr. Gayle MacBride: early in their marriage.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so my question to them is, how did you manage that? That was incredibly difficult. And can we use that template for the incredibly difficult place that you're at right now? And they went?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Huh?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of course we can, because it is remarkable. By the way, when a couple is able to navigate that and stay together, it's a really difficult thing to get through. And so you know, that couple had a template. Yeah, something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think that's important to reach into and think about what that template looks like. And how do you? How do you bid to your partner that, hey? I want to invoke that template here. I want to use that here, and that bid is a little sign or a signal to your your partner that this is now coming in play. We're using some of our communication skills, our relationship skills.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And couples come into our office so often like. Let me explain what the situation and they're looking for. I don't know, Judge Judy, to tell them who's right and who's wrong, and to resolve the conflict. And one of the things we have to spend, we spend a lot of time doing both of us with the couples we work with is this is not necessarily conflict. You're ever going to resolve.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And if you're not going to resolve this conflict, and a whole bunch of other conflicts you have. How do you work together? And I love the idea. I use that word as well the template. What is your template for resolving these conflicts or working together when we're not going to resolve the conflicts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that's and when they can get to that place, it's really amazing. Like, once we get that space of acceptance of. Yeah, we're just not. Going to we're never going to agree on this. We're never. Going to we're never going to see the same about this. And that's okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? I think that's the most important thing is understanding that it's okay. You don't have to have a hundred percent agreement. No, you have to. You do have to have a way of talking with each other about that difference. And in this particular instance, how do we want to ultimately decide and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: make a decision. That maybe is a compromise where each one gets a little bit of a win. Maybe it's a little bit of a give for the other. Where you go. Okay, we're going to do it this way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Always avoid that word.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't like the word compromise.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Both people are losing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I really try to underscore. I know you. You do, too. When you said the word compromise. I saw you kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, oh, cause like I want to if we can get to the place where they both feel like they get something out of it, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But I want to emphasize that it's a decision. And the reality is when you look at game theory, not everybody wins all of the stuff all of the time. In game theory. You do have a loss, and that can be okay. We're not here to win. We're here to make a decision and move forward in a way that is acceptable to the parties involved.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sure, sure. And maybe it's like I don't agree with. I don't agree with the way he wants to do this, but he feels more strongly about this or she. I don't agree with her on this, but she really feels strongly about this. And I'm like, so this one, I'm going to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and we sometimes do that within a relationship. And so again, underscoring, we talk a lot about this. If you've listened to previous episodes, we've certainly heard us talk about this idea that, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: accepting that your partner is going to let you down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know that that your partner is the 100% of couples there are at some point in their relationship disappointed in their partner. I disappoint my wife at time, probably. Well, me me! Never! Because I'm never.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: never! I never make errors. No, we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Any of us believe that? No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: no! One's actually buying that load of Bologna hopefully. She's not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Listening. Also, yeah, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But she doesn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Are you kidding me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Are you back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Ain't kidding me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, she's getting a good laugh out of it right now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: when I hear you say that. And I think about this often in graduate school, the professor that taught my marriage and family work. He disclosed a little bit about how you know they kind of bid to soften in an argument, and he would say, It's almost like we're 2 different people. And it was a nice little reminder

Dr. Gayle MacBride: we we fall under. It's called the Assumption of similarity, right? That our spouse is similar to us. They're going to feel the same way to like the same things, you know. Think about things in the same way. And it's a nice reminder that we are 2 individuals. We are separate human beings. And in relationships. Yeah, we're just. We have. We have to gently remind each other. It's as if we're 2 different people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really love that. And it is something that gets really pushed in popular media. We talk a lot about about ROM-coms and how they paint this a very unrealistic picture. But that's 1 of those ideas that we're going to be on the same page and finishing up other sentences. And it's important to like. See the world in the same way and have the same worldview. And we're just not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not. Going to it's not going to happen. And it's great when we're when there's similarities. But there's also like that. We're not the same people, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's okay. That's what brings us that. I think diversity right? I think it's important to have our views challenged and think about things differently and bounce those things around together. That's what makes us, I think,

Dr. Gayle MacBride: just better people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I gotta say, getting back to our question here. I'm not real happy with the way OP handled this this issue.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of course it's not the blueberry issue.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: In front of the child going. Oh, I know, Mom said, you have to eat these blueberries, but I'm okay. If you do something else, and set the blueberries aside. And I think in that moment I think, Mom, there has has every reason to be pretty pretty annoyed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: With him about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: With her on how she's handled the blueberries. I'm annoyed with him. How he handled her right again to my point that this is not the 1st time this child now is in a role of peacemaker.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm going to fix this between you. I'm going to eat mouthfuls of blueberries, even though I don't like them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really really heartbreaking here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, this this couple has unintentionally triangulated their child into the conflict, and I'm constantly saying the people I'm working with triangles are bad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, if you're triangulating a child in, or you're an adult child who's been triangulated into a conflict between parents like that's a really hard place to be. And that really is doing a disservice to this kiddo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Being caught in the middle of this conflict, where he's the source of the conflict. And kids, you know. Oh, if I did! If I didn't do that. If I'd eaten the blueberries, Mom and Dad wouldn't be arguing. And this is awful. And I just I really feel for this kiddo in this situation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Also blueberries are delicious. I don't know what he's going on like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, some blueberries get all mealy and a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So like those particular blueberries that were no good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They're really maybe just mad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Those deserve to be frozen and put into a smoothie.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Drink a little bit of sugar on them, and like, stir it. Blueberries are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They're they're one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I smell a parenting difference. Don't sugar fruit, it's sweet enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, no! Sometimes blueberries can be a little bit like a just a little bit of sugar in them

Dr. Daniel Kessler: totally, totally, or throw them in a nice pan, throw them in a pan with a little bit of maple syrup and a pinch of salt, and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Down

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and put those up on top of on top of pancakes. Absolutely wonderful, and they stain your teeth blue.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, fun bonus.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Just it's a fun bonus.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, sir.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Fun bonus, so I mean blueberries are delicious. Fresh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thin in smoothie in a compote. They're just they're just terrific dried. They're just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And what goes to show mom had options. We don't have to just eat blueberries unadulterated.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We don't. I think that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Make some different decisions here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And one of the things we can we could even get to here is is when we get stuck as parents, and we get caught in

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I certainly find myself asking myself this question like, Is this the hill I want to die on like? And sometimes the answer is, Yes, this is this is absolutely no. This has to go this way. And sometimes, like, Yeah, I've gotten stuck here in a power struggle. And what's the best way out of this power struggle

Dr. Daniel Kessler: where I don't want to lose the power struggle. But at the same time I don't want to be in the power struggle. And how do I get out of that power struggle? Because it's not helping my child to lose it or win it? Quite frankly, it's helping the child get out of it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, because our greater interest is our relationship with the child and raising good humans.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right? Right? Exactly. So we're we're we're saying here. It sounds like what we're saying is,

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If your question is, am I an asshole for not making my kitty blueberries. But that's not really the question. Am I an asshole for the way I handled this with my wife? You handled it badly?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Is he an asshole, or does he just suck.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Mildly dickish?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: He's he's he handled it poorly, I mean, I think all around this wasn't this wasn't handled great? Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I, you know I don't. I don't know the history, so I'm not ready to bust Mom for for making this the hill she dies on, but maybe she's out of line. I know he's out of line for the way he handled it with, but it sounds like he's out of line rather for the way he handled it with a kiddo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What are your thoughts.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think the parents suck.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm maybe a little bit more intense than you are. I'm sure there's some back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You feel more intensely than I do. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I. But I really think Mom handled the place. She got stuck

Dr. Gayle MacBride: very poorly, and I'm having a hard time imagining a through line where she would be in the right on this. Now that with the caveat of we get these posts, someone has presented a situation from their own perspective, and we don't have Mom's perspective here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: so

Dr. Gayle MacBride: don't know what that is. Perhaps there really is some through line where she was in the right to insist on this. But I really really struggle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Even if the child said, Mom, I promise I'm going to eat the blueberries. I want you to buy them from the grocery store, and she's great. Going to buy the blueberries. I don't like blueberries. You eat blueberries, hey? Dude? You asked for blueberries. You're now not eating the blueberries that's food waste.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Strongly about food waste.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Even. Still, it gets into an issue of consent, right? Which is, I get to change my mind. That sucks. But then you don't ask the child about blueberries. You don't buy the blueberries so like I just, I can't see where Mom doesn't suck at least somewhat. And Dad definitely sucks and painted, and really mostly because he didn't realize the issue that he was really up against. He made the issue about the blueberries

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and is, seemed agnostic to the issue of the of of parenting to co-parenting in the moment he he's completely blind to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay. Michael. Wait.

Host: Michael: And let's not forget the little kid who's enabling their arguments by like trying to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, he's a cat!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, wow!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And go, okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, you're going to if you're going to bust this kid's chops, then someone's phone and.

Host: Michael: Kidding. That part was heartbreaking to me like I could totally picture him like shoving the blueberries in my in his mouth. Going. Everything's fine, everything's fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Arguing. I feel terrible about that, too. What did the Internet say?

Host: Michael: Well, the Internet was not as nuanced in their understanding as the post as you are, which

Host: Michael: I would expect to not be the case they all piled on mom, that Mom was in the wrong. The poster was.

Host: Michael: he took the right stand. And you know, basically in summary, this person's post was probably the this quote probably summarizes it succinctly, which is congrats to your wife on working so hard to fuck up your child's relationship with food, and starting an argument right in front of him, so he can feel wretched and guilty over something that wasn't his fault. For fuck's sake he even tried the blueberries. He's allowed not to like things as any human being is.

Host: Michael: and so they all kind of piled on that angle, saying, You're not the asshole. But they missed

Host: Michael: the big part which I think you're you both, really, you know, spent a lot of time talking about, which is like the way the Dad presented it, and the way the dad handled it wasn't great, either. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know that I entirely disagree with the Internet on on this. I but I do. I do really have. I do really struggle with the way the dad handled this, even if we're going to agree with the Internet

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and agree with with my esteemed colleague, Dr. MacBride, and say, Mom was told a line here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: even if we go there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't like the way Dad handled this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think he handled it. I think he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Started it right like it's Mom's fault because she started dying on this hill. But but we make mistakes as parents, so I wouldn't say it's her fault. I think it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Interaction between the 2 of them. I think we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Full. Yeah, I think there's an opportunity to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to say, Hey, honey, can we talk about something in the like, can we? And then, like, hey? I'm wondering if you think maybe we're like getting like talking. And then and that's a conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like we're grownups here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? Right? No, I agree. So I think, Michael, you said it. Well, the Internet wasn't as nuanced. I think they're missing an important piece here.

Host: Michael: Yeah, so 422 people basically were not the asshole. 35 were everybody sucks here?

Host: Michael: And those people said, You know, like you're right in philosophy. But the argument should have been held privately. You also need to respect your wife's opinions and have a conversation about how to handle this situation before it gets to this kind of part. And for me like this post was a very human

Host: Michael: reminder that, like, regardless of how much you read and prepare, and try to anticipate things that will come up with parenting. You can never cover all the bases. There's always going to be something that you think you're a hundred percent in the right in, and that your partner will be. And then you're like, Oh, wait, we disagree here. Yeah. And then 3 people said that he was the asshole.

Host: Michael: That you know that his approach undermines the wife, that they, as parents, need to be a united front, and that kind of stuff and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hmm.

Host: Michael: Blah blah so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So so only people called him out for his way. He handled this

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but everyone called out, Mom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And in no scenario in the commenters did they say that we can have a productive conversation about a difference in front of the child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's my ideal world massage packs. And we say, Hey, honey.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: this seems really important to you before we continue the conversation with Junior. Can we take a minute so that I can understand your position and just do a little listening while letting the argument. Maybe deescalate a moment and then proceed from there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's there's so many, so many.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Again, we talked talked about a lot, a lot of missed opportunities. But I'm I'm just. I'm

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm getting stuck on the way Dad handled this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: With with Mom and not as mad. But I totally see what the Internet's saying about like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think it was that Michael's fucking up the kids relationship with food, you know, and being stuck in that place myself as a parent like. I want them to do this, but at the same time, like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Where do you draw the line? And I don't. I don't know the good answer to that. That's part of the reason I didn't

Dr. Daniel Kessler: posited quite as strongly as I've come down on many different sides on this issue. So.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Host: Michael: well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just eat your food, or don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Michael, thank you for reminding us of these very human parenting moments. There are common struggles. These parents aren't the only ones who are are kind of trying to make their way through this. Thanks.

Host: Michael: Yeah, please follow and share veritas views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the credits for whatever that bonus conversation is going to be about.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: alright. So I have a question for you for you, Dr. MacBride, you and I have been doing almost entirely or entirely telehealth network since essentially the pandemic began.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And now and now that people are meeting with people in person, we're still doing, was there something that surprised you about working with people, 100%, virtually.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like not like I did like. I didn't expect this thing about working with people virtually that like should really shocked. What was the surprise for you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But they got better.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You are that skeptical.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know we had never done this in a really well, I had never done this. I'll speak for myself, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: The pandemic was clearly coming, and it was one of those. Well, we don't have a choice right? And at the time we naively thought 2 weeks of of whatever disruption home for a month whatever.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but I really

Dr. Gayle MacBride: let me back up from it. So I had been part preparing to pilot a virtual program.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Me too! Me too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I was a little concerned about the dynamics of the rollout, because the primary offer was going to be a virtual appointment over an in person appointment, and I'd never done this, and I really thought that that was going to be a disservice. I thought it was. It was kind of backward in organization, and since it wasn't something over which I had influence to change, I decided to put a pause on my participation of the pilot program

Dr. Gayle MacBride: right? And that was in maybe December of 2019.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know, when I was 90% trained, I had taken.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: December of 2019.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know right. I take it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not doing that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And had all of the you know, all of what I needed established, except I think I didn't have the head, the required headset or something like that. And you know, come

Dr. Gayle MacBride: February early March, I was like, Oh, shit, we're not going to get an option. We're just going to have a thing. And so, you know, I took my computer and my headset, and I went home. And I mean quite frankly, for a while. There I officed out of my son's bedroom, so he'd have to get up in the morning and go to school, and I would. I would sit at a table in front of his closet doors because I didn't have an office space that I could close the door, and, and, you know, reliably use.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so I you know I did that, but I didn't know that I would expect people to get better, and you know we had never done this, and the doubt was, is this as effective over the video screen as it is in our offices? Can we can we do good work this way? I tend to be a cognitive behavioral therapist that works in really relatively brief episodes of care. Right? Here's your treatment plan. This is a treatment. We're going to follow a treatment protocol, and we're done. We're done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and you know, great working with you. I'm sure I'll see you again, you know, somewhere in the future, and I do a lot of that. And I remember feeling incredibly successful the 1st time I was able to, after a protocol of treatment. Go, wow!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You're better, wonderful! Right like it was. It was that validation that I needed, that this was as good as being in person. Now the thing I think I miss the most. When I do, the video is, there is, and you and I both will do this sort of carrot top style, little bit of performative

Dr. Gayle MacBride: to make a point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And that's a little bit lost when you don't have that hands on experience with someone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, if they.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I try to replicate that, but it's never as as robust as when I'm in my office. But yeah, I mean, really, honestly and truly I was impressed and surprised and thrilled to know that doing your work via video was as effective as being in person. That's a long, winded answer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: A long, winded answer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It really was. But I really wanted to kind of piece it out, and why I was so surprised.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you. Alright!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cool.

Host: Michael: Yeah, that's interesting.

Host: Michael: I do remember some of that as well. But anyway, it's interesting to hear you reflect on it now that it's been 4 years. So

Host: Michael: on 5. Yeah, anyway. Thanks everyone for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, they are joined by Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy (she/her). She is a licensed psychologist, an AASECT-certified sex therapist, and a certified emotionally focused couples therapist. She specializes in sexual health and relationships and owns her own private practice in Minnesota. She is the co-author of the book, Desire: An Inclusive Guide to Navigating Libido Differences in Relationships (https://amzn.to/4fTtXMg). You can find her at her webpage, https://drlaurenfogel.com/, and on Instagram and Facebook @drlaurenfogelmersy

In this episode Dr. Gayle MacBride mentioned the show "Heart Stopper", (2022) so here's a link for that: ⁠https://www.netflix.com/title/81059939⁠ 


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our trio of psychologists again today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. I'm thrilled to be back here with my business partner, Daniel. Kessler and also Doctor Lauren Fogel Mersy has decided to join us for another episode. She is an ASECT certified. I going to tell you, by the way, that always sounds looks sex to me, so it's such an absolutely named organization is a sex therapy group, which with which you get certified to do actual sex therapy. Work and so Doctor Lauren Fogel Mersy is a specialist in that as well as certified in emotionally focused couples work. Welcome again. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really appreciate you joining us for like a bonus podcast you had originally agreed to do 1 and after the first one I'm sending. It's just so much fun that you decided to come back and do a second podcast with us. So thank you so much, Lauren.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Oh, it's always fun to talk. To you both and you as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, you got. Ohh boy. Michael, you got something for us, right?

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome. All three of you. But first off, for the newbies out there, if you don't know what am I an asshole is, in short, someone's posted a scenario on line and asked readers who's the asshole here. That's. Hopefully we'll determine today, or at least weigh in on. I guess I should say when there are any kind of identifiable information on the post. We've changed those to be a little more discreet. And if you're new, you should stick around, because we always have some kind of bonus conversation. So today's topic is, am I the asshole for telling my boyfriend to stop eating so much? This starts off one of my very favorite ways, which is acknowledging this is such a stupid fight, honestly. But Internet do your thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And as we know, because we all do couples work. People almost always come in and saying, you know, tell us that they fought over the stupidest things. I mean, yes, we fight over big things, but usually I find people just absolutely falling apart over something that was just a tiny little Pebble in the shoe and we just lose it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But it's, it's almost always about we step back about this. The thing has been building and this this insult is emblematic of some major issue in the. Relationship. We get caught up on the thing instead of talking about the problem that underlies it or is that your experience with, with, with couples, or what? What I mean, how do you react when people come to you and say?

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is the dumbest thing ever.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah. I mean I like validate, right? Like we could be arguing about cheese. Like, it really doesn't matter what The thing is because it's usually about something deeper. Like we're saying, you know, the Gottmans who are a couple therapy and researcher experts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MHM, MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Talk about how the number one thing that couples fight about is nothing, but really what they're talking about is it could be anything. It's not really nothing it's anything because it's really about something deeper and usually that's something deeper, is more of a core relational or attachment need that they need to know that I matter to you and I'm important to you. And I'm a priority and you can.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There and those are interwoven into these content conversations. Yeah, I love that. The way you said that. I also love the statistics. The statistic rather, that comes out of the group that says 69% of all conflicts will never get solved. Like we're not here to all. But we're here to talk about it. We're here to be emotional together and supportive and validating and those things. And This is why these little Pebble. Issues keep coming up is because we have these. What Scotland is called perpetual issues and they rear up in different ways through different activities and tasks and. And episodes in our life. And so we're not always looking to solve it so much as just be caring and supportive partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And that message a couple sometimes like, but we can't resolve this issue. Yes, and that's pretty normal to not like that's not necessarily the goal. The goal is to build the relationship and to develop a. The connection around these things and then the, the, the, the. If your goal is to solve the problem or resolve the argument and figure out who's right, you're probably not going to succeed most of the time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, always tell people that the goblins are love. Optimists, right? They think almost any relationship can work. There's a couple caveats to that, but this is not a doom and gloom statistic. This is coming from a group that really believes in long term loving partnering relationships. So you know that's just keeping helping doors dose of normal here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But we got off track.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

That's fine with statistics vary. I was just going to say I find this statistic to be very hopeful in that, you know, a lot of people will take it as like, Oh my gosh, we'll never solve anything and we'll be stuck and we'll be unhappy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

No, it really means that I mean, a lot of people will second guess their relationships. Am I with the right person? Are we compatible? Should we be together? This means that across the board, no matter who you're partnered with, you're going to have a set of challenges. The question is, which challenges are you willing to grapple with over time? Yeah. And we just want to make sure that the ones you're grappling with. They're not non negotiable things for you where you have a complete like I cannot live with this kind of scenario then that's that's a different story, right? If it's a non negotiable usually what we're grappling with is negotiable things. They could be flexible, they could be things that we actually do have. Have the ability to kind of tumble with over the years. But this question is really interesting, right? I mean, the automatic response that both of you had was like, yeah, this is just a tender topic, right? What somebody's eating, how much they're eating. I would be so curious. What is the concern behind the food intake? Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So we should probably based on that look. Into the restaurant there. And jump in with books and covers. Lauren has definitely brought us back to what we're supposed to be doing. Here. Thank you.

Host: Michael:

And this is one where intellect has beaten switch, but it like goes in a direction I didn't expect from reading the caption. So. So here's the rest of it. And it's fairly short. But it says during my undergrad, my parents covered my grocery bills to support my health. They never set a limit on how much food I could buy, but I. Always stayed for a goal. With about $200 per month now in grad school, they're generously helping again, which lets me focus on rent and loans without stress. I still plan meals carefully to respect the generosity, though I'm female 25, the problem is my boyfriend, 27, eats almost everything in my kitchen when he's over snacks, frozen meals, meat, even half eaten cheese. This is forces me to spend my own money because I don't want to increase the grocery bill when my parents are covering. And it's wrecking my budget, we've argued. He's saying my parents are paying anyway, so I shouldn't worry. And I eat at his place too, but not nearly as much. I think he's being inconsiderate. He leaves nothing but vegetables and couldn't and could eat less or could stand to. Eat less. I've banned him from cooking and taking raw ingredients and now limit what he can eat when he visits. After the third time he stopped talking to me. I think this feels petty, but am I wrong here? Who's the asshole? Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, she's got a little bit of a. Streak of of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Stuck with that? Yeah. I don't like how. She's going about it. She's she's made her her bones unknown, but then she's banning him and she's coming in with some harsh judgments about about, you know, he could stand to eat less. So let me be clear. I don't like the boyfriend's behavior. I think he's being disrespectful.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like I'm not going to let. Her off Scott free. So I don't take that with what you will. We're here to debate.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

This is this is taking a turn that I.

Speaker

Hi.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Didn't foresee, right? I thought at first this was going to be about like the consumption and something about bodies or vanity or anxieties or something in that nature, and this is really this is a. Valid concern to bring up, right? I'm on a budget. You're coming to my home. Home I am trying to stick to a budget and I am trying to be respectful. Both of you know my parents helping me in this in this way and being very thoughtful about how much I spend and what I spend my money on. And you're coming to my place. And so this is really a conversation around. Requests and boundaries and limit and respect.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. I. Here's a situation where in my home with my money, with the things I've purchased like I have the right to make decisions around that, I have the right to make to make choices around what I'm willing to provide and not provide for a guest in my home or a partner or boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever. And and to say like this is. This is my financial situation and this is what I've chosen to do in my home and. Whether she's being reasonable or unreasonable, and I think she's being reasonable. But whether she's being reasonable or unreasonable, she's setting a boundary for herself. Like this is where, like, she's not telling you she she kind of bait and switches. You're right, Lauren, she because it really isn't about her telling him what not to do. It's what her telling him, what she is willing to accept.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

What you. You at my house with the food that I have purchased and that you are welcome to enter into my space. And here's how you're welcome to conduct yourself in my space.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

That's right. I think this is a really important conversation for a couple to have, right, that this is my home, your home. Who pays for what? How do we distribute things? And, you know, conversations around what feels fair and equitable. And I think, Gayle, you're right that there's so much room for. How do you have this conversation right? So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If I'm thinking.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

It's not just like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

4 horsemen here. Uh-huh. Yeah, I think how you set a boundary matter.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

You can do this and just can't do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think you know, we think we gave us our forgottens earlier. You know, I think we, Dan you and I often acknowledged that we don't know actually how this information was delivered to the relational partner. And there is a little bit in this post that makes me very much concerned that we have some criticism, some contempt and certainly. And stonewalling. You can't, right and then to and like, I don't. I'm not letting him off the hook. I don't like his response. I really think he is not slowing down to listen to what's underneath the concern. They certainly have different ways to think about the support that she's receiving from her parents.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But we also have to acknowledge that these are often written to put a poster in a better light and I am very suspicious that what came out and what was intended or what we what we're sort of supporting is a healthy boundary setting. We're not the same thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Here. Yeah, I'm going to I. I heard it totally differently.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I heard her saying this is what I heard. OK, now she wrote it potentially the way people often pretend their own side of the story. But like I hear. Like what I heard is like I talked to him about it. I tried to get him to do it differently. We had the conversation. He argued back around when your parents are paying for it anyway, by the way, they're her parents and they're not choosing to pay for his food. They're choosing to pay for their daughters food. So he's like crossing their boundaries, too, by the way. Alright, so so like. Well, I heard more from this is not so much her her. Breaking some rules and being unkind. About it, I heard. Her exasperated and frustrated with like, I tried to do it the right way. And you're not listening to me, and you're still doing it your way. Anyway, and I heard like I heard anger there from from, from that and I didn't. I'm I'm still like, I'm letting her out. Holy Scott free here.

Speaker

Yep.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not at all. Because then she comes back around and she says and he could stand to eat less anyway. You know what she is angry and she is justified. A condescending comment. It's not OK, she commented on the on his weight and shape and took it as a dish. I don't like it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. OK, fine.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, she did mention the vegetables too. He only leaves the vegetables, which, by the way, is fine with me because that laid a lot of. Close I'm. I'm still I'm. I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So there is an. Underlying dig here and she is angry and I get it. And I think she's using it to justify sort of unproductive comments, which probably fall into I'm really angry. I've I've set this boundary, I've said something repeatedly to someone that I love and care about, and now I'm really frustrated and upset. And sometimes we get to a place where we justify. And a really unproductive comment, or I only yelled at you because, like, we start to then. Marshall, some maybe not for helpful data points to to justify our own not great behavior afterwards. So I think that maybe started an. OK place but I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Think addressed it. You're moving me a little bit on this, but I want to hear. I want to hear what if, if, if Lauren can resolve? The dispute between you and I on this.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I like her. Oh my gosh. What we're hearing is that we're missing a lot of information, and I think without that information, it's really hard to weigh in on, you know, who's out of bounds and who's inappropriate here. If I had this person in my office or this couple in my office, there would be a lot of things that I would want to know, right? How have these boundaries and requests been delivered? How have they been received? What does that conversation actually sound like and look like? And have we had conversations about not just the surface level you're eating? You know, a lot of my groceries. And that's not leaving with me, with a lot leftover and how I like to respect my parents gift in helping me with this. I would love to see or hear if there have been some more vulnerable conversations around us, right? This is really uncomfortable for me. I'm feeling disrespected, I'm feeling misunderstood or not heard. This is the dilemma this puts me in and I would really love to hear what the boyfriend. Is feeling and thinking and expressing around this. Where are you coming from? Because that's what's misunderstood here, right? It looks on the surface like he's being really disrespectful. He's just callous towards the parents. I want to understand a little bit more. Where are you coming? From Sir. You know what is what is your perspective on this? What is your, you know, position? What feelings come up for you? Because if it's just your parents pay, you're my girlfriend. I get to come over and just do. What I care to do, these may be some bigger conversation. For the relationship, right? Like if you are sharing really clearly this is my, you know comfort this is my request. This is my boundary. This is my home. This is how I value money and gifts that are given to me from my parents. And if those conversations turn into, I mean if it really is the cut and dry like you're my girlfriend, your parents pay. I don't care. I'm going to do what I want at. Your place those.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

May be bigger conversations for the relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That would be problematic for for or the. Will you eat food at my place like right then? We're back to fairness and equity, and how do we perceive that we share our respective resources as a couple? Like what does that look like and and do we feel comfortable with how we have divvied that up? I mean, not just because one individual and a couple perceives inequitable, sort of split doesn't mean the other one does. And.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Build on time for negotiation because both parties have to feel good that we don't get to get one person saying I think the line is here and this and because this is the way I see it done, that's just it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so often when we see things from our perspective, we really do believe that we're being fair and equitable. And when we're not and there's great sociological research around the tragedy of the Commons and all that other stuff that link in the show notes on that, like old media, start typing and looking.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM. OK, I love the line of. You know, they think they're right. Like starting from that point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Couple if they were to be in the office of a therapist, like I going to tell you, I going to break it to you. He. Thinks he's right. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We need to listen to at least better understand where he thinks he's right here and and and. Yeah, lean into that.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I need to know so much more. Yeah, coming from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This would be a. This would be a terrific conversation. I guess It it, it almost has to be about this plus other aspects of the relationship. And when couples do come to us, we're yeah, we're dealing with the argument that came up most recently, but then we have the opportunity. We to to talk about like how how else does this occur and what is this really all about and not what it's really about? But what what, what does this mean to you and how what kind of conversations interactions are you having over time? Are you feeling respected in the relationship? Are you feeling nurtured in the relationship, are you feeling cared for? Do you feel like like you're getting your like you're getting your needs? Once met, they were they were connecting with each other and where we failing each other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I just had a massage fax version of this. As you were saying it, Dan. So here's my massage. In Graduate School they're dating. He's maybe also in school and on a really shoestring budget, but maybe I told you the flashback, he does not have. The financial support and resources like she does from her family and so he's really enjoying how her parents are taking care of her and providing food and. So maybe he's leaning into that and feeling kind of cared for in that food budget in a way that doesn't get and that he's, you know, working some pizza pizza job to, to kind of make his his food budget. And so he's not a I'm hoping he's not a caring and disrespectful or uncaring and disrespectful person, but rather enjoying this support that. Someone else's family has has been able to.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Give, which is exactly why it's so important to hear, you know, both of these angles, right. And it's so easy. And I think, you know, in the world of social media and even in the world of individual therapy, right. As as a therapist. It's so easy for us to just hear one perspective. That perspective makes sense. You know, it's like here's where I'm coming from. Here's what's happening. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And it paints a picture of the other person on the surface and on the outside. And yet we're missing data, right. We often do things, say things feel things that makes sense. Within our context, and until we understand the context, it's so easy to just jump to a conclusion, right? You're just being a jerk. You're disrespectful. You're but Gayle, you're bringing in nuance and a perspective and a point that could say, hey, I don't have a budget like yours. And I have some scarcity that comes up when I'm around. And so I'm just kind of leaning into sort of this abundance when I'm with you, where there's food access that I don't have at home or whatever the situation may be. But until we hear more of that and until they can talk like that with each other, we're going to continue to misunderstand. What's really happening and what's below the surface? So my first question, if they were together in my office, would be what happens when you try? To talk about those, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like when when working with I work with both couples and individuals and I really love to lean into Julia and John Gottman's idea of assuming positive intent. And like, let's assume that your partner, let's let's just start from your partners, not an. asshole. Just assume that and if you're because if because if you you know if you assume they're an asshole and they're not. It's a very like way worse than if you assume they're not, and it turns out they. But let's assume that your partner is not an asshole because you're choosing to be with them. What? Using gales words? You're going to massage the fact like, what are the possible other reasons why they could be doing this and really getting the person to explore? Getting the couple to explore? What are the other possible motivations other than the negative assumption you've made about? Your partner. And we've talked about a few of the two of you have talked about a few. Of those already here, but I'm sure there are. Many possibilities that we haven't even thought of and and and really get them to explore within that assumption that your partner is a caring, loving person who is not a jerk cause they are an asshole. You're that then we'll there's no point in having this discussion like be done with it. But like like we're going to assume that you going to be together and they're not. So what? What what are the? Nations. But what? What could it be? That's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Horrible. And I think that it's really easy here for someone in the posters friend group to say like red flag on the play. Get out of there, he's, you know, and then just. Shut it down. But what?

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

That's just so easy to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What? Yeah. What could happen out of some really good couples therapy, even if they don't stay together in the long? Run. They are now learning about their own patterns and how they can contribute to issues within the relationship. And so even if they get the opportunity to learn, hey, in this, this is how I contribute. Maybe I can do something different than the future relationships. So sometimes couples therapy isn't necessarily. Our goal is not necessarily to keep them together or break them up. Sometimes it's really to just kind of clarify these processes so that we can be good humans in this or a future relationships.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And in a situation like. This it is very easy to jump on. She's right. He's wrong. Black and white. Red flags, all of this kind of thing, which is really, I think, a tragedy in that we're missing so much and we might be bypassing some really great opportunities for relational growth and that so many things do fall within. You know, healthy sort of relationship experience. Experiences and one of the things that we're maybe assuming is that she shared a lot about her perspective and tried to get him to see where she's coming from. I would love to know if this person has also asked and got curious about him, right. Where are you? So here's where I'm coming from. Here's how I feel and think about this. Where are you coming from? How do you think and feel about this?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

What it's really about for you because until we can do both, we're missing information and that information can be really critical in terms of where we go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

From here, Michael, I'm curious, what do we get from the comments, really clarifying information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's a. The Internet will likely not have these new ones perspective.

Host: Michael:

I was sitting here listening to you guys and that is exactly what I was going to say. I was like, This is why you go. To therapy and not to the Internet because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a great no, no. Exactly because I think this is so often people like all of my friends said this or I talked to so and so or I or I asked am I the asshole. And they said for sure. And I love what you said there, Lauren about like. Like it is so easy to jump to just just, just, just just leave it more. This is a red flag. Or, hey, this is terrible. And and and to some degree, you know, I feel a little bit of a guilty responsibility for like joining in with some of that with what we're doing even. But what we're trying to do here hopefully is is do that ask people to do that deeper dive. As we massage the facts a little bit, not because we're changing the scenario because there are so many possibilities here, there's so much beyond what what people just did that initial surface level. And if we can really dive into it, we can make a lot more sense.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

However, we're here to find out what. The Internet said. Right now.

Host: Michael:

And they very much said you're not the asshole for all the reasons you guys said, you know it is. It is your house, it is your food is your budget is your parent. It's your relationship with your parents. It's all those things, the problem then is for for the most part they started going down this line of saying that he's a narcissist. Do you need to leave him and all. This stuff. And so they're. You know, with all these things, like, you know, red flags, he's entitled to your food and in in possessions, that's a problem. He's entitled to your parents finances. I don't think so. Yeah, he doesn't care that he leaves little for you. Like he hasn't apologized. He's a greedy asshole. So and so on. But I will say my very favorite, even though it ends up being kind of a harsh comment about narcissism, it started with Yikes. On bikes.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

This is such a great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Example of one of the challenges with the Internet. Right as humans, we are really pulled towards a negativity bias and assuming negative intent and seeing things very black and white and this plays out in spades on the Internet. And it can actually be quite dangerous, right when you have everyone dogpile and to, like, leave him red flags tossing around diagnostic terms, right. It can be really easy to go in the direction of, oh, you know, I'm with the wrong person and, you know, everybody agrees with me. But I go back to something Gayle said. Right. You started to share a possibility. Right. What if this is somebody who has food insecurity? Maybe he's struggling. Maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And when you hear that and if any of. That could be true. That really could sway the conversation. The decision making, the empathy, the understanding and bringing it to a totally different, you know, conversation and scenario. So that is something that is so hard to find online. And I like to just really remind people, right. It's not as black and white. There's a lot of Gray and nuance, and there's a lot of missing information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Even when we bring people into, even when people come into our office. And we have we have, you know, 50 minutes sometimes to explore and we're still not getting the full story. You know, we're we're spending a lot more time than the OPS 2 paragraphs and then the argument about it, obviously. But there is, there's just so much opportunity to have deeper conversation. And I appreciate that, Lauren, that warning cause so often people, you know, we we do want to and I'm guilty it's myself make make that quick decision about the person with without without diving deeper into it and assuming that that.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They don't want to be a, a, a dick about it. So there's something to this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That was like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Usually something really vulnerable there.

Host: Michael:

Mm-hmm. I like going into the comments and seeing the ones that have been downvoted to the point that they have disappeared because sometimes they're super harsh or sometimes they're at this comment, which is whoa, whoa, no need to diagnose someone over the Internet because of 1 issue. All of your comments are based on one problem. You're making this whole point out of nothing because your boyfriend isn't a narcissist. Like you are not qualified to to label them as such, seek therapy now. That comment, unfortunately, was plummeted into oblivion because it did not fit the norm that everybody was happy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So quick to call out narcissist and shout narcissist on on the Internet. Honestly, I sometimes even see therapists do that when they with a post and say I need, you know help I need there. I need someone to take this client because they're they're spouses struggling with. Narcissistic abuse or something like that. It's like, but if you're seeing them in individual therapy, we don't have a full picture. No, that's not all calls for those kinds of referrals. But, you know, I think we feel really free to talk about that narcissism more of these days. And I think we're really prone to using it very quickly and.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Often inaccurately. I think this is the downside to therapy, making its way into social media is that we've really, you know, watered down a lot of complexity and human behavior and relationships, which are all so nuanced and complex, right? And Dan, you were saying at some point earlier about, you know, if there's a show on TV, right. I talked about this too, right? Healthy communication is not that entertaining, and nuance is not the flavor of the week and having balance and Gray and asking questions. Is not as quick baby and not as invogue as jumping to conclusions, raising red flags. You know, throwing around diagnostic labels. So I think this is something that we are all being called to keep in mind and to do. Better is to really not weigh in like I'm so careful. Even here, I don't want to weigh in on one person scenario. I've I've never met, who I've missing data on. Like. That's dangerous. Yeah, in some ways. And the Internet is getting, so it's rampant with these, like, you know, quick. You know, debates and leave him and this and that. I would just be so I would be so sad if someone. Went on the Internet, grabbed the you know sum total of what everybody saying and made some like flash decision without more information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right I about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we're prone to this just because it hits that that dopamine button, it hits a high reward button when we when we do these black and white kinds of of assignments here and click baity headlines and that.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And I appreciate what you offer. There is some back and forth like well have we considered this? And what about this? And what about that which really shows that there's so much more to the conversation? Yes and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And and we're we're, we're we're happy to sometimes make snap judgments, but then we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You should walk them backwards.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do want to die. Yeah, we, we, we we're like yes no. And then I then I then I walk around. It could be and and you know you you bring a point here that like, good, good therapy the, the reason there isn't like actual therapy in in television for the most part is like good therapy isn't all that exciting and interesting to watch like even the even like there's a the couples therapy show. Like it's it's. It's like it's like 1030 minute episodes that are 4 different couples and they've like, they've grabbed snippets of it along the way. And they're interesting enough. But like, if you actually watch therapy in real time. It it, wouldn't it? Wouldn't be all that exciting because there's an awful lot of diving into things deeper and having conversations and looking for, for for opportunities to connect with each other and be vulnerable and and and to move away from some of the some of the sort of stuff that is really fascinating. And as you say, Lauren, click Beatty. On the Internet that that really doesn't mesh with with what good psychotherapy looks. Like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Good therapists are not telling you to stay or leave a relationship. How to conduct yourself in a relationship like those are decisions you get to make for yourself. And I would never. Or take over that decision, or assume that I know more than the person who's in it. My job is to help them explore their needs and their boundaries and what they want, and find ways to communicate that. But yeah, no therapists should be telling you to leave your relationship for some of these big, like, life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Right. Vision and we get asked. Sometimes people say should should I should I stay? Should I? Should I leave them or should I stay the relationship and like I am never going to answer? That question for you that is.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

So they don't have the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Answer right. Exactly. Yeah. There's no way I can answer that question for you, but we can explore this.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I'm not in it. I'm not you. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We can explore that. What's your feeling? What you're thinking? What's going on? Get into this deeper. But like that question. No.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And it's not because we're withholding an answer like I have the answer and I'm just not going to share it with you. It's because I don't. I don't know what it's like to be you. I don't know your values might be different. Your limits might be different. What you're looking for is different. You have to decide that. But I can help journey alongside you to figure that out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, anything else from our comments or?

Host: Michael:

I was going to. I was going to add one other thing. So, I mean, my favorite are usually the diversions from the comments. So, so much of it was OK and narcissist leave him red flags, blah, blah, all that stuff. And then then there was this thread of $200 a month for a single person in groceries. Tell us some of the things that you do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nonsense.

Host: Michael:

Like, how do you keep your budget to $200.00 and what kind of meals do you make? And so then there was like. Wonderful outpouring people on the Internet and like looking at like, well, yeah, because really like, there was a recent study in 2024 that just said, like a single person average budget for groceries is somewhere between 2:50 and 4:30 a month. Like you're really doing a great job. What kind of things are you doing? And she's like, well, I shop at ALDI and I eat a lot of rice and beans and fresh vegetables. And so they're like recipes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you know, to someone who follows an almost entirely vegan diet, it's actually it's not. It's not that hard to to to keep the keep the meal budget low. I can see $200 a month for one person. Yeah, I can totally. See that right? So. So so I like this side. Sidetrack conversation. I do want to roll rollback to this idea of. Of of people making the snap diagnosis, you know, I saw on social media this and this. I have ADHD. I saw on social media this and this. My husband is a narcissist or my my girlfriend has borderline personality disorder or I'm I know I'm bipolar. Can you can you can you get me to the right. And it's like, hold on a second here. Like, there's a lot of good information out there. And there's also, like, anyone can say anything and and and put it. Out there and you know, a medical professional, a psychological professional has gone to the 22nd or 23rd grade to learn some of this stuff. You're not going to the, the, the as informative. Theater. It can be that 45 second TikTok. Well, it might sound exactly like your partner. There's a lot more there. Like, let's dive deeper into this. And and and and not call anyone of this or that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, looks like they know someone who's not in the room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Yeah. And I've said the people ask me was my partner of this. Like I've never met your partner. Right? No. You know, I have no idea if they are not the behavior you're describing may be problematic. That's this reason, or good for this reason. But I also don't know the context of that behavior, and I don't know what actually happened. Like so often, people say my partner said this and it's like, well, what did? What happened before that, you know? And what happened before that and before that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And what happened to the 15 years before that? Like there's a lot of what happened before that here when people just bring in and and this this scenario is is, is, is is potentially one of those like what happened before that and there's a lot more to discuss here. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And I think in general, people aren't willing to put themselves in a bad light, you know? So the version that you get on the Internet is definitely the best version of themselves. Often. But anyway, thank you all three for another riveting debate into a glimpse into the collective conscious Internet forums. As always, as we pointed out a number of times, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And as Lauren said, conversation is not necessarily the flavor of the week. But you know what? There's some damn good flavors out there. Butter pecan being one of them. Well, it's not. Maybe the most popular flavor these days, our goodies. So let's keep conversation alive. Keep talking to your partners and assume positive intent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Assume positive intent.

Host: Michael:

And please follow and share veritest views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and. And as always. Stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation, OK?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. So last year, last season rather we started to experiment with some this is that sort of lightning round. So I have this is that question for for Lauren and Dan today I want you to stop and think about it. I just want you to answer and then if you want to explain, I'm going to ask you to kind of keep. It really quick. And brief right, I want to sort. Top of top of mind. They have really maybe a little to do with psychotherapy or psychology, so this is that. Lauren Gates are skis. Skis Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Neither. I don't want to reduce the friction. The level of friction between me and the ground should never be reduced.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

1. No, this is not. I know you well enough to know that that is. Not entirely true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now that it's entirely it is picking the king. I refuse to hand. Fine. Fine, fine. Skis, skis, skis.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, no, no. How many guys? How many bicycles are in? Your house. OK, thank.

Speaker

You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, this is that Dan Bango or Banksy huge. Come on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, Banksy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Lauren. I can agree I like that. OK, Lauren, I don't. I don't know if you've played this before or not, but there there are two popular games. Cards Against Humanity or telestrations. I don't know. The second one. So I'm going to go with Cards Against Humanity. Telestrations, telestrations. Dan, you want to describe the game.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's it's. It's like a game of telephone with both drawings.

Speaker

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So you should go out.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Ohh Cards Against Humanity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh no yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Politicians, it's a lot of fun.

Host: Michael:

If.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If your drawings are shitty, look mine are. It's even better alright.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So yeah, the game is you, you get a, you get a prompt and you draw it, and then the next person guesses what it is, and then they draw based on your guest. And so it goes back and forth between description and draw. And then the bigger the Group A little bit.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Or like Pictionary?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Kind of, yeah. And then very quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I stand by my choice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. If you stand by your answer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it's fantastic. I really doesn't.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Think it really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Speaks to my sense of humor and the sex therapist to me, and also the like. Very youthful part of me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love it, OK? And I'm going to hand it to my audience a little bit. I forget who I left off the left. And so Lauren beans all.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Right. Oh, that's hard. I know. I like both. And they go together. I'm going to say beans just because, like, as I'm getting older, I find protein to be really an important energy source. So let's go with beans.

Speaker 1

Fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Beans, but preferably together, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, of course. Because he goes so well together. That's why I forked. That's why it was the first choice.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that's my 5 bit to that. Thank you very much for playing along.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thanks so much. Thanks everyone for tuning in. TuneIn again next week for a whole another a my lasso debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, they are joined by Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy (she/her). She is a licensed psychologist, an AASECT-certified sex therapist, and a certified emotionally focused couples therapist. She specializes in sexual health and relationships and owns her own private practice in Minnesota. She is the co-author of the book, Desire: An Inclusive Guide to Navigating Libido Differences in Relationships (https://amzn.to/4fTtXMg). You can find her at her webpage, https://drlaurenfogel.com/, and on Instagram and Facebook @drlaurenfogelmersy

In this episode Dr. Gayle MacBride mentioned the show "Heart Stopper", (2022) so here's a link for that: ⁠https://www.netflix.com/title/81059939⁠ 


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic trio of psychologists today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. And with me, as always, is Dan Kessler, my business partner. And our very special edition is Doctor Lauren Fogel. Mersy. She is a licensed psychologist who is ASEC certified, which means she's a sex therapist and she is certified in emotionally focused couples therapy. One we are so excited to have you here little bit of fan girl. She is also the co-author of one of those. Amazing books called Desire, an inclusive guide to navigating libido differences in relationships. Welcome, Lauren.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Excited to have you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this is really. And I was telling Lauren before we began recording. She's like, oh, your book is behind me. I'm like, yeah, because I use it a lot with the folks with the couples I'm working with, though, and. And as I mentioned, we're not. Because, like your colleague, but because it's just a really good text on the topic or I didn't say, say text. It's a good book. On the topic. Text makes sound like it's hard to read.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know it. It's not. It's not. I read it. And I told Lauren at one point. I heard her. Voice like it has. And her, like her. I don't know how you did that, cause you have a writing partner here who is is a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Contributor and you guys worked so well together to create. This familiar just kind of compelling voice throughout the book, so it's not a text, it is a read, but it certainly fill the hole out there in the literature for people who don't understand desire and discrepancies and how to be inclusive about that and be supportive in your relationship. So not the book not plugging should we so appreciate that so much and it's.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Thank you so much. Funny cuz you'll say you know it has my voice and others say it has Jennifer's voice, so I think it's kind of a blend, which is what we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't know Jennifer very well. So we.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I know, I know, I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Your voice.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, yeah. Depending on who you know, you can sort of hear us hopefully in the in the topic and in the rating.

Speaker

Hello.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, it definitely comes through. It has a warmth to it. So I appreciate you writing that and you guys working on that. So we should we.

Speaker

I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Should talk about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I'm so happy that you're joining us here to figure out who's the asshole. So Michael, do you have a give a question or a prompt for for? The three of us today.

Host: Michael:

I do. And you know, I always try to find something that I. Think will strike. Either of you as interesting or cause some kind of interesting conversation. It was an interesting challenge to find one for. Three of you. But I think I found I found. One will do the trick, but for any of the newbies out there who. Don't know what this is. Am am I the asshole? Really a method of putting a scenario out into the world and saying a reality check of like, hey, who is the asshole here and was that me? Sometimes it is. So when there's been any kind of identifiable information we usually try to make it a little more discreet and you should also know if you're new stick around through the credits. We always have some kind of. In this conversation. But so far, Lauren, Gayle, Dan know nothing about what I'm going to throw them away. I'm so. Let's roll this. Is what we got today. The topic is. Am I the asshole for putting the kibosh on my son's naked vacation?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just going to go with yes right away. I'm going to judge a book by its cover. But but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sort of hoping this one is like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Three, I would think this. I would think that this is an adult son. I would think this is an adult son. Alright, Michael, please tell us. Tell us the rest of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Probably an adult, but you know.

Host: Michael:

So this is the case where.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The story please.

Host: Michael:

Sure, sure. And this is the case where the apostrophe actually comes after the S, so there's two sons involved. But I'll. I'll read the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, she said.

Host: Michael:

So this is this is what we got, and there's a little bit of setup, but stick with me. I think it's all worthwhile. So I'm a very proud father of two boys, 18 and 19, who will be completing their freshman and sophomore years in college. This spring, they're doing great in school, excellent grades, despite both being on athletic teams and lots of extracurriculars as a reward for them doing so well, I've told them I would pay for a vacation during spring break in a few months, anywhere they'd like to go within reason. Now this becomes a sticking point. Later on, the Internet wants to know what that conversation. Looked like and exactly how clear he. With the within reasons with the code, no, he doesn't clarify that unfortunately, but OK. So then the boys wanted to go to an all inclusive resort in Jamaica. Apparently a whole bunch of their friends from school have the same idea, and they're doing a big fun group trip. I love Jamaica. Then several times myself, but I started over hearing details that gave me pause.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Within reason, yeah.

Host: Michael:

The resort they want to go to is literally called hedonism. It has everything you'd want in a resort as far as activities and such, but the whole place is closing. Optional and some of the places like one of the beaches and a couple of pools actually are required to be nude and they have things like play rooms and happening huts and one can only imagine what goes on there. There are theme nights like naughty nurses and fetish leather and lingerie. I gave a hard note to that. I want to reward them, but I'm not going to fund what sounds. Like nothing short of an orgy, they're not impressed with my decision. Not in the least. So am I the asshole for backing out of funding their vacation that I promised.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, this is this. This is nuance I've got so many. I've got a yes and. A no in my head.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I can. Certainly I. I mean, I don't want to. I don't want to ever choose to place my ethics over someone else's ethics. That's, you know, at the same time it It's my money and I can choose what to do with my money. So I'm not necessarily I don't know the right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's. It's a bit of a struggle. Lauren, do you have?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, Lauren. What? What? What? What? What? I something like we're on zoom here. If you're listening in a non video format, we like we saw some like ohh. I saw some.

Speaker

Interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Lauren, what's behind the? What's behind the looks?

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah. You know, I think this is like, so many ethical dilemmas. So when you go to school to become a psychologist, you do a lot of ethical debates and you get thrown, you know, situations and scenarios much like this one, right where it's like, there's nuance, there's maybe not a clear answer. You could maybe argue several different points, and I think. That that's true. At least for me, I find that in clinical practice, things are not always so black and white. Right. And so it makes so much sense that this is challenging and to your point, Dan, like we're not going to tell somebody what their values should be or what is OK for them to spend their own money on. But I think I can see definitely both sides to this right. One is these are young people who. You know, being thrust into a very highly sexualized. Mario might be challenging for them to navigate as very young people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You said that so well you really. Celebrate being being thrusted in. This is being difficulty navigating a highly sexualized atmosphere. That's that's well stated.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, I think or something you know. Like 1819 years old, that that's a lot to sort of figure out and you may not sort of know how to do that very well at that age and there may be a lot of impulsivity that can come. In a scenario like that 1818 years.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

1890. How you say?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No 18 year old young men. Yeah, impulsive. The hell you. Say, right? Right. But I you know. Just getting into some of the nitty gritty here, like the typical age range at a resort like hedonism is. Is not 1819 is my understanding.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I would assume that it's a bit older. Yes. I would also assume because a lot of 18 and 19 year olds can't afford that for themselves, right? So this is a scenario where a parent is footing the bill. So yeah, they might be, you know, an an anomaly or outlier in terms of age range.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, look like. I think they I think I think they good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that Dad is is not just maybe judging the scenario but also feeling maybe a bit protective. I mean if I were a parent and I understood even principles around enthusiastic consents like do these 18 and 19 year olds have? Enough skills to. Sort of navigate that. Now we're bringing in this idea. Of some older individuals who, you know, maybe can't afford this kind of research themselves, but whether or not these. Teenagers can really do what they need to do and wrap themselves around that in a kind of higher pressure environment. We're on vacation well with friends. We're supposed to be doing all of these wild things, like there can be some implicit sort of pressure or coercion that could happen here, and they maybe are a. Bit at risk.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this sort of. Oh, go ahead, Lauren. Yeah, the pot.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Oh, I was just going to say, yeah, absolutely. That there's definitely a a sense of protectiveness that I would assume is inherent in this dilemma, right, that you're the parent. And if you fund the trip knowing what they're going to be doing, that may be, you know, giving the impression that you can donor consent to what they might be doing, and you don't know for certain, you know, all that's going to be involved in what they're doing. You have an idea maybe of what they're doing, but there may be consequences to some of the choices that they make. That they may not be fully aware of. So the other thing that I think of the other sort of side of the coin is this is such an opportunity for conversation between parents and children. For conversations around consent and safe sex practices, and like giving thought to how they want to operate in these relational spaces and sexual spaces, and what would it be like if you were to go to something like this and what kind of choices would you want to be mindful of and what would be? You know what are you going for? What are your goals? What? You know, what do you want to be thoughtful of in terms of how to respect other people? I mean, there's just such an opportunity for really good sexual health and education conversation here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. I'm imagining like, if this is a group of people going, and that's what that sounds like, not just the. They brought the brothers, but alsome of their friends, like they're not all going to be in the same space and I could totally see this pressure, this feeling, this pressure, to engage in practices you didn't feel comfortable with. To to they're giving consent to going, but the actual being in a place is sometimes quite a bit different than we imagine it's going to be. I'm. I'm also trying to imagine, like, like in my head and. And Full disclosure, I've never been to hedonism, but. Just imagine. Yeah. Yeah. OK.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yes. Yeah, you never know where life. Will take you, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know what? Yeah, she is spot on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're. You're right. You're right. Yeah, I. I just I envision. It being sort of a a couples atmosphere and I envision sort of sort of couples that are not 1819, but couples that are somewhat older, you know 30-40, fifty range. And I'm trying to imagine this like group of spring breaking 18 year olds showing up at this resort like I think they may envision this like one thing and find out that it's a whole bunch of older couples going. What are you doing here? Well, I maybe I'm just totally projecting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then the resort staff have to deal with this, I'm sure often right, these things showing up with this idea of hedonism, right, as opposed to keeping a safe and respectful environment for sexual activity and, you know, and maybe exploring and playing and those kinds of things that are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe not what that resort staff want to be doing because 1819 year olds. Can be kind. Of difficult to manage and then you put alcohol on board if, because I'm assuming that this kind of resort has that kind of thing available. And boy, that's just going to be that feels like a nightmare scenario really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. I'm just not. I'm not envisioning this as being like what they think it's going to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, not at all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't envision the resort being super stoked about them being about them, like showing up and like I have, but then I have no idea. I just like I'm I'm projecting a lot of my preconceived notions having never having never been.

Host: Michael:

So I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, you say?

Host: Michael:

Looked I looked it up really quick because I was curious. The average age is 40 to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

60 So that's right. You know you can afford it. So then we're back to this idea of within reason, right. Or you know, that offers to pay for a vacation. This isn't the vacation he wanted for them and has some reservations. And he wants to back out. He wants to say, OK, I don't want to pay for this.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is not. This is not what I had in mind. So we're really concerned obviously about the safety and the well-being of these boys going to this environment. But is that an apple for backing out and, you know, I think we kind of touched on it earlier, you know, Dad offered to pay for this, but at the end of the day, I do think it's dad's money. I have a parallel, but not nearly the scenario is when you know. Our children, you know, we give them or we have offered to buy things, you know, at different times because. They're children, child. And there have been times where it's like, yeah, no, I'm. I'm actually not buying another Lego set. Like, I can't even tell you how many pounds of Legos exist in our home. I don't need more. So. No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hi.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I will buy you something, but I'm not buying that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, so In Full disclosure, I have an 18 year old be 19 next year and. I won't get into my thoughts about what I would do if you would suggest to this, but it's an it's it's certainly an. An interesting thing to ponder as a parent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Parent do you fund a trip to an expense of all inclusive out of the country, regardless of nudity and sexual activity, or is that just the no go because it's really expensive? That's not what I meant when I was thinking about a trip, you know, maybe backpacking through Spain, you know, but kind of a little bit on the cheaper or Portugal or something like that as opposed to gosh. Sending you to an all inclusive resort, which I sort of imagine is maybe on. The spend to your side. Right. Do we take that piece of it out? Or right? Because what we're trying to sort through is the confound of our judgments and concerns about that kind of resort from the extent.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think what would? Be so cool. Is regardless of whether this parent chooses to support the plan or not, and to use this as an opportunity either way. To have some conversations with these young boys and to maybe even talk through the decision if the decision is, you know, I'm not comfortable with that, I would want to encourage that parent to maybe share a little bit more about the thinking behind. Right. Like here's my concerns. Here's what I'm thinking about. Here's what I want for you. Here's what I don't want for you. Here's where I'm feeling protective of you. The other thing that I would be really mindful of is what kind of message is being sent around sexuality.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

So I think there's a way to both say I'm not comfortable sending you on this trip and that's not because sexuality is bad or wrong. That's not because exploring is, you know, not being. Encouraged, but it may be because this is not the demographic place for you. This is a place that I think there's too much stimuli all at once, and it might be overload and overwhelming to you as a young person and where I don't know that you're developmentally ready to make all of these decisions at once. And so I don't feel comfortable. With that, which is different than you know, I want to shut down sexuality. I want to shut down exploration and I want to send you a message that, you know, sex is bad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or wrong? Yeah. One of the things that comes up a lot in this podcast, Lauren, is this idea. That so many of the interpersonal conflicts we have are resolved with a with a good conversation, and so often it comes up. And I joked that every almost every ROM com would be like spoiled by a good conversation 10 minutes into her of him goes Oh yeah, and acts like a grown up and makes a good decision and makes a better decision. And then you know, roll credits. And this is I, I love your description that. This is a. A perfect opportunity to sit down and have that nuanced conversation. No, I'm. Not putting the. My Bosh, or judging your sexuality. But I am making a choice about, about, about and I am talking with you about your, about my concerns around where you are developmentally and all that I love that conversation and I think that those of us who are parents who are listening have had hopefully had these conversations with your kids. They're they're like sitting down and having, recognizing the nuance. In in much of. This yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I know historically we have not done a really great job of creating open environments to have these conversations. And I think as a parent looking at at least public school sex education, it's appallingly limited. So I really think that we have to do. A better job. Hire children to be have these open conversations even if your kid is telling. You, my gosh. Mom, you're so crazy.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because if you don't, where can they have those conversations? Lead me actually to to a question. Have either of you seen?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The show heart stopper. No it. No, it is OK. It's a really interesting show. And Dan, your voice is in my head so much as I was watching this. It's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sorry to hear that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, no. High school kids in the UK navigating relationships and attraction and sexual identity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And at every turn I expected this to be that typical sort of like ROM com. We didn't have the conversation formula and I they they created the show almost maybe to the extreme other end where these kids have, like thoughtful conversations. And when they say, hey, I was kind of butt hurt about this thing like they don't. Sit on it and let it faster and then have like some sort of side off like active storyline, they just come back and say I. Was about heard. About the thing. And then how really interesting. That's horrible. It really is a it was. It was a well done show that I really enjoyed. So if you haven't. And you're interested in having these kinds of conversations. And I think maybe even helping raise these parents. I'm not sure how they raised emotionally matured children to have these kind of sexual conversations because they were a little bit in some, in some cases, a bit repressed themselves. But I thought it was a good model and I would love for children not there to be able to talk to each other. Children, I mean, they're like. 151718 years old. Yes. Good. Not like children.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Children, Kilburn, Kilburn.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not having emotionally mature conversations about sexual activity and intimacy and consent, and I mean even to the level of just, may I kiss you. Which. Which was really really. Great. So a little bit of a plug for the show because it dovetails into a little bit of here what we're talking about in terms of youth and decision around sexual activity and what's OK and what's not OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I've got a curious Lauren getting back to the original question here, would you be willing to render a verdict on? Dad, is he the asshole? If I put you on the spot here.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I don't think he's an asshole for setting a boundary based on his concerns. I think he has a right to do that because it is like we said, his money. It's also his children and he is the adult in the room, right? So I don't think that makes him an asshole. I think it is a nuanced conversation and I think. I mean what he's offering is very kind, right, and very considerate to say, hey, go. Go on the trip.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yep, I do get to, you know, sort of say yes and no to the final verdict of what you want to do. And I think there can be some really good parenting opportunity in this. I think it would be he would be remiss to just do, I think what old school parenting would do is just say no. And then that's the end of the conversation and. We're done. But such an opportunity, like we're saying here to sit down and actually talk through the decision, talk through the concerns. Maybe you can ask some questions of these young boys about, you know, have you considered how would consent look? How would the sex practices look? How would you deal with feeling? Any pressure or coercion from your peers? From what's going on around you, how would you stick to your values or your boundaries in an environment that maybe is pushing the limit? Such great opportunities for really active, thoughtful, intentional parenting? So I don't think that's an asshole thing to say. Hey, I'm not comfortable with this and to just be really clear, it's not because I think this place is a bad place. It's not because I don't want you to explore. It's not because I'm trying to put restraints on your sexuality, but I also think you're not in a place yet where you can handle that much happening.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

All at once. Yeah. And I also don't think it's maybe the right place for you being 19 with a bunch of 40 year olds.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. First off, learn. You've totally convinced me that this is the correct answer. And on top of that like I. Want to say to these these these. These these young men like you do realize that they're all going to be like all the everyone there is going to be your mom and dad, your, your mom and Ice Age. Right? Like, like, that's what you're like. Like, it's not like it's going to be all like old. Folks like us like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Do not realize what they're actually signing up for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They have this probably fantasy world in their head of what it's going to be like and. Like it's not going to be like that for. Them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I see this conversation that you've modeled learned, which is so beautiful, and I look good. My 1819 year old had on and I'm like, yeah, I'm not buying it. Like, did you just won't allow me to go like, I think there could be there could be some pushback. But ultimately I think, Lauren, what you're saying is there are no assholes here because I also.

Speaker

It's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really nice, yeah.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think it's normal at 18 and 19 to want to push for this kind of thing. I want to do it. That's what they're doing. It sounds really fun. I'm. I'm not happy that you are telling me no to this because you know this dad has had a lifetime of telling his kids. No, don't XYZ because it's dangerous and they're going. Yeah, but it sounds like fun. So I see the.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Back here, I think the boys may still think Dad's an asshole, but I think at the end of the day I don't. I think that we are in agreement. There are really no assholes here, even if the kids push, the kids are pushing because.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Kids push. They don't have to like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, they're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's no, they absolutely don't have to. You're right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, there, there, there. This is one of those very rare situations where there just are no assholes here. I totally get the 1819 year olds and their their the thoughts they have in their head and the lack of clarity. Around, around thoughts and understanding sexuality in this greater level, I totally get dads like my money and I don't feel comfortable with this like I and I get that as you said, Gayle that like totally see the kids pushing back some and saying but you said and you know what I, they're no assholes here. So Michael, what did the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Well, the Internet's always fun. I. I thoroughly enjoy their feedback because, you know, sometimes they they pile on and sometimes they go unpredictable ways. And then this time, like it took some interesting turns. So for instance. Several people hypothesized that this was a promotional post for hedonism. They're like this is your only post. He's like, it's a throwaway account, and like there was, like, this whole argument about whether or not they were promoting resort. And anyway, so that was kind of funny. Other people criticized him for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh.

Host: Michael:

The way he wrote his post, he used like bold and italics, and they're like that, you know, that's a dick move and he's like, I just learned how to do this. And so like he, he weirdly, like, responded to those kind of things but did not respond to other questions that people asked. Which was like, where's Mom? In the equation or other parent like, are you a single parent? Like, what's the situation? What's that conversation like? Why are they not involved and he didn't respond to? Any of that. But for the most part, people came on the side of you're not the asshole. You guys said it's it's your money. You know what's best for your children, even though they are adults. You know, you should definitely have a. Yeah, I mean, the right on that cost.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ish. Adult-ish adult. 18 like you're legally an adult when you're 18, but you you have yet to develop the ability to really project yourself into the future and understand consequences of actions. So while you can buy a car and vote and do all. Do all of the adult things the brain like. It's not the adult brain until like, what is it 232425 in there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sick, I think in males actually.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

These guys are 8 more years of brain development.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Look in males. Maybe, maybe 80.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, 80.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. Eat. I'll say meal, though. You're really giving us too much credit. If you say 26, but there's a reality here that that they're that they're that they are not like Lauren. You referred to them a number of times as as boys. And I refer to them as men. And to be perfectly like I want to kind of roll back and say no they don't. Have fully developed adult brains and I think I think boys may be a more accurate word to use.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

You're right on the cusp, right? So like, isn't it legally? You know, they are. They are men. They are boys. They're sort of in between. And you know, even though they're at a place where they could, let's say, fund a trip like this themselves and figure out a way to go, and they would be within their right to do that as legally, you know, considered adults, this is also about, I think, again, sort of looking at the adults who's in the room as the parent and saying. Hey, I kind of see some things about this that you may not be thinking about and that you may not have considered and that you may. Not be prepared for and it's my job as your parent to consider those things for you to think about those things for you and to present those things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To you? Yeah. You know, I had an interesting thought. And these conversations that you're suggesting and modeling, they're obviously all the right ones. And then there's this little part of me that. As a parent. Like they could even rent the hotel room because we're talking about what what these boys to men can do. Yeah, I know. I had to. You know what? What they can do often, at least in the US, you can't rent a hotel room until you are 25 or 26 years old. So there may be just a a practical limit here. So even if you want to fund this trip on your own, and now we find that you can't, am I the apple for just sort of dumping it on that? Please stop it. Like stop. Yeah, but I know the right thing is fair and just. To have that deeper. Conversation. It's hard for parents, too, to have. Have those conversations were not socialized to have them and they could feel awkward. So any parent out there listening, going, Oh my God, I'm supposed to have these really deep sex conversations with my kids. Keep in mind it's OK that it's hard, not awkward for you too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's it's funny because I you know, I do work with couples around sexuality in their relationships and feel very comfortable. OK we talk about sex and very clear and frank terms and have these really thoughtful discussions. Would it as if I'm going to fess up to this as a parent talking about sex to my own children. Now, like even the adult children, it's like. Yeah. So like it's I, I and I'll, I'll, I'll fess up to how incredibly uncomfortable it is even while like I may have just talked to someone about all sorts of detailed stuff and I step out of my office, my kids and like, oh, you know, it's really. These are tough conversations to have.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And it's both ways that that's uncomfortable quick to normalize that right like. Talking to your parents about facts, knowing that your parents have had like, it's all kind of icky. I'm I'm a sex therapist and when my mom or my dad will bring up like a sexual conversation or topic, not that they do that very often, but even just the mention of the fact that they. They've. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Feel like going out?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Breathing to the other direction.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And my mom was like, is there ever going to be a time where you're not totally icked by the fact that, like, you have parents who are adults who've had, like, a life with? And I'm like, no. Right, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or watching something that's highly sexualized or sexually charged and you're in in theater, in the room with your parents when this scene is playing out, there's just a little, like, comfortable.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Well.

Speaker

Oh my. God.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

OK. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And like. You said we talk about it. We can be really frank. We can be really descriptive like we have. We limit your conversations and yet it's really also very normal for even the most practice of us. To have feelings about the topic, personally, yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

It's normal when it's your own parent. When it's your own child. And I think that that's sort of built into us, right, that that those are. There's there's biological reason for that to be so uncomfortable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Personality to that for sure.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, yeah. Right. And yet the more you have open conversations and the more you know that dialogue is not something that just happens once or twice, which is what we used to do, right. If you did that at all, like one talk and that was it, right referred to as the talk.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The talk, the talk talk.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Right, right, right. Such such an inadequate situation to just bring up the subject very briefly in passing and then never bring it up again, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What a huge mistake.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And a lot of young people really need that coaching and that mentorship because they don't get it somewhere else. They're they're not getting it at school and they're not getting great mentorship from friends and peers. And so they need somebody in their life who's modeling how to have these conversations.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do not learn sexuality from another 14 year old, right?

Host: Michael:

Let me let me add one more thing really quick to the Internet side that I think you guys might. I'm curious to get your take on that anyway. So the other most people said not the asshole. The few people who said you're the asshole kind of went down this. I mean, many of them said you promised blah blah and then well, I didn't know. Like, what were the guard rails you put on it and whatever. But the part that I thought was kind of interesting that came out of that was the people who said money aside, assuming that's not an issue. You're preventing them from having experience and failing. Sometimes you need to let your kids fail and modern parents don't do that often enough. And I'm just kind of curious, like, you know, if you could imagine where you don't need the money to go to Jamaica and have this experience, it's it's fine. That's not. Problem, but letting them see whether it lives up to their expectation or not, and then live kind of what the consequences and learn from that I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think worry. That's a big fail that could. Be a permanent. Life altering kind of fail as opposed to a situation I'll pick myself up. Dust off, kind of like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I think we want to support children. In having developmentally appropriate consequences. Mm-hmm. Right. And not to say that those consequences couldn't be realized in one-on-one scenario, they could go down to, you know, a a southern state to the US and be at a hotel and, you know, similar consequences could be realized in terms of unintended pregnancies or skis.

Speaker

MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

However, I think the overwhelm of being over stimulated with the number of partners available at a resort like this, the breadth of sexual contact. I think it's possible that that's just not developmentally where they are and ready for. So I think when we want to let children and kids or young adults experience life and fall and get back up, we also want to protect them from, you know, making decisions that they're not ready for or, you know, having consequences that. Just don't meet where they are developmentally.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Where? Where? Where? I see this is the difference between I do believe it's important that kids fail. You want to let them fail, but you don't want them to be harmed and what what we're talking about here is a situation where it's not just that they may fail, but they may fail and in some way experience harm themselves or cause harm for others. And so that that that's where I would, they would just respectfully disagree with the intern.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, yes, my kids can fail, but I don't want them to harm be harmed in that failure. We want to want that failure to occur safely, you know, so I'll disagree with the. Internet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, I completely agree with you, Dan. It's about sort of titrating a dose of failure, giving it to them, but not allowing them to fail spectacularly in ways that they would then be harmed. They're just some things we wouldn't let them do and other things that you think.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, they're acceptable. Fear. And it feels like these are as a parent, I would think and as a psychologist, I think these are real. The big risk these kids are asking to take.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, it's not that, you know, the adults who go to a resort like he doesn't hedonism are all being as thoughtful as we're suggesting. It's not like everybody has great conversations around consent and, you know, coercion and harm reduction and all of these things. But again, opportunity to model some of the things that just. That are great and when you go in and you don't have any vision for sort of what is your sexual ethic, what are the things that you're going to do to make sure that everybody is safe and? Protected. You know, you're certainly, you know, maybe not seeing that as much in the adults in the room, let alone, you know, people who are just butting into adulthood.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank you all for joining us and thank you all three of you for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, as Lauren said earlier, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, yeah, this is. This is a fantastic, really wonderful challenge. Michael, thank you for bringing this to us. It really, it really got us thinking through clinically. But also I. Think in just very human and parenting kind of ways.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share of our test views. Any of the podcast platforms, the neighbors and friends and as always, stick around through the credits. Or whatever the bonus conversation happens to be about.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus. Conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Well, we, Dan suggested we do a throwback question. We had ended our season with some this and that kind of questions. But Dan, you you suggested going back to going back to the beginning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. What what? So in your office we have and again people aren't necessarily seeing this, but wow, you are just like plants behind you. Like so, everything in our office is usually has like we we intentionally choose these things either to to show something or to to to part of ourselves or just to have a nice pleasant therapeutic background. Love these plans is there is there specific reason?

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

For them I have. I have a lot of plants both in my Home Office and. All throughout my home. And you know, I think it started off like you said down before, just like they're esthetically appealing and they're, you know, comforting. And they're they just provide a nice atmosphere. But I started to realize over time that they also had another meaning because tending the plants, watching them grow, making sure that. You know you're you're showing them care when you don't tend to them, they can die. And I started to see some parallels in my, you know, planting of. Would youth and sort of how humans grow, how relationships grow, what it takes to sort of cultivate and tend to to both right and so just watching the little things that can happen like a new leaf that develops is like really cool to witness when you start to get into the plant. The world and I started to see this parallel about like, you know, it takes time to see growth inside or interpersonally and relationally. And then when you do, it's just so satisfying to see that new growth to see that new, you know, whether it's a neural pathway or a behavior or something different. But it also takes time. And it takes intention to create that new to speak.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wonderful. Yeah. She's God, I know I'd say. That's terrific. All right.

Host: Michael:

Thanks again for joining us TuneIn again next week for a whole other. And my last full debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

During the episode, Drs. MacBride and Kessler mentioned a clip from the film Annie Hall (1977). 

Here's that clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7nPkpdFAic


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined here by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi! I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride. Dan, welcome back. It's the New Year I've missed you, my business partners joining me today. This is Dr. Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hi, there! Yeah, we've we've taken off the last. Last couple 3 weeks, as we always do. It's about. It's about boundaries. At the end of the year and taking the time for self and for family. And it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that's all great. And now we're back to do more podcasts and talk more about stuff and talk shit and get puzzled and conundrumed by Michael. So let

Dr. Daniel Kessler: let's roll with the New Year.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Woohoo.

Host: Michael: Yeah and the new season will have some things we alluded to at the end of the last one, where we have like guests on the podcast so we're looking forward to that.

Host: Michael: But to start the New Year, it's just the 2 of you and me, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And different.

Host: Michael: But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: My neighbor's shoveling his driveway right now. I shouldn't do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just looking out my window here at my neighbor, neighbor, shoveling his driveway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wonder if he would do mine?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right. Sorry I got a little distracted there. It's the beginning of the year that happens.

Host: Michael: Yeah. Well, for any of the Newbies out there who've never listened before. If you're not familiar with this format, essentially, I've done is, I've gone out and I found an am I the asshole post on the Internet? And you know that's a situation where the poster lived through an experience and is trying to get the Internet to weigh in like, who's the asshole here? And that's hopefully what we'll determine today. So

Host: Michael: where there's been identifiable information. I've kind of scrubbed it to make a little more discreet. And if you're new, also stick around through the credits, there's always a bonus conversation at the end of the podcast so, but for now neither Gayle nor Dan know or have seen this post, or read it, or any of those things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Any of those things. It's all new.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And we do that like some of these. Some of these like people they they know ahead of time, and they sneaky. Say that they, don't we, we? This is all like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really don't, although I have to say doing this for almost a year. Now I do sort of go through life, and at times wonder?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Am I the asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Good? And am I the asshole like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: In contend to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't wonder. I just know.

Host: Michael: Michael, what do you have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Have.

Host: Michael: Okay, so this is this is the header. It is. Am I the asshole for telling my sister? That's implied that she'd have to pitch in around the house that she's staying in rent free.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, that's the headline.

Host: Michael: It's a little wordy. But yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Little wordy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, they're trying to cram a lot of details into the headline where we usually get something that's super clickbaity. And I want to like jump to an answer. This leaves me wondering about both both parties here, OP and the sister, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: 2 more.

Host: Michael: Yeah, okay. So the poster is 30 female, and she says Inherited a house from my maternal grandmother near the city. It's just big enough for me and my husband our 2 kids with the tough housing market. We're lucky to have this home, and couldn't afford one otherwise. My half sister 25 recently got a job in the city center, but couldn't afford to rent nearby or commute.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm interrupting right here for just a second. I'm like, why does she need to say half-sister.

Host: Michael: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Anyway, anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, okay, I will say, maybe because it explains why the OP. Got the house and the sister didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Maybe maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Maybe a grandmother that's not biologically related.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just starting to be judging. I'm starting to judge you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, you're wolf, boy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Distance between her and her sister, like she's my half sister.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I think it's to explain why why the sister didn't get the house, because otherwise the Internet's gonna jump all over. Well, that's not fair, and she should have gotten the house, and you are 50%. And I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Already. I'm the asshole. Right. Go ahead!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: A little bit.

Host: Michael: I love it. Okay. So then, resuming, since we're close, I offered her the guest bedroom, especially after she struggled to find work. Following a layoff. She said she would help out around the house in return. She's been living with us for about a month and started her new job. She occasionally helps out when asked making dinner or putting the kids to bed. And it's been fine.

Host: Michael: Recently, on her work from home day. I asked her to pick up my youngest from school because the nurse called and said she was sick. I couldn't leave work due to major train delays, and my husband wasn't reachable. Our house is a 5 min walk from the school, so it seemed reasonable to ask her. My half sister texted back, saying she'd try. After her meeting. I called and asked her to tell her boss. It was a family emergency, but she said she couldn't take the time and didn't want to babysit for the rest of the day.

Host: Michael: I reminded her that helping out was part of the deal. When she moved in, she argued, she's not free labor now. There's tension in the house, and I'm wondering who's wrong. Here am I, the asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, God!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I really understand OP's position as a parent who's had sick kids. And yet

Dr. Gayle MacBride: they're not the sister's kids. They're not her responsibility, and she's been on the job for a month.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: maybe a family emergency, maybe, maybe, but I don't know that that this is the sister saying I can't leave work to to pick up my. I don't remember niece or nephew from daycare, and then be babysitter after starting the

Dr. Gayle MacBride: for no like I kind of. I think I'm on the side of the half-sister here. I don't like how she did it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but I think I'm I'm leaning toward half-sister.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, you're wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, yes, I can. Always. I can count on you.

Host: Michael: Elaborate.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Tell me when I am wrong, which I deeply, deeply appreciate. Please tell me, in what way am I wrong?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean, you're not. You're not totally wrong. So I mean, the problem is that this OP here is globalizing. And the sister is globalizing a little bit. They're doing like, I mean, in this one situation, it may have been very reasonable to say, Hey, I've been on the job for a month. I can't do this, and that's what you said, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But that's not what the sister said, the sister said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

00:07:51.240 --> 00:08:00.960

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I? The sister didn't say I've been on this job for a month. It really isn't like I can't. I can't do this. I can't piss off my boss, she said, like I'm not free labor. I'm not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, that was kind of an asshole thing to say for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, so so like, if it really was that it was a work situation, and she just couldn't like, I am so sorry I am. Really. I just started. I just I just can't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm good with that. Okay, but that's not the fact pattern here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Given the fact pattern of the sister, saying, I, you know this is not. I'm not free labor, and I'm they're not my kids, and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm and and the part where where she's like not helping out unless ask.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, you're living rent-free

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like you should be. You should be helping out without being asked, and you should be jumping in and doing stuff. And maybe this is the wrong issue to bring it up around the childcare piece, which isn't her responsibility. But given the entire fact pattern and the conflict here. It's not really about the kids. It's about all the other stuff it sounds like. And the kids are what got her pissed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right. So in relationships, whether they be romantic or familial, right rarely is the argument about the thing. It's all up and about the you know the other things, and so I completely agree with you. And you know what we have discussed in previous in our previous season. Often enough is, you know, we get this from a particular lens. And so let's imagine OP comes into our office.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: huffs down on the couch, and it's like, Oh, my God, my sister's such an asshole, let me tell you. And you're like, Oh, yeah, right like you can hear it. But what we don't get is, what did the sister really say? What we hear is what OP said, the sister said, but you know, when you're pissed you don't actually hear what the person said, you hear your version of it? Right? And so it's not a. It's not a hundred percent representation of maybe what actually happened. So I'm a little concerned that it's

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that. Maybe, sister said the thing more gently, more clearly, like, Hey, I've been on the. I've been on the job a month, and I know it's not the fact pattern, and I get that from the from OP. But she may have said that, and sister heard it as no, I'm not responsible for your kids. Dude not going. I'm not going to do it. And so she's posting about that. So I just want to be a little bit cautious about how the story is being presented before we absolutely jump down. One.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, in in your massaged fact pattern.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Charge for what was presented by the way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: For those not watching this on Youtube.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That was almost the second spit. Take in a row.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, I mean in in this, in the fact pattern you've described, where you know, you know, where we where we give, and I agree with you. I really do want to hear this. I would love to sit down here like this, sister, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I could totally hear the sister saying, you know, every time I sit down. Can you do this? Can you do this? Can you do this? Can you do this? Can you do that? And she's constantly asking me for help, and it's like I feel like I just have to do everything for her around this house. I appreciate living here, but I'm just getting sick and tired of being asked constantly to do stuff. And now she asked me to pick up her kids. That's just totally unreasonable. I could see that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, you know what movie clip I'm hearing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Know, I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You set that up, didn't you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's the Annie Hall Movie Club.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of course.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I caught myself I caught it. We'll put a link in the show notes here, or or Michael will. I know he loves.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Clip.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: To the clip from Annie Hall. It's about. It's about frequency of sex, and it's absolutely wonderful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: it's so. I yes, I could see that differing perspective, and all that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If we're gonna just stick with the facts provided.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's a good idea. I mean, that's what this is about. So let's let's stick with the facts as presented.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's just being an asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If we were to say if we were to look at what is

Dr. Daniel Kessler: probably happening here, which is, it's somewhere in between our guess and what this and what the OP. Has said maybe not so much. Maybe she's being put upon too much, and that's something I'd really want to try to figure out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. The facts as presented. Yes, the sisters being an asshole because she really is in city center. I mean that suggests a really high rent. But then, what the expectation is from the woman who owns the house is, you know, essentially for the sister to be doing 2 jobs, a housekeeping job and her paid employment, and it may not be

Dr. Gayle MacBride: reasonable to, you know, in terms of the distribution of labor here, I think when you are ready to give over a room, I do think there's some boundaries and some expectations that you need to put into place, and maybe create some clarity around what you need that person to do to feel like you can generously give that room over.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But don't do it unless you really can give over generously. Yes, this person's going to be living in my house, and they're probably not going to be giving back to that household equitable to what I would have made in rent. That's not going to happen unless with them working outside the home. That's that's just not it. You're doing it because you're trying to generously set your sister up, to give her a little time to, to save some money, to be able to to move out on her own. There needs to be time limits here, and some labor limits.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm reminded of something I heard. Oh, gosh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: 20 years ago, long time ago it really stuck with me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Someone once said, Don't even remember I heard it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If a family member asks you to loan them money, and you feel comfortable owning the money, do it, but as you loan them the money. Think of it as a gift.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hopefully they'll pay you back. But the reality is that family, because things get tight and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know the bank's going to repo my car. But my family is not. Family often gets paid last.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and if you just assume that it's a gift you'll be happy with them. They'll be happy with you. If you get the money back you'll be. Everyone will be even overjoyed if you don't. You know you've helped out a family member, and it may may have been the same attitude may have been useful here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like. You know what you can live with me if you can. I would love it. If you had helped around the house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It would have been nice if they'd set some parameters like you do, all of your own shit, so I don't clean it up to you at all, and maybe you know you throw down this or that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, and you maybe agree to babysitting, you know, once every other week, so that Heavy and I can go out to for a date night. That'd be great like, I think that seems really reasonable. And I do understand that it's sort of an unanticipated

Dr. Gayle MacBride: challenge when you have a kiddo that needs to be picked up. Let's say mid morning because they've gotten sick. And now you have kind of your workday stretching ahead of you, and I think the other. The other problem here is we can easily slip into this idea of work from home means I'm hanging around the house all day

Dr. Gayle MacBride: when I work from home, you know I close my door and I'm pretty unavailable. Maybe I'll be able to switch a load of laundry, but I sure as Heck am not watching a a daycare, aged child, you know they need quite a bit of supervision and attention just from a safety, let alone care standpoint, and I don't think it's reasonable to ask a working person to watch a child. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, and if you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Would frown on it. You know they wouldn't want you home watching your baby. They want you working and having care for your baby.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This is absolutely one of those things that's an argument about something else.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And they they end up picking, probably unintentionally, that this this most recent issue. I would be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I would really want to sit down and hear both of them and I. And I'd want them to talk about what their relationship is and how to. There's there's a great. This is one of those. It's a great opportunity for familial couple counseling like the family therapy where you sit down and work out this shit. So you can have a really great relationship. And everyone's on the same page

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because it sounds like they're just not on the same page.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Here and could be like this is this, this is blown up to be something awful, but it doesn't need to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right. And because it's family, you have the potential for such a long history of maybe hurts. Or, you know, disappointments right? I could see the OP. Being kind of the older sister and getting this house, and then I'm always looking after you. I'm always saving your butt, and it just becomes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Family.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Pile of stuff. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So so it sounds like we're in agreement that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, follow this fact pattern precisely, and OP is correct.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sister's an asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What we've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's your judgment. No, I don't agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: With the strength of that. I think that everybody sucks here. Given this fact pattern because I don't like the Ops attitude, even though the sister communicated, you know, lacked some, maybe nuance in the communication. I don't like how she bit back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hmm, okay, I hear you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I still think in the original digital fact pattern, the sister is more of a Dick

Dr. Daniel Kessler: than OP. However, I think we both have strong doubts as to the

Dr. Daniel Kessler: accuracy of this, that we both think that chances are this has been massaged a bit, not intentionally, but see things through our own perspective, and we both, and we both think that maybe it's not like the sister's not as bad a person as as Opie is making her out to be. And there's another side of the story that we're not getting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Alright great Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Do we miss.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Everything from the Internet. Yeah.

Host: Michael: Well, I am.

Host: Michael: Yeah. I mean, I went through the you know the post, and for something. I guess new this year that I thought I could. Do. You know, AI, is this thing out there, and I'm always kind of interested in what I can do with it. And so what I did is, I actually took the post and fed it into AI. And I said, Give me a tally. I want to know how many votes for each of these different things.

Host: Michael: Wow!

Host: Michael: So robot overlords, please do this for me, and

Host: Michael: the votes are no assholes here. Got 2 votes. Everybody sucks here got 13,

Host: Michael: not the asshole got 54, and you're the asshole. Got 1,213.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wow!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Everyone thought OP was the asshole.

Host: Michael: Absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because they see through this massage level communication. But I'm just guessing Michael did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, I mean.

Host: Michael: Why, people thought the you know what were themes?

Host: Michael: Well, for that I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Internet think we were. We were wrong according to the Internet. Wow.

Host: Michael: So the 2 things they we are

Host: Michael: hung up on they really got hung up on 2 pieces. One was that the child is your responsibility, not your sister. Childcare is not a chore, it is a it is a they said choice. I don't know but you can. Anyway, whatever it's it's your responsibility.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not once you have the child, then you are legally mandated to provide care.

Host: Michael: Yes, and then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I hear that I hear that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Utility.

Host: Michael: And then the other piece of it was that you don't, you know work from home is not just. You don't get to dictate what she does on work for home. So the comment that kind of encapsulated that the best was this one that said calling her boss was way out of line, and could be detrimental to her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wait, wait, wait, so wait.

Host: Michael: This was a piece that I didn't share with you. It was actually in the comments that she clarified that she actually tried to reach out to the boss.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, see! Whoa!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know so like.

Host: Michael: But that's not wasn't part of the original thing. So anyway, like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Totally wait! Wait! I am totally changing my my boat. Here I am completely changing my vote.

Host: Michael: I didn't tell you that, cause it's like The Diplomat show. You don't need to know that part yet like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, no, no. If if OP reached out to her sister's boss, she's the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Wait. Let me massage this for a moment. What if? What if the sisters share a boss sister got a job in the same office and OP. Reaches out and says, Hey, by the way, I'm stuck in office. But you know my sisters work from home today. Do you mind if she's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So that's too massaging. That's.

Host: Michael: Okay, so wait. Just ignore that part. Ignore that question. Because really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really, hard.

Host: Michael: I know, I know, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Host: Michael: Once that was shared. It kind of took over all of the threads.

Host: Michael: But

Host: Michael: this is the part I actually wanted to share with you, which was, she was literally in a meeting

Host: Michael: when you contacted her. She's new, and said that she would do it after the meeting was over, or would try. Your daughter is sitting in the nurse's office for a little while, and that's not the end of the world. Sounds like she does help out without any complaint. She was even going to help you out here in the middle of her workday.

Host: Michael: But you weren't patient enough to wait, or to give her that kind of time. And so that consideration of like this is a new job. And just because it's work from home doesn't mean that you get to diminish the you know the importance of it, or dictate what her day looks like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really glad you brought that up, because that was one of the things I had in my head as you said it, and then forgot to kind of come back and articulate it, which is, you know, as a parent. There have been times where I've not been able to get to my kid bang on when they're when they're ill, and they sit there in the nurse's office. So even if massage facts for a moment, Sister says, Okay, I can pick up my niece and I will have her at home. The mom's responsibility. OP's responsibility is to get her ass from work.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: figure out the train situation and get home and take care of that child. You know this should been should have been a brief ask not an all day. Ask like she took. What is, do me a favor. Pick up my kid because they're sick, and get them home in their own bed to stretch on all day, which is absolutely unreasonable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I'm totally changing my my vote here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And yeah, I mean, I've I've done the same thing, Gayle, where? Where a kid and I couldn't get there. My wife couldn't get there. Kids in the nurse's office like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: School nurses understand that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Quickly as possible, like I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't wanna abandon my my sick child, but sometimes it's like, No, I can. I can. I can get out in a half an hour, or you work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know you work a half hour, 45 min away. And yeah, I can get there. But it's going to take me a little time to get there, and there's like, all right. Now, if you said I won't be there till 5 o'clock, it'd be different situation. But

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I really I am. I am like over the top.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: annoyed with this, like you called you violated that boundary you called.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's so uncool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Boss like. No, It. In fact, it's the fact that throws into doubt everything else that she said about what happened.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't buy her story at all anymore because of that.

Host: Michael: It was funny like you could. I mean, obviously, this is all

Host: Michael: asynchronous, you know, like it's it's static, you know, but you could see, like the progression of this train wreck like she just kind of threw this out there as like, Oh, yeah, I did this thing. And like all this other stuff, and everyone's like what? And then like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You did. You did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Host: Michael: like they wanted clarification like, how do you know the boss? How did you get the boss's phone number? All this stuff? And she was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Like Nope.

Host: Michael: That's it. No answers anymore. I'm done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, right, someone now. And we see this sometimes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They really they did something terrible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And they're going to post a massage fact pattern

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so that they can say No, see? I asked the Internet, and they said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I disagree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You disagree.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I disagree. I mean, I think that's ultimately kind of what happened.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Your version of it assumes she had a level of insight when she.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: For confirmation. I really I mean, you don't post this, and then I and think you are wrong, but hopefully come back to your sibling and go. Look, I'm right. The Internet says I'm right. I think she just had no clue. She's totally tone deaf that you don't call somebody else's boss. Could you imagine if I called my husband's boss and said, By the way, I can't get out of a meeting, you need to let him go like, even for the spouse. That would be terrible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It would be. You know you're right. Even for a spouse it would be terrible. It would be. It would be absolutely terrible. I'm just imagining, like my colleague, my colleague, my my wife's boss like, hey? I can't get out of work. Can you let her out the rest of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? Okay, okay, let me massage it just a moment. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You please. No massage away at this point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Slosh! Away!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Has not been like, has not been up and up with us right? So now we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So what if

Dr. Gayle MacBride: a boss is your personal friend? And it's like, Hey, man, do me a solid, my! Whatever friend needs to go or sibling whatever needs to go. Pick up my kid because I can't get out. Would you please do me the solid of letting them go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You still think? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, I mean there was a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It is unprofessional and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There was a time there was a time when when my wife's former boss, was. It was a friend of ours, and we hung out with them sometimes, and like I still wouldn't have called him up and like, Hey.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, and It's unimaginable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Off the boundary that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Inspection.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's such a huge boundary to cross. It just makes me. It just calls into question where her boundaries are and what's going on for her. I'm really troubled by this behavior.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I think I think sometimes we we can overstep boundaries and get kind of enmeshed when we and feel entitled to do so when we've when we've offered to do

Dr. Gayle MacBride: what feels like a really big favor. And then, when we're feeling sort of put upon, we again continue to to like stride forward across someone else's boundaries, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And autonomy, and we just lack insight into that. So I would have liked these sisters to have a much clearer kind of set of of boundaries and rules around, how they navigate living in this house together, and how the sister gets the, I assume, younger half sister up on her feet and going. But this is not the way to do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, not okay. This is all. So there's many shades of not okay.

Host: Michael: Yeah, when she, when she

Host: Michael: disclose that information. It was like those videos where they have captured the moment where somebody said the thing that they weren't supposed to like. It was like the inside thought that came outside of their brain.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Host: Michael: And they didn't realize that that wasn't supposed to be said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, well, so you dropped a bomb, Michael, you you absolutely came back and said, Here's this thing that you had no idea when you 1st started discussing. What else have we missed? What else revealed itself on the comments or.

Host: Michael: No, you you really touched on most of it, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Bombing the whole of the ship.

Host: Michael: Majority of the Internet pre

Host: Michael: comment about reaching out to the boss really was like, it's work from home. But you can't assume what that day looks like, or her flexibility, or and that's above and beyond.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: All of.

Host: Michael: It's above and beyond asking someone to do dishes or cleaning rip around the house that kind of thing.

Host: Michael: There was kind of a side conversation. That was kind of fun that you guys kind of started to touch on a bit, which was, You know, how long is it acceptable to leave your child in the nurse's office, and essentially the Internet's consensus was, you know, you get there as fast as you possibly can. And you know, then this discussion about commute times. Come in there, and you know, communicating with the school office like, I'm sorry I'm 45 min out. I'll get there as fast as I can, whatever.

Host: Michael: And other people, you know, like saying, No, you got to be there in 15 min.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not really.

Host: Michael: Anyway, like you said.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sometimes you can't. Yeah, I mean, there, there have been previous jobs that my wife and I've had where it would not have been possible

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like. If you at that very moment walked out the door of the office, it would still be 35, 40 min, whatever. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I mean, I used to work an hour away from my kids daycare. And I had a moment where and I was. You know I was in a meeting, and I said, like, I will be there as fast as I can. But it might be an hour and a half, and I'm going to be the 1st one like right? Even my husband can't get there any faster. And the school nurses answer was appropriate, which is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, okay, but get here as fast as you can.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I will. I respect your time, because right now you've got to isolate my kid for whatever reason, and you're being exposed to whatever's going on. If this is contagious like. Now, I've asked someone to sit in a room with with my kid not feeling well, and you don't know what what's going on with them. So I think the only answer is, get there as fast as you can. But we need to really hold in mind that most things are absolutely flexible at work. There's very little that we're doing

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that is critical. Now, if you know you're a surgeon and you're wrist deep in someone's surgery.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Get it. But but yeah, you you otherwise you you cancel a meeting. You tell your boss I gotta go. Family is the priority.

Host: Michael: Yeah, what I always love about those side conversations is one. It's not what the post is about, but it's hilarious to watch them kind of take over, and then they often

Host: Michael: devolve into like this basic

Host: Michael: lack of understanding of people having a different situation than your own, you know, like I can get to work in 15 min. Why can't you? And they're like, well, literally, my commute is 3 times as long as yours.

Host: Michael: Okay? So like, I'm sorry, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Certainly had commutes that were that long, and sometimes sometimes you do, and it sucks, and you get where you can as quickly as you can.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it. It sucks. But you know sometimes the reason you make the decision for the daycare isn't always because it's close to your work, you know, that can be problematic if you live far away from from work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Great.

Host: Michael: Yeah. Well, thanks again for another riveting debate. And, as you guys said, it was awesome getting back in the saddle again in the New year in season. 2.

Host: Michael: Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And truth is greater than your own reality. Right? Look around. Other people have other truths that are true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really like that point, and we we make it a lot. But, like your reality, may not be the same as other people's realities, and another plug, for like we had a lot of fun stuff coming up this year. So it's going to be this, this new season is going to be, I think I think really interesting. So.

Host: Michael: Yeah, please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the credits for that bonus conversation about whatever happens to be on their minds today.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: 1st of all, Dan, if I haven't said it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Happy New Year. I'm glad to be here with you in 2025, and it kind of made me reflect a little about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's why.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know, and maybe reflect a little about New Year's and traditions? Are there? Are there things that you think are really important to do at the beginning of the year, or just, or or maybe even what is your take on resolutions like? Talk to me a little bit about about New Year, and kind of your perspective.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I think that I think we remake ourselves periodically.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And the New Year's as good an excuse as any

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to review where you've been in the last year, and what you want to do are you? Are you achieving all that you can? Are you? Are you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There are years that I've made like really important like these, the changes I want to make in the New Year. There are years when I've gone I'm resolving only to resolve. Nothing right now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Which I was quite successful at

Dr. Daniel Kessler: ironically and paradoxically, and whatever else. But I think that there are times periodically where it's useful for us to do some life assessment. I think about like some of the

Dr. Daniel Kessler: some of the older clients I work with who are doing some of that life review.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And it's so useful to do that periodically, I tend to do mine around birthdays.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And more than around like a

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Changing of a calendar year.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Changing calendar year seems for some reason more artificial than the day that I was born. I don't know why, but by telling you my my sort of life, review and reflection around birthdays, and especially big milestone birthdays.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think there's an awareness that different different groups use different calendars. Right? You know, the New Year for me is not the New Year for everyone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, no. And I think it's I think it's but I think it's a useful. I think it can be

Dr. Daniel Kessler: when when the time is right

Dr. Daniel Kessler: task to sit down and go. This is what. But but then we talk about. And maybe you need to do an episode about like how to do proper

Dr. Daniel Kessler: goal setting and resolutions and things like that, because I think it's really easy to make lofty, unrealistic goals and then feel like shit when you don't achieve them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have a mixed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Propose that we don't air that in January. Let's let's back that up into the middle of the year and make it as arbitrary as possible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Exactly so. I think it can be useful to do that if it's done correctly and well. And Yada Yada Yada, so. But.

Host: Michael: Thanks. So much for listening. Tune in again next time for a whole other, am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Season 1 (Episodes 1 - 44)

During the episode, Drs. MacBride and Kessler mentioned a couple of books. Here are those titles:


Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hey, we're going to do this again this week.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Aren't we, MacBride? We are. I am so excited.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Another podcast, another am I the asshole? Question that Michael's going to bring us and we get to poke at it. Isn't that great?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Fantastic. But before we do, we should introduce ourselves. Let's go first with fun.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, we should. I'm doctor Dan Kessler. I'm a clinical psychologist. Do a lot of work with relationships. Some work with sleep and the cool thing about working with relationships is it brings up so many different aspects of psychology and we're going to talk about them today through this whole. Am I the asshole thing? Happy to be. And I'll quick introduction here. My business partner, Doctor MacBride Veritas Psychology Associates. Been working together for 10 years now. Tell me about yourself.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Oh, oh, you said Veritas Psychology Associates.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Worried about your dimension? Did I say Veritas psychology associates?  I got our business name. Wrong. Yeah, that's terrific. Michael, can you fix that in post?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. I am also clinical psychologist. I've had the privilege of working with Doctor Kessler and Kessler for almost a dozen years now. And relative.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In a while.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Newly in a in a private practice setting, which I've been thrilled to do, we've had a great adventure and quite frankly, I'm the glue that holds us together because we have not given our intrepid host a moment to introduce himself, or even a word edgewise. Today, I am pleased to also introduce.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, hang on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The other Doctor MacBride on the line, little known fact to our regular listeners, doctor Michael MacBride as our host today.

Host: Michael:

Just the Doctor of books and words though. So if you need a prescription for one of those, I I will happily write once.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Got you covered.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you actually give really good book prescriptions. Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Thanks. I appreciate it. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, will you take it away and? Do your hosting duties already?

Host: Michael:

Sure, absolutely for anyone who is not sure what they've stumbled into, this is our podcast where we take a am I the asshole situation, you know, somebody on the Internet has posted the scenario for. Readers to weigh in and I've gone out and I found that I have not told Dan nor MacBride about it. And I'm going to put it in front of him and see what they do with that. I I always like their perspective. And you know, I've DE identified the post. So like it's a little more discreet and that kind of stuff as well. And if you're new, I'll also stick around through the credits. We're going to try something different. And our bonus conversation today. So we'll see how that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If you are a loyal listener and you go, what the hell is happening here? I just need to let you know we've gotten a little maybe loose at the end of our season. This is the last episode of our season, but continue to to listen and we're going to we're going to bring you some treats.

Host: Michael:

Ah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

While we're on break.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And as just to correct. Briefly, Dr. MacBride, we've not got. I have wanted it. I've gone a bit Rd. here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Straight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've gone a bit rogue and a bit astray, and so it's entirely my fault or responsibility, depending on how you look at. So Michael, you got you got a scenario for us.

Host: Michael:

I do. Yeah. So today's is, am I the asshole for following my late sisters wishes and kicking kicking her brother out of her funeral.

Speaker

No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think you need to hear more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Dan, I I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm I'm really convinced.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because it was her wishes. You automatically, this is the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right thing to do. No, you're right. I should list. All right, all right. We'll hear some more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should probably hear. Come on. All right. Again upon mention. Doctor Kessler. Going rogue. Let's listen to this. Let's listen to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, would you, Michael, would you present us with the facts as stated by OP, the original poster.

Host: Michael:

Yes, this is what I got for you. My sister passed away after a long. Illness and she left very clear instructions about her funeral. Our brother John was not to attend or receive any of her ashes. She left me as the executor of her estate. My sister wasn't great to John growing up, and he wasn't much better. They fought constantly as an adult, she went to therapy, recognized the harm she had done, and tried to make things right. She apologized multiple times, reaching out to him, but John shut her down each time, making it clear he didn't want a relationship with her when she got sick. My sister made one last attempt to reconnect, asking John to visit her. He declined again, telling her he wasn't interested. Even as she was on her deathbed, she was hurt. She made it crystal clear that she didn't want to see him if he didn't want to see him in her life, then she didn't want him around in death. To her, it was simple. If you couldn't show up alive, he had no place at her funeral. When she passed, I sent John a notice that she had passed, but informed him of her wishes. Since he wasn't at the reading of her. Despite this, John showed up uninvited. I think our uncle gave him the date and time in line with my sister's wishes. I asked him to leave. He got angry, caused to seen, and accused me of being cruel and denying him a chance to reconcile and say goodbye. Some family members criticized me afterwards, saying I should have let him get closure and the funerals are. The living I pointed out. It was her final wish and I'm still refusing to give him anything of hers. Am I the asshole here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm jumping in First off with how sad it is when when families are when someone in a family is unwilling to run. There are certain situations with that are irreconcilable. Obviously I'm not talking about a situation where you know, trauma has been no one should be forced to reconcile. This sounds like one of those situations where they were. Unpleasant to each other, but not abusive maybe, and given the chance to reconcile. That's unfortunate that it happened. The way it did it I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I completely agree. And I'm really struggling to understand John's. Live here and wanting to do this visit after the death but refusing the end of this woman's life was very clearly in front of them. I sort of understand like, oh shit, I missed this one opportunity and I didn't know it was a sudden heart attack.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or something and you lose that person unexpectedly before you have the chance to reconcile. But he knew this was going to happen. And so I found myself very curious about John's intention and. Motive to show up? Well, like I don't get it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. If he wants, I mean what he's saying is he wants, you know, he wants some closure. He wants the opportunity to reconcile in his head and come to the come to grips and all this. And if he was never given that opportunity, maybe I could see this. Say she suddenly like she got hit by a bus and. It gets rushed to the hospital and on her deathbed says I never want to see John at the funeral. But here she's she's really she's asked for the reconciliation and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And right and that offer was put before him during her lack of a better word, period of illness. I I. But he did multiple opportunities. It sounds like in his mind. And this is where I just I don't understand I think where we sometimes get it wrong is we.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. He had the opportunity. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think that our ability to gain closure rests with an event. Or an opportunity afforded to us by someone else. I think closure is really a deeply personal opportunity that we take and it can't be dependent on the actions or an event controlled by another because you put all of the control on them and then your ability to get closure is completely out of your control. And this just sucks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Block more so John here would. Have been advised had he been in my office looking for? Your advice to find ways to gain closure around this relationship that was separate from the funeral.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I I'm. I'm. I'm really puzzled by, you know, anyone who refuses the overtures of connection throughout her life to suddenly want to do it at her death, that that seems a little bit like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Nothing is it and not for the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, that doesn't. I don't, I don't. I don't understand that. I mean, if he was, if through her life I've been, I'm imagining the situation where he's like, you know what? She was awful to me and no amount of apology. Cuz here's the thing. If she asks for reconciliation and he refuses it, that's just right. It makes me sad. If a family can be reconciled. If someone can recognize like, it sounds like she really realized that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was terrible to him and I was terrible sister and I'd like to make amends for. That he doesn't have to accept that he's under no obligation whatsoever, except that it's sad to me when people aren't able to get that, but sometimes things are bad enough that you're not, and if things are so bad that he can't, I respect that. That's a boundary. Yeah, I don't get shown up. At the funeral that that bad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I mean I think worried that he wants an opportunity to kind of get up in a public way and just shit all over her memory, which is really, quite frankly, going to ruin it for other people there. Yeah. And I'm not going to put he's going to do, but I I really cannot fathom a. That is benevolent and healing again. Wrong. Maybe we have comments and updates and whatever, but like I I really struggle to understand perspective and need and want here because we did turn on those opportunities right now. Oh, sorry. Go on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, no, I I could see a situation where he like, sometimes the actual reality of a thing is different than you think it's going to be. But at that point, I think it's he's he's unfortunately in a situation where he's gotta say, I didn't realize that I really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, sure. I think it's yours for staff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We did want to get something here and I should have, but it's too late now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. And now we also the the minor characters, right, the the family, who is so upset with the living sister following through on the deceased last wishes. And I think there's this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't think we can do that. You did it again. Do we know OP? 'S gender here.

Host: Michael:

Yes, I'm sorry. And his sister.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sister. Ohh, I'm sorry.

Speaker

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't. I don't know. You talking about? No, but there's just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I thought.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The truth and the brother.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I I apologize. I thought that I I thought that we didn't. I thought we didn't get OP's gender here. I I I deeply apologize for being for the for the criticism.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's OK. No, you gotta get it right. No. I I really appreciate staying on points. You know, we often ask like we want to get this right because we don't want to incorrectly assume things. So, you know, a better question and get it right and then be wrong. But no, in this case I was, I was pretty certain what I heard was it was a sister who was the executor of the will of a of a deceased sister and then this. Mother. And so we've got this living sister who has been asked to do something really difficult, which is keep a sibling away from a family event. And the family members are reacting very strongly against this because they think we do have a tendency to not want to sit and watch somebody else's pain and we tend to move toward mitigating that pain versus doing the harder thing. And so this family jumps on on this, on the executor sister. And wants to just make everything fine and let John in and I don't I. Don't think that. That is being respectful of of the decisions wishes. I I really do struggle that this family railed up against.

Speaker

Sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I am. I am distressed that the families choice here. I'm. I can't imagine that this whole story is new to the fan. Half everyone knows that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think they may have been surprised at the vehemence with with which did the student felt about this relationship that she just said I'm done and that might have surprised them. And so they were. I'm prepared to deal with, Oh my gosh, he's here and now.

Host: Michael:

What can I let me add one thing really quick that OP added some clarification because the number of people online asked like what was their beef? Essentially, you know, like what? What was the the bad blood between them because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Leave.

Host: Michael:

They did wonder about the possibility of abuse of some kind, and so the Opie said. It was mostly because they're constantly pitted against each other, which wasn't always their fault. They did the same sport and essentially had similar strengths. She also won more often, so that didn't help that dynamic, which made him feel invisible. It was the more you do, the more the parent loved you. Kind of deal. The winner got rewards and. Pension and in short, he blames her for his crappy childhood. Our mother wasn't great. She's already passed away, but she often manipulated the situation one against the other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So what a horrible situation. So. So thank you for for that because because I think that sometimes we get tagged up or we get caught up in like if there was abuse here, if he had been abusive to him and he was choosing not to connect with not to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Meaning that he's choosing to not reconnect for other reasons. That's his decision. But I certainly would be even more sympathetic. It sounds like the IT sounds like the parents were really emotionally harmful to these two. These two people as young, that anger got carried into adulthood.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I mean, it's unfortunate the the, the son seems like he was really kind of in a setup. And it's hard sometimes to push against our parents, even if we know that the process is toxic because we so often need that relationship. And so that's where the pitting can really happen, where you then have to choose between a sibling relationship or a parent. Relationship. What a shitty choice. And so you choose parents because when you're young, especially if you're the youngest child, you really need those parents just for developmental and, you know, support just kind of basic things throughout life. And then, you know, we get down a road of complex and we forget where it started and how it got going and really how to move past it. It's become habit in knee jerk and nobody knows why anymore and. This this is such a this. Is such a lost? Opportunity for this family, and I know we say that a lot and it really sounds like John, maybe even just really recognized at that, that the reality of his sister being gone. On. What a lost. Opportunity it was, but unfortunately sometimes those opportunities are just gone and we need to be respectful at that. Point. That's unfortunate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it it is unfortunate. It sounds like it sounds like the the the sister here, the the sister really played into this as a child and recognized later in life how she had been manipulated and how she had been. She had done harm as a child and really wanted to make amends like I. Complement her in her recognition that she'd done harm. This is a it's it's sometimes like when people are in therapy and we're talking about the harm done to them. That's that's hard. Sometimes it's even harder when people are coming to therapy and they're talking about the harm that they've done. Like that's that's incredibly powerful. Do work on. This is what I've done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, sometimes they they're able to make amend directly. Sometimes they're able to indirectly make changes and make amends some way that's not directly them. Mm-hmm. It sounds like the sister really wanted to make positive amends as best she could. And you can't unring a bell, but you can acknowledge damage.

Host: Michael:

Well, let me let me ask one of the questions that's really at the crux of a lot of. The discussion online with. Which is what matters most. The sisters dying wish or the living people who are left with the sorrow and sadness and needing to overcome that or heal in some way like that that ends up being kind of at the crux of this question is how do you choose which side? Values.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, it's a question of funerals are for the living. And if they're truly for the living, then why can't? Come. You know, it's not like the sister's going to know. And yet we very much go out of our way to honor individuals last wishes because they have entrusted us to put a capstone on their life in some way. A very specific way in those, you know, they they die hoping knowing that that person will do that for them. I I think that's that's a really hard ask which is more important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we we have this tradition around trying to trying to follow through with the final wishes. Some diet and I think it's a reasonable tradition. I don't want to abandon that tradition officially. Not like like, like, one day I might want to say, hey, could you please do this? And I don't want to think all this shit's not going to follow through. What I want to do, you know, and I kinda. I kinda want to like I don't want to abandon this tradition and.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I get it. I totally agree. That funerals are are for the living. Absolutely true, 100% true. So I don't think this is an either or. I think the funerals are for the living and where you can you want to.

Speaker

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You want to honor the final wishes of the deceased, and sadly in this case that that those two things were.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. In conflict, yeah, I I found myself thinking about is the world in which you say, you know, John really appreciate how you, how you have really taken this in and how maybe even your perspective. Has shifted because of this loss, it's really important to our sister that you not be at the actual event. What we can do is set aside some time for closure. Right after the actual event where if you wish to come in and Payless respects, you may do that. She says that you're not at the funeral, but she can't. We can't stop anyone from paying less respects in the sense of like should show up at a burial site or even just have a thoughtful moments and reflection or prayer for it. Like we can't, we don't have. Control over that. So if we just. Offer a path toward that if that's truly what he wanted, then yeah, maybe that, but not at the funeral.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Exactly. You could have gone to the Funeral Home and visited. He could have, as you said, visited her grave site afterwards and had a conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think that's hard because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wireless.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's alone in that grief then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, but that's I I don't. I don't have a problem with him being alone in the grief. I feel like. I mean, I hate to sound cold about it. Sounds like he chose his lonely. And I'm sad for that. Really sad for that because there isn't. The problem is this is one of those where there isn't a right answer. Like there's no situation where, where, where we get to undo the damage done by the parents.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe that's the first thing like.

Host: Michael:

Right, right. OK, great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or by the by the kids to each other as children. There's no situation we get to honor both the last wishes of the deceased and the desire for closure from Brother. Like this is a sorry. This is a real downer. Of an episode. This is non, but I have to say like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Jane.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't see it. I don't see it. I don't see a good solution here. I see a lot of different levels of shitty solutions.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I do think the best. Solution is the this one where he has some private time and if that's not satisfactory, again I would if you were my client we would be exploring why that wasn't and really what his motives and hopes were. But yeah, no, I I agree that that ideally that family would have supported the executor to to enforce this idea that. He not be. And she offered olive branches at different times, or even an opportunity to build a relationship and discuss. And he he declined. And if she doesn't want him there, I think that's that's totally fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I also feel I feel for her being the being stuck in the middle here, so we've we've been talking lately about minor character getting back to the family, like putting putting this the the the executor sister in the middle here have a shit thing to do. First name the executor because the deceased entrusted her with making decisions on her behalf and on behalf of the funeral.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh God, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Host: Michael:

Sir.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She's the one who gets to make those decisions, whether you like it or not. Executor is not a committee. It's a. It's a role someone gets and they get certain decisions made within the rule of law and she made that she made the decision as she was entrusted to do. You may not.

Speaker

Do you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it but like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And none of the family gets that. This isn't like you said, it isn't the committee. She's made a decision. Now we just. Our job is to support her in that decision.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And similarly, if she'd made the decision to allow John there and or family members who thought like, no, you should not do that, you should. You should not be allowed again. She's the executor and she is the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She made the decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

On who is empowered to make that decision? I I'm sick with her decision.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And a little.

Speaker

Bit of an.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Aside, I feel really compelled to just say it is one of the kindest things that you can do to map out these decisions and communicate these with a loved 1 so they know how to make these decisions. What a shitty thing to have been left. Without but a big question mark and his sister's like, oh, I don't know. I have such a like, it was a bit, although hard it was. It was a kindness that her sister did to say I'm very clear. I don't want John here. If it had been most of the question mark, I think that would have been even assholes for the sister. So having these conversations are really important. And making sure that you have them with the person who's most likely going to fulfill this. Role.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And quick public service announcement here. If you have a will to write detail the fuck out of that thing like, you can always like, they can always say, you know what? I don't want this painting. I want that one. Are you willing to trade with me? If you got multiple?

Speaker

MM. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kids. But for, but don't like, don't let them be like split and shut up on. Their own they they.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, right, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They will always get it wrong. They will always. The number of times I've seen people get mad at each other because this person got fat and I'm entitled to this and you're entitled to that. And I did this more and started like like, like like literally like I. Up to this one older person, I only remember. I honestly don't remember was in my office or in personal life, though no Phi here would like put stickers on the back of everything in their house.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh I wouldn't answer that did that. We came along with posted notes and like I want that lamp pull and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And everything. So there was no argument and afterwards, if the kids say, you know what, I never.

Speaker

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't like this. Would you be willing to trade with me? They can do that, right? But like everything has a post it note. And there's no argument about who is entitled to what. I just like, boom, love.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That no look. I think that's great. And I think that we really underestimate how complicated death is. You know each other in this world. And I tell you. Comparatively, I think it's relatively easy leaving this world and tidying up your life. I mean relative to dead. Because there's healthcare directives and powers of attorney and well, and your shit and your assets and your liabilities and all of this stuff. And it's not even like I was talking to a family member because we've had a number of aging senior family members and just talking about how complex it was. Even when you think you have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All of the right documents in place. There's something that can happen that people are like we don't. Know just we. Don't have it written down and these loopholes are only found when we're faced with them.

Host: Michael:

And.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it's hard. It's hard to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you see, you see so many and people, the other piece here is that emotions.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Make decisions for someone else.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Running high. Do you get this? Emotions running high and then and then there's and then there's often this. Well, well, had the doctors tried this? Well, have they tried that? Well, you didn't. And I see this family. I I've seen families in conflict over over dying relatives like this person wants the. Can we try this one more thing. And why are you giving up and then?

Speaker

Feel.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, why are you people and people get into all sorts of conflicts around stuff around death and dying even before we get around trying to figure out the frigging like, like wills and stuff. But like I I know I love your like post it note ants. Like, great, what a terrific idea. Never. Never. Like leave that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, yeah. That's great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Vague and uncertain because there there are going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To become. Then you have three people who want the same ice chest, and it's going to be a competition to who gets. It out the back door first, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And these things happen and they're awful. And I've seen situations or family members stop talking to each other because they were fighting over. Who got, you know, whatever. And it's. Like ohh God no, but here's the situation where you know if and Gertrude writes on the back of every painting, who gets what we're honoring her wishes and she's not using those paintings and her anymore. Those paintings are for the living, so we could argue for those who are arguing funerals are for the living. So are those. You know, we do have to honor her wishes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All we honor. Her wishes. Because this choice we do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So we're back to the topic. At hand, which is yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Tell tell you that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right now I thought honoring the right right there, right there, honoring the level of the wishes or honoring the decedents wishes to to decide who may not be in attendance to your funeral. And I think that she is within her rights. I think the executor of the estate did the best she could. It's a shitty situation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Situation. It should be that she's in, especially on this day. I'm really sorry. Not an asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No. No. So. Oh, he's not an asshole. I think Johnson asshole for showing up when he's not wanted. I get that he's grieving. I get that. He's in pain when you're specifically asked to not show. To someplace whether right or wrong, just not to show up. Someplace, I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are you moved me a little? I think I think I moved to asshole. Yeah. The family are being assholes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. The the family are being apples for, for fighting, for getting all up in arms about this. John's being an asshole for like if it wasn't communicated with him, I could totally see a situation like it was never communicated with it to him. He wanted to get this last closure. He showed up at the funeral. He was told not to and gets really upset. I can. I'll actually.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not clear. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And give him. That ohh. For sure, he's not an absolute. He may have been shortsighted. He may have been mildly dickish, but he's not an asshole. He was specifically told our sister didn't want you there, right or wrong, ask me not to let you there. I'm going to let you know I do. Not want there. Yeah. Hold that painful. It's awful. I feel for him. I really do.

Speaker

I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh speaking, that of characters who. That uncle was that gave the funeral information away. Like, come on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, that was kind of a dick move too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That was such a dick move. That's more of a mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, he's a. dick, yeah. Thank you for bringing. Him very minor character, but let's not leave anyone out. Let's not leave anyone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Very minor critical.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Michael, what did the Internet have to say with the comments that would move us on any on any of this or or?

Host: Michael:

Are we in agreement here? No, I I think you guys really hit on the most, the most of the things. I mean, they really got caught on the whole. Who's the funeral for kind of thing and I'll say probably 2/3 were strongly. You're not the asshole. You did exactly what it was. Most of you did a great job. It's a hard place to be in. It sucks, but you, you know, it's important. That when you leave this world that your wishes, your final wishes are followed and you know whether that's in a state and how it gets divvied up, or what what occurs at your wedding or what occurs at your funeral, or who is invited or not. If you have specifically said, you know, you're counting on somebody to do that in your stead. Just like. Any other kind of thing, if you were, you know, on life support and you had wishes regarding how that is handled, you would want to be treated the same way and. And so they made. That argument, one of. My very favorite examples in there is Ernest Hemingway and his polydactyl cats. So when he died.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know you're going to somehow bring this together and I'm just super impressed that I that I know you're going to bring this Ernest Hemingway, and it's probably that to cats back to this. And I just want to ahead of time compliment you on your ability to bring these things together. So go ahead, Michael. Free.

Host: Michael:

So Ernest Hemingway lived in Key West. He had a number of houses, but one of his favorites was in Key West. And when he was down there, he had polydactyl cats. They just have extra toes. So they have 6-7 toes, whatever they look like. They're wearing mittens all the time because their paws are so big. And he loved them. And so when? He died, he. Left that house to his cats and he left a trust to provide for them in perpetuity. See, so much so that those cats. Now I believe there's like 60 or 80 of them and Key West kind of hates them, but it is his final wishes. Like, no, these cats were important to me. I want them taken care of. And so there you go. You can go check out the polydactyl cats. PETA had to go and investigate because they're concerned about the welfare of the cats. And what they found were a bunch of chill cats, very happy and loving life. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Amazing. Thank you Peter, for checking on them and I am glad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's wonderful. I just. I'm. I like it. So I must assume then that, like, part of this trust is like they have like like people going and like change litter boxes and shit like that and feed them and make sure they're like well cared for. That's that's amazing. There will come a time when there will be far too many cats for the space, but OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That. They are living, living the best life.

Speaker

Sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like does he is spaying and neutering OK like now what are the rules? Well, let's not go too far down this rabbit hole, but I. Will look this up later. Indeed, yeah. Are there any other insights that the Internet had here? There are some people obviously thought she was, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, a lot of them questioned what the original posters relationship was like with John and if she was more on the sisters side than John's. And so this was like one final thing. And then the the ones that were kind of the outliers were saying everybody sucks here. Like your sister tried, but ultimately kind of got one final dig in. Whether it was intentional or not to cut John out of an opportunity, and John was definitely an asshole for showing up, and you're the least asshole person here. But the way you've written this, it's very lopsided and one sided and. Effective. And so they think that like it'd be interesting to hear John's perspective and then the rest of the family and the uncle, they can all suck it. So it's essentially.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, it's interesting we didn't. We didn't we we've been going out of our way to try to make sure to get to all the minor characters here, but we never rendered judgment on the deceit. That's an interesting point that was raised here. Should she have?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Why have we taken her in a little bit more of a glowing light? Because of her olive branch opportunities. And so there there's a lens here where she takes the final dig and goes fuck you and watch that song out and gets the last word.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, but in the end. But in the end. Yeah, you know what, Michael? That has moved me a little bit in the end. If you really wanted to extend that olive branch over and over and over again, and she really recognized the harm done in the end, would it have been a kinder thing to have not made that rule in the 1st place? I don't know. By the way, I'm not judging her for this. I'm not willing to call her an asshole or even even disparage her in any way. But it's an interesting question that I think I'm going to. End up like. Marinating on for a little. While. Here whether she should have just shut up and not said anything and allowed him to choose as he saw fit.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I imagine this was definitely a a decision made out of hurt. I tried, I tried, I tried. Fine. I'm done. I'm really done. But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure. But I I moved a. Little bit on that to maybe not. Like, give her sainthood on this but and I think I think that may have been a flaw, but I'm not willing to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Call it an asshole, or anything close to that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, no, I agree anyway.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thank you both for another riveting debate and eclipse into the Internet forums and life or death decisions, I guess.

Speaker

Right.

Host: Michael:

Remember, moralities up in shades of Gray and not just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Black or white, and keep in mind. That life is. A terminal condition that it actually transmitted. Thank you, Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We have we have a. Michael, we have a bonus conversation, but you're supposed to. Say stuff first, right?

Host: Michael:

Yeah, sure. So like, please follow and share her test using your family and. Friends and as always, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation is that see you. On the flip side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. MacBride MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

And now here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. Dan, we've talked a little bit about wrapping up this is this, is it, this is the end you have made it to the end of season 1. I know this is really and it will try something out and I'm really curious that the listeners hear it. They like it and they want more great Dan, if you have no idea what.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks for speaking with us listeners.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Coming so if you like it and it works well, we're going to keep it. If if it's a total flop, forgive me and we'll ditch it. Yeah, here we go. I have 5 rapid fire questions that are this or that questions. They have to pick one. And if you're compelled to give an explanation, keep it tight. Cause I got five. I know. Keep it tight. Ready.

Host: Michael:

It's me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You ready for your this? Or that? Yeah. OK. Sweet or Savory Lake or ocean? No. You gotta take it to this or that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Avery. Yes. No. Yes, the answer. Well, I I want to say ocean, but I live in Minnesota.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no. Choose one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I have to say Lake, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You don't, OK?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

asshole ocean. Go ocean go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright, plane or car? OK, romcom or docudrama.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Plane. No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. Again, it's just that you have. To pick one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A begrudging ROM com.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of begrudging romcom, say more. No. Oh, my God. All right, last one. Rain or snow? All right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I no, I don't think. No, keep going. No cold rain, cold rain as we are having right now here in Minnesota. Cold rain is the worst weather there is and warm rain is warm. Rain is fine, but the colder no.

Host: Michael:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, it's just chilled.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You to the bone, right? No, no, no. Alright. Alright, well, that's how this or that. Thank you for our bonus compensation.

Host: Michael:

Rap.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks so much for listening to this. Our last episode of Season 1. We're taking a break. We're we're we're out for two weeks. We'll be playing some of our our Michael. We'll be playing some of our deep tracks from previous from the previous season before we start our new season and we're we're hoping to hear from you MacBride. We have some things planned for the next season.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We do. I'm really excited before I tell you about that, I just want to say and hearty congratulations on, I don't know, 40 plus episodes and. In one this is a little bust season, very excited to have done this with you and I thank you for all the time that you spent with me. Just talk about, you know, clinical content here or the content that comes up in our clinical. Conversations is probably about. There you go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In season 2, we're hoping to find some willing participants to have. To add to this clinical conversation, different voices, different specialty. These we're trying to curate some folks who will bring us something humor and maybe aren't a little afraid of some curse language. So we want to keep it light. We want to keep it entertaining, but we're hand selecting some guests for you. If there are topics and things that you're looking forward to or something that you think we've gotten incorrect, point us to the episode. We'd love to kind of go back and rehash and get it right. So that's that's coming in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Love, love, love. Love our mail bag questions, love our mailbag criticisms, and we'll see you, and we'll see you in the new year.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

HI'm doctor Gayle MacBride. Good morning Dan. I'm so glad you're here with me this. Good morning. This is Dan Kessler. He is a clinical psychologist and my business partner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Welcome. Hi. Hi. Today, we're going to. We're going to go back to exploring the Internet and trying to figure out who's the asshole. I, I love these opportunities to kind of use these questions as a jumping off point for talking about some of the really fascinating and important. Issues and relationships, Michael, thank you so much for bringing us another, yet another opportunity to really explore psychological stuff through the lens of these questions. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You often call them conundrum. They're common.

Host: Michael:

From. Yeah, well, thanks both of you. Welcome. Good morning. As you as always on these Sundays, I enjoy this as well. I know you guys talk about how much time or how much you enjoy the chat. I thoroughly enjoy it. It's always fun to hear what you guys come up with. So for any of the newbies out there, if you don't know what am I the asshole is and short someone on the Internet has posted.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Amen could lighten this way.

Host: Michael:

Scenario and asked readers who's the asshole here and that's what doctors MacBride and Kessler are hoping to help us determine if there's any identifiable information in the post. I've changed that and made a little more discrete. And if you're new, you should also know to stick around through the credits. We always have a bonus. Conversation. I can see their gears turning right now trying to figure out what. They might ask.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One another. Yeah, that's usually a surprise too. We don't. We try not to plan this out too much. We just want you to have a little bit of a window into how we have these conversations. We want them to be natural and organic and frankly, just want them to be.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this. I'm Speaking of being spontaneous and organic, so let's go. Today's prompt is amazing, asshole for kicking my parent out of my house and saying This is why I was so fucked up as a kid.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Gauntlet thrown.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know what? I, I want to immediately say no. But like, we probably should hear the fact.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, I like this. Here's some controversy. I must say. Yes, there is nothing good that can come of throwing an accusation bomb and then walking out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you know, I think there are time. I, I, I think there times when someone recognizes that like, you know what, I've tried to maintain a relationship with a toxic with toxic family of words or toxic parents long enough. And I'm just not willing to do it anymore. You're right. I think it's being vindictive is generally speaking not good. But there's a part of me is like.

Speaker

What's good?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So part of all of this is like ohh

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. So I you know, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But it doesn't pitch you anywhere in the. Long run, but hear the detail.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to. I'm going to agree with you in general, being vindictive doesn't get you anywhere in the long run. I'm. I'm. I'm really interested in hearing the fact pattern here with the with the awareness that we're hearing one side, we're hearing the side of the person who thinks their parents are assholes and may or may not be realistic or rational about it. So I'm already moving on my position. Which I came up without actually hearing the facts. Michael, would you share with us the actual facts of this story?

Host: Michael:

Sure. So this is what you got over the weekend. I have my parents over for dinner and my 10 year old daughter wanted to play a song she'd been practicing on her keyboard. She was excited to show us, and while it wasn't perfect, I thought she did a great job. As soon as she finished, I started clapping about my parents. They started laughing. Not a little chuckle, but full on belly laughing. My mom asked if it was her first time playing and my dad actually said a dog could have played it better. I watched my daughter's face fall and she said quietly that she had had two lessons and that playing with both hands was hard. They just laughed harder. I saw red. I stood up, took their cups, told them to get the hell out of my house, my mother. Told me that. They hadn't finished their drinks yet and that they wanted to hear another sign. I wasn't having it. I told them to get their stuff and get the fuck out. My dad huffed and my mom had the nerve to say I was being too sensitive and that I can't protect her from the real world. I shot back that this wasn't preparing her, it was just them being bullies. The same reason I was so messed up growing up. They finally laughed and I sat down with my daughter and told her how proud I was and asked her to play it again. She did and then. I made sure she knew that. Really great. After they left, I told my parent. I texted my parents and said we're taking a break until they can act like decent people. My dad replied. They hadn't. He didn't raise me to be so precious. Then my sister called doing her usual brown nosing routine, telling me I was out of line and cuddling my kid. I told her to fuck herself and hung up. Who's the asshole here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. So OK. So we're just going to roll back a few minutes.

Speaker

But. Well, because my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Was I right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Back pattern was that he stormed out and saying horrible things about our childhood. But if if the conversation went.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

One. Unpause. Ohh, Michael. Michael. Do we have the gender on OP here? If we don't decide, it's fine.

Host: Michael:

Father, father, it doesn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh this is dad. Ohh. OK OK. I need a I made a gender assumption.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is dad. Huh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you for checking in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You did and I jumped in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I did good because you didn't hear it the same way. OK. OK, so this this parent, this father I had imagined had delivered this information in kind of a different way. The the headline felt it's kind of clickbaity in the sense of like. He said, you know, you fucked me up with a kid and and I'm outta. Here, the fax is delivered, suggest a bit more rational of rolling out of of conversation and we are limited because OP it doesn't have anyone else to collaborate. How this went down and yet I can totally see this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the writer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As something that would happen, and in that case, I love that dad stood up for his daughter, daughter, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, daughter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And and her effort and wow. And that sister toxic. If you weren't there, you're not part of this conversation. I agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Now I now I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth and say, yeah, I know big shocker but and say that we are hearing this through his lens and I am frequently that that that lens has all sorts of things to it that make it not accurate. Yeah. And however, as described wow, I mean, you know, kids. And I'm not saying that we should be like, always telling kids that they're amazing and wonderful when they're clearly not. But when a 10 year old is doing something that's really special for a 10 year old and yeah, they're going to make mistakes and they could do this like, you celebrate the effort that they put into it and you recognize that a 10 year old. The 10 year old and you don't have expectations of them to do like brilliant music. They're 10 years. You know? Yeah, those of us who have ever who have had children in band, and I'm going on like a world band like those early band concerts, they're awful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right with two lessons.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't know if I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm an objective. Oh, and object objective, musicality standpoint. They're love to listen.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To they. They are. No, they are. They are, they are. And if any of my kids are, if any of my kids are listening, I loved your band concerts, those 6th grade band concerts were special. Yeah, they were special. No. And they are they. But and and and as parents said you sit. You sit through them and they but you. But you love that your kids are putting the effort into it and you and you see that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

These kids up on stage playing, playing instrument.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, you see the progression over the years from the 6th grade band concerts, where your your ears are like bleed. Thing and they're painful. But the kids really putting it all into it. And then you get to see these, like advanced band concerts, when they when they're like graduating high school. And then the music is beautiful. And like, they get, they get there from those early concerts and through the encouragement. And this is a child who, without that encouragement, Grandma and Grandpa are never going to get to hear that later. Answer it's sad. It saddens me to hear this this response. Really does. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Although I mean, it doesn't sound like it's a new pattern and that is that is problematic and I think we do a better job now as parents understanding. Like you said, we're celebrating effort. And not necessarily outcome in these parents. We're going to put them in a certain cohort, have been taught to celebrate outcome and not effort. Right. And so I think we see a shifting in parenting and understanding how you encourage kids without coddling them or telling them they're always right. But you do celebrate that. Like Wow, honey 2 lessons in and you're playing with. Hand that that sounds really hard. That enough and alone. That recognition of that effort would make that 10 year old beam and skip up the stairs toward bedtime like it's not that hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And and you know, we've certainly seen this in traditions where a kid has promise in some area and a negative parent and negative coach, someone who isn't, who isn't supportive and caring and not in the Pollyannaish way, but in the recognition of the work and the recognition of the challenge is. In a really but in a positive way. I mean what a?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Missed opportunity for these.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Missed opportunity for these parents with these grandparents. Rather it it it it it, it really is. No, I no, I mean I'm. I'm as you mentioned early on I'm not necessarily a fan of going off on people and telling you my life get it on my at the same time like as a dad like you go after my kid and make my kid.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Feel like shit when they try hard, like you're going to get it. You're you. You very well might get. This reaction before you get the hard. Yeah. No, no, no. Like, like, like I can, I can say, as the psychologist here. Well, there, you know, there may have been a better way to have phrased that, to teach your parents. And there may have been a better way of setting the boundaries as a. That I'd be like you. Yeah, I'm going to like.

Host: Michael:

Sorry. Yeah, I think, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is the this is. A challenge and I and remember back and I don't you probably haven't read the book, but I one of the books that I actually just adore and love for me it was life and perspective changing like and I'm really not overstating. And and really I'm not. It was one of those books I read and and things just fell into places as Brene Brown's rising strong. Like if.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I didn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Copy of it in the office. It’s broken and battered and and and fall open in places. It's got highlighting and underlining and and sticking out that like this is a book that is so meaty and has so much in it. And there's a there's. A. Story that I'm going to maybe paraphrase and and. I can link the chapter in the show notes or something because it’s really good and she's talking about feeling called out and embarrassed in a in a particular situation. And the way this particular other person calls her out, she then rises to to respond. And I remember reading her response. It's the story of Pamela, if anyone. If anyone's read the book, but again, I'll, I'll we'll link it in the show notes. She writes this beautiful e-mail. Living Pamela an absolute new one and it is. It is a thoughtful, vengeful smack down in this beautiful way. I mean this, this woman just exudes strength. And. And and just it's. It's a wonderfully written e-mail and but she has the wisdom to to pause before she sends it. I think she shares it with her therapist, who makes a makes a lovely appearance here and there in the book. Her name is Sanna and sits down and shares it. And therapists disagree and just takes the wind out of Renee's sails. What do you mean? And you know, and she?

Speaker

She.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Really. She asked. This question that that's so wonderful, which is essentially when you wrote that, how were you hoping that the reader would feel? And Renee says I wanted her to feel small, like I did. And I was like, oh, so it's a great question to keep in the back of your mind when you communicate with someone, the words you use and. How you want to say them, what is not only what is it that you want to convey, but how do you want them to feel as you say, and then choose your words accordingly. Because if your goal is to make your parents feel you know 2 inches high, is that really going to produce the results? Is that going to teach them anything, or is your goal here simply to set a boundary around your daughter? And how do you do that, and what language do you need to use to do that? I'm laying clearly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In getting getting back to the story again, as I talk out of both sides, I'm out. Throughout this podcast, if his goal is to convince his parents that they shouldn't act this way, if he failed because parents.

Speaker

You're kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bullying them back? Really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Because parents essentially say you're being precious and wimpy, and then the calls the sister to to to badger him to and they they they it it only deepens their commitment to being dicks to kids and grandkids. So that doesn't change their behavior in any way. If anything, it heartens their hearts further. And it's doing anything.

Speaker

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Positive if his goal is to end his relationship with his parents, he's potentially going a good way towards. That yeah, yeah.

Speaker

Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's that's the long. No, that's the long term goal to to discontinue the rate. But if your long term goal is to discontinue relationship with someone, you're still your better choice is to say I'm choosing not to be in a relationship you any longer maybe they'll become a day when I'm when I'm ready to but these are the things that I want to see before I'm willing to be. We talked about boundaries. This is a good place to say like boundaries aren't things you tell other people they have to do. Boundaries are things you're saying for yourself. So, like, I'm not saying you can't smoke, you smoke all you want, but I won't be around you if you smoke. That's my choice. You could be as negative as. You want. I won't allow you around my daughter. If you're good, you do. You but not but not in my space. You explain this better than I do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and and and this is this is difficult. So that's OK. No, you did a good job, I think. I think it's difficult though when you set. Up, not goals.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You can't be a dick around my daughter. So how do how do we? Measure that how we know that's no longer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What would you set? What would you set?

Speaker

So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here's the goal. Well, first of all, I would tell you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I tell my clients not goals are for dead people and people in comas. They're better at not doing things. Than we ever are. But so then and I have a weird way of thinking about this. I think about it in the sense of art. If you were an art class, can talk about positive and negative space, something that's not there versus something that's sick, right. And so I don't mean positive and negative in terms of good or bad. I just mean the presence or the absence of something. And so the absence of something and not goal is problematic. It's big old hole.

Host: Michael:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you. Know if I tell.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't be a dick is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You. Yeah. Don't be a dick. Then how do I know you're not being a dick? It's the absence of dickishness. But the moment that even the hint of Dickishness shows up, we're done. Right? So that hasn't it. It. It's problematic because we can't really act. On that, then, and so if we start to think about the presence of something, then what does that look like? And so, you know, we can reestablish a relationship once you and I can have some conversations about what's OK and what's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not OK to. Say to my daughter when she wants to present you something that she's proud of, or we can have a conversation. Once we engage in some family therapy and the therapist agrees that we've made some some progress on our communication like these are measurable, definable things a bit more. Way and then just don't be a dick? Like we need to heal this relationship. We need to we this needs to do some work. I need to be understood by by you. If if if OP wants a relationship.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If if Dad wants the other option. If if that. Yeah, I mean we we don't. There's a reality here. We don't have to have a relationship with our family. We can choose not to now again if we're choosing not to. I don't know that this is the best way to do it. It's not to you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, it it's definitely not the best way to do it, and I think we have ourselves, we find ourselves in a really interesting time where people are much more free than any other time to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, I'm done. I'm not. I'm not going to do anymore. And then they do cut off family of origin and you, I hear in my clinical office a lot of distress around this and unfortunately, a lot of those times people come and go. I don't know what I did. I don't understand. And they won't tell me now that may be genuinely true. Maybe they lack insight. Maybe they've never been told. Maybe they've been told a million times and they disagree. But there are times where folks sit in their office and go. I don't understand why this child of mine basically has estranged themselves, and I have no power to to fix. Which I do find a little problematic. I mean, if you're going to sever that relationship, love to to make it clear to that person why that relationship has been separate rather than just. To a piece about them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm I'm of many conflicting thoughts around this cuz that there are times when I think it's appropriate to say you're harmful to me and I don't want you in my life. There are times when it's appropriate to say, feel like you've been harmful and I'm willing to have you in my life, but I want. See some changes and there are times when like you choose to keep someone in your life because our relationships aren't going to be all good and not and not to say we want to keep someone around who's abusive or harmful. But there are times when, like, we look at the balance of relationships and we see that this person's going to let us down from time to time around this issue. And we talked about this in the dangerous. Play with this in in couples relations. 100% of partners are going to at some point this week, we're going to disappoint our partner. Yeah, absolutely. There going to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Be times where I'm going to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

100% of the time, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

100 No no of 100 of partners, yes, 100% of our partners. Hundred really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We'll, we'll we'll have disappointment existing and then just. To be clear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Disappointment exists in relationship. Yeah, no disappointment exists in relationships. There are times when we, when we, when we fall, we where, where they're going to be times when we fall short of being fully engaged or present or the best partner we can be. And the times that our partners can do the same. Same thing with parents and sometimes figuring.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know what you're saying.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What the difference between like having been failed or having failed someone and it crossing a line into this is irreparable and the harm to me is greater than any potential benefit. It's like there's not a I mean sometimes there are some bright. Lines here of. But frequently they're they're not, and and where in this Gray area do we choose to say now I'm being harmed too much? Now I'm not harmed too much. Now the relationship is too damaging.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And and it is interesting because I often think that as adults, we're willing to tolerate some of that, and you fuck with my kids. We're done. And so, you know, oftentimes those folks who are in my office saying, I know what happened, they are grandparents, right. And so I do wonder how often something like this has happened. And the parents like, you know, it's one thing for you to hurt me and it's. A total another for you to go after my kid. Like you were. Saying earlier and you're just a peek out. I mean, I forgot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sure I think that's exactly. I think that's exactly what happened here is that his dad's been berated by his parents so many times and he's tolerated. He's put up with it. He's dealt with it, then the parents rated his.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know, I hope Dad took an opportunity to talk about disappointment and how difficult relationships can be and how you weather that. You know, there's there's an opportunity for the daughter to learn something, albeit it's going to be a hard something. And it would have been preferable if that never happened for her. And right when these things happen.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What do you want to do about it? Here are options here. Our choices. Just 10, it's not like she gets a choice and whether or not she continues her relationship with her grandparents. But it's also tough because she knows her grandparents and knows they exist. And now, what questions does she have? Like, this is a really delicate family situation and. What do you? Tell your kid now that we're not being ground group anymore.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And she and yeah, I mean this. This. I was thinking that same thing that this daughter like if she loves and wants to spend time with Grandma and Grandpa now to say well, you know Grandma and Grandpa are going to like hurt you by their attitude towards towards kids and by their negativity. So I'm not going to let you be around them which is also going to hurt you like that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You don't have. Fascinating perspectives on the world and and to say that she doesn't say well, right? But I know Grandma and Grandpa are this, this and this, and maybe she hasn't internalized nearly as much as the father believes. She's internalized no. Maybe it's the pattern. Over time, he's really concerned about. But like, sometimes kids are like, yeah, I know. It's just kind of fucked and I don't. I don't pay them a whole lot of mine. You know that I was doing this piano or settle because of something to do and you know, conversation was so awkward. Who knows? Like 10 knows could be pretty and playful sometimes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I am, I think with this situation where I maybe take some issue with OP is that this happened without plan for like if you're going to sever a relationship.

Speaker

M.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Out of anger in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The moment should be planful. Yeah, it should be well thought out. Like anything. Any major thing when you go off on a person that's not the place to. To do it, you have a conversation around that he has some parameters that he wants his parents. I'll be around to you and I'll bring my daughter around. But what I need from you is is to feel for her to. So yeah, for me to feel like you're supportive of her and this is what that looks like. So to put it in in in MacBride, in terms so that using the positive. Space instead of. The negative space, which you know his going off and cutting off. I don't know. That was a great, great role modeling or for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

His daughter? No, no, I mean his daughter absolutely says OK. I know my dad has my back, which is good. It certainly didn't learn how to navigate other other than to shut down Stonewall. And then let's let's pick up the the the OP's sister for a moment, please call.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, we, as you mentioned, we don't want to forget the the minor characters.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The minor character. To talk about last time, you know, letting her off the hook would be problematic here. Getting pulled in an interaction that you were not present for and does not directly impact you at your business. So she had no call getting involved in this in any way. It says a couple of things maybe about the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dynamics in this relationship and maybe because what she's afraid of, you know, afraid to piss off these parents, needs to please them. And so, you know, comes in. Probably. Then on her parents side.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We talked about within relationships and communications triangles are bad. I say this a lot if you triangles are not health stations. So now the parents are triangulating in the daughter who is a willful or the sister who is a willful participate in this triangle communication. He wasn't there, so doesn't know what happened. He doesn't get to. And I and I think that whether she's correct or incorrect, I mean, let's just for a moment assume that OP is completely off base and misinterpreted everything his parents said and was totally wrong. Still not OK for the sisters.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Step in. OK, so let's massage that for a moment. Is it OK? I want to challenge you. Just for a little bit. Is it OK? Sister says.

Host: Michael:

All right, all right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, bro. You had mom and dad over the other day for dinner. I heard it ended really badly, and I just want you to think about it for a moment. And I want you to know Mom and Dad are really hurt by by how you find that. But this little triangle she still. Wasn't there and?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but, but she's not because she's not. She's she's asking him to think about it. She's not telling him what he did was wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She still pulled by mom and dad. OK, you're cool with the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm never really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Angle if it's, if it's got rounded edges.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hurt. I would. I would massage a little bit. What you're saying is like if she calls someone says hey, like hey, I'm really concerned like mom and dad really hurt by this thing that happened and and and I know that you all have had conflict and I kind of want to know like what happened like I'm hearing from them but I'm really curious as to what happened I might be OK with that because she's not. Coming back and saying you were wrong. What you said?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She's not trying to create a triangle. She's trying to create some.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. If she's curious.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then the the the relationship between the primary 2 not triangulating and creating a third.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If she is, if she is truly curious and has question and approaches it this way, maybe there's a place for it. I still the way this way it's described, you know, calling him up to sell me, telling he's wrong. Yeah, not OK. We also one of the problems with this whole scenario is we don't know the way. It went down and I'm just like, I'm going to go on a limb here. Alright. So as described, parents are assholes and he made some choices that he shouldn't have made. And the sisters that ask as as described sisters and Apple as described.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So like, as described, asshole. This is asshole. Oh, he is sucky.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OP made some bad choices here. Yeah, he. Yeah. I mean, he did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My OK, not. My other business just a little bit asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Can do the right thing here for sure. Parents are assholes and this is just an asshole. But you know what? I don't know how, like all of these are always tinged with my interpretation of what happened. I'm only presenting one side.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. But you know what? I'm I'm. I don't know that I want to render a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Verdict this time because there is no corroborating information that says Paul and Tom.

Speaker

There's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. There's just too. Like I. There's too much. I see this all the time with people who, you know, person a means X person B. Here's where it gets mad, because how dare you say this thing? The principle. I didn't say that. Yes, you did. No. And I think that, you know. Our interpretations are a mix of or. What happened is a mix of what happened in our interpretation of that occurrence. And while if we go with OPS interpretation, yes, mom and Dad are now that grandparents are assholes, sisters an asshole and he's not an asshole. He made some poor choices, but more than some of the other ones we've dealt with.

Speaker 2

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MMM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, Oh no, I want to see the videotape. Like I want to see the instant replay of this event, and I want to see if it really was like, I don't mean to doubt him. And at the same time, like certainly their parents were like this kind of want to. I'm curious. I'm really this leaves.

Host: Michael:

Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like the curiosity. I like where you're going with this. I agree. As as posted I would go parents and sister. Definitely asshole OP. Definitely. On the sucky side of things, mostly because of the communication and even if in my head I use that doubling rule that we sometimes are taught and I double the level of. Anger because of the amount of cursed language in there, I double it and I would I would move that. Maybe sucking this up to dickishness or ashless? Just because mildly asshole ish. Because because I suspect it didn't go down well. It was not planful and it was from a place of anger instead of productive dynamic change. So I think I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're you're not. You're you're. You're more willing to. You're more willing to render verdict here than I am.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm. Firm. A little bit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

More we're the we're Michael. Where'd the?

Host: Michael:

Internet fall, where you had you had kind of two, but the interesting thing happened here. So like it was not the asshole your hero essentially was like that kind of like you did the thing. Everybody wishes they could do kind of thing. But the the minute that you got below the initial response. It was a much more nuanced question about like, yeah, but like. Really, that's not the way. That's not the example you want to set for your daughter and you know you should have. It's not the time and place to suffer a relationship like, you know, maybe you needed a time out and that's fine. But like, you need to come back around and have a bigger conversation, kind of so like, it was interesting. Like people will jump into like, yeah, you did the. Thing and then it was like. Well, I don't know. And so it's kind of interesting to see. That and then interesting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

How those don't get uploaded quite as much as.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But this is this is the reality of such things. Extreme responses are satisfied, and the and the the more nuanced responses are less exciting and less satisfying.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Less thrilling, so that sort of extreme things get more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, they're left carried by the algorithm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, exactly. So the course.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's sort of how we're getting our news is really the. These high impact, polarizing responses, yeah.

Host: Michael:

The the other big category was everybody sexier, which openly addressed like dude like that. That might have felt satisfying in the moment. But like, that wasn't the way to react. And you know, the the parents definitely should not have responded that way. And the sister really sucks. And then some people jokingly said and the daughter. And lessons and then said too soon.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Too, she did nothing.

Host: Michael:

I know I thought it was funny though. And and then the other kind of interesting thing that was definitely a minority in there. But some people said I'm calling assholes on this. This is what you wish you had said. But there's no way this went down this way, which I was like, whoa, that's kind of interesting to think about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we do assume 1:00, we we you know we assume. But we assume that these are actual stories that people have actually had happened. We some of this fuck undoubtedly in our 40 something episodes we've done so far, at least one of those was something that someone just wrote up never had.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or wish this is how they would, what they would have said and how they would have said it, laying the smack down. And it's really. Yeah. No, I hear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

That for sure, like the George Costanza jerk store thing. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, they could have very well been.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it's a. It's it? Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to disagree with those with those responses. The, the, the, the vindictive, like angry part of me was like you go girl and then enter speaking. And then, like, the more nuanced thinking. Let me ask you know, so I actually agree with the Internet. Here I want that.

Host: Michael:

And and they all. They all did come back around. Almost every one of the threads at some point said you really need to let your daughter find her relationship with her grandparents. Like, don't let your relationship with them color her opportunity. Like if they truly are that horrendous, she'll know that and she'll cut off relations with them and stop lying to do stuff with them so and well. Thank you both for another riveting debate and to and a glimpse into the collective conscious, the Internet forums. I remember morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white, and sometimes you can't even render a brick.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh my gosh, when this this one was really cringey from from as the kids say from from multiple perspectives. So I appreciate you bringing in something that that really challenged us this morning, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Really. Yeah. Well, please follow and share our test views and the podcast platforms, the neighbors. Friends and maybe your family as well, so they can get an insight into some of these things. And as always, stick around through the credits for whatever our bonus conversation will be.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That you something, I don't know. Just ask you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I got something so on my on my bookshelf is an unfortunate. Infinitely large number of books that I've never actually. Yeah. Yeah, my favorite one. I forget the exact title, but it's something. It's about teenagers. And it's like the title is something along the line of I hate you. Get out of my life. But would you please first take Cheryl and me to the mall, which I bought in part because I understand it's a really good book. And in part because I love the title. But I've never actually read it. So it's my favorite book that I've never read. Do you have a favorite book on on your shelf that you've not actually read but you bought? Because like, this is a really cool book, I really like it when I'm actually.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Number of books I haven't read. Yet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know I got. I got parking any of many of them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Staffing. Rolling. I'm. I'm vamping a little bit. I mean, I think the one I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can edit out the vamping Michael, you can edit out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The damping the one I'm most excited to read that has been sitting on my shelf for an embarrassing really long period of time, but I think it's going to be worth the read. Is Robin Handley to pose stress wisely, and it's all about the idea of stress isn't bad for you with how we handle stress and you know. So we've gotten the wrong medical advice, you know, get the stress out of your life. That's really. But instead, how do you create resiliency so that you can weather stress and actually then some of that can be positive for for longer term?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Health outcomes. I love that I should get that book on my. Shelf and not read. It too, no, but no. That's exactly it. Because people, when working with folks, they sometimes they're coming in with, you know, I'm depressed because of these things and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And not read it. I can just spend. Some time I can visit you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, that's true. But often like the goal isn't to make those things in your life go away or to eliminate those things in your. Like the goal is to build up the defenses that you have, because we're not going to be able to make those things go away. But if we pull better with them and frequently and I've seen this like depression, clear anxiety can clear, marriage problems can clear even if the underlying thing that seems to have caused those problems isn't any better because they have learned how to cope with them.

Speaker 2

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I love that I love that book.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right. It's right. No, that's great. It’s about creating resilience and how do you teach resilience? And that really is kind of doctor handling.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I've not read it either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And how how do we create this resilience? And she's got this five factor model that that's really wonderful. And she's actually an entertaining speaker. So if you get to the chat chance to watch a YouTube clip of her, I really highly recommend it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember. On the yeah, on the topic of resilience, I remember reading many years ago about resilience and what a child needs, what a person needs to develop resilience when they're not in a really challenging or awful situation and what at least this research that's now 25 years old and based on my recollection of what I read 25 years.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ago was you need one person. You need one person in your life who's there for you? Yeah. Uncle and grandmother. A friend of a. You know, a best friend's parent. Whenever there's someone in your life who's there and present and caring, it can create that reverse. Not 100% of the time, but that seemed to be the factor. That was potent in creating resilience and people are. Difficult to tell. I would.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say, handle it for would argue there's more, but check out the. Website See what she does.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That nice plug for her. We we no kick back here? Yeah, she didn't. She didn't even know The thing is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Well, again, I appreciate everyone and their listenership and support. This is just a gentle reminder that we are going to take a couple of weeks off here coming up soon. And while we appreciate your listenership for our season 1, we're cooking up some fun stuff for season 2. Stay tuned, but not before Dan and I get a little time. Out of the office, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, we're, we're, we're essentially shutting down. We will, we will still be around if people make. Referrals will still be around to respond to referral requests and things like that. We're taking off 2 weeks for to spend time on our own ourselves and our families, and we'll be back fresh to work with folks in the New year and we'll be back fresh to begin our pot to reinvigorate the podcast in the New Year. So we encourage you to do the same if you're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the game plan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If you're able to do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And in the meantime, we're going to drop some episodes at you, our lovely podcast host, who loves all things data are is going to find out episodes that you haven't listened to. Maybe. Maybe you missed, and we're going to bring those to you in the break. Feel free to write us through that mail bag on the on the web page so that we can have some fresh comments. Let us know what we missed in the episodes or if there's content or a topic that you want us to dive into. There's a lot of stuff on this thread, sometimes having a little bit of a direction to aim is really helpful. Let's make season 2. About what? You know, maybe interests are listening public.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And as we look back to season 1 in some of these, as Michael said earlier, or we'll say later, least loved like think of these as the deep cuts, the album, the album Gems that didn't become super popular, but were great songs and for whatever reason didn't like become the hit. But there are some of those deep tracks that are really great. So we're going to share with you again. Deep tracks that are the rethink are great, even if they didn't get the same listenership so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's right. Sorry, I tell myself. Is, you know you jumped down the band when they were starting to get popular, but you missed the early stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This early stuff, so we're going to show you. The early stuff all.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, so we've got one. More fresh episode going to be coming your way before we take a break and send you some reruns.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners. 

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The chances of me remembering are low regardless.

Host: Michael:

Fair enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, when we listen to our podcast that I did, I don't remember half. Of what I said, you know, sometimes I'm really surprised it's. Kind of funny, like that's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That sounds pretty smart.

Host: Michael:

Right this guy's very insightful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He’s fucking brilliant.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should hire him right and some of them like, oh, I hope we get to this topic within this because I don't remember if I talked about it. Ohh good. Good. Or damn, there's a missed opportunity.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, that would actually be kind of a fun thing to like. Revisit like, OK, you know, this is like, for instance, if you were to have tackle, if we we if we took your most popular one and then we're like OK, now that this has been out there for a year. Yeah, has our opinion changed on this or do we have any additional thoughts or whatever?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think our opinion is going to change, but we might go. We missed this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're not. We need something we've done that. We've gone back and say we missed this. Hey, this is our first ever cold.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Open instead of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, look at that. All right, Michael, take it. Take take us into the podcast. This is a great cold open. I like it. We.

Host: Michael:

Ohh wait. No no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just keep it in all. Edit it a bit, you know, but make it. I like the cold open.

Host: Michael:

Hmm, interesting I don't. Know how I feel about it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You threw him. He's a planner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know, I know, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan and I just started chatting as we do and jump into the middle of my school and my dear husband our podcast host is this ultimate planner who has wants a predictable set of of rules and.

Speaker

They.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And things to go according to plan. So I'm giving him a minute to kind of recombobulate.

Host: Michael:

I’ll roll with the punches here. But for people who are like, what the fuck is this? What we're going to do is somebody on the Internet has posted a scenario for us asking who's the asshole here. And Dan and Gayle are going to weigh in on their perspective for that. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I'm Dan Kessler. I'm a clinical psychologist with Veritas Psychology Partners, and I'm here with my with my business partner, Doctor Gayle MacBride. And we're going to, and we're looking forward to whatever Michael's got for us today. Gayle, thanks for coming today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Excited users. Excellent. Thanks for the role reversal, Dan. Wow, I usually am the one that jumps right in there cause that's on the step. We just don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're going off script today. We're off script.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Today it's going to be bumpy ride, folks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go, or a smooth ride.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like a good cup of coffee. There you go. Well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So yeah, thanks for joining us today. And Michael, you've got a you've got a conundrum for. Us. Go ahead. I'll have you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Need to explain what the fuck is going on here. We have not given him. An opportunity, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yes, we should. Michael, please explain what the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should probably not make it that look for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fuck is going on here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A lovely listener.

Host: Michael:

Well, and I'll say usually Dan and Gayle are the ones who don't know what's going on and I'm bringing a question on them. But clearly I'm a little befuddled now though. But that that's alright. So today's question this this is what the ask is, am I the asshole for asking my fiancee to skip this year's Christmas family vacation? Because our baby is due?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I need way more information. Whose family. Yeah. Yeah. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Any more info? Sometimes they jump in and we. Have like yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Again, we are off script and this is off script. We are not rendering it snap judgment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. Let's go. Michael, can we hear more about this one? This is interesting.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And what? I liked about this one is we have updates. We don't always get updates from the original poster. This one we do. So I'll give you initially what she offered, which is she's the female. Her fiance is male. They're both.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mobile.

Host: Michael:

Late 30s, they're expecting their first baby due December 30th, so you can tell this is not this year. For the past five years I've joined his family in Florida for part of Christmas, but typically return Christmas Day with my family. This year, his family is pressuring us to come despite his additional agreement initial agreement. Day. So he booked a flight December 15 to 28, reasoning that he'll be back with ample time before the due date, with my parents being oversea to a family emergency, I will be home alone at Christmas if he spends this time with his family, which is upsetting to me, especially since pregnancies can be unpredictable. His family has always kept their closeness subtle but noticeable. My fiancee has a strong fear of missing out. Making it hard to discuss every time I bring up wanting him to be here for support, it leads to a tense argument about prioritizing me over his parents. None left wondering if I'm in the wrong, wanting him to stay. Who's the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow. Yeah, I'm. I'm going to jump in really hard on this guy. Like, OK, so those let's celebrate Christmas. This is a really important time of year to spend time with family, baby or no. If spouse is staying behind and isn't cool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As a former pregnant woman.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are you going somewhere else for that holiday? Your ask should be with your spouse. Yeah, that. That, I mean pregnant or no. And then we can get to the whole discussion of babies. Do what they do and when they want to do it as a person who is pregnant. And due January 2nd and deliver the baby December 11th, this could be a big problem. We did not expect to have a baby at home for Christmas Day. And yet we did. And it was wonderful. Don't get me wrong, but you can't plan these things on December 10th. I had no idea that I was going to have a baby. On December 11th.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. I, you know, before we get to that, I like your dividing this up into like, let's talk about this even if she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here example.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not pregnant. Yeah, because the question comes up in this, this, this, this question comes up like, who gets priority? If it's a big holiday, be it Christmas or any other major family holiday. And my spouse can't go do I go anyway if my spouse can't go because they're my family and it's important to me and my family to be together. Where do I choose my spouse now? This goes away if, if, if. If she's like, you know, go see your family. I'm. I'm fine. Very. But if she. But if she's like, I want you here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course, of course you go to bars.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Christmas and I can't go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And he's deer in headlights like. Which do I do? I've got. I mean both direction.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And he kept like, which should I go? This is a this is a question that comes up a lot in who's whose family we spend Thanksgiving with. Yours or mine. Do we do we try to split the day up somehow. Who spend the do Christmas Eve with this family and Christmas Day with the other family like this. This is a frequent issue. Like you're you saying Gayle.

Host: Michael:

Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It ohh it it well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is go with this your your spouse takes priority over your family. That's. What do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know, one of the things I noticed when I listened back to our episodes, yes, is that sometimes we let a minor character a bit off the hook, and I go back and I listen to it. And I'm like, why didn't we talk about that? So I want to just take a moment and also talk about his family. They're being assholes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, yeah, totally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, I don't want to let his family off the hook here. They're aware of the pregnancy. They're aware of the complications. They're aware, I'm sure, of her family being out of the country. How dare you ask and even put your son in that position to have to choose. Yeah, not cool. So not cool in that case. Yeah. In that case, you you take it off Google. They're they are assholes in this scenario for sure. Because you should have said, hey, we understand you have a baby coming. And while we're really going to miss you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So before we even. Like answer about whether like they're the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Christmas and I'm hoping we can do a video call, which, by the way, you know, is a reasonable substitute for spending time. And we can we can have a bonus conversation about spending holidays and video calls. Maybe that's the content rough Rd. We don't have that planned yet either, so you know, but they they make a concession early and generously so that this, this spouse doesn't have to make the choice, even if they were pregnant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I. I am deeply troubled by his family invasion. Michael, did they allude? Did Opie allude to conflict between his family and her over the years? I don't remember. Now already, it's like.

Host: Michael:

No, no. Well, obvious conflict between them, just that they she she doesn't. The one thing that she says and she does clarify this later. So I'll explain it. She she says that she doesn't feel quite connected to them. And like there's a clear preference for their son which, you know I think it's also hard like I think that's an interesting conversation. Is like coming into. Family and then being the in laws, you know, how do you support that new person? But then, you know, obviously it's your child as well. So like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Right. And just as Doctor MacBride put herself in the position of the pregnant Opie here, I'm going to put myself momentarily in the position of the her in laws and imagining myself with a pregnant daughter-in-law.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I know what you're going to say. So I was going to go here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Who lives 1000 miles away and calling up my son and saying, are you asshole kidding me? No, you're not coming out here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh oh, you. Didn't go where I thought you would.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I would not. I would tell them you stay. You stay home with your wife.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And look at Ant. There's an Ant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And would it be OK if we join? You rather than ask you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure, sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Terribly. What if we came up with would said, would your wife be cool with that hotel? We don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Want but we're we're assuming you don't. No, you're not in my head. You don't have the fact pattern in my head. The fact pattern.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She has no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In my head is that I can't go up there. For whatever reason, I can't go up to their place and I'm having and I'm having the holiday.

Host: Michael:

Or whatever I can get the back pattern.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It wouldn't be Christmas. That in my case I'm having a holiday. It's important to me. I can't leave to come up to you. And you say to me. Hey, hey, pops. I'm going to pops and then my pops just for the sake of this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, wouldn't it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

One, I'm. Pops. Hey, pops, I'd love to come down and I'd be like, no, your wife is like, like 10 months. Pregnant. No, you are not coming down here and leaving her alone. Don't be a dick like that. Would that so that like, I totally agree with you. The in laws, the in laws here are.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That fact pattern? That's the conversation for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or being assholes by even even allowing not, and not just asking him, allowing him like if he called and said I really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There, there. I think the distinction that you're making, OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Want to come down? For Christmas, I would be like, no, you can't come down here. You stay with your wife. Are you kidding me?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right. So there's there's multiple sort of opportunities here where they jumped on the asshole bus 1 isn't asking 2, is not insisting 3 in my book would be figuring out a way to perhaps visit and cover that holiday to be with family. I understand that I'm not. I know that missing out on that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To get the OP spouse for the and the sadness that that can kind of bring and we can have a whole missing out conversation and. And that, but I understand that and they know that about him and they could help close that gap by just even offering to be in town they. Don't have that house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, super not OK. Super. Not OK, Sir.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I just I didn't want to leave these minor characters out of our analysis and unsuccessfully. We do find this in our offices where someone comes in and they feel maybe stuck between their spouse and their family, or they are the spouse who's who's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I appreciate that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A husband or wife is is feeling drawn to their original family and neglecting the traditions that that couples and families you know of our making, choose and and I am troubled at the number of times that these in law families make this demand. But Christmas is so special and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I always host Christmas. Get over yourself. Where in the world did you think that this was written? And zone forever. And the moment you have kids, this is going to be something that then flocks and creating some flexibility around these holiday traditions is important. That's why we make traditions and traditions modify and change over time. We need to hold this not with absolute rigid reverence but with some flexibility. And generosity for our family members.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean what you're talking about here is a family has a culture, and that culture has been there for. Many years when you marry, you blend together or mix together or create entirely new culture in your new family, and that it may not be consistent with the old culture culture you had with your family of origin. And sometimes that creates tension. Yeah, the, the question that comes up a lot in our offices is who wins that argument? And this comes up in. In almost in many, many relationship issues where neither one is necessarily wrong, saying you know we're we always, we're always talking to our clients about differences rather than right and wrong. There's. Difference in the way you're doing this than the way I want it. You are not wrong. I am not wrong that we work this difference out without getting hurt, angry, etcetera. I'm really troubled by this. By husband making the choice to follow his family rather than his family of origin rather than his family. And I want to differentiate like they're his family of origin and they are his family. But now his immediate family is his wife. And yet and soon to be child, and that's his family. I think they get dibs.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They absolutely get that because that is where you are most needed. Now we can change the fact pattern a little bit. Let's say you know husband, right husband, one of husband's parents is terminally ill and this is their last Christmas. In that case, maybe there are some. There's some discussions to have with them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pregnant wife says I can't travel. I know that this is really special. You go and then we're back to square 0. Because this is not that where she isn't, you know, holding me up in many ways. She's graciously saying go now again as a pregnant person, I wouldn't want to do that toward the end of my, because sometimes we don't have control over those things, and then we would want someone in place to support her for the end of the pregnancy. Now maybe that brings us to the to the second part of this, which is in a very pregnant. Person who is about to deliver a baby sounds like for the first time and as a pregnant person who has delivered for the first time, I found myself having really big feelings about who I wanted around me. And the support I needed to do something that while we have the somewhat luxury and privilege in this country of having a relatively low mortality rate of baby and mother, it's still really scary thing. That's not without risk. And I think all pregnant people, especially pregnant people who might. Have a pitch of anxiety. Start to realize that as you get closer. To that moment, and. You what you know or you think things are going to be fine. You still want someone at the call at the ready if not holding your hands.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And we're not. We're not talking about here like, like she's due on January 20th. She's due December 30th. And I'm. I'm. I'm going to do one of my favorite things right now. I'm going to send our intrepid hose down the rabbit hole. I have to wonder, what's the percentage of babies that would be if the woman is due on December 30th and her husband is due to return.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not leadership.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

On December. 28 What's the probability that that baby is going to be born while he's away? And I know that, like Michael is going. To dive in and. Try to do this. He's already he's already. You can see it. He's already.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's on it. On.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Looking at the stats here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When I was pregnant, they said something like 95% likelihood you will not deliver on your due date. Now that doesn't say what the window is but like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I'm curious though, what's the probability?

Speaker 2

Due date is.

Speaker

What the spot on?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A dartboard and what a super graded. Dart. Yeah, we're not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we we're. So we're already even before because we pulled out at at your at your behest, we pulled out the she's pregnant, even from the and factored it before we even make agree that she's pregnant. His parents are assholes. He's. I'm going to say that he's an asshole, even for, like, ditching her when she does, when she can't go.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She wants him to stay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. For whatever reason, she can't go. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For whatever reason, she wants to say she can't go. I know we can argue about whether or not like, what's a good enough reason to say don't go but, but let's let's go ahead and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now let's drop in the fact she's pregnant. Yeah, and he's a waste for any reason, whether it be family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But there is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Holiday or quite frankly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. His parents are absolute raging assholes for make for asking go. He's an asshole for agreeing to go like he's clear. Like you don't abandon your wife who's about to have your baby. No, no, no. I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. You have to. Think he's going to be back? In time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, the. For a chunk of days the threshold. We're abandoning her in this situation. Is something like if he does like he has to give a kidney to save his. Parents life like it's like that's got to be like, he's the only available kidney donor and the kidney donation has to take place on December 25th. He's gotta fly down to wherever the hell it is and give up his kidney like that and other. Otherwise some family member will. Die. Yeah, that's a threshold that I'm willing to say. Yes, you can leave. You can. Leave over Christmas. Sort of actually having to give up a kidney to save someone's life. I'm smoking by the reason you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My goal. And I want to be. Can go OK, but I want take Christmas out of your previous statement. I don't care that he misses Christmas. You know, it's it really is just around. That due date and I and I really think that especially the three weeks around that due date you you don't go anywhere three weeks before the week after you're you're in town for that month because she's going to go down now. I think there there's sometimes couples have gotten intough spaces around. Work trips if my spouse doesn't go, they could get fired now. I think. Then the spouse needs to come home and say I advocated. I told them you were pregnant. I told them that we could deliver at any moment. And they basically said I don't care. And by the way, I will tender my resignation as soon as I'm able to find another job out on that company. That manager is an apple in that scenario, but I haven't heard of people saying like he, he or she was really stuck and they had to go or otherwise they would probably lose their.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Speaker

It.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's problematic when you need health insurance and. To pay for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But what I'm. What I'm fascinated by here is that we're both grasping for situations where husband is OK, doing what he's doing and situations we come. We come up with our absolutely compulsory. Like if you don't do this, something terrible happened, yours, you loses this job and they lose your health insurance. Mine and family member dies because he's not giving a kidney.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Told them. Yeah, look at the show. Indefensible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Either way, we're setting a bar. Here. Yeah, that is. Hot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You need to like run with a pole. To get over.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And he's leaving. I mean, he's not. He's going because his parents said we really want you there for Christmas. Like, that's that. That is so, where so far away from giving up a kidney or or losing your livelihood that it's not even close. He's an asshole. Boom. Done. Is she an? Is she an asshole? Forget what the question is. Am I the asshole for getting upset with him? Is that that? What OP.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah. Asked. It was essentially like is she asking? Too much. No, no, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again, she shouldn't have to ask.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do we have that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, why is there even an ask here? There is no ask. There is no reasonable rational ask for like. Why would he? Why would he have to ask the answer you know of?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right. And so it's not us exactly right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Course I'm not going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now, now we often talk about how we communicate in couples, and if her response then was you.

Speaker

asshole kidding me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then she ices them out for three days. I have a problem, but not with the ask. The response could be problematic. We have noted in at least an episode that I listened to, but it was the car. The whole night at the car crash. Episode and how was that information communicated? Like we have to remember that we don't. We didn't hear her response and so it's he upset because she responded really poorly and didn't communicate in a kind way and in a in a firm way to express those boundaries that she that she absolutely lose her. It or you know it. It wasn't just a really simple like, I'm very disappointed, you know, this shouldn't have been an ask that I needed to make. I really just. I need you home and you know, how did that go? I think I think that would be interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fair.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It doesn't, but it doesn't. It wouldn't make her an asshole. I would say she sucks by the response. If that message fax pattern were true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If that message back pattern will grow, but in this particular case, there's no question that like, no, this is not OK, this is not OK in. In no situation is this OK? Well, OK, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Again, she's never been in that in the show.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In that really high bar situation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really weird.

Speaker 2

Take a while.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Massage fact pattern sort of away, yes, but under the vast majority of situations, there is no hard stop, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She said something in the post that I wanted to circle back to which is her husband has a real I don't know. Problem. Did she say with FOMO the fear of missing?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, they're. Out right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I recently heard something. It hit my ear. I did something on TikTok a little while ago about it, too, because it was so good, which was this idea of ship. Getting from focusing on what you're missing out on, that fear of missing this really good thing. I'm not going to get this dopamine hit from this thing that. I'm going to. Really. Enjoy. And instead of shifting that focus in that 180° way, which I love to do with clients in my office, let's focus on what you do get to have and they called it gomo. The gratitude of missing. I don't have to, you know, get in long security line and do the flight and all of that. I get to be here with you on Christmas Day and create beautiful tradition. And we'll either be, you know, experiencing. Probably you know, pregnant, pre pregnant pregnancy moments or or, you know, smuggling our little one under the lights and really building this scenario.

Host: Michael:

I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About what you get to. Have by missing out on this other thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love that, and maybe there's an opportunity to. Yeah, I just. I'm suddenly getting this image of this couple, like, making some Christmas dinner together. I'm coming up on the couch. Watch watching a movie together, enjoying the quiet solitude of the day together as a couple reading a tradition with if she's still pregnant and if she's not pregnant. Like, like, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM. I can tell. You what you do on Christmas Day when you're no longer pregnant, when you thought you'd be pregnant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, they probably be. Like. Ohh. That's right. It's Christmas like ohh it's I had. That's right. We should. We should do something. Like. Yeah. Yeah, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, you do nothing. You lay on the couch, you feed your baby, you change your baby. And I think you plopped down and watch more movies. And it's one of the most globally you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean. Had an opportunity for this couple to pull together in this time like as she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She they wind down their time together as a as a couple without a child and begin this new life or begin this new situation prior to. Either way, you're right. What? I think he's merely missing out on isn't Christmas, but he's missing out on this wonderful opportunity. So you know she's not overreacting. No, she's not an asshole. Yeah, he is. And yeah, his family. This big time, yeah. Yeah, alright, Michael, with the Internet say we agree Gayle and I, right, yeah.

Host: Michael:

So the Internet, the Internet, Internet did not let you down, so I can't even tell you how many of the comments were like fuck no or holy shit, what is going on here or what the fuck or any number of various.

Speaker

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Questions of that. To go back to your statistics really quick, 4% of babies are born. On their due. Date and the first time mothers deliver 50% of the time at 40 weeks and five days, 75% of them due at 41 weeks and two days. And so like the close, yeah anyway, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Tell me what that what does?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're saying that she could be delivering on?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mean for the?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

1st as likely as within a couple of days before that, so.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So there's a there's a reasonably.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Likelihood within the error margin of error that he's built in.

Host: Michael:

And there's there's lots of variations, right, like the size of the baby and the size of the mother and how.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure.

Host: Michael:

She's carrying and all kinds of stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, but in all but in all, but there is a much greater than 0% chance. There's like 1/3 to a. There's like 30 to 40 to 50% chance that this baby's going to show up while he's gone based on but. The what I did.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I would say 30 to percent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Back in math 50 math, not to mention the. The breasts and. Hips questions that you have along the way is as real as. It's not like do I drive. Myself, I'm really uncomfortable. I want to be evaluated.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

How much? What happens in those days before? Is your mom's during the pregnancy?

Speaker

Just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm getting this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I do. Really think he's he's missing out on something here at home?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm picturing this poor woman laying in bed like that. Is that is that my? Should I? When is the, you know? Wow. Abandoned. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's there are issues here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

By the way, she's probably not sleeping well because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So, Michael, what else did the Internet say that we missed?

Speaker

So.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I was going to say there are a couple of things that were kind of interesting is they, I mean, everybody said you're not the. asshole. The only. A couple of people said everyone's sexier except for you, which is also kind of funny because they addressed the. Parents like you said as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. OK.

Host: Michael:

Several people talked about, like, even even if it worked out OK, the idea of you going and gathering with a bunch of people and traveling and then coming home to a pregnant wife with a new baby is probably not a great way in terms. Of health and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We need to think about that.

Host: Michael:

Health and illness and all those things. That happen at those times, COVID and otherwise. Yeah, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just enough to incubate that fuck and bring it home to a newborn who has little in the. Way of immunity that is such an.

Host: Michael:

And let me really quick give you the updates from the from the mother, so. She gave she. Gave an update. This was around like November or something so she says. My mom and her retired nurse sister arrived yesterday, which has been a huge relief. I also had a virtual OB GYN appointment with my fiancee, where the doctor strongly advised him against traveling. He's now returning on the 22nd, so that was the compromise as he came back sooner than he originally had. Though his mother though the asshole as you guys pointed out. Suggested he continued to stay until Christmas, which he declined. My mom and Aunt will speak with his parents today to express our concerns, her best friend assured that she'll be there even if she goes into labor on Christmas, staying in close contact. She's got a lot of support from friends and family. She suggested they go into therapy before the wedding date, which she agreed to. I'm also seeking counseling independently. Thank you for all your support, blah, blah, blah second.

Speaker

So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not married at the time that she was going to deliver this baby. So we have a lot of couples work to do here. Yeah, I didn't really fully appreciate that. And so this guy really has some some learning. To do about. What this means and how to show up for this family that he is he is creating.

Host: Michael:

So second update, he's coming back on the 22nd. Yeah, but her update is our baby girl was born December 20th. Healthy and surrounded by love for my mom, aunt and.

Speaker 2

Oh.

Host: Michael:

Best friend, my now ex fiance, didn't make it for her birth. After a tense call with his mother, my mom and aunt moved me back home, where I'm now living. He returned on the 22nd to find us all gone and after spending Christmas discussing our future, I decided to break up the engagement his mother had pressured him to go on the trip training, claiming it would repair family bonds, but the situation made it. Where I can't marry into a toxic family. He apologized. We are still going into couples therapy and we're trying to work out how he's going to be part of.

Speaker

Well.

Host: Michael:

Baby's life, so yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, they're going to have an 18. Year relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Regardless of what happens now, they have some eight years that they have a good 18 year relationship. I'm not frankly surprised by this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Whatever kind of relationship that is, yeah. Update no, no. Actually there's a little bit of relief and it is a good reminder that you know. We can partner. With someone and love them deeply. And if they are. Surrounded by family dynamics that are unhealthy, we need to remember that we are taking that on as well and how that our partner handles those problematic. Dynamics is going to say a lot about how those family dynamics are going to influence our relationships. And I'm not saying if someone has problematic family relationships, you don't date them. You just make sure they get their. fuck together first.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I mean this kind of this question comes up being a fair bit sometimes you know, asking someone like what leads you to stay in this relationship in this situation. And I'll hear, you know, well, I love them and I'm of the opinion that love is I'm sure you are too. It's necessary, but it's not sufficient. Yeah. Like love doesn't sustain a relationship on its own. You need love plus. And this person, they may love each other very much, but he doesn't respect her or prioritize her. And so while she. They love him. Kudos for her, for recognizing the likely harm down the road. Yeah. So I don't think. I don't think. I don't think love is a necessary but not sufficient element of her. Great. Take us out, Michael. Got like, 2 minutes left.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Agreed. You're muted, you're muted.

Host: Michael:

There were two more interesting conversations that if we had more time, we could tackle, which are like, what's the threshold like you guys talked about, if it wasn't, if they weren't pregnant, if they weren't, fiance, if they weren't a girl, like if they were just boyfriend, girlfriend, where is that line in terms of traveling as well? So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We did that. We talked about that. Doesn't matter.

Host: Michael:

Anyway, thank you both for another riving debate and to the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often. Shades of Grey and not just black and. White. Ohh, I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Even know what to say about this? This seems so egregious that it doesn't it it does feel black and white to me. That's the truth of this is it was really pretty apparent pretty quickly. So thinking for me, I thought it was a great question to have.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And when and I, I always want to talk about missed opportunities. What? But what a missed opportunity for this couple to recognize ahead of time that there this can't be the first time a problem came up with his family or a family and they missed their opportunity to have the couples counseling before this fuck went down. So.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, please follow and share Veritas views and the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation will be. See you on the flip side.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So Gayle, we're approaching the things as this is being recorded, we're approaching Thanksgiving.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it will air, I think, shortly before Thanksgiving.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Perfect. No Wednesday. Tell me about a family Thanksgiving tradition in the MacBride household.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh, that's a great question we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As if we hadn't planned it.

Speaker 2

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Michael and I have been challenging and. And I think. Our our Thanksgiving tradition was really something that was created because of our Christmas tradition and commitment. So it sort of works with the episode a little bit. Early in our marriage, we couldn't attend family Christmas and that really didn't set well, right? We had to talk about this as a couple and make a decision about how we would approach this. And we did and we committed to being back home for for Christmas, which is always a. Little bit of. A travel for us, and if that's the commitment, then we said. Health and giving the really expensive time to fly and travel in general and the wet weather can be Daisy. We committed to then staying. Kind of put to where we live. And that commitment to staying put then led to. Well, what do we? Want to do with this day? Because now it's just the family of our making. It's us and our two children. And then I know this is kind of a long and windy story, but I find out it kind of no one in my family really likes Turkey and the only reason my husband wants me to make a Turkey or wants to make a Turkey. Himself is so that we have Turkey soup. That's the one thing he likes. He doesn't actually like the Turkey. My kids don't actually like Turkey and so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's cause it sucks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, it does, right? And I mean, it's OK well and fresh it's OK but yeah. But thank you for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know what? There are everyone's trying to see every year. Now I'm going to interrupt here. Every year, people try to come up with the best way to cook Turkey. And here's why.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now please, Darrell. It's not. It's not me. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Didn't suck. You wouldn't. Kind of come up with 20 different ways of cooking it. It's not delicious. It's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, it it's bland it dries out anyway. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker

So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, line. Right. Why? Why are we going to attach ourselves to the meat of the day? You know, Turkey day? Why not change it? Up a little. Bit so we started as our kids. Got a little. Older creating a family ballot and this ballot then consisted of everyone. Identifying their preferred protein and side and salad and whatever roll type carb. Dessert. And so on. And then the four of us would each receive this ballot and vote rank order what we want and top vote wins. Now you can form coalitions, right? Kids can parents, whatever by, you know, rank ordering choices. And my husband loves a good spreadsheet. So this all goes into the spreadsheet. And lo and behold, this is how you end up with rib eye and smashed. Potatoes for for Thanksgiving and every once in a while, I well, not every once in awhile. I always insist on. Making good cranberry sauce. But it's one tradition because we've all had input.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

During COVID, when we were really hunkered down, we really the day and everyone was responsible for a dish and we they brought a dish to the party, as it were, and we did dish to pass. And so you end up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With tomato and cucumber salad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Delightful. Wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But that became a day where we are about creating this for ourselves and not. Based on what larger culture demands that we engage?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And add. Had OSP and fiancee done that, developed their own traditions, they might be together right now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Precisely. I mean, that's that's our democracy in action.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There we go. Hey, there's our bonus conversation. So we're about to wrap season one, season 2. We've got some exciting things that were that are in the works we're looking to bring in some guests. And during our downtime, as we begin thinking about Season 2, we'd love to hear from you, our listeners as to what you'd like to see more of what the most, what's the great parts of this stuff? Are there any tweaks you'd like us to make so? So we're going to use this downtime ourselves to recharge, but we're also asking and to and to come up with all sorts of new. Exciting things that we've already started in the works with and I say we, I mean Doctor MacBride and we're also kind of curious as to what you're listening to you, our listeners, are thinking about it. Yeah. What do you have some thoughts on this?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Issue I'm really excited about this break. One of the things that we want to talk to our clients about is taking breaks and taking time away from the office. And so this break is a little bit also. Just an acknowledgement of the time that you and I are both. Going to be. Out of the office, just kind of taking time to do other things in our lives and really create some balance. So I'm very excited about it. I'm all about boundaries. This is this is. One of those and. I hope our show reflects that. And then like you said, coming in 2025, we've got some guests and some different things that we want to cook. Up and provide a little variety while keeping the intention of our. Our will show intact, but we would love to. Feedback if you were hear an episode because we are going to drop some old episodes so that they can get some more love. Do you hear something, you know? Go ahead. Write us. We love that feedback. That helps a lot. It creates some energy for us. And we're not done yet. So don't stop listening to the new episodes. We got a couple more for you. Just letting you know what's coming.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I was always like following here. I don't know if that that all the podcasters do that. So I think we're. Supposed right there, you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Go. Yeah. And Kelley helps us with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That too, Oh yeah, she does.

Host: Michael:

And I'll just add really quick. One of the things we're going to do a lot of times they'll do. Best of us? At the end of the year, we're going to do least loved instead so I can see which podcasts have gotten the fewest listens or downloads, and we're going to refigure those and give them another chance. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Excellent.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined as always by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Doctor Gayle MacBride and Dan once again, welcome to you. I am looking forward to having a thoughtful new long conversation about who's an asshole, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Which is always a great way to. Spend Sunday morning. Which is when we record this podcast.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's true. Yeah, all. Right, right, Michael tell. Tell the newbies what's going on here, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, well, for those newbies out there, if there are any, I mean, I assume this is a first podcast for somebody at some point. What we deal with is somebody on the Internet has posted a scenario and say, hey, this thing happened and I was part of this experiment or this. Scenario. Who's the asshole here? Because they want that objective perspective of the Internet and we'll see if we can come to some kind of determination. About what Dan or Gayle think about them and whether that matches with what the Internet expectations are or judgment, I don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do you think they're looking for objective feedback or do they look, do you think that as often as not people are looking for confirmation for their behavior or choices obviously would be for objectivity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I have certainly seen. Yeah, I've seen both. I've seen people who are, like, genuinely in my castle here. And others who are just looking to have the Internet tell them you're a good guy, right? And our job is to pick through that. Because, I mean, as psychologists, sometimes people do come in, you know, most of the time people come in with, gosh, what's going on here. But sometimes people are less, are not in as good a place to. Especially we see couples. I think you know, couples will often come in and they're like, I have my axe to grind and I need to explain to you how my partner is wrong and let's open our first task is couples therapists to get people off of that perspective. Of of you know, I just need validation that my partner is a terrible person and I'm doing everything right and that's a big part of our job is to get them to that place where they're like, what am? I doing wrong you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And I agree, I mean, I think sometimes people do posts because they want objective feedback and a lot of times. So when we're looking to the Internet, we are just looking for some confirmation with an axe to grind. And I'm curious if today's episode, which will it.

Host: Michael:

Be well, wait, I'm curious if you think in the scenario where.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What will it be, Michael? What do? You got for it.

Host: Michael:

Somebody wants confirmation if then they pull up Reddit on their phone and they're like, see, I told you, I told you that I was right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I. Well, I suspect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Second layer of asshole now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, the person who is posting in order to prove that they're not a dick to their partner is probably the same person is going to then take this to their partner and say. See, I told you I'm. Not today. So it wouldn't surprise me. How about that? I don't know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me. But let's assume let's assume.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Positive in 10. OK, I think positive intent and say that probably this person really does whoever this next to our. Our next OP is probably does want to know if they're.

Speaker

Like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Being an asshole. So our job here.

Speaker

And.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is to be as as fair as we can and to give people a little bit of a sense of what it would be like. To talk with the psychologists and the kinds of things that we would be worried about. This is of course not treatment. But this might just. Be an introduction to some concepts that folks might be interested or or help you know. Kind of hearing or thinking through stuff right Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Alright so.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, this is the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael go.

Host: Michael:

One I got worried today, which is. Emma and Essel for assuming my husband should unplug the toilet, which he clogged with his own poop before we leave for the beach.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, the last thing I want to find when I get home. Like you don't want that that debt for, well, literally shit festering for however long you going to be at the beach for. Man, that's nasty. Like yes, go and he should go and plug the toilet.

Speaker

Huh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No intention unintentionally hilarious because on the break we might have been talking about a toilet that was clogged in. Our household so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean like. Like I will. I will forgive the child who is not yet of toilet unclogging age. You know, we we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Find that in households that there is no Emily praise, this is a non leading question. Dan, do you think in households with more than one adult? Do you think there is one person who has more of the responsibility specialty, if you will, to be the toilet unclogger regardless of who clogged the toilet?

Host: Michael:

Well, forget.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do you think theft of role? Yeah, there's often there's the cook. There's the one who takes out the trash. There's the, you know, the one. Who do you think that in in relationships do you think there's the one? Who unclogs the toilet?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think in relationships there is almost always and usually unintentional. There's like this unintentional like like couples can. Inspire couples can couples conspire to assign tasks to each other, and like everybody knows the tasks are. And sometimes they talk about explicitly. Oh, you can dinner night tonight. I'll cook dinner tomorrow night, you know, but other times like like no one ever talked about who's checking the oil. But there's always one partner who checks who's like in charge of checking. And maybe it's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And fired.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In your relationship and nothing always but like in many relationships.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My car these days.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, well, yeah, we need sound.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I hear you, I hear you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Cars. But yeah. No, if you're if you're. If you're there, there's there's often like one person whose job it is to more or less do this thing and everybody kind of knows who it is. And sometimes you planned it. That way, and sometimes it just sort of happens that one person does it. So I'm going to say to this question like, yeah, for the most part, I think that that couples do have someone who is the toilet unclogger because that's just been the person who, like, started unclogging the toilet a long time ago. And then they started, ended up being the toilet unclogger unintentionally. So I'm going to go with that probably.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Happens quite a bit, yeah. Until then. The question for this couple is whether or not. Is the OP Michael? Is this a female partner? Female male partner.

Host: Michael:

Male partner. It is. Yeah. The female is is posting and the husband is the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Speaker

She.

Host: Michael:

One who clogged the toilet?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She's irritated that he caused the toilet. They have a plan to leave the house and he doesn't get the toilet unclogged, so I begin to just sort of wonder or massage packs in my head. Which one of them is the toilet unclogger.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but I also want to. I want, I think, and we do discuss this sometimes. Doctor MacBride. Yeah, we probably should hear the fact pattern.

Host: Michael:

I could read the rest of it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh you could no. Would you read the resting sports, Michael? We'd be interested in hearing what the rest says.

Host: Michael:

OK, so this one starts out and it says we've been having some marital issues, so I'm not sure if I'm overreacting here. This morning I asked my husband if you wanted to go to the beach. He agreed and I waited for. I waited for the laundry to finish before he left. When I was ready, I asked if he was too. He told me the toilet was clogged and he needed a. Anger. I suggested that if he couldn't find one, he could try to break up the clog and dispose of what he used. I know gross, but in a pinch, if you don't have a plunger, it's something we've done in the past.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh, buy a plunger. Seriously. Like if you could and I'm not saying that. Yes, I know there's affordability issues. The plungers are relatively expensive and I'm going to assume that this couple has. The financial where with all the good. Today and maybe the beach is free, but they have the financial wherewithal to buy a plunger if you. Have a house, you need a plunger.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And this is just the basic tool in the House, I mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. Go, go, go buy it. Go, go, go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You look give. It as a house for I mean guests. And go high end. You can get one from the dollar store.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, they're not. They're not expensive. Go buy a plunger. So. Yeah. No, no, there's no excuse for not having a plunger. Once you've plugged the toilet even once, there's no excuse for not having.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A plunger, alright, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Conversation. She's had this conversation and then gone in to work on laundry and assumed that he'd reach out to meet. And since we didn't have a plunger and our building has a maintenance guy, so I guess this is an apartment complex.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, fair enough. Fair enough.

Host: Michael:

After about 15 minutes, I asked if he found a plunger and he said he was waiting for the toilet. Drain. I reminded him he'd likely need a plunger, but he tried flushing again with no success. Another 15 minutes later, I find him on. The couch? What's that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's called.

Host: Michael:

So 15 minutes more pass. I find them on the couch. When I asked if he'd contact maintenance, he seemed surprised and asked why he'd do that when we're headed to the beach. I explained that I needed to use the bathroom and the mirror before he left, so I didn't think leaving the toilet clogged was an option. This upset him and he stormed out to buy a plunger. Now I'm wondering, was I wrong to expect the toilet to be unclogged before leaving?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow. OK. So I think there's missed opportunity here. We have we have forgotten to coordinate and really talk through our various plans here. Storming out is never OK. That really and it's interesting that the OP OP starts with explaining that they're having some marital difficulties. And so we may be missing opportunities and adding fuel to sort of the dissatisfaction pattern. This is probably an instance where they're both right and then because they're not talking and not communicating, it just gets exponentially harder. Now, what do you think, Doctor Kessler?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree. Here's a couple who like? Yeah, there's there's they're having issues. And as part of those issues, they're probably not having good conversation as part of not having good conversation. They didn't talk, they didn't talk this through and we talked so often about the critical nature of talking things through. When you and your partner are having disputes or disagreements. And this almost certainly falls under the category of missed opportunity just to say, hey, it's important to me to have that toilet unclogged as soon as possible. Can you call the maintenance guy or maybe one of us should run on and get a plunger? And Oh yeah, I can totally see that. Honey. Yes, I will go. I'll call the maintenance guy. We're going to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Plunger like well and I can see his point is like well, but the maintenance guy is going to not even be able to get here for two hours. Are we really going to sit here and wait from him? We want to going to be at the beach and. And so maybe? It doesn't make sense to call me then, right? But it's still a conversation. That's why she's not necessarily wrong, but they both miss.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's still conversation. It's it's still conversation. It's still him saying to her it's still him saying her. Yeah, I mean, you don't want to go to the beach until the laundry is done. That's great. Let me use that timer up, you know? Yeah. Let's, let's call the can we call the maintenance? Can we call the maintenance guy when we get back regardless?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right is the do with the poo in the toilet all day.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I wouldn't. I. Yeah. No, that's that's a well, the other. The other problem with that and I can I can speak to this from. From home experience a clogged toilet if it starts to run on is going to flood the home. That's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But she didn't necessarily say that it's running it's cloth, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Could you? Don't you do not want to leave a toilet clock? Like turn off? Turn on. I'm not a maintenance guy. I'm a cover. Like you gotta turn the water off. You gotta turn the water off. If it's not just in case. Like if.

Speaker

Well, wonder.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. No, I mean what do? Want flowing?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It you know, because you don't want either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Why would it flow? Yeah, it's not going to. It's not going to. It's not going to refill once it's stopped once the. Liver. It's stopped.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You never know. I'm just water. Water scares.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Me water scares you. I understand.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You, you, you, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I get it. I do. I think that again, I mean it doesn't matter and you know if if we're in this scenario and you said to me, hey, the toilet's clogged and it's going to be two hours for maintenance, I'm willing to go, but I'm. I'm not willing to take a chance of this running.

Speaker

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Down into the apartment below. So I'm going to turn the water off, OK, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. But it's a it's a I mean, it's getting it's a cut all of this. It's a conversation. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like this conversation?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And each made assumptions about what the other was going to do and what the other wanted, and neither one of them I could see whether having marital problems because, you know, marital problems often come from not hearing each other and not being able to share with your partner your needs, wants, thoughts, feelings, etc. And here's a perfect example of. Couple who failed to be able to have the conversation that was really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Important and the pattern is so spot on, Dan. How if you had a nickel for every time a couple walked into your office and said, Oh my God. We fight about this stupidest things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Oh my gosh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About this toilet cloth like always this stupid thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thought about the toilet cloth?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That we just fall apart over.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Couldn't. Yeah, I mean, and yeah, of course. They thought about the toilet clog because they didn't have a conversation about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And they didn't have shared plan. They had separate expectations for how this was going. No, and neither was probably right or wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So no. So I mean to to begin answering her question, she's not an asshole for expecting her her husband, to unclog the toilet, but she missed an opportunity to have a conversation with him. And again, probably be given her, maybe they're having problems, probably part of a pattern of missed opportunities and problems that they should be addressing. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And she really did miss the opportunity to assume positive intent where he was trying to be ready. OK, you're working along.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know this is. Going quite well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, he was laying on the couch. He was laying on the couch.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure, but laying on the couch can be I'm waiting for you. I'm ready. I'm not going to take on the toilet task because that's going to take too long. That's going to back up your beach. Your beach plan. Assume positive intent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Yeah, no. Alright, fine. But it's it's positive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Lens of him laying on the couch and being an old. And she's already fucker at him I am. Going to take that one. With a little bit of a grain of salt.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I'm. I'm not. I'm not.

Speaker

Wow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I he he he, he had. And maybe it's because I see the clogged toilet as a greater urgency than then he is seeing it as if you have time to sit on the couch you have time to try troubleshooting this problem he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But. Said he has gone. This is maintenance this problem and so now I am dependent on maintenance as time. Frame I disagree with his.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Coach to the club just wrong. Is wrong. Did the toads clogged be tight?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's being mildly dickish more than mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

At least, if not more so, because like I mean, there are things you call. I agree that there are things the problem of maintenance to to handle when you live in an apartment building, but I think of those as like broken stuff like clogged, like, if a toilet needs to be snaked out because there's a serious problem with it, that's a maintenance job. But if the toilet needs to be clogged.

Speaker 3

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because you you poop big and there's too much poop in the toilet and you maybe use paint. Too much paper? And like like. That's not a maintenance problem. That's a like get a plunger and unclog the toilet. So I I did. No, I just I just this is not I don't think I'm going to call maintenance because like you know I had a big meal last night we went out to eat we went out to eat and I had this big bowl of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, it's just for the record. Haven't you embarrassed to call maintenance? For this last one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, and now now that I clogged the toilet and you unplug it for. Upon the maintenance game. Like dude by a plumber by. A plunger, right? No. So I don't, I I want this this. No go get off the couch and go to the dollar store or the OR the Home Depot or the Lowe's or whatever your local hardware store is. I'm not plugging any hardware store. Go get a plunger and. You know you're grown up. You're grown as man.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, she's cool. You just go get a stick. Break that shit up and she.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh no, that just seems that just I don't. I know I'm not a that one. That one. Seems like there's a better choice there than than than than besides. And she said it's happened before and they've used the stick method before.

Speaker

Didn't know the fun.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're you're an adult, annoying to both of them because no one's buying a plunger at this house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm annoyed both of them. You're adults. You're grown adults. Go buy a plunger. OK. It's not like I'm asking you to go out and like, you know, buy a a, a, a new water softener. That's $2000 or something like that. Go buy. It's a plunger. It's like 2 bucks. Go. Go to the thing and buy the plunger and clean the thing out and you know. If it's just no, I'm just. I'm not sympathetic here. I'm not sympathetic to either one of them on the issue of the poop clog, they should own a plinker.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. Agreed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just need to repeat issue.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Agreed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I'm more upset with him for sitting on the couch and not fixing than I am at her for being mad at him.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I'm still less upset at him for that. No, that's OK. You know, we get to. Differ, we actually. Don't have to come. Out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We don't have. To we can we can we can we can land in slightly different places. I don't. Either way, she asked. Am I the asshole for this? I am. I'm firmly in the category of. No, she's not the asshole we're expecting to take care of this before they leave, however.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the same place. Think that they had 100. So look, let me massage.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Go ahead, dude. No, please, please.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just for a moment, just for shifts and giggles.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh God.

Speaker

Are you guys?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Let's reverse this. Yeah, she causes the poop clog and he's the unclogger. She says to him. Honey, I clogged the toilet again or the I went to the bathroom and the toilets clogged again. I'd like to go to the beach. I'm going to work on laundry. Can you get that unclogged? And he doesn't. He then defers it to maintenance. Is he the asshole or is she the asshole?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because it's her clock. Just just massage, fax land.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're even with your massage facts. If there's. If this is their agreed upon task list, yeah, I would say there's nothing inherently masculine about unclogging a toilet or inherently feminine about it. Whatever, you know. But if if that has become their agreed upon task list and this is his task, it is something of an emergent. Ask and he fails to do it. I'm still. I'm still not mad. I'm. I'm still upset with him for not doing it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, no. You don't think she? Should have gone out and loved plunger.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

At least I mean, if, if she's willing to clog the toilet and they don't have a plunger. In the house. Well, if they don't plunge in the house, there's no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She wants it done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Designated plunger in the House? Well, maybe there is. Maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or he's just going to. Defer it to maintenance. There is nobody at the house. This task is totally unacceptable. We have some more maintenance person.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Clearly, I mean, I think I think they're equally responsible for buying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A plunger, all right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Green.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And again, they're grownups. They're equally responsible for like plunger, but I'm still. I'm still like, like, they needed to have a conversation. They did. I'm still more annoyed with him than I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Am with her and the flashing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The flat packs a little bit because this is. Something that she wanted and there was no plunger in the house and. I really think you know there was an opportunity that was meant to have a conversation of, hey, gosh, we still don't have a plunger. I'm going to run out. Or can you run out right to get this thing done? Who's going to do the laundry? Who's going to get the plunger? We can't leave. This is more urgent. I and. Yeah, certainly don't disagree with you. I just think what do I think? I think that. I think I don't know. Michael's going to edit that out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. Where are we? Where are we picking up anything? Then again, after Michael's done editing?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I don't even know. I don't know. I just what?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Host: Michael:

If I jump in with the Internet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The Internet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So, all right, so wait. Wait, wait. Let me. Let me cap this up. OK, so. So what I'm hearing now is that is that neither one of us is willing to call someone an asshole. Yeah, I'm. I'm putting more of the blame on him than her. Not necessarily an asshole, but he really should be doing this. And. And you're well more willing to say that there's a little bit of a little bit of shift to go around, as it were, between.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I where I will on the original question. Yeah, where I find the biggest fault where I will move toward calling him an asshole. If not, just dickish. Somewhere between that is he stormed out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, I forgot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, I don't like that behavior. That's not cool. Cross the line there, but to the OP's question I have. I do have a problem with both adults and no one having a plunger and taking some responsibility and having a better. A better conversation about what the plan was and the and the various moving parts, the laundry, the beach and the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You and I have both worked with enough enough couples to know that his description of this might have been, you know, I was going to wait till later. And then she said it really can be done now. So I'm like, all right, I'll go get a plunger. And I left, like, and then she got all mad at me for storming out. I just went out to go get.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A plunger? What's the big deal? Like? I wasn't storming out like I get totally. We we're accepting her. Her perspective here, that he's stormed out, his perspective may very well be that there was no storming.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here at all. But you accepted your perspective, but he's just lounging on the couch versus being alone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I will choose what to accept. As the arbiter here, as one of the arbiters here. Now I think that I think that it's and one of the problems we have and we've talked about this before, like if you're angry and try close the door behind you, it's probably going to slam and he may have very well thought. OK, fine. We'll get a plunger. It's no big deal. Like, if you really it's this important to you I will go get it. And she saw this system storming out, and he just thought this was this thing. But remember, this is in the context of a of a couple in conflict who need to have conversations around how to resolve things. They clearly resolve this poorly from the start with it, with, with poor communication all the way through it. That's why I'm less willing to call you the one of them an asshole. Like, I would rather he, he, you know, got up off the couch and did something about it. But this is a. There were so many missed opportunities for both of them to have conversation, and This is why we see couples in counseling so often as they're not having the conversations to help them resolve things. So, Michael, what did the Internet say or do? Yeah, just, you know. Sit right before I kick it throw up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To Michael. No, no. Kick it to Michael, please. Yeah, well, the Internet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks Michael.

Speaker

Thank you for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With me, Dan.

Host: Michael:

The Internet had, I mean, they were almost universally saying she's not the asshole for expecting that. And almost universally everybody said something like for the love of God, you are married adults get a asshole plunger. What is wrong with you? So that that was, that was like a direct quote. Multiple times the time there, there was also one that was not the asshole. I'm a dude, a fat guy at that, and generally thought of as being kind of lazy and even I would be appalled at a toilet sitting with poop in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Great. That's great.

Host: Michael:

It all day.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, that just like I like wow. That was a great beach ship. I'm going to go get a shower now. I feel so good. You gotta get the sand off me and the salt up you walk into the bathroom and the bathroom like. Like like and? And what world was it? OK to leave this toilet clogged all day long? No, no. And clearly they only have one bathroom because she said, like, I need to use the bathroom. Them and wash and do my face and things like that. So clearly they have one bathroom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and this is where I will take exception like they have one bathroom and if anybody needs it, your shit is literally clogged this up and all we're going to do is make it worse.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, you gotta fix that shit. You gotta care bit. No, I'm not. So the Internet agreed. Agreed on that issue.

Host: Michael:

Well, there, there were. There were a couple of things that were also interesting from the Internet. One was, one person said, I really have nothing to say other than in your in her title she had censored O out of poop, so it was P asterisk. Asterisk and they were like you censor the word poop and I am a asshole. Sub. What the shit?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's not like she wrote SH exclamation point T so that they wouldn't say the word. shit in the post, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Right. So that was pretty funny. Someone else said side note Blue dawn and boiling water often will work in a pinch if you don't have a plunger, so there's like advice about ways to get around, have a plunger.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not going to try. Maybe I should. Maybe not.

Host: Michael:

And then there was this whole side thread that you guys touched on, which was essential. Really like it is not the maintenance guys job to do this by a plunger. Take care of your shit yourself. Like you know, reserve something that is actually in the realm of maintenance for the maintenance person.

Speaker

For sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've never been.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

By the way in. My area, I looked it up plungers less than $16.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's that expensive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like well for like. A really good one. They need a really good one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For $16.00, I want the plunger to plunge itself.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I'm going to tell you that if you're going right, I have bought hundreds at the dollar store. Don't ask. Well, you can ask me why? Maybe it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That seems like an awfully expensive lunch.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About this conversation. I don't know. And you can get the really cheap ones, the one with the short handle and the really. We bevel, bevel, bevel for for a buck, so somewhere between a dollar and $15 and get a plunger to do the job done. This soap and boiling water is an interesting idea too. Don does everything currently they're not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This it it is I'm and I'm looking this up as we speak and yes, the store brand plunger at my local big box hardware store that I won't name is is $8.40. Seven cents. And that's for and that's for a good quality plunger there. So you know and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright.

Host: Michael:

A plunger is cheaper than marital counseling as well I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Suppose so. Score for Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is, you know. That's true, because that's going to be cheaper than the copay for one session. Probably. And if you've got a big deductible, that could be problematic. Absolutely. So, you know there there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Five wonder.

Host: Michael:

Don't go by plane. Alright, well, thank you both for another ripping debate and to the collective conscious and that forms. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray and. Not just brown, late. Sorry. Couldn't resist. I'm sorry I couldn't. I couldn't resist. Yeah, I couldn't resist.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Did you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh, I was going to say ohh man. All right on that. Well, thank you for bringing us another. Am I the asshole, this conversation.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. Please follow and share Veritas Views name of the podcast platforms. And like Jill said, we'll see you on the other side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

As promised here is that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh Dan, I'm curious if there is an experience we've been talking about Graduate School and Graduate School experiences. I'm wondering if there is something from your graduate training that really stands out as sort of an interesting. Informative experience or thing you learned, not necessarily advice per se, but something you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, this is something I actually I actually learned about myself in a breakthrough defensiveness. I was struggling with some personal stuff earlier on in Graduate School, a father passed away in my first year grad school and was really I was making a lot of mistakes and they said you should go get some counseling. And they were right. So go see this. Counselor and I sit down with her. Shout out to. Doctor Susan Jeffrey and I'm sitting down with her and I'm talking about like this. The faculty is this, and the faculty is that. And the faculty is this and they're dead and I'm ranting. And. Raving about how how terrible I mean, and she said to me, all of what you're saying is true. It doesn't change the fact that you're making a lot of mistakes here and you're really screwing things up for yourself. And she didn't say that in those words, but that's what my brain remembers from 30 years ago. But it was something along the lines of whether they are or not. All of those things. Let's talk about you and what you're doing wrong. And I. I think I've carried that with me through my work as a therapist. That thing like, yes, all the stuff you're saying is true. Like, yeah, all these other people. Fine, whatever. But they're not here. Let's work on you. Let's work on your ship. And I think it, you know, I think it did it. I felt really good, you know. School loved me after I did my work day there and graduated all those, but it was really, I think that was super valuable for me as a therapist to spend that time on the couch, as it were, learning how to do that introspection that I'm asking my clients to do in therapy be like, yeah. And I find myself saying that we probably do too. Like, yeah, OK you what you're saying is right. Yeah. Your husband or wife or. Partner or friend or family or parent? Yeah, they sound like they're a real jerk and they're not here. Let's work on your ship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I love that. And it's it's a reminder that we all have stuff we can be working on and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a valuable moment thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And even in, sometimes the worst of circumstances, there's still something we can be doing differently for ourselves. Why? Because we're going to be engaged in other relationships in our lives. Professional, academic, romantic, and we maybe need to change that pattern in in ourselves in order to improve those relationships.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. Thanks. No. Yeah. There you go. Little personal insight.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thanks for tuning in everyone. And tune in again next week for a whole other, am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In the episode, Dan and Gayle refer back to a previous episode of the podcast. Here's a link to that episode.


Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Yale MacBride, and with us today is Doctor Daniel Kessler. Welcome to the podcast once again, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Welcome, welcome. This is a. This is a our opportunity each week to discuss what the wonders of the Internet bring us and bring it together with our, with our psychology practices, and I'm looking forward to hearing what Michaels brought us this week. Michael, you always have such interesting stuff for us.

Host: Michael:

Thanks. Yeah, I do my best welcome both of you. And for any of the newbies out there. Dan's description didn't do it for you. And you don't know what Hamid aswell is. In short, somebody on the Internet has posted a scenario and said this is how it went down. Who's the asshole here? And that's what Doctor MacBride and Kessler will hopefully help us. German.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, hey, before we go any further, can Interject listening to my favorite podcast, very tough to use AI TA Edition yesterday.

Speaker

Of course. And I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Listened back an episode that we had discussed and I couldn't tell you. Episode number sorry guys, but link in the show. Notes about the. Parent who made. Pancakes for their child, said parent Ben had morning sickness. Do you remember this one, Dan? And didn't make pancakes for the knee. Just wait.

Speaker

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, we missed. Something I think. Yeah. And I don't want to spend maybe a lot of time on it or maybe it's a long conversation, I don't know. We missed in our discussion the fact that the second parent, so the pregnant parent was up, made made pancakes for the kiddo. The second parent of that said child was awake and we left the dad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We get.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Off the hook. Completely. I listened back and I was like, how do we not jump on dad for like not getting in there and helping out? We got Prego life I was making. Who's making pancakes and a niece who's crying. We missed that. We were apples then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We missed. Yeah. Ohh yeah, sure. We totally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We were all oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What's that, Michael? Will you put a link in the show notes? I'm going to read. Listen to that episode as well from that link.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cuz that is we miss him. Like us. Yeah, we sort of glossed over this yadda yadda detail that husband was awake but doesn't eat pancakes, so he didn't participate. What? That you don't eat pancakes? Don't care. Make pancakes for the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Children. Kind of make it not. It's not a complicated tab.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's not complicated, not complicated, and he didn't pitch up. I am disappointed in him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm very disappointed I'm in red, so we're going to like retroactively, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Call him an.

Host: Michael:

asshole. I like it. I'll be sure to link there in the notes and. And you're right. Now that I'm playing it back in my mind, I do remember that aspect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Host: Michael:

But in the moment it was easy to pounce on the focus topic of that. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So we're going to retroactively apply the asshole title, but I want to listen to it first. Well, let's go ahead and put it on there. We'll we'll make a sound.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Take my word for it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks. I'm going to take your word for it. Alright, husband. And ask great, alright alright like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. With this episode, I just wanted to like quick call back because I was remembering that I had listened to it.

Host: Michael:

I had some quiet time yesterday. Sure. Well, we got a fresh 1 today, so this is this is what we got. Am I the asshole for texting at 7:13? AM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe that is hyperspecific as if you would not be the asshole at 7:14.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, it's hyper specific and yet overly vague because something absolutely mission critical. No. But like like like like, hey, have a good day maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Or if you know your recipient is awake? I've been known to tax certain business partners fairly early in the morning because I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're up. Up, I'm up. And. But how? How? I have a thought. Doctor MacBride. Yes. So you should hear the fact better. All right, Michael. What?

Host: Michael:

I loved about this one is the sometimes the headlines give away more or they're clickbaity like this one. It felt so open-ended. It's like, what are the circumstances? So I had to read it, which is this is the rest of it. I have a neighbor with a daughter, a similar age to mine. But we have never really hung out with them on a rainy morning, I thought I would reach out to the dad to see if they might want to have a. Late my text essentially said the weather looks so bad, we're thinking about heading the trampoline park in the late morning in case you're interested in joining. His exact reply is this text at 7:13 AM on a weekend morning with zero previous contacts has gotten you blocked. Invasions of boundaries 100% and he really blocked me. This man has never been super friendly, but seems otherwise. Like a relatively normal human being. Am I the asshole here? Is there a certain designated time before we should or should not be texting each other? You're not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. A. You, you. I have a thought. You you it looked.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like you. No go. Please go. I have lots of thoughts all the time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, so. So First off, let's not answer her. I'm going to answer, not answer her question. I'm going to start off by saying, dude, there are ways of addressing one's neighbor who is annoyed, going off on them and blocking them because they send you a text message at 713, like whether she is. Out of line or not, he has overreacted and there's a three-step concept we've talked about before that we'll get to. Later I think.

Host: Michael:

Quick interjection. They're both males, so 2 male instead of she, but not. Not that it really matters. I think in the scenario.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just so you know, you know what I mean? Like it like this, this, this gender assumption based on like it's. It's usually my. My food arranges play dates feel really bad about that heterosexist language. My apologies. Yeah. Would you save me by jumping and talking for a little bit since I just screwed up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

From the get go for assuming heteronormative. Gender role stereotypes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Did you as well?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I was saying that's going to be our next episode. Am I the?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

asshole for. Yeah. No, I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's my birthday today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I totally, totally agree. This neighbor has overreacted. I mean, I get it. I wouldn't want a 7:00 AM text for the weekend. Morning. Not really. Not even from you, Dan. Unless again, it was mission critical. This was not mission critical because this plan was later in the in the day later in the morning, and it certainly could have been sent an hour to an hour and a half later and probably been fine. So I think it's an overreaction. But I think the criticism. No. The complaint the complaint is valid, but the way the neighbor has responded with criticism and contempt, I'm going to pull out the four horsemen from Gotman here because it's so great. This is not just for romantic relationship. Communication is good stuff for all communication.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So this this criticism and this contempt were unwarranted and unproductive.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. What I what? I always ask people to do. And this works for anxiety and panic attack. This also works for relationships, stuff and anger. You know, step one is the thing a thing like did this person do something wrong that you think they did wrong? OK, we're going to say. Because if they didn't really do anything wrong, then you're like, you know what? I'm getting mad. Another. So we're going to agree that you shouldn't attack. He shouldn't have texted it. Oh, my gosh. He shouldn't text it at 7:13 AM. The next step, though, is what is the level of insult? Here? It is my response. Consistent with that level of insult. So I'm going to call this. Like out of a scale of zero to 10, I'm going to call one to 10 to call this like a four next thing at 7:13 AM, I'm going to call a four at maybe a three. Out of 10 or. 4 You give me a funny look. Yeah, yeah, no, of course. 3 or 4 out of 10, but I'm going to call the neighbors response like. A nine. So he scored.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, or more. I mean he he was like the nuclear option. Block your asshole neighbor.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Come over, Peter. Yeah, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Have to look at him again. And you're they're. Clearly fun. This is going to be a problem. This is absolutely corruption.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So he's gone. So yes, he has read and sometimes this is a mistake. We make all too often in relationships. And I want to pull this into all relations. I have reason to be upset with my partner or my spouse or my friend or my sister or brother or parent. Whatever I have reason to be upset with them therefore. All of my reactions are justified, and that's where people get into problems.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right by this bad behavior.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like you can be. Right. You the fact that the, the, the, the. That op here did something they shouldn't have done that. I'm going to call it 3 or 4. I know where you are to go. Does it mean the next door neighbor gets to go nuclear on them like to justify it? We do this all the time in our relationships. We're like, I have reason to be upset with my wife or husband or friend or whatever because they did this thing. But like my anger or frustration is far except exceeds what is reasonable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And actually what troubles me even more in my office is than it's often used as a justification for that bad behavior. You violated my boundaries and therefore I get the right to be brutally honest with you. And I just don't think that that is productive. I think we need to. And they hate to say it. I know we sound like broken records, you know, assume positive intent here. You know, if this person wasn't trying to fill up your Sunday morning, they were trying to help entertain your kid for the day. Like this is. Barely a three in terms of the fact.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. OK. So you're calling it what you like?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Have to think I'm five. I don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So you you're lower than I, yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mean I am, you know, the more I think about it, the more the lower it is simply because they jump the gun on something. But ultimately for the good, which is to entertain two kids in an active non screen time kind of way. And I'm doing you the solid I assume offering not only a plan but to take your child, supervise your child. You might even get a quiet house for the day and that's how you're going to respond. I don't think so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You were outside something you accidentally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael's dying over there. He's off camera, but he is dying.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I saw you accidentally text me at 5:00 AM. You're not paying attention, and you wake me up with this message. I'm. Like I like like you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You have no right to respond at your leisure, so if you don't want to respond till 9:00 AM, fine. I don't hear OP throwing down like you gotta get back to me by 8/16 to let me know, because I gotta buy a ticket. But who knows? I mean, maybe that's how the trampoline park works. You gotta get in and you gotta get that admission. I don't know. Especially in a rainy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Unless unless the trampoline park required, like it's going to sell out by 8, unless that's the situation. He waited. He really should, like, looked at his. You know what? And I think I'm going to go with 8:00 is a reasonable time. Next. What do you think? Like, what is the reasonable time to tax on the weekend?

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And this is hard. Young kids 10. To wake up early, we could do a whole discussion about Morningness and morning. Like, you know, kind of qualities to to younger children. And if you have younger children, you probably need to be awake to supervise and younger children. So you're probably up around 7:00. I mean, gosh, my kids used to get up at 5:30 on the weekend. I hated it. I know. And they were, like, ready for the day. Though some planning had to happened, you text me at 7:13 in the morning and I'd have been.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

My pleasure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fine, now less so, but. You know, 8:00 is fine, because now I'm grown as adult and I have this sort of morning morningness to my to my day. I prefer to be up and working, but that's me. And I recognize that other people, you know on the weekends.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like to sleep in until 910 o'clock I fell asleep. Perspective. I don't. That's a good idea unless have aligned with your job. But you know people do it anyway. Because what I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know. I'm working with you for you. I can text you on the weekdays at around 630 probably, although you.

Speaker

Here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Probably up early.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, sometimes earlier if I'm coming. Into the office. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Certainly text you I see. And on the weekends, I probably would wait until 8 now, but I was, I was texting my next door neighbor here. Who who's? Yeah, I probably would. I would probably text him for this kind of thing at 8:00 in the morning. Yeah, I've seen him up and around, you know.

Speaker

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And when?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He when he cut his long at 7:30, that was out of line.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That was on the line, not asshole.

Speaker

If.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're listening. It's not you. I'm talking about. Some other neighbor. If you're listening. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think the part here for me is that text message response is optional and if you don't want to receive a text message silence your phone turned it off. There are many things you can do because you cannot control when a text message comes in and most of us see a text as it is optional. Respond when you're able. If I call you, you're going to be like, oh, shit. Something's going down. I need to answer this call.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, I and I think so. So I mean to to answer these question, am I the asshole protect? Then you're not an asshole. You probably should have waited if you could have waited till 8 or even 830, it's probably more respectful to wait a little bit, but are. You an.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, it's 47 to 48 minutes there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, you're not. Going to. Have now now the neighbors reaction that was complete dickishness that was just just. I like what? What? What neighbor needs to do right now is wander back over and say, dude, I had a really late night last night and I woke up this morning and I was a total asshole to you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like I really am so sorry I sent you that message. I am unblocking you. I am I. I hope you'll forgive my dickish like he shouldn't completely and entirely fall on his sword at this point if he's going to. Try to save this relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Agree absolutely. If, if for no other reason, those kids are going to play together and live next door to this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is this is time that, that, that, that, that, that if he has a partner, his partner should be telling him like, go over there and absolutely, completely throw yourself on his mercy. You are a complete asshole because anything short of that is going to be really hard to. And most people forgive you. That's and those that people forgive me, you know, like I. I was an ask like I really I am so embarrassed by my behavior. It's a good move. In this case I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, all of them, I absolutely agree. And the neighbor was being an asset. So yeah, asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm like and I'm not even willing to call OP. Mildly dickish, I think it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Could have made a better choice and should have waited, but there's no.

Host: Michael:

Voice.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I mean the, the, the designations, right, you're the asshole. You know, the asshole, you know, everybody talks to that kind of thing. I just, I don't think OP even sucks. I think they need a. Missed up, but I understand where that missed up comes from, especially if you don't know the sleep wake patterns of your neighbor. It should have waited till 8:00, but that doesn't make that doesn't make you sucky. Probably anxious. Like. Oh, I want to really want to make sure I got a plan. I don't want to disappoint my kid. I, you know, I don't want to tell him the wrong thing. If I can get an answer, that'd be great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean with. I read the social media post about the neighbors, these neighbors that were feuding over a fence line being like 6 inches on the wrong side and someone popped there and popped in and said, yeah, this happened to me. I went to my neighbor. I'm like, dude, I just found out from a survey that I'm nine inches into your yard with the fence. They looked at me and went 9 inches less the cut watching the game.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's a great. Response I was having that response when we had a properly aligned dispute.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And what? And like this is I mean this is the sort of thing that could have happened here, like, dude, it's 713. Oh shit. My bad. I should. When's a good time for me to reach out to? You know, I'm a late sleep on the weekends. Can you wait till after 9? Absolutely. Totally be wait till after 9. Totally. My bad. I'm sorry. Oh, no, it's it's cool. It's cool. It's cool. Hey, let's see about kids. Came together with tramp. Like, that's the way that should have gone down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

100% I have no arguments, no exceptions. All I get and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The OP's asshole, but probably maybe was a my little thought a little like like, check your watch. Maybe think about it and the next door neighbors. A total asshole. Yeah, alright. We render our verdict. Michael. What? Does the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Excellent. Well, first I want to say I'm totally an obese idea as the early riser, I like having a plan, you know? And as you can attest to, like, sometimes I'm up at 2:00 or 4:00 in the morning and I'll send a message. But I do not expect a response rate then.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael would be the dad. OK 713.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Great. Michael, are you secretly Opie here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Never in his life had he really volunteered to watch somebody else's kid in trampoline park, and now my husband, that wouldn't happen. I mean, you've watched our kids.

Host: Michael:

I definitely. But anyway, especially not a stranger that I. Didn't know very well. Anyway, the, the, the Internet really fell down to paths which are essentially you're. You're not that whole with the. Majority and then some people said, everybody sucks here. Slash gentle. Everybody sucks here. And essentially, I mean there are a lot of the things that you guys said, which is, you know, really you're not the asshole. He should have his notifications set to his preferences. You don't know when he wakes up, you don't know enough about him to that. And then some people kind of got an argument like, well, you need to form that relationship better. You need to make those connections and figure out. How communication works between you and whatever. Then you had the everybody sucks. Which is you should have waited and he should not have overreacted that way, like his overreaction was completely unwarranted. I think my favorite one was this one which? Said if I get notifications when I'd rather be sleeping that wake me up. That's on me for leaving my phone, my sound on, which is a bizarre choice in this day and age. I don't understand this guy's situation. Texts are not instant communication. You can wait to respond to one, whether they're emails or text messages or whatever. If you had called before 9:00 AM, that might have been rude, but you know a text message they can choose to respond to at their leisure, and then this part, which I know you guys love boundaries. So I thought I'd throw this in the. Which was it's only a boundary when you make it clear in advance. Otherwise it's hey, just so you know for next time, please don't call me before. Blah, blah blah blah. And then establish that boundary so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please don't cover this time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm still going to call that a request and that a boundary a boundary is I don't respond to a text at 7:13 in the morning. I don't answer my phone before 8:00 AM.

Speaker

You are correct.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's the boundary boundaries are in your controller requests is what you make of other people. Hey, Dan, don't text me before 8:00 AM on. The weekend is really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, all right. So we'll talk tomorrow. What are we getting?

Host: Michael:

So then the other thing the Internet fell down arguing about was when is an appropriate time to wake? And or to be called, I should say you know, 7:00 AM, eight AM, 9:00 AM. And there was an interesting conversation which you guys kind of got into, which is younger children. You're up anyway. Like, what's the big deal? You know, if you're up at 7 messaging at 7 is fine. If you want to make a plan, that's great text messaging. Feels like a safe, indirect way to get a response when that person is. Eddie in general, it seemed like the Internet consensus was don't call me before 9 on the weekend.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's. You know what? That seems like? A pretty fair consensus. Unless you know otherwise. Like I know my neighbor on that side. Like they're, I. I've seen them up every weekend. I like. If I look out my window out at night at 8:00 in morning. I'm up super. So. Yeah. So I would feel comfortable. Rushing out to them at 8:00 AM, but most of the you know. Most people I. Would I think it's a call after? 9 is good. I might text by 8 might call them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, it's interesting because sometimes I make this decision around when to make a business call. So on a weekday, you know, do you, is it acceptable to call by 8 or 9? I feel like that's drifted a little bit, I think the. When I was coming up in in earlier life, it felt like 9:00, anything earlier was kind of considered rude and I. Think it's drifted? To 8, what do you think?

Speaker

I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would say on a weekday phone call on a weekday, I made a phone call a little after 8.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For Congo. I think that that that I think it depends if you know the person. If I didn't know the person, I would wait till nine. If I know the person, then I'm assuming that I know that they you know what their work pattern might be or their their weight pattern.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, I think that I think that I'm. I mean, there's not a hard and fast rule here for the, you know, the person you don't know very well. But I think those are reasonably good guidelines. Yeah. And it sounds like we agreed for the most part, the Internet. There's also, like, your phone has a do not.

Host: Michael:

No. Disturb feature. It's built in and people argued about that too, like. Well, I need certain people to be able to get through and then they're like, well, you can do that. You can say these people can call me at any time. You know, that kind of thing. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You can. There's a there's a I have an activated it because there's a way of doing it. I don't care. Middle of the night. My phone buzz. Yeah, but if I did care, I would turn on the do not disturb feature and list the people that. I would be.

Host: Michael:

Able to reach me. All right. I almost feel like there needs to be, like as a new parent. There's so many things for you to figure out.

Speaker

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And then when you, I guess when you figure out how to coordinate these relationships, it's like hello, new parent, our children seem to be friends. And what is your schedule like, you know, what is an acceptable time to contact you by? Do you prefer e-mail or text communication? You know, like it's. Like this kind of. Like a dating profile or sort. That's kind of relationship. No, you're both looking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, week conversation after this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love you, dear, but no.

Speaker

Oh.

Host: Michael:

Fair enough. I guess it's just my anxiety.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the way I think there's, you know, Michael, I like, I like I had the same thought, GAIL about, but I just thought I would not not confront Michael directly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, yeah, I you know most things. If I'm going to take someone else's kid to the zoo for the day, the zoo is probably not going to open till 9 or 10 wild hair to do it. I think I can make an arrangement in the morning at a reasonable. I get. Time. I'm just going to assume those boundaries are in. Place. So anyway. Anyway Sally. Thank you.

Host: Michael:

Both very much for another riveting debate, and I glimpsed into the collective just so that your net forms. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white, or 7:00 AM or 9:00 AM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My gosh. All right, Internet. Thank you for the feedback and I guess agreeing with us today, it was so strange after all. Yeah, but don't don't text at 713. Probably good idea, but you know if you do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, don't go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It shouldn't be the end of the world.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But if you do get a Texas 713, don't. Be an. asshole about it. Right? Right. Like, don't do. It, but if. You get the text. Don't be an asshole, yeah.

Host: Michael:

For sure, please follow and share Veritas Views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, especially the ones that have friends or kids, they're your age, I guess, and always stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation is going to be about today.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Last week I talked about lattice clocks. And how she called in. Well, after after a lengthy how that just stuck with me from underground. Are there any like sage words or feedback you received at a young age that you are like or a young new psychologist age that like, yeah, I've carried this with me ever.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Since there is one voice in my head. I know. That I hear. Consistently, probably daily, and I don't think this person knows that he is in my head.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You should. I think I have, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't remember. I feel like I maybe commented on a Facebook. To let them know that I do. I hear this daily. So when I was in Graduate School at the University of Toledo, my major professor was Doctor Wesley Bullock. He's just a lovely man. We did. We worked at the research lab. I learned a lot from him. Just just really a great experience overall. And one of the things that he. Told me as a clinical supervisee and I might have been doing the marriage and family practicing with him. And so I mean, that was kind of his gig as he. Both that modality of work and I remember him saying to me, be curious and you know, and it was this idea of let your curiosity guide you always ask the next question. Don't just accept this answer that pops in front of you and go. OK. Right. And so I hear that in my head.

Speaker

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just on on the daily, just be curious be just a little bit more curious. And I find that really helps propel conversations with with my client.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love that and it it seems that dovetails into something I've been told people who are struggling with a medical or mental health problem and feeling like they didn't get the proper time from their doctor or therapist. I've been to it, I always say like you need to find a doctor.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or a provider or medical. Yeah. Look at your situation and go. Let me think of, I mean. This in training programs as differential diagnosis like what are all the if you start with what all the possibilities are, and then we'd let down because they know that when when medical providers make mistakes, it's often because they went it's. This. Yeah. And that that process of differential diagnosis is critical, but that means being curious, I've not we haven't shared this. Before this meeting, but like I very frequently tell, people like you need to find a doctor or. A therapist. Who. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I find Curiosity is an opportunity for connection. Make sure that I understand someones story. But as you're saying it, it's also empowering a client or a patient to be curious about themselves, ask questions of their doctor. I think curiosity serves us well all around, so I appreciate that advice from Doctor Leslie Bullock from 20 plus years.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ago. Yeah, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, and I would say of course, you know, it's echoed for sure and shows like Ted Lasso, the being curious and not judgmental. That was a great quote from.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

But thanks everyone for tuning in. TuneIn again next week for a whole other am I an asshole Debate. We'll. See you then.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and with great pleasure I welcome you to the show Dan. Psychologist, business partner and friend.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you for the introduction, Gayle. Super excited about being here to. Hear you know. This opportunity to to like like like banter, about about important stuff is. Is pretty cool.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's so much fun. We do it even when we're not recording podcasts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I know. We're like we did purely before this. We were discussing something similar, but anyway. Alright Michael. You have a. Question for us about whether someone's an asshole?

Host: Michael:

As always, for anybody who's new out there, if you don't know what “am I an asshole is”.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're looking into that.

Host: Michael:

Someone on the Internet has put forth this scenario and said who's the asshole and hoping that they'll get fair and honest feedback from the Internet, which is, you know, always to be expected.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Lazy. Bad at best.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then we're going to try to be fair and honest feedback better than the Internet.

Host: Michael:

I agree. I think you guys do a very good job. So I'm going to put it in front of Dan and Gayle. And we'll see what they come up with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You think we do a good job because we have limited amount of information and what we say makes sense for the information we have, but it's a. Great opportunity to remind. Listeners that are determinations, judgments, perspectives are always limited by the information made available to us, just as in therapy room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And by the fact that we're only getting information typically from one person in a complex scenario and sometimes that information is is as to some degree bias of course by their own perspectives. So all right, Michael, go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Please.

Host: Michael:

Absolutely that, I mean that is that's a really good reminder to everybody and it's. Yeah. Thank you for that. But also if you're new and you're like, wow, what did I just stump? Link to the other thing you have to look forward to is after the credits read by our cousin Kelley Brothers Buttrick, there's a bonus conversation, so there's even more conversation after it sounds like everything's wrapping up, but for now neither Gayle nor Dan know this particular topic that we've talked that I've found for them and. Yeah, let's go. This is what we got. Today's is. Am I the asshole for calling a girl over dramatic when she was crying after rear ending me? Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. You will say yes at the same time. At the same time. Yes, yes, we, I mean, unless there's something really, really, really like I like the some of these. We look at this and go well. We really need to hear the context of this that I am struggling in my head right now to come up with a context in which you're not the asshole original.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We did. At the same time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, Sir. And I haven't. And I and I haven't. Even heard the story yet, but can you think of?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We probably should.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Can you think of a story, though? Gayle off the top of your head that makes him not an asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No and I. Guess I'm going to do a little bit of self disclosure. Here, probably less so now, but earlier in my life I was someone who was quick to tear and it didn't take a whole lot and being called overly dramatic or sensitive would have pissed me the fuck right off. Like there's no way that that was going to be productive because my tears were about an emotion, but not, I mean, just calling someone over dramatic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Tends to be an accusation that you are falsely. Getting those tiers to create an opportunity to spotlight yourself, and as someone who has had that experience, that was the last thing I asshole wanted.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And some of us do, some do get gearing sooner than others do and I'm really struggling to find an opportunity. But all right, let's let's. Hear the story, but what we've already decided.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should be really. Should hear the rest of the story because you know, we were talking earlier about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It sounds he sounds like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Limited back we have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He sounds like an asshole. Yeah, based on the title alone. Alright, Michael, please share us a context that might possibly mitigate this guy's already seeming hassle Ness.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Uh-huh.

Host: Michael:

I mean, I'll do my best. I'll read what we got here. So and I do want to apologize if you happen to hear a terrible noise in the background, it it is our cat Griffen playing with a toy and just like flinging around with wild abandoned. So I had to mute myself.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. Well, if you could tell you if. It's good that Kelley mentions these cats in the closing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we usually attribute them as children to the interruptions. And this in this case, it might be the cats creating the interruption. But Griffen is a joy to watch, so I understand not wanting to displace her from this fierce hunt she's on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're not.

Host: Michael:

Alright, so here's here's what we have. Last weekend I attended my brother's college graduation. After the ceremony, I found the trunk of my car, the rear of my trunk had been hit. The other driver was still there. She was an 18 year old who was crying hysteric. Actually, while her mom tried to calm her down, the girl apologized profusely and said she had overestimated how much room she had to back out and hit my car. I wasn't upset because mistakes happened. I asked. She asked if she had insurance and she was too worked up to answer that. So I turned to her mom and she said yes. They go get it, and as we call the police so there would be an official report. The insurance company? No problem. I am keeping my call. I have no. The girl was really worked up, though. I kept trying to tell her it's fine. Don't worry about it. I'm not mad. Accidents happen. I've had these things occur all the time. It's not a big deal. She's still a mess. When the cops show up though, I found this a little over dramatic and I admittedly rolled my eyes. I obviously don't know this girl, but it was beginning to feel like she was trying to manipulate. Their way out of trouble, even though the cop and I both said things happen, the insurance would likely take care of. But eventually the police leave. Then I get my car and I'm ready to leave. My sister was with me the whole time, she told me I was unnecessarily mean to the girl. I said she was being overdramatic for no reason, especially as no one yelled at her the whole time. My sister pointed out this girl is likely a new driver, probably worried, cheaper and. Whoever was there to celebrate, plus, she was worried about her insurance rates going up and anxiety and who knows what. I didn't have to be a dick about it. I should have shrugged, shrugged it off, and let it go. So far, her insurance has been cooperative, and it seems like this will all be resolved rather quickly. The subject.

Speaker

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wait, wait. OK, go ahead. Please continue.

Host: Michael:

Almost the subject came up at a party we had for my brother. Most of my family thought I was being a dick. Some agreed she needed to calm down. Who's the asshole in this scenario?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. OHP. I'm gonna call you an asshole. Really, without a whole lot. Here's here is why. Because OP has made this about themselves and this this amount of tier and emotional upset is not about the persons who vehicle who got hit here. This is about the internal state of this young girl. This. 10 year old who you know, connected cars. However hard this person keeps telling her to calm down. It's not a big deal, but again they assume it's about them. They've made this about them and are not taking that moment to say this girl is having an entire experience of her own, and it doesn't matter if someone else is saying. It's fine. I'm not mad about it. She's upset and you're neglecting the fact that she's. Upset about this?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, you tell, you tell the spot on there. Now I will say that my I wasn't as.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And a little.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You did. You did. I wasn't as mad at him at during the storm. So you can ask, although you're wrong. Be clear. But I was, in fact, I thought based on the title that he had called her while she was, like, crying and weeping and all that an asshole right over. He said they're being over dramatic. It sounds like he he implied if she caught the eye, if she caught the eye roll, he was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sounds like. May have. May have said that. But then didn't recount it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Being that. That was certainly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But he he recounts the part I think we are assuming that this is a he, but in the OP he is discussing with sister after.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We are assuming that the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I think that the assumption here is that Opie is a male. So we've got some gender norms happening here, which is.

Host: Michael:

It is a correct assumption. In this case he does identify as man. I'm sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, OK, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just for pronoun use, but OK. But he is in discussing with his sister and there is discussion that he called her over dramatic. So while he doesn't state it in the in the post about the series of events.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He sort of implies that it happened, even if it's just it. Was more than that, I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think what I'm curious about here is the, the first thing that like like let me go because we talked before we even started about how science will give their own biased perspectives. He he described himself as just being super nice like I am. I totally understand. And I totally get it. Like I I like it. It's fine. It's OK. I just want to call the police to get a police report. It's fine. It's OK. And it's only transgression he admitted to was an ill when the police were at some point in, in the police interaction. And then he said he gets back into the car where his sister was so she wouldn't have seen me. I will. And my question is. If you were being so super nice, why did your sister say you're being mean? Were you really being as nice as you think you were? Like he. There's something in here that is incomplete. About his description of his interactions, because like if she'd be like, if he really was all that he described like you would got the current sister. Where what? Why you really handled that pretty well. Like, you're so nice to her. You know, she like damage your car. Like it was really nice of you to not be not be a dick. But instead she's like, why are you being mean to her? And he's like, I'm not being mean to her. She was overreacting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, go off.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not buying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It. Yeah. No, I do agree. And I think sometimes we think outwardly that we are being so nice or calm and others don't see it that same way. There's almost this sort of emotion, blindness or we think we're doing a good job. Of containing that emoji. But nonverbals are really strong and can be, you know, picked up on. But even I think both things are true. I suspect the OP is not nearly as nice and calm and collected and whatever is as he thinks he is. And I think he also failed to realize that this girl's upset was not necessarily. Going to be calmed by anything that he was going to say because she was involved in such of her own aspect of this, unless it was made worse by the fact that he was actually made maybe more of a dick than he had insight into. And then it is about him and he needed to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well. I. Hey, Sir, shut up. Shout out to Gladys Koxi here. Gladys. Glaxo was my sociology professor back in 1980. Something and Gladys was quite elderly at the time. And I'm I'm. I'm I'm sad to say, she's probably no longer with us, but shout out to Gladys Box that he used to who used to comment on leakage. I love the term I. Good. Because he'll, he'll say she she used to tell people like there's some leakage going on here, meaning that you're letting your emotions show through in your body language.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh I thought you meant from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The eyes. No, no, no, no. She called it leakage. When? When someone was outwardly like. Ohh yeah, I'm fine. And they were. And like, I remember her using this. When when? When some student was talking about something and that their leg was really had had suddenly started shaking my. More and she said there's some leakage here of emotion. What's that leakage in such a such a wonderful such a such a wonderful thing that that, that doctor Fox like, it's something that it it stuck with me for these many years. This idea of emotional leakage showing in our body language and I see it we see it in couples all the time when when someone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, interesting. I like that so. Lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Things that they're being very reasonable, but their shoulders are up and they're they're tight and they're and they're there's a they're they're there's an intent and like, well, I'm being really nice. Like, no, it's really obvious to the person who loves you, who knows you for 15 years that you're not fine.

Host: Michael:

Uh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I see this in. Individual work as well, where someone will try to convince me. They're fine. And then there is that nonverbal tell. And really or even. Just you know, I think it's interesting. And here, here's maybe our aside for today is I'm sure you do this to Dan, which is or one of many is when you greet your client and you ask you know how are you doing today, right. It's a simple question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Looking for one of them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But and it. Gets asked a lot, and I remember from my college days in 1990, mid 1990s, I worked in an academic department, so I'm going to take this even for those. And one of the like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Further advising Gladys Boxa, what's that further than Gladys Cox?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh no, I'm doing the side too and. A side.

Speaker

Ohh. OK, alright, alright, alright.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The side doing a side so that's why it's taking further off. So I worked in an academic department of. It was actually. The Department of History and Philosophy if. It matters so. I was a psychology student, but I had gotten this job and there was a philosophy professor who was really interesting, Doctor Frank. And he just philosophers, right? I mean, they're just an interesting bunch of people. And he was talking about how folks would ask you a question, like, how are you? But not really listen to the answer. And so he sometimes would give a flip an. Answer like. fuck you. Thanks. And he would kind of like, keep going. He'd leave the intonation. As if it was an appropriate response, but give an inappropriate response just to kind of talk with people and see who is listening. And very often nobody knows. This now I think about this a lot because when I asked my clients, you know, how are you? Doing. In part because Doctor Franks really alerted me to the fact that this question gets asked and people don't actually listen or don't want an honest answer. Right, right. I listen to the answer because I'm a therapist, but because I'm also aware of this phenomenon and so people will often. Come into my office and they will tell me they're fine and there will be leakage where it will tell you they're not fine. They're really not fine. So let me try that again. How are you? And they will sometimes stop and go. Ohh yeah. No, that's that's why I side to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The aside? No, but it's but it but it but it it's it's it's so true. And I and I think that we're bringing this back to the original story. Yeah. Do you think he? He thought he was handling it just fine. But what we know is that is that if he's telling, which is fine but his body language is not his own and he put insulation all this stuff. The words maybe I'm just. Mine and and our second aside here is how often does that happen? When couples are. Having a dispute and one of them is like kept it. I told her I was sorry and she kept being mad at me and said, well, how did you say I'm sorry? You said like I'm really sorry I messed. Up or like. I'm sorry. OK. I'm sorry. With an apology. And one is not an apology. What is? Shut up and stop giving me a hard time. And the other one is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because I'm. I'm sorry for what I did, and we get caught up in in these words. Like I said, I'm sorry when you didn't say you're sorry, you know, or you meant or maybe maybe you meant. I'm sorry. But you said it because you're still angry in an angry tone. And the person that heard it is not about ISIS.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You made for the work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All the time. Yeah, but people will say, well, I said this thing that they wanted. Me to hear. Like I did this reflection task and you told me to do and they stayed mad versus. No, you didn't. And we get down to. They used the words but they they totally missed the. Tone and and intonation and volume. All the other things they communicate that are so much more important than actual words, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it's really important to check within yourself what you're saying. Would you accept that if it were given to you by another person? Especially in the case of I'm sorry if you would you accept it? I'm sorry, OK? And if you wouldn't accept that as an apology, that wouldn't feel good. It wouldn't heal the hurt or the pain. And maybe that's not the apology you should try to give you. Maybe need to take another 10. Or 15 minutes to to let your own by. Allergy cooled down a. Little bit so. That maybe the intention of the sorry you would like to give can match up with the NONVERBALS, which is I've really made a mistake and I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm really sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you talked about this idea of emotional blindness in this episode or previous.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One, we talked about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Today, Doctor, I know we talked about. Today, yeah, this idea of the book.

Speaker

Also blame you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can't turn on my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Check TV maybe? But there was but this and I use this example with lots of people. Have you ever closed it or have you been in the middle of an argument? The site and tried to close the door getting behind. He doesn't close gently, it slams and then the other person like why did you slam the door? You're like I didn't slam the door. Not you, you know.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Couples a lot and again, and then the couple gets an argue about whether or not the person slanted or the reality is, if you're angry and you close it or behind you, you're probably gonna do it with more force because we use more energy and that we really need to be careful about how we move our bodies. When when angry and how we interact when we're angry. Because even if we're coming to conciliatory point, unless we take a deep, really deep breath. And slow down and with intent change, tone volume, etcetera, we're likely to come off still angry. And that then that conciliatory moment may be lost because the words get lost behind the tone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I adequately 100%. And the other part of the story for me is what do you do when? Let's say you're probably not. There, your emotions line up your with your nonverbals and someone is still upset. You know, I think we have to be careful with other people's upset because I think many of us. Are bothered by that and we internalize it as if it's our fault and it becomes hard to sit with someone when they're that upset, especially if we don't assess the situation as threatening or bothersome in the. Way and so how do you sit with that when someone is is distraught and you don't get it or you know, or you find yourself feeling defensive? Like, but I didn't. I didn't do that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And almost. No matter what the distress is, it is our habit to try to calm people. It is not how it is a human beings when interacting with other human beings will often say. Factory things or or messages intended to be reassuring, but that often feel invalidating like oh, it's going to be OK. You're gonna be fine. You're, you know, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna. You'll find another this or you'll do this. It's gonna be OK and calm down and just so much better. With the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Emotion it it is. And and I think we we also have to be careful about assuming that we caused that emotion. Right. I think there's.

Host: Michael:

I can't keep that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Oh yeah. Sorry here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I mean, I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. He couldn't calm her.

Speaker

In the thinking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Down because he didn't cause the he didn't cause the effect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And I get that you know as a stranger it's not necessarily his job to to fix whatever that narrative is, but he certainly could have taken an opportunity to hear it and to explore with her or sit with her as she is just, you know, I understand these are really stressful situations. And probably kind of scary. You know what? Is there anything I can do to help? You right now. And honestly, moving toward that emotion, and I know you're like, well, I. Don't you solve it, but I'm gonna. Disagree with you? That's OK. That's OK. We can disagree. And. That's fine, but to my. Point here for a moment is sometimes when we move in the direction of the upset. Or sit with it with someone that investment in time on the front end can save us on the back end. We can spend, you know, an hour and a half on something because someone is distraught and has trouble moving through all of it. Or we can spend 10 or 20 minutes just sitting with them and difficult. Emotion or or, you know, or being or something and maybe solve it in an hour. Totally like like like we get some time savings when we pay attention to human emotion.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like. Like I totally agree with you. If we're talking about like someone in your life you care about to, just to sit with them and just let them vote for that time before doing any intervention or or anything to try to resolve it. This case, though, and where I disagree, is in this case with OP. Here his role was to just like say, you know what? I'm totally cool. I'll be in my car when maybe she's with her mom her. Mom's got. This sure. Like she he doesn't need to do. Anything other than this?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're right, you're right in my mind, she. On her own.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no. She's on the phone with her mom. At this point. You can go. You know what? I'm just going to call the police, get a police report. Totally. Good. Like, I'll be in my car waiting. You talked to your mom and I'll be. I'll be if you have any questions. I'll be here. But like for Keith. Just back off. Get in the car. Wait. Give sister the whole time. Now, if this is someone. If you're taking this out to our side.

Host: Michael:

We're great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kind of outside conversation and it's different.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or or.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, we're friendly comes to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Message back person of this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You with the same distress. Then I totally agree with you. Listen to her. Hear her out. Don't try to calm her down immediately. It's OK for her to have emotions. We. It's OK for the people in her life to have emotions. Once she's had a chance to talk about it and really get it out. Then you can, like, intervene in that loving, caring way that that would. Help the person. But they've got to get there. They've got sometimes you just need to. Tell their story. Yeah, you know, even if they have told the before, even if it's not important information that could tell the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Story. Yeah. No, I agree. I completely thank you for reminding me that mom was somewhere on the scene. I can't remember. She was on the phone or should be next to there. And it doesn't matter. She was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Present. But you know the massage facts version of this is it's just he and she, you know, even his response is there someone I can call. Yeah, it it. Like get the phone. But I will tell you, you know, I think most of the time from from a police perspective, they now tell you stay in your vehicle. Yeah, right. Like your job is not to interact because you can actually just make the scene worse. So we just also need to acknowledge that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know when you have two strangers interacting around something like tense like this that that that I think law enforcement. Recognizes that it can get problematic quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we're going to render a verdict here. You then ask.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, we should. He's an.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He's an. Athole. Yeah. Yeah, he he is probably.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We. Not wrong in our initial first flush with this, just read the headline and then right back we had this whole meandering conversation.

Speaker

You didn't. You didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. At least he didn't. He didn't call her over. Say he's over it. She's over acting her face. Although the eye roll. If she caught it says that without.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I'm still not certain he didn't. I think he massaged the story as he posted online to admit the words. But I, it seems to me when he told his sister, it was obvious. But I will certainly made it obvious.

Speaker

My.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We did something here, no. I think. And the sister, certainly. And the sister calling him out for being mean to her suggests that he's left something out, either intentionally or through lack of self-awareness. And I would assume positive intent. We'll say it's due to his own lack of personal awareness, but he he there's something missing from this story or his sister wouldn't miss that. That so he was he was being asked.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Lacked curiosity and he assume. Owned this framework, which was she's being dramatic and she needed to be curious about her emotional state. He wasn't. He just made. He made a judgment.

Speaker

Can I?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I had teenage drivers in my world. They get into accidents sometimes and often react very strongly with it. And I just can't. I just can't get and this is it. Yeah, he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Was being there alright? I'm laughing cause you said that and until you said that I forgot. I the first damage that I did to a vehicle. Backing out of a garage in a Dodge. Dakota 4x4. It was my dad's truck and like my dad had wanted the truck for a long time. So like, this was kind of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And you're paying attention. And the car wasn't expecting that. You backed into? It right, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I it was a tight fit in a an older style 2 car garage. It was. It was a tight fit and I was on my way to an extracurricular activity. I think my parents weren't home. I backed out and I hit the side mirror on the side of the garage.

Speaker

Ohh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or. Or maybe it was the side of the truck. Now I don't remember. It was one of those things anyway, and I drove to the thing, and I was so upset the whole time because I was just certain my parents were going. My dad especially just going to be pissed. And I came home and I fessed up, and I remember, like, I probably was like that girl. I'm just like, and. And I was probably no more than 18.

Speaker

Yep, Yep.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it was all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, tears high and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's probably raining that night or something like that. Like it happened. Like it was, it was bound to happen. Like we'll just get it fixed. Yeah. Like it was like, such such not a big deal. It was kind of like, like climactic. So having having been a teenage girl, I completely get this reaction and being totally wrapped up in something that you expect to happen and just didn't turn out that way. It was, it was really OK and.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I remember that moment of kindness and I know that that's going to happen for my teenage driver and and I want to have that. That moment of kindness when it does.

Host: Michael:

Well, now that you both rendered your verdicts, let me tell you what the Internet said. And it really was. It was probably 6040 split 60%. You're the asshole. 40%, not the asshole. And it was funny. It was funny. The things that kept coming up in the comments, a lot of them, you know, said you can't control emotions. Like she's entitled to how she feels. And sometimes you can't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And control them yourself. You know, like you don't know what she was going through the telling people to calm down and chill never work.

Speaker

OK.

Host: Michael:

Like like you said Dan, the best advice really would just be to say like really, I'm not concerned. I'm gonna go back to my car. I'm gonna do my thing, but by inserting himself and Repeatingly repeatedly telling her to calm him down was not a good thing. A lot of people speculated, you know, like as an 18 year old and they often.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Never. Never.

Host: Michael:

Impose their own stories like yours. Gayle, you know where it was like. Well, you know, the first time I got an accident, you know, going through my head were things like my parents are being mad at me. The financial burdens of repairs and insurance. The holy shit. I hit someone, and they're gonna be mad at me. Even if I, you know, even if it wasn't huge. The accident hitting a car is a scary and kind of violent experience. It's unexpected and shocking. You know, police are here. Holy shit. I'm in trouble, you know, embarrassment about driving this car that is dented afterwards and having people ask what happened and having to relive it all over again and you know, like all these things that come into that. And that kind of emotional. And the few people I say the few you know, like I said, it was probably about 40% of the people who went with not the asshole, essentially fell into the camp of, you know, you didn't do anything wrong, which they overlook a lot of things. Right. Like you guys have said.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He he, he. He may not think it. He didn't. He doesn't think. He did anything wrong but. I.

Host: Michael:

Do love in this scenario, we have the sister's perspective and you know, it's one of those. Again, it's still filtered through him. So we're only getting the sister filtered through the guy who did this, his perspective of it. So we don't really know what the sister thought or said, but the very fact that he. Expressed a willingness to say something contrary to his perspective, from his sister. Like you said, probably mean she had more to say about it than what was displayed, but right? Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Something that caught my ear, which is I just want to acknowledge the role of socialization here. We have a mail poster. Saying your emotion is making me uncomfortable. Those are his words, but essentially, calm down. You're being overly dramatic. Think about it from a sociological perspective. Here for a moment, as males are tend, they tend to be socialized in a way, suck it up, don't feel emotion close off from that right. And so now we have this guy following his sort of gender norm behavior of having this sort of uncomfortable reaction to emotion. I'm not. Changing my verdict about us whole or not, but you know, it's one of the things that we didn't talk about. It's how often males are socialized to shut down and distance from emotion, and that tends to be their reaction to others, because that's the ones that they know. And so part of the vulnerability of being human and connecting to other humans is pushing beyond that box. And I think emotions especially. Strong emotions, tears. They tend to to be shut down. Be a big boy. Don't cry right. Be tough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, yeah. Rubber bird on it walking Ben.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so I think there. Is a fair amount. Of that going on here for him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But yeah, and. It it certainly is, it certainly is messages that that young boys often get, you know, walk it up a little, they're they're gonna walk it off by and. And I think it adds to that discomfort. Men often feel with their own emotions. Mm-hmm. And and and extends to men with others.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Often wanting to minimize or decrease emotions. Right, you know, I I love the idea of like, like let's normalize men crying so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So I just thank you Michael for sharing.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not from the Internet because I think that perspective was something we didn't do a good job of including and we wanted, I think we needed to talk about.

Speaker

That a little.

Host: Michael:

Bit today. Sure. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and to the glimpse and a glimpse into the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black and white.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Emotions are tough things to sit with people, and they're really tough to watch. Someone else have when you're not at that same level, be kind, be gentle, and maybe try sitting with someone's pain just quietly.

Host: Michael:

Sure. Please follow and share of our test views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and. And as always, stick around through the credits for bonus conversation. This week we returned to a glimpse into the objects in a therapist office and where those came from.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride: @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, Gayle. Yeah, we haven't done this things in our office in a little while. You've got a coffee mug that says world's OK. It's therapist.

Host: Michael:

Please share I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Will thank you. This is a mug that I championed for a while. I really I really wanted. It was a gift from my your husband our our podcast host and. What I had. Hoped it was going to say was worlds okayest mom, but it works both ways. Those OK? Psychologist world's OK. It's mom. You know, there was this time in my life where it was just really helpful to remember. I wasn't going for this Blue ribbon badge of the world's greatest anything because the reality is I'm never going to be the world's greatest mom, nor am I going to be the world's greatest psychologist. You know, though, that moniker goes to a lot of really smart therapists and researchers. That would be me. And if I spend my life pursuing this idea of great, I will forget.

Speaker

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To be really satisfied and work with OK and OK is OK. And I like. This even from the your feed Dotson law of performance right? You need enough push to to be activated and interested, but not so much that you freak yourself out and so there's this this lovely distribution curve of just the right amount of anxiety to push you to do.

Host: Michael:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your peak performance and I really thought between those two things, it was really important for me to keep in mind that I wanted to be the world, OK, psychologist, and in doing so, I actually would sort of in that way level up my performance and. Have really good psychologist.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So it is a reminder to myself. I sometimes show it to my clients to remind them as well we're not, we're not going to get this great, it's unlikely, but we can optimize our performance by just being good with.

Host: Michael:

OK. Well, and I would say you know, best shifts and changes you know in terms of different aspects of what you do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Perfect. Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sure. So. Oh, and then you get into. Am I really doing the best I can? And you know, the reality is, you know, we're all doing the best we can in the moment that we're in with the information we have. And you know, and maybe the psychological resources we have in in any moment and that varies from times day-to-day and hour by hour. So you know it it again, it's just a reminder, let's shoot for, OK. OK. It's good enough. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thanks for tuning in TuneIn again next week for a whole other am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In the episode, Gayle and Dan referenced:

R. Barry Ruback and Daniel Juieng's 2006 article in the Journal of Applied Social Psychology, "Territorial Defense in Parking Lots: Retaliation Against Waiting Drivers": https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1997.tb00661.x 


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

HI'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and with me today is Doctor Daniel Kessler. I am so happy to be doing this again today with another podcast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and I'm freshly. From Costco, having run my Sunday morning errands and ready to record.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, is that what you do with your Sunday morning? Just Costco runs we try to always get to the farmer’s market.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I do live in suburbia. It's it's a bit. It's a bit shameful, but but yes, it's not an unusual Sunday morning thing to. Run to Costco so there. You go. Yeah. If there were a farmers market near me, I would be there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, it's lovely. And it's sad. It's coming to an end here very soon. Because Fall is here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We live in Minnesota. That happened. Yeah, for all of our listeners out there, we're in Minnesota. So it's getting nice and cold. Michael we we've done let's we're gonna dispense with the small talk now and ask you to ask us about what big questions for us for this week?

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome to both of you. And for any of the newbies out there. If you don't know, what “am I the asshole” is, in short, someone on the Internet has posted a scenario and asked, who's the asshole here. And that's why I put in front of Dan and Gayle and see what they have to say. Hopefully they'll be able to figure something out when there's identify and identifiable information in the post. We've changed those to be a little more discreet. And if you're new, stick around through the credits. We always have a bonus conversation afterwards. But neither Dan nor gal know what I'm about to read for them or share. So, so let's go. Today's topic is, am I the asshole for not waking my wife up and letting her sleep the whole day?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What? Maybe so, sometimes you can you can really have a snap judgment here, but this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. Is great pause. Because there is really one of two ways that they can see this going one way where you're the asshole and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The other where you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not right. I mean, I could totally see like like This is why we should read the whole thing here. The whole thing for sure. Like, if she said wake me up and he dDidn't he kind of an asshole feeling well. I'm going to expect. I'm gonna speculate something. I'm gonna speculate that he was going. I bet she'd really like to sleep in today, and I'm just gonna be a good guy. And let her sleep in. And she was. Going like I plan to get up in. The morning and now she's in order. Maybe not unreasonably so, but we should probably hear that I'm just totally projecting. So you like to make up additional?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Any judgments. OK, Michael, could you have some actual facts for us?

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I'll. I'll read the rest of it for you. So it's a mid 30s couple if that factors in they've been together for 14 years and married for 10, two daughters, four and six years old. The wife in question who got to sleep the whole day away is a doctor and she works ridiculously long. Hours gets tired. Yesterday she came home from being HomeAway all day. She was on call and needed to go in for emergency surgery and told me that she was going to sleep for a couple. Hours and asked me to wake her up for dinner so she could see the girls and I for a little bit left around 5:00 PM and I tried to wake her up at 7:00 PM, I called for her, shook her gently, gave her a kiss on the cheek, but she didn't wake up. She's a very light sleeper, and these are things that wake her up 90% of the time, I thought. She probably needed the rest and let her sleep. She slept until the next morning, which is when she had to go to work. She was extremely upset with me the following morning, saying I should have woken her up and that I caused her to miss an entire day of family time. I explained that she didn't get up and I was just afraid that she really needed to sleep. And that's why I didn't wake her up. I get that she wants to be present and her family and she is. And she wants to see her kids. But I just wanted her to get sleep and not be worn down. Am I the asshole for not waking her up in this situation?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, this is tough I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is this is. Well, I mean. The problem is that that almost to to render a verdict of assault, we sort of established that you. To have and this has come up a lot before men's. Ray, you gotta have this a guilty mind. Where you're you're doing something out of line when you know better. And so the question is that so she certainly wanted him to wake her up, and she clearly wanted him to be more assertive in his waking techniques than he was because she didn't wake up. And he and. And he failed her in that regard. Does that make him an asshole because he did interpret like ohh, she's really tired. I care about her. Like there's that caring aspect. But there's also that like I'm making decisions for her aspect, maybe like, what are?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your thoughts here? Yeah, I. This is a great question because I think it falls. Into some real Gray area when you talk about men's area. Well in the moment he wasn't intending to rob her of the family time, but that was the old. Come and he as a you know, higher order thinking adult understood that if she didn't wake up she would not have time with the girls that day he was aware of those factors and to some extent that had to be at play when he's making this decision he decides not to be more aggressive. In his waking techniques, and did make a decision for her and for her body to some extent when she. Because she has been explicit about what she wanted and he didn't follow through. I I am struggling with the decision and yeah, I am struggling with his decision. I don't think it makes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Him an asshole, I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Host: Michael:

I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sidebar conversation here. Yeah, we've all been in anyone who's been in a really long term relationship has had that moment when their partner was doing something they shouldn't be doing because of their physical ability, physical health etcetera, etcetera. And maybe I'm wrong, maybe that maybe this is. Universal, but I think of it as it certainly happened in my marriage both ways. Like, hey, honey, maybe you shouldn't be climbing up on that ladder. You're nearly a 60 year old man, and you're not terribly coordinated. You could fall in yourself or, gosh, you're, you know, you're not feeling well today. Perhaps it's not a good idea for you to be up and about and working. Maybe at some rest time would be good. But we do this for our partners. Do you do you? Well, who's not deserving?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, for sure, absolutely. Or, you know, I know you're you're backing a little bit Tweety today. You know, why don't I take this on instead or? Something like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we do that and.

Host: Michael:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we and. And within some relationship there's even a bit of of of of like. Gosh, I know. My husband isn't, you know, let me be. Let me push like there's a little bit of like where is where we cross the line into being overly pushy with our partner when we know they're doing something harmful to themselves and where it's like, is it OK to say hey? Like like that's a bad idea like. Or or, you know and. And he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When you're communicating about it right in these examples, you have two wakeful adults having a conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About the choice that one adult is making, and that adult can continue to make that choice, said 60 year old man can climb that ladder sympathetically, even at the at the advice against the advice of of the house. But you know, it's not like the concerns spouses and running in front of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And sometimes does.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

60 year old man and climbing the ladder instead. You know at at the Navy. You know you. You send a a teenage or young adult child up that ladder. Said and cut off said husband. Is that the same as not waking? This house maybe.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I really tend to, I really can't see. No, it's not. You're right. But I can see both of the perspectives here. I mean, at them she did very clearly communicate. Wake me up at the moment he was trying to wake her up. Like she's exhausted and she's wearing the Cam. She's clearly, like trying to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is like the parallel. Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do all of. The things you know do her do the. Her job and be a be a mom and she's trying to do all the things and she's not able in the moment to do all the things. Yeah. So like and. And at that moment, he's trying to wake her up and she's exhausted. She's probably like, ohh whoa, you know, garbally that's gonna. And like, I can totally see him. Going oh God. She's just let me just. She's exhausted. This usually wakes her up. Like I know it's easy to wake up. Typically she's not. This time I should. I should let her sleep and I could. Totally. See her wake up in the morning going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really wanted to spend that time. With the kids, why didn't you wake me up? You told? Me. Wake me up like I can put. Myself in either one. Of. Their shoes and probably myself feeling the way that, but I could also find myself feeling exactly I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would 100% be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Think where they ohh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. Like I would be. I don't think. Yeah, I mean, we're we're talking. About whether or not there's an asshole. Here and I don't think he intended to rob her of the evening, right, that that sort of asshole stance up I'm needing to do something that's causing you harm versus the fact that what I did cause. Pain and this can cause pain and discomfort to this mother, who is working a sounds like somewhat unpredictable schedule and she has very limited time with the girls and I know this is a parent and how precious some of these moments are and how when you're in it. I don't know if anybody else experienced this parenting this way. Parenting seems to be just this. Like interminable slog that's so hard, and yet, you know, cognitively. Like it's going. To be a flash of a button until as much as it might be hard in this moment, you also know it's Super Time limited and you need to. You need to kind of like be present in those hard moments, even if they're hard right to be present for parenting, because it really doesn't last as long as it feels like when you're. In those hard moments and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course, the joyous moments go so quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I really I have. I've struggled to use the word asshole. Yeah. I mean I think that, you know we we talked a lot about this in couples therapy with our clients. Your partners need to let you down you know your your partner's gonna I let my wife down sometimes sometimes she lets me down this isn't a big secret. All couples, we let our partners down. Sometimes we can't do all the things and do all the things right. And sometimes we make mistakes and we let our partner out. You probably don't ever let your partner. Know Gayle, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well. You know, I'm Mary Poppins. Perfect.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, absolutely. But I'm I'm certain I'm certain that we we all, but we all realistically sometimes what our partners found and the question is like. How does each partner handle it? Like how do you handle it when your partner lets you down? And how do you handle it when you realize you let your partner down? And I think that's the crucial part when you that's the crucial thing we work on with couples in. In therapy is something with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think there's a natural reaction when your partner has let you down to feel frustrated and emotional, and you know none of us have a perfect response? You know, I think sometimes couples get tripped up and.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just like, OK, I'm doing couples therapy and we're working on our communication, and now I'm supposed to have this perfect response and my my partner sometimes then also comes to expect it. Like, hey, man, you have all the tools. And so your response to this difficult situation is supposed to be perfect. And it's not what I would love to see them do is be able to come together and have a conversation. After this, let down and sort of process it because again I'm gonna. I'm gonna go back to what Kessler says all the time, which is assume positive intent. She is sort of magnifying. I think this experience as being as missing the few hours that she would have in the. Evening. And I think she is, maybe even in her mind, there's like this over generalized kind of pattern. So it starts to add up to a catastrophe. I've got a couple of types of distortion labels here going right. And I think it feels really frustrating for her because it's it. It is all right in front of her face. And as they talk about it as a couple.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would love for her to say like, wow, I was really disappointed that I missed the evening with the girls I missed. Dinner. You know I. Missed so much because I'm on. Call or in surgery or whatever it is. That even if I don't. Wake up as easily as I might. I really want you to to to really, you know, persist. This is important to me no matter what. And yet I can understand that if I didn't wake up the way I normally do, why you thought I needed more rest? That maybe I was a bit more rundown than usual or or something. And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And assume positive. From this spouse, who was charged with waking her in the morning, yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I think. The exact same thought. I think that if he like it like I she had the opportunity to be like I appreciate you. Yeah. And you made a mistake. Like you judged wrong at the moment and that hurt me. It was. There's an opportunity for him to say I. Yeah, I made a judgment in the moment I was wrong. Yeah. And my incorrect action.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You and that you lost out this opportunity. I know in the future I will handle this very differently than I did or have a conversation about how we would like to handle similar situations in the future when I have a judgment to make and you know, and and for him to be able to own that he that he hurt her, albeit unintentionally, what happens here is she gets caught up in being hurt. And gets mad at him and he gets caught up in like, I tried to do the right thing and my wife's all mad at me for no good reason because I was trying to do the right thing and his his getting caught up in that. He's gonna getting caught in his hurt, kept her from hearing her hurt and it's bonding appropriately. Could have been. Yeah, I yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. And I think that's where couples miss so often is they stay in the content of the argument and it's to come back to the process and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. We we. We can maybe sometimes even resolve or problem solve that content in the moment, but being intentional. About the process as a couple is the thing that makes your conversation. And your negotiation, the difficult moment, much more powerful throughout the course of your relationship.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And they see her waking up in the morning and ah, I feel so good. I missed. Like, in that moment, like just ohh I you know I tried so hard and like being real and like, why didn't you wake me? You know, like and I see him wandering in like in the morning with a cup of coffee. Like, here's your time shirt and get like, getting hit with this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey. Fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, mad and going, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love that expression. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But but then and getting it but then doing what couples do so and we all do not just couple but like when our partners angry like sometimes the initial response is defensiveness and mitigation. But to do that. But I was trying to, but you know you you don't understand how explain to you and like we get all. This like defensive wall that goes up, sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, as opposed to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Stop mid send is there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. But as opposed to to even just saying like I, yeah, I sometimes talk to couples about, you know. Just name it. Name the defensiveness. Gosh, I'm feeling really defensive about this right now. Picking need a minute and then come back with with a call or kinder response. But I think the moment you call up with offensiveness, then we can talk about it a little bit. Why do you feel so defensive? Well, because I kind of make the right decision. Then I'm really disappointed in myself. But, you know, on the coin toss of Waker. Or don't Waker. You know, I, I got tails when the call was. Had. Yeah. Yeah, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's unfortunate, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is for sure, yes.

Host: Michael:

So if we have to render a verdict where? Do you ultimately fall?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Anybody. Well, I think the lucky part isn't the decision of the moment that we're being asked about. I think the sucky part is the lack of communication afterwards and in both in those cases, I would say that there is some mild to maybe starting with moderate suckiness.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nobody there. Yeah, I'm not even implying ticket.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But. Until they. They process the disappointment with each other as opposed to the original ASK, which is about waking or not waking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I mean he. Made it. He made a judgment call. Those incorrect. We can agree that he he made a judgment call that was incorrect down. He made a mistake. Was that around he just he disappointed her. I'm not calling. I can't call him an asshole for that. It was it wasn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's not even in. Yeah, the same effort.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The right choice. It was a mistake. Yeah, but. That still requires you to like really you have to be a dick about it. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

About it, yeah, you have to know you're doing. Something wrong and do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I don't think she's being a dick about it. I think she woke up. In the morning. And was really upset and hurt and probably went, went went, you know, with that hurt like ideally she would have talked to him about it. But in the moment I could totally see that it. Would be very hard.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I mean, I think that point is this, this disappointment that accompanies expectation. She had an expectation that she would wake up and have some time with. The girls and she. Didn't meet that expectation. Therefore her disappointments. You know, I think the quote is something like, you know, disappointment is on met expectations, right. The bigger the expectation, the bigger the expectation, the bigger that disappointment. She had a big expectation, but what didn't factor in what wasn't realistic for her. Was the fact. That she wouldn't be roused from her sleep. State now she must have been sleeping. Pretty solidly to not wake up with some of those, you know, lighter gestures and she like he expected. That, you know, a soft nudge or a small kiss would would do the trick, and it didn't and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Things like that, like I'm excited, seems like I was checking in Michael how long into this sleep was she? It was two hours, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know. Dwellers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Two hours. So so we're. Getting the no, no. Doesn't matter. At two hours in, she's near the beginning. The sleep cycles are 90 minutes in duration, and those first sleep cycles we hit a lot of stage 3 sleep most of the time he's waking up. He's probably waking up in the morning and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, no, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This morning we're in shallow sleeper in Stage 2 sleep at the beginning of sleep. Like you know this game already. I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Telling you that right now, but I wanted to set you. Up because we haven't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Talked about this. Yeah. Ohh yeah. Yeah, but thank you for. The setup. I appreciate it. I'm gonna. I'm gonna spike the ball. Now so like like what we have here is we're in the 2nd 90 minute sleep cycle and in that 2nd 90 minute sleep cycle about 30 minutes and you're going to be in stage. Three sleep Stage 3 sleep. It's not that his wife is normally a shallow sleeper. She's normally a shallow sleeper. In the morning when he's waking up and she slept all night. That's. When we're in stage 2 sleep now she's in the. Deep sleep. It's very hard to rouse someone from stage 3 sleep, and he's gonna have to make a strong effort at waking up with this. And he didn't know this and she might not know this in the moment. I'll be on stage. So you. Sleep. It's been really hard to wake me up, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Rarely do people understand that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, yeah, very few. You'll get this done that have have like seen the sleep stages and charts that we showed that we showed to all of our sleep clients. So like it makes sense biologically that it's hard to wake her up at this point. Yeah. Sorry. Those are little side.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, It struck me too, when I heard Michael earlier say that she was two hours in. Cause my. Initial thought was, of course, she's not waking up. She's sleeping so hard because she's in that in that first part of her sleep cycle. And I almost get the sense that maybe she she put stays and nights and so there may be just a bit more of that biological pressure that she's hearing. Things I fall asleep, stay asleep and experience that that sleep consolidation because, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She's been working and jacking with that. You know, she's she's kind of got some jet lag happening with health benefit of any.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Travel. Yeah. No, I mean he. asshole. But he made a mistake. And heard her, he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And most people don't understand.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, he made a mistake. She's not an asshole, you know. Yet I think she made a mistake by going after him. Yeah, but at the same time, I could be really forgiving of her in that moment because her disappointment, as you mentioned, that disappointment is intense. So she's got an asshole either. I think there's there's an opportunity for them both to assume.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Other than 10 and find some greats for each other. Yeah. So no one's an asshole, but both of them made a mistake. Yeah. So, Michael, what are the Internet say? How?

Host: Michael:

The Internet fell squarely into kind of three camps, none of them, none of them called her the hassle or called, I'm sorry, called the spouse trying to wake them up the asshole. There were no assholes here, which was essentially, this is tough, but if you've called someone and then shaking them and they're not waking up, they probably need.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, good. Mm-hmm.

Host: Michael:

Arrest. That said, she's understandably unhappy that she wanted to spend family time and had an expectation, and you failed. So I feel like that's kind of where you're at. Then there is not the asshole and this one. They just purely justify what the what the spouse did in terms of attempting and then letting them sleep. And then there is not the hassle.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

She's the asshole. She's an adult. Set her own asshole. Form, you know, don't put that burden on the spouse. Take responsibility for these things, and then several people quoted the Latin proverb of medice curray, a ipsum which is physician. Heal thyself like if you're that asshole tired, you need that sleep your spouse did you a favor. And all of your patients in favour as.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, yeah and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Depending on a work schedule, they might be not wrong about that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They may not be wrong about that, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna jump in and say that, like being woken up, especially if you're gone a lot and you have a lot of on call schedule. Maybe being woken up by your by your spouse is it's a lot better than like. It just it it's kind. Of Nice to be woken up by a if by a, by a hug or a kiss. You know, as a gentle shake as he talked about waking her up like it sounded like like he does this, he said. I'm I'm assuming it's a he, I apologize that heteronormative assumptions here, but it the spouse in this situation clearly wakes her up fairly often. Yeah, and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She wanted to open. Up by him, she's not an asshole. Wanting to be woken up by him as opposed by someone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it's interesting that you know, they really don't think on her as if she's not taking responsibility for her own waking. I think that there are rituals of connection, even couples and raiding his.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you for using the right word by the. Way I forgot. Thank you. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right, right. This is the gotten term for it. And those rituals can be really meaningful. So if if the ritual as he wakes her, that's not her not taking responsibility that. Or engaging in this couplehood in this way, and by the way, in my massage backs version of this when when I wanted to jump to problem solving but I didn't actually proud of me, I really wanted him to try one more time before the girls went to bed and I saw the girls face and then pajamas and they crawl in next to the in the bed next to mom. And justice kind of like snuggle with her for a couple of minutes, see if she wakes up again to say goodnight and get hugs and kisses. Maybe read a story and then tucks them in. That would be I would love for that to have been attempt number. 2 so you. Missed dinner, Mom, you were really sleepy. Right? But let's try again because I know how important it is for you to see the girls. Here's your last chance. Before they go, go, go for bed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I I think that would have been again we're looking for. We're always looking for hopefully. But and I think Gottman talks about this a lot, I've gotten talks about this a lot this idea of like these these as you mentioned. The virtual connection and he. What a what a. Lovely thing. Have you taken that opportunity to like, like, do that and? And give her. Yes, it wouldn't have been as the time she wanted in the same way, but it would have given her some of that, that some of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I understand him worrying that she's she's not waking, so she quote needs to sleep and I don't disagree with that. But then he shut the door on the decision and didn't revisit. Is there another way that I could do this? And so, you know, hopefully meet her expectation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The opportunity.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't think we're gonna. I'm gonna push back on the Internet. I don't think there's any assholes here. I think both people made mistakes. I'm a little bit more accepting of her mistakes than I am with those mistakes, but I'm not really getting that exercise about either one of their mistakes. I think they they. This is a great learning opportunity for this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, were there other comments from the Internet that were worth taking on?

Host: Michael:

Those are really the three main tracks and I mean there were some that pretty succinctly stated things, but you guys have done a really good job on touching on each of those. So there there's no real. Outliers there, but OK. Yeah. Thank you both for another riveting debate and to the collective conscience of Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And sometimes all decisions are shades of Gray and. Not just black or white. Right, be creative as someone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But most of the time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thought right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Most of the time, our decisions are shades of Gray and not black and white. Gosh, what an opportunity to remember that without partners.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because.

Host: Michael:

Please please follow and share Veritas views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around to the credits for that bonus conversation about whatever happens to be on their mind today.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride: @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan. I know that I'm a very curious spouse who loves to research and learn random things, but I have to say in terms of other curious people I know you are curious sometimes about random things, random data, and love to read interesting research I am. Curious what is one of the research articles that you enjoy? Boy, talking about her, thinking about that, maybe it doesn't have direct bearing on all of the work we do, but it's it's.

Host: Michael:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Kind of interesting or fascinating.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This one, this one I find both fascinating and at times a bit like what an interesting window into the human psyche. And this is about territorial, about being territorial. And they did this research, they set the folks in parking lots and had them time. How long it took the average car to. Pull out of a parking space. And they compared when there was someone obviously waiting versus when there was nobody waiting. So think about a parking space. Is that, especially if it's crowded, they're incredibly valuable when you get them. But when you're done shopping, the actual value of parking space to you at that moment is 0. So even knowing that this territory was was once valuable is now 0 what they found. Is that people took longer to pull out of the spot when someone was waiting. As if they were and that, the researchers hypothesized, and this hypothesis, that then the researchers hypothesized that this was an effort to sort of protect your territory. Like I'm not giving up this thing that was once very valuable to me very easily. And I'm gonna make you wait. And it probably completely unconscious, by the way, don't believe that anyone was just sitting there being an asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No intentionality here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like you. Yeah. No, fuck you. I'm gonna wait. Make you sit there when you wanna get in and do your shopping. It's just more like that. Like, like this is. My space and we're sort of we do a lot of things unconsciously and that there there's hypothesis was that there's an unconscious effort to protect one's territory. And I'm curious if if our listeners want to weigh in on what they think this is the, the, this, this might be about. But I just found this to be sort of. A fascinating window window. Into human behavior. So one of my favorite little bits of research. And when I. Think about it. Also the best.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Humans are complicated, aren't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We like I and The funny thing is, I suspect that most people think ohh, I told waiting. I should be faster. Are. And they I'll be faster, but they're not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm gonna. I'm gonna throw hypothesis out there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Would you please please?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pulling out for me. I I could see myself going slower, but it's often out of caution because of how you're able to see behind you and I worry about someone zipping out of their space really quickly and or a car around the corner. So I may be more cautious pulling out than in just simply because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of my line of. Sight you're being.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're assuming positive intent. I'm not. I'm not. I think I want to say that they controlled for some of the factors, actually, no, because I read this research article.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am assuming positive intent and. Oh, that would make sense.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Probably in the early 1990s, yeah, so. For all we. Know I keep making this shut up well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They did. They didn't have backup.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Cameras. Then they did not have backup cameras back then, so they wouldn't be able to see. And I will say that at some point in the next 24 to 48 hours, I am certain that our intrepid host and I. Forget the word. What? That I'm using the word intrepid correctly, but you know we'll, we'll, we'll. Researched that and tell us because he figured out or he's already done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Article online.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It yeah. Yeah, all.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right article on the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Article yes, if we find out we just posted in the show notes. Absolutely.

Host: Michael:

I haven't found it yet, but I will dig around I'll find it for you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So you're already looking I love. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fantastic. Thank you.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Tune in again next week for a whole other am I an asshole debate?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks everyone for tuning in. Tuning in next week for a whole other and asshole debate.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined as always by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

HI'm doctor Gayle MacBride and joining me today is Doctor Daniel Kessler. Welcome this morning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Welcome, welcome. Welcome both Gayle and Michael. Great to be great to be with you again recording this podcast and finding out who the asshole is and picking apart all the stuff about that. So Michael, what? Do you have for me and my learned colleague?

Host: Michael:

Yeah, hopefully a good one. We'll see anybody who is new and doesn't know what's going on, I'm going to ask. Well, yeah, I tend to think so. But you know, like, if you're really honest, like there, there are definitely some that are more my favorites than others. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All good, Michael. Unlike children, all the children are my favorite. It's the same.

Host: Michael:

Depends on the day. Sometimes. Yeah, anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sorry, take this appeal. Please explain this quirky little show.

Host: Michael:

For anybody new to the whole “am I the asshole” scenario, somebody lived an experience and then they shared that with the Internet and they said, hey Internet objective perspective please who is the hassle here? We trust your judgment and all. That.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because we know how objective the Internet is about things and kind and not at all.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And kind, I mean the not as fuzzy kittens and cute ducklings.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, exactly. Sure. All right.

Host: Michael:

Well, in these posts, if there's any kind of identifiable information we changed that just to kind of make it more discrete. And if you're new, also stick around pass the. But it's we always have an extra conversation about something. We'll. We'll see what it is, but neither Dan nor Gayle have been tipped off or read this or seen it. I think Dan even has stopped reading Emma. asshole subreddits because never know what's going to come up. And today's subject is short and sweet. And I'll also say.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Quite intentionally.

Host: Michael:

It's kind of funny. It ended up being locked by the moderators. So it became. Very contentious. So I'm looking forward to it, Dan. Yeah, I'll.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Host: Michael:

Do with this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not deleted, but locked. So there's this that you cannot comment on anymore.

Host: Michael:

Hmm. Yeah, it it. In fact, the very #1 subject just says this thread is now locked due to an excessive rule violation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, let's hear it. So the poster the responders are being.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Polls.

Host: Michael:

I believe so, yes. They're violating the law anyway. OK, so alright, short and sweet. This is what it is. Am I the asshole for not making extra pancakes for my niece? That's that's the headline.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Feel like on that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Episode I want more. I want more.

Host: Michael:

And I'll give it to you. There's not a lot, but the OP actually does a good job of getting us extra feedback, which we don't always get. But in this case. It just says I woke up at 5:00 AM craving pancakes while on vacation with my in laws. I decided to quickly make myself and my son son since we were the only ones awake. My husband is awake too but doesn't eat pancakes. My sister in law's daughter came downstairs just as my son was finishing up and she started crying because there are no more pancakes for her. I did try to comfort her. But I have really bad morning sickness after I eat and I was starting to feel sick, so I had to take her to her parents, who were still sleeping. Long story short, my sister-in-law was upset. I only made pancakes for myself and my son when there were others in the House who also would need breakfast at some point, she said I was being selfish and I should have known my niece would. Wanted some too and I should have made some extra. Am I the asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. OK, look.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that's a little bit strong here. I mean It is it is a, it is a missed opportunity Dan each of these individuals have missed an opportunity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I OK? I'm not going your to to. I was being a little black. She's not an. asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, there is nothing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

However, I. I can't think of a situation that if I'm with a group of people, especially if there are kiddos in. All, and I'm making breakfast that I think kiddos will love, like the difference between making pancakes for two people and making pancakes for three people is like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, he didn't buy well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Exactly. I mean, all it is is the actual cooking of the pancakes. She make the make the batter. I mean, no, I mean, I'm not going to call her an asshole. But she was thoughtless and I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Play then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Short sighted, short sighted. Better than Dallas. Shortsighted. I I I. I think it's it. It's again. I'm not willing to call an asshole, but this is a this is wrong to not consider the other people involved here, and I'm I'm less happy with your with her than you are. Gayle. Yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mean here's where I can be, maybe a little bit more gentle now. I think she should have made pancake better enough for five. You make it up. It sits aside. Don't even have to make the docking. OK. Like. OK, she could not have necessarily anticipated the niece waking when she did, so to have made more pancakes in advance of morning sickness hitting like. No, no. Don't know and no other grown up has made is up to make these pancakes for this little girl. Share with you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She did say that she gets morning sickness after eating and is aware of it, and I'm I'm really hesitant to ever say anything negative. Pregnant woman in this kind of situation so like, but I'm just, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that she's like, oh, I'll make pancakes for myself and my son, but not the others who are there. You're a shared experience.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Knowing that she's going to get morning sickness not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You. Just, I mean, she knows ahead of time that that, you know, if you're making pancakes that all the kids.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are going to want them. They're going to want them, but you don't know when the kids are. It is potential that you don't know when the kids are going to wake up, are they?

Host: Michael:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Lazy people or? So I think there's potential. There's a there's potential rub here as a pregnant person. And sometimes you want to get food in your system faster than that, so I could see a world in which she sits down. She has a breakfast, it causes some stomach upset, and she is sort of indisposed. So. I'm if you eat.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Instead of and I know I can get. This done where. I think she missed was making the batter enough.

Host: Michael:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But the problem the problem is when there's no good way to solve the shortcutted or not is who makes the pancakes, who converts the batter into pancakes for this little girl because her parents are sleeping. And I think there is such a love there that I think the sister-in-law is being unfair of the. The parent who made the pancake initially.

Host: Michael:

I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I agree, and if she'd made enough batter for for everyone and then felt sick, it's entirely appropriate to go. Hey, I'm really sorry, sweetie. Like, let let me get your mom or your dad and mom or dad and can can can, can cook up these pancakes for you. I'm just not a place to do this. I'm really not feeling well because you know, and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I think that's that's totally fine. And then if if, if, if the little girl's a dad and mom got mad at her for not making the pancakes and she was feeling sick, then there. The assholes for sure. So like, like, there's a little go around here. Except for the kids. They're fine. Kids want pancakes. They're great. They're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, it's on pancakes, I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Get it? You want pancakes? Who does what kid? Does want pancakes but. Right. But I really think that like like OPM is an opportunity to really simple, again making a batch of three or five is no different than making a batch of two. And and and she she missed out on the opportunity while she's doing the like pancakes they they keep I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mean. You sure she could have cooked? A bunch and just had a couple rows.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She could have cooked them up. She could have cooked up a bunch. And had them. But it it's once she was short sighted and didn't do them at the very least it should have been bad and she should have gone to her brother or sister or their spouses, whichever it was. And like, hey, I can't. My niece wants pancakes and I just can't do it cause I'm feeling sick. It's pregnancy and they'll be like, and hopefully they be like I'll do that. Yeah. Sorry. Feeling so sad. Thanks for making up the batter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really appreciate.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That as as I'm sharing this and I have been a pregnant person before, this is maybe where I'm going to cut some grease for the pregnant. OK. Which is pregnant brain. I will give them both my disclosure. I figured out I was pregnant for the second time. What I couldn't do my job. My brain just felt like it was broken. And I don't really acting a thoughtful, planful organized person, and I have. I just have this distinct memory going. I feel like I can't life right now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so, you know, I think what I can give a little grace to OP a little bit more grace is that short sighted. I wish. I wish you would have looked on the road a little bit more as someone who is clearly raising a kiddo. You understand these dynamics and you get it and pregnant brain is so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Real and you make decisions that you wouldn't otherwise make. So again, I can be a little bit more, I think kind. And gentle with. OP then I'm guessing the Internet was, and certainly that sister-in-law. I think the sister-in-law was in the wrong for ripping her a new one. I just like that was not OK. I get that. I'm short sighted. I get that you wake up and your kid. Is distraught, and that's a hard way to wake up. But again, you've got a nauseous sister-in-law here. Be nicer. Come on, you've also.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Been probably been through it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're moving me on this cause I could. Totally. Here's now how I'm envisioning it. Yeah. OP gets up. She's hungry. 5:00 AM. Pregnant. She's like, you know what I want right now. Pancakes. I'm going to make me some asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Pancakes and then her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know little.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

People come out and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Toddles into the room and says Mommy, you're making pancakes and she's like, yes, I'm making pancakes. Would you like some pancakes? She's not even thinking about that other stuff. Cause I'm going to give her your pregnancy, you know, brain thing and then she goes ahead and goes. Ohh, yeah. Make that without even thinking. And that she makes the pancakes. And then the other kid. Walks in even though it's like 530.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It smells so delicious, right? It's like, called her from the bedroom.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh shut, I feel like I'm going to puke right now and they didn't make make it about it. Let me go bring you to your parents.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Uh-huh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You've moved me on this. I'm I'm willing to say I'm willing to say I never said she was an asshole. I would like kind. Of did but.

Host: Michael:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm willing to say maybe this wasn't even short sighted or thoughtless. Maybe this just I could I have, like you get caught on a path and. You're on that. Path. Yeah. And then you don't. Deviate from the path because like you have a plan, even though the path doesn't make any gosh darn sense anymore.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, Josh Johnson.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you keep going down that path and like afterwards, like, what the hell I do that for that? They made no sense at all. But you went down the path because you started down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Like back to the men's area issue. She didn't mean to cause harm. She didn't realize what was happening until she was down that path and went. And now I'm going to look my brains.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Out you have convinced me to move a little bit. Now they will say she apparently responded down the road and I'm interested in the response. It's just that the response is no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I just felt like making it for myself and my kid, and I don't care about my my then I'm angry, then I'm not angry. That's bad word. Then I'm like no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That was no, wait, wait, wait. We're going to hear this. The niece is gluten intolerant and can't eat the kind of pancake does in reality, what really happened?

Host: Michael:

Frustrated.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To our own gluten doughnut episode that Michael will now I keep telling Michael link things to show us. I have no. Idea what Shona?

Host: Michael:

I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You are. It's your real podcast. You're saying all the time. We'll link that in the show notes. I don't.

Host: Michael:

Know what that means? And they do like I always put them in the description and on our web page. If you go there, you can find all the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You do.

Host: Michael:

Trips and at the start of the transcript I always have whatever things you have referenced, so yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Excellent. Thank you so much. So, Michael, what were the comments back and forth? Well, we have sort of rendered our verdict here, haven't we, do you want to take the picture, Gayle?

Host: Michael:

I'll, I'll give you. I'll give. You some of the opiate responses after.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I want more details before. Yeah please.

Host: Michael:

But let me let me. Give you what the Internet said because she only reacted to them. So I guess 1 clarifying thing was somebody said you said morning sickness. Is it safe to assume you're pregnant? And she said yes. Yeah, cuz the other people were speculating that she always gets sick. With morning breakfast. It's like, so weird like that. People jump on weird assumptions and so anyway, like there was a whole thread about. I get sick every morning after I smell food. And anyway it went OK in a weird way. But but the reason ultimately the thread got shut down is not because they were being abusive of the op, but like the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Host: Michael:

Commenters were ripping on each other and, like, really tearing into one another about stuff, so I'll give you a quick taste.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh Gee.

Host: Michael:

So one of the ones that just started out with, you're the asshole. My question is how did you manage to really make pancakes for two people whenever I make them, I can easily feed 6. You measured that shit precise and exact and cut the others out. You're the asshole asshole. Like, that's the kind.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's kind of like making spaghetti, right? When you make spaghetti noodles, you make it for a asshole army, even if you're.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Only feeding two people absolutely. Absolutely because you need leftovers to bring to work the next day or to eat for lunch the next day.

Host: Michael:

That's my thing. So then you also have not the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But.

Host: Michael:

Hassle. I'm shocked. Another mother got upset about a pregnant mother who got up meat pancakes for her and anybody else who was awake at the time. Got too sick with morning sickness before she could help anybody else out. And then ultimately, you know, got sick and tried to do the best to return the child to their parents. That's a reflection of character flaws of yours, not the pregnant mother. And so like then they're, like, kind of jockeying back and forth. And then I think my favorite 1 is this one, which is not the hassle. Fuck all these commenters imposing information on the. Then you knew the others wouldn't want pancakes. How the fuck would she know that? Who only makes pancakes for themselves? What the fuck’s wrong with you, bro? The information OP had at the time was my family's awake and my family is hungry, so she fed them. How do you know the others weren't on the keto diet? Or that the kids parents want would want her to be sugared up on pancakes in the 1st place? How do you know they aren't celiac? How do you know that? Just don't already have breakfast plans and your pancakes might have might ruin those plans. You asshole don't neither OP. She worked with information. She had, my God. Some of these comments are dripping with so much righteousness that people are all slipping all over themselves to add enough new details to justify calling the Opie an asshole. asshole ease up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, I gotta say, that guy sounded like I'm going to assume it's a guy. Sounded like kind of. A dick. However, he's right that. Cox. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's like, yeah, that that all makes sense. Like, it may not have made sense to make pancakes. And the parents might not have one of the pancakes. And. And like like I still. I still would have thrown enough batter for. At least for for four or five. But.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You get cheap and at. Last, if I don't need it today, tomorrow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We so in in our household pancakes are made once or twice a week because my 13 year old eats pancakes just about every single morning for breakfast. And they get made often on Sunday and thrown in the freezer, and she comes downstairs, grabs herself a plate, throws couple of pancakes on a plate, puts them in the microwave and and has and has.

Host: Michael:

A breakfast for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

School. So like pancakes, absolutely. Keep it frozen. No. Maybe not on vacation or something like that, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Again, I go back to cheap. They cost pennies to make.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an. It's a miss. We always say this, it's a missed opportunity. But also like if I want vacation with multiple families, I'm going to one thing I will disagree with that dickish guy who's. Pretty much right when I've been on family vacations with kind of we, we often go on family vacations that are adult children and their partners like we talked about, like, oh, tomorrow morning, we going to do this, that work for everyone. Like like I can't imagine a situation where I haven't had that conversation the day before about what we're going to do for breakfast tomorrow. Especially because. My wife and I tend to wake up earlier than everyone else, so we're like, yeah, we're making pancakes. And I was like, oh, that works for me. Or, you know, whatever. Hey, I'm going to run through. You wake up before we get back. We're walking out to the market. We're going to pick up some. Which we did in our most recent van.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then we got back. We had the end of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Stuff. So I mean no and we do the same thing in our family. If it's pancake day, we know it's pancake day. That's the expectation, but if. You're not up for pancakes? Guess what? The batter sits there for a little bit and then hanky fit me when you get out of. Bed and find your way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's fine, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine.

Host: Michael:

Downstairs. Yeah, and I'll say like with with pancakes, like in our house. Or waffles, which more often make. We've gotten very good. At fine tuning the recipe to fit our needs, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am that one that can like, make make serving for two people, for waffles.

Host: Michael:

Because. Yeah, we don't let our kids super sugared up. So we make a finite. Number of waffles so. That they can enjoy them in that moment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To be fair, the number of waffles is always finite.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is true here, I think. What Michael means is the number of waffles that we'll get consumed by teenage boy.

Host: Michael:

Totally fair.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Always equals the number of waffles you've made, and so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is absolutely accurate. That is 100% accurate.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Waffles. They will eat all of the waffles.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So it's the finite number that more or less matches the number of waffles that the parents of said teenage boys believe that it's appropriate them to eat because you are absolutely right. The Teenage boys ability to eat waffles is is much.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like a space for like gas. Like the gas fills whatever space is given.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It just feels right. So yes, yes. Sometimes I don't make a finite number of waffles just so that we just don't have a God ton of waffles. And then, you know, we don't have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. That's fair.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dinner because we've eaten waffles.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I hereby rescind my smart alecky comment to Michael about there being always a finite number of waffles. I my apologies.

Host: Michael:

Accept your apology.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Being being the asshole in this situation.

Host: Michael:

Let me let me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again.

Host: Michael:

Read you one other comment really quick, which is you're the asshole. Short answer, yes, you are. You didn't have morning sickness while making the batter. You could have made enough for everybody and only think yourself is selfish. Being a mother. If your child woke up early and went downstairs to be told.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

These.

Host: Michael:

Too bad I didn't make any for you and set the child back with no breakfast. And woke you up. You'd be shitty also, especially when traveling on vacation with your family. That was just straight up rude. And then that kind of is a collective of responses that are not now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to respectfully disagree with that. I I I think at worst she was short sighted. Maybe thoughtless. If you wanna go that far. But I'm just not willing to call her an asshole for the situation. I don't think she went well. My niece is like she'd be an asshole. Requires that we talked about men's right. Intent like if if, if if she was like well, my niece is going to come down but you know, fuck her and her parents. I'm making waffles for just me and my kid like. Yeah. Then you're an asshole. But that's not at all what happened. She at at the very worst she was thoughtless and more likely shortsighted or caught up in the moment or or or I at 5:00 AM. I wouldn't. I wouldn't necessarily think about how going to feed. Everybody, especially if pregnant and craving something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And if it weren't? For the morning sickness, it seems like she would have made another batch of pancakes. Yeah, you know, I. I think I think to our own kids when they were little or even now when they pop up in front of my my respective sister in laws and if my sister in laws are feeding their kids, my kids are going to get fed. Now, it wasn't a forethought, but it's certainly a like absolutely, you know, here have some. Yeah. And I think this mother would have done the same thing had she not had the morning sickness. This is a complicating factor. She doesn't really have control over even if she knows it's kind of going to happen that same way each time. But but we can't give her an asshole for that. That's just that's pregnancy. It just sucks. That's how.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right, maybe, but I'm. I'm not. I'm not calling her an asshole. Even in, like, in in all but the worst case made-up scenario, I just can't find a place to call her an asshole. No. I don't even think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She talks. It's more mild than that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think it it really depends on what her thinking was when she made the pancakes. In my world, whether or not she sucks a little bit here, because maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, the problem is the confound is the pregnancy. She might not have been thinking and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Alright, there I've never you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Again, it's not because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What I see you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We get over that hurdle when pregnant. I have some, I have some real empathy for that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I have to yield to your, to your greater judgment experience in this you have had two children and I have like carried 0 because.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's not the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Way that's not the way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That works. That's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not the way that Despite that Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny to be the movie.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, my number, my number, my number of personal pregnancies is is 0. So I don't know what it's like and I certainly yield to you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Whatever that means.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Much greater judgment, knowledge, experience on such things having been a pregnant person yourself.

Host: Michael:

I'm surprised to hear either of you say the rest of the family should assumed positive intent, because it seems like something as well, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's fair. Thank you for bringing us back around like I would have liked the family to assume positive intent. Thank you, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, that's fair. Yeah. I think again, we, we talked about this so often, it almost becomes meme level stuff, but like assume positive intent and and don't get all wrapped around the axle about shit with your family that that, that that you love they didn't they didn't. If they really are a total asshole you probably shouldn't be hanging out with them anyway. So the fact that you're with them means you don't think they're an asshole. So in the moment when you get annoyed, remember that they either made a mistake or you're misinterpreting or whatever, and try to give them some grace. I apologize for getting all that's on all lexury, but it's something we talk about a lot with people. No, we talked about that a lot with couples like. Yeah, I understand you're you're mad. But like, let's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not an accurate yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Try to find that place where you understand. Each other this is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Where an absolute rift can begin and a family. So yeah, I would hate for this to be the start of the hill, that they die on and then ruin their relationship. It's not worth. But then this will be consoled. Pancakes will get made. It will be fine. I really think this this sister-in-law just is unhappy about being woken up this this early. It's on a particular, you know, on a vacation day, right? I'm sure she was looking forward to sleeping in and then, you know, bombed that that her daughter is, you know, in tears but and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's. Sure, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's a hard way to wake up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'll give you that, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It it, it is but. You know what? No one's dying here from this. No one's you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not with bleeding. You're broken here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No one's no one's dying from being upset about pancakes. No one's dying from ever wake up to make pancakes. No one's no one's dying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Opportunity to teach this young child the valuable lesson of self soothing after disappointment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bring it back to that. That's the whole another episode there too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just an episode flipping episode. It is, but I think it goes back to the sloppy episode.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Link to that up link to the Slurpee episode in the show notes. I do that just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Earlier you can find little podcasts all over the shit about not being a real podcast. We have 33.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Great work tonight.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Episodes we got.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sacked. We got back episodes. We've been referred to now, so we haven't listened to them all. Please do, like, subscribe, share.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know that's great. I just like I just like giving, giving Michael more work to do. OK. Link link to the sleepy episode in the. Show notes.

Host: Michael:

And you know, I mean not to put too fine a point on it, but we actually have 37 episodes. So yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

O33 that are aired and online.

Host: Michael:

Ohh, by the time 37 gets out there it'll be 37. But I hear your point. Yeah. OK. Am I the asshole for correcting? Outback all right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Stick around till the I'm going to take over. Now, stick around until after the credits to listen to the bonus conversation like follow and share.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And I just, I want to add the like I. Just imagine this. Is an area where the family is like everything was going so well until the pancake gets. In in 2024.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Thank you getting to the. 2024.

Host: Michael:

I love it. Alright. See you on the other side of the credits for the bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So in the last episode, link in the show notes. Talk about we talked about gifts and I mentioned after the episode was over that there was some. I read some recent research. I'm going to have to find it and give it to Michael so he can again link in the show notes that experience gifts are more appreciated. This is my understanding from the research experience. Experiential gifts are more appreciated than things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I expressed a little bit of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Surprised by that? Yeah. And. And that they when they went back, my recollection, recollection of this is that when they went back later on and that the experience was over. But the thing still existed in the person's possession, they still value the experience. Gifts greater than the thing. Gifts. So I'm wondering. Yeah. What your thoughts on this and if you have any personal experience with the thing. Versus an experienced gift that was like, Oh yeah, I totally get her. Before we find the actual article and find out whether I'm remembering it correctly, which, by the way, 5050.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

At best, sure I. I wouldn't have necessarily told you that if you hadn't shared the research with me. Yeah, to the best of. Your understanding of. The research, but there's some piece of me that I think intuited this. We have started shifting to to experience gifts for our own family. And I know that, as I recall, experienced gifts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's my understanding recollection.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can recall the gift and the people who are with me better than the thing gift. I mean, there are a few thing gifts that I. Received that really stand out and I can tell you exactly. You know the circumstances and the holiday or the reason for the gift and you know and there's there's that kind of long appreciated kind of memories associated with it but the experience gifts because I think they are generally so different as opposed to you know this this thing this piece of jewelry. So this book or this this board game even like those things don't hold in my memory quite as solidly as the time we did this thing now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, go ahead.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Please no. I was going to say like. We were talking. About gifts last time and it struck me. It's just it's kind of funny, Michael. My mother, she was always really hard to buy gifts for, so we had we had a formula for her, cuz talk about returning gift she would. She didn't want. It if it wasn't food, jewelry or a plant. Weird combination, right? But you could always give her a successful gift of his food. Jewelry about you. Give her a piece of clothing she didn't want. It would go back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Anyway, so that then you asked about the experience and we never give experiences that might have been an interesting take if we had tried to kick grandma to do like the ice fly thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It might have been and. And one of. The. One of the greatest things about working with Michael as our podcast host is that he has already found the article and sent it to us in a chat. So we'll certainly be posted in the show notes, and apparently I remembered it correctly because they looked at it while you were talking. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Excellent. Maybe I was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Buying you time. Isn't that wonderful? I think it's really cool. And I do think about, like, some of the gifts I've gotten that experience gifts my, my, my wife gave me a a skydiving experience, and I made the foolish mistake of jumping out of a perfectly good plane. And it lasted, you know, the whole thing lasts. What, like a couple of minutes? Went up. That's coming down. I still remember that. Really, with great. Never doing that again. By the way, that was that was definitely A1 and done. But like that was a like that I think is a like a more memorable gift than some of the other gifts I've gotten. So like I'm I'm actually down with that and we we have certainly we as a family go out of our way to try and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Try to find some experiential gifts that I think are really wonderful so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we have really moved for that in our household as well and we'll do some things that you can open. But you know we've tried to find a really new experience. As the sort. Of the primary gift and that's gone. Really well and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Those experiential gifts just to cause this has come up before somewhere, and I don't remember exactly where. Like those don't necessarily cost a lot of money. Like you can give an experience gift that is like time with your kids at a museum. That's not that's not costly or free time. Apart, I'm doing this thing. You know that these experiential gifts don't necessarily have to like. It's not necessarily like going to Disney World like, sure, the experiential gift can be just a day out. Doing something special so.

Host: Michael:

I love that idea. Can I add something really quick? I'm I'm remembering.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're you're the host, Michael, you have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To do whatever you.

Host: Michael:

Want right now, but I'm not the person people TuneIn for. So I'm thinking of like how kids would give parents coupon books, right, like a free hug and whatever. And it's funny. Like, those are experiential things. And it took a while to kind of come back around to returning that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Think.

Host: Michael:

Gave her. It's kind of fun. I mean, I agree. I like the experiential gifts. I mean, not only because you're giving them a new experience, a new opportunity to do something, but often you're also involved in that experience. And so then it's a a shared memory.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Wonderful. Exactly. I agree. He we're following on a warm and we're we're finishing on a warm and fuzzy note instead of Sun being an asshole. Wonderful.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for running.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Host: Michael:

Thanks everyone for tuning in. Tuning in next week for a whole other and asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In the episode, Gayle and Dan referenced:


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined as always by our dynamic duo psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and this morning I am joined by my business partner, my friend and an all around great guy Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Phillies. Sure I no, I appreciate that. That's kind of you that really is nice and I and it's always looking forward to hearing the Internet conundrum that our host brings to us this week and picking that apart with you today Doctor MacBride. So Michael, without further ado, what do you got for us?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Welcome.

Host: Michael:

Sure. Well, before we get to that welcome both of you and three of the newbies who have never heard one of these before or don't know what “am I the asshole” is, the short version is someone's posted this scenario and they're asking for advice. Who is the asshole here? And hopefully that's what will help determine. And if you're new, stick around. Past the credits when we have some kind of bonus conversation, who knows. What that will be, not me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not us. Not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Us. Yes, we're going to need to feel kind of inspired today. We'll come up with something interesting. Yeah. And if we don't, please write us and ask us a question because we can always use that information or that question for a bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Love those mail bag questions. Yeah, a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Michael, what do you got?

Host: Michael:

All right, this is what I got today for you. Am I the asshole for returning my homemade or my wife's homemade birthday gift and telling her I don't want it? Then going out and buying what I actually wanted, probably returning or rejecting. He said returning, but yeah, it's more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. You don't like her.

Host: Michael:

Clear in the description. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Who made guess? I don't understand. OK, you're going to have to sell that, right? This does not sound that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh. That's weird. I like. I like that question returning or rejecting because you, you give back only give that's rejection. But let's hear the story because it might sometimes these twist at us you know.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So this one, it says this is an ongoing issue. My wife makes less money than me and it's the type of person who prefers to make her own gifts for. The issue is she will do this even if the person doesn't want it. I'll use myself an example for the past few years she has made me a gift or every single time she has given a gift. It was one that she has made. No matter what I asked for, I get a homemade gift. It doesn't matter if it's cheap or not. Last Christmas I asked for a few things and got a homemade scarf I always get. 1st, I always get her stuff that she asks for, but I always get the homemade things regardless of what I've asked for. My birthday was yesterday and I asked her to get me a book. It was only $25 and I sent her the link because it was a specific addition that I want. And I opened the gift and she had made me homemade bookmarks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's lovely. Yeah. OK, continue. Alright.

Host: Michael:

I must have made a face because she asked me what was wrong. I told her. It's really not what I wanted. I really wanted the. Book. I talked to her a bunch of times, and so I actually handed it back to her and then went out and bought the book. We had a big fight when I got back, she claims I'm being an ungrateful jerk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You are. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm just going to move it. Pronouncement to the beginning, I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Totally. Yeah, no, by by, by the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't really see it as. A way of bone then?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Buy the asshole book and use the bookmark idiot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Buy the asshole truck at this point, even if you are one or two years in and you've gone through a couple of gift cycles, you know that she prefers to make a gift asking for a book that has been published and produced by somebody else is not on her list of things that she wants to give, and you don't get to tell other people what to give you. You can make a list. You can make a request. That you can't force that a gift is given from the person. And it is something that you receive, right? I don't like it. Feels kind of icky that he's got this list and she's not asking for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The list so a I agree with you. Yeah. However, let me throw in a little devil's advocacy here. When buying a gift. Yeah, we we again, we've talked about the golden rule. Platinum rule. We don't wanna follow the golden rule. Do unto others as we want them to do. Us, we want to follow the platinum rule, do unto others as they want done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For them, I love it that the twist, I think that's the end of the conversation here, right, is the OP's an asshole for returning.

Host: Michael:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes, we're. We're we're done with that. Yes, he's an apple. Like we're done with that one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I have a problem that if you used to do the same thing again and again and expecting different results, wife wants to make him something. You know what? Look, you're just going to get a whole new gift, dude. That's that's what this is. And we could move on to the life. And the wife clearly is really struggling with that platinum platinum rule, which is doing to others as they would have filled on to them. I would like to see that she perhaps would make a small gift and purchase something from her husband list that he really, really wants a book that he's really looking forward to and some bookmarks to go. With yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean that would have been. This is again, now we we we want to kind of dive deep into this. I mean there may be all sorts of issues with her and money. And how do I feel about money and do I feel about spending money when it's? When, like if he's making a lot more than her, which I think there was implied in the beginning there that, yeah, Michael's nodding that he made so much makes much more than her maybe she feels like she's using his money to buy his gift because it's more his money. And I get all that. I still kind of want her to like, if it's an inexpensive gift. And this is what he wants and asked for, maybe he doesn't feel comfortable buying it for himself. Even though it's mostly it's money because it's a superfluous thing, but it it is a gift. He might really appreciate it. Like I. Think it's like she's not like she's not. asshole. And he?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But, but there's an opportunity here to say this is what my partner really wants. We can afford it together, assuming we can. We're giving we like to make up things about these stories. We're going to assume that he can like it seems quite reasonable for her to to buy that book and give it to him, along with a handmade bookmark to use with it. What a lovely gift that is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I yeah, I just, I agree, I think I think there's a missed opportunity here for this couple. They really don't seem to have really sought out this conversation between the two of them about purchased gifts versus handmade gifts and the importance of that. You know there's actually reminds me of the John and Julie Gottman conversation. So shadow.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like standard, your standard got minced out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We got like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

10 minutes into this one before we shouted out the God. Maybe, maybe 5.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe five? Yeah, it didn't. It didn't take long. You know, they have this conversation about how John wants to buy a cabin. I think it's John wants to buy a cabin and Julie doesn't. Or the other way around. And it was something that they really struggled about for years. And they talked about how they deepened the conversation and what this kind of proper extra second property really meant to the other. And what the hangups were for the first part of the couple, and explored how their individual histories brought them to their respective opinions, and neither were wrong. They were just different. And I think this is where that couple is really experiencing a myth, because I suspect neither of them is wrong. But they are really missing each other in this conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And this comes up so often when we're doing couples therapy with people that we, we judge our partners when our when we and our partner are different on something, we tend to judge those differences as I was wondering if there's a catch. Up here for those listening on Spotify, Doctor MacBride has just picked the cat up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Climbing all around.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Off of her nest.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They came in to join me and then got another body. Going to let one of them out. Please continue that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For Kessler to continue, yeah, as if there was no cat in the podcast. No. I think where we where we have differences, we tend to get, we tend to personalize those differences, get frustrated with the differences. And and like and see our partner viewing the world differently as somehow a an insult to us and we want to fight back and explain. Why we're right? And why they're wrong and and so often we just need to step back and say this is a difference. I don't necessarily get it, but it's a difference. She really wants to give a handmade gift. It's important to her. But it's for money reasons. Or just because she finds it's a personally meaningful gift, accept it. He would like a gift that's not personal. He would. He's with a book. Or it OK, if you can swing it. Do that. If we wanna. We wanna recognize that there's a difference, not a right or wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I think that's really well fed. Thank.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You and giving the bookmark back to her is addiction.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's too bad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That was such a different move.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She going to do like, take the receipt. And walk into Kohl's. And I'm sorry didn't fit my husband like that. Doesn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like. Work. What about what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If that's like, that's like, fuck you level, that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely slap in the face. I am so disappointed.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And if you're going to buy the book anyway, you're going to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One more this is true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you, honey, for this book. I really thank you so much for this bookmark. Look, I'm using it in. My. Book that I love, that I wanted to buy for myself. I don't, you know. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of missed opportunities here. But like, like, she made a mistake and he was an asshole. Yeah. That's is that our we we have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The same judgment, this is a this is a really tight one because yeah, she made a mistake. She is not listening to him and he. Has gotten so frustrated he's let his emotions get in the way and he did something that was really hurtful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really, really hurtful. Really. All right, Michael, what does the Internet have to say about this?

Host: Michael:

This was one. Where I read the description of it, you know the headline and I was like this seems so obvious that he is an asshole and then he read the description thinking like you like ohh. There'll be some detail that like expounds on. And I'm like, oh, my God, he's just. a dick like what the hell?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then I.

Host: Michael:

Read the Internet judgment and everyone is like you're not the asshole. Your wife is what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh damn, we've done it. Again, we've disagreed with the Internet. Well done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The wife is, to be clear, the wife is is, it's. Not completely correct you. Know you, you really should get someone to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That is beautiful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Get this meaning? For them. But I am not calling. Her an asshole. Not at all. What maybe the can the Internet convince us, Michael, you always. You usually have some like choice comments for us.

Host: Michael:

I don't think they're going to change your mind because most of them were like. What are you supposed to be great with?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I wish our listeners could see Michael Space right now.

Host: Michael:

They they're they're most of the responses are what are you supposed to be grateful for? Thank you, darling, for ignoring my wishes. Thank you, sweetie, for not caring about me at all. But being manipulated enough to make me make it my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fault like. Yeah, it is. No. All of them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, no, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But they still. Appear here, mom. They hey, I really am not. My wishes are not feeling heard here, right? That they have had that conversation. So I'm a little. I think they're in town. I'm at 2 in agreement with that last piece that come into bed. Just just because he's not feeling heard. He doesn't have the right to act what he did. But I get it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He's not feeling hurt. No, and I'm. I'm. I'm with the Internet on that. But but no, I mean, she's at the at the worst. We can call her tone deaf at the. Worst. But we can't call her.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

An asshole? I just. I'm not willing to do. That she hand made. A gift for her husband who? She presumably loves and wants to do something nice for. Yeah. What a what? A much more meaningful thing than you know. I mean, I can go to go to like, like, you know, Amazon and click a couple of buttons and have the book delivered it. It might take me under 15 seconds. If I do it right. Is that going to my house? Like, that's not a that's a much less meaningful gift than something that. I that that, that, that she. Hand made. Take the take the. Bookmark and cherish it by the. Look yourself so easy.

Host: Michael:

I'll say the very kindest comment that I could find was gifting can be complicated. My guess is that she feels like if she orders you exactly what you asked for, you'll know she didn't put any thought into it. It's just you buying it for yourself with an extra step she wants to do this. She wants this to mean something to you. She's like, but then it says like. She's like a crow bringing you trinkets, which. I think it like kind. Of deviates from the message they're going with. There, but then finishes strong with. I would just order the book yourself, use the bookmarks that she gave you. Cherish the gift she gave you. Like you guys said. But I think that question about gifting being really complicated. I know I've fallen into that trap where somebody has asked for something, you know, and it seems like a very practical thing. And. That doesn't feel like a fun gift to give somebody, so I fall into a trap of sometimes I'll I'll get that gift, but then I'll give them something else to complement it. Or, you know, that is more fun. And anyway, I do think there's lots of complications with gift giving that are kind of interesting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Agree. And I think it goes to what we were saying earlier where we really think that the wife here has a bit of a mess. I often talk with folks in my office about, you know, the sort of a form of gift. Giving and if we really break this down, I often will follow the line of stereotypes. And here's the stereotype, she says to he you never bring me flowers anymore. I want some flowers. And so he goes, huh? I'll bring her flowers. And so the next day after work, she gets a beautiful bouquet of flowers and he brings them home. And she looks at him and goes well. You only brought me flowers. So they told you I wanted flowers? Yes. Yes, that's exactly what happened. Right. And I would love for you to say thank you for the flowers that you have just received because he loves you. He hurts you. And he brought the flowers. You. Asked. Now it would. Be great if the and in that story is and he brought them on his own, but let's just start with appreciating. That he heard the request and he fulfilled the request exactly as you asked. That can be enough. It doesn't have to also be spontaneous. This is where I think we get caught in that kind of long, calm idea. Sometimes our partners just love us enough to do exactly what we've asked.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And there's something else here. Like we, our partner is going to disappoint us sometimes and we talk about this with couples. We work with that and it's unfortunate because the more ROM Coms, we watch, the more we recognize that partners never discipline. There's I got a site to find this research article. There's some research article that said the more ROM Coms you want. The less satisfied you are with your relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yet to be fair though, and ROM Coms, typically the partner disappoints pretty early on. That's after. One, but then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, but then they come back at the. End and they do this wonder thing that you're amazing, terrific. And they fall in love with each other and everything is damn perfect. And our partners, no matter how well they know us, they're going to disappoint us. We're going to disappoint our partners. They're going to disappoint us.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What's?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is just reality of relationships and an important part of relationship is to yes, be disappointed and handle that disappointment with grace. Recognize that this is an important thing for her to do. For me, it missed in the case of this. This gift, but in any time, I mean I I'm. I'm I'm certain that I never disappoint my wife. Of course. No, no but but. But I mean I OK that's so not true we we disappoint our partners from time to time to disappoint us and having a reasonable expectation about about and I just I'm going to throw a shout out here to Shankar but. Open there. From whose name I just pronounced incorrectly. There's a terrific hidden brain episode on exactly this, and I will share that with Michael so you can put in the show. About how important it is to like, accept that sometimes our partners grow up and they don't their needs, they don't meet our expectations, they fail us, and that doesn't make a marriage bad and accepting that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, it's just two humans existing together or multiple humans existing together and trying to build the life together. And that means accepting laws.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, because there will.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Be applause appointments. Yeah, somebody makes you happy all the time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So he, yeah. He can be and back to our original story. Here he can be disappointed. He should do his best to be like thank you so much. Without lying. Yeah. You know, I wanted a book, but I really appreciate this book. Mark. I'm going to buy that book. OK, great. You know, it's on perfect moment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Or even better. Wow. These bookmarks are beautiful. They'll look perfect in that book that I really wanted. Now that you've given me my birthday gift, I know I can go ahead and order that book. I've been really looking forward to. I know. I'm unwrap that and the duplicate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, alright.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, well, sorry. Thanks. Thanks for this one. I know it was a little bit open and shut, but I honestly I wanted. I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy because I read it and I was like, I missed something here and then. Oh, sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What's your turn now?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

On Michael, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Host: Michael:

Totally fair. Alright. Well, on that note, thank you both for another gripping debate and to glimpse of the collective conscious and the Internet forum. Remember, morality is often Shades of Grey and not just black or.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

White guys, we are just all a bunch of humans interacting with other humans. None of us is going to get it right all of the time. Each other great, yes. Yeah. Agreed.

Host: Michael:

Please follow and share her test views. Any of the podcast platforms, the neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around to the credits for those conversation about, I don't know, see how other. Said the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride: @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, I got it. Are you ready? Along the lines of gifting, since we've been talking about gifting today, Dan, I wonder if you can think of a really treasured. Gift you've been given, but it was rifted and you knew it was thrifted came to your second hand, I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I can't think of one, but I have to say I could care less where the where the, the provenance of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, so let's. Take the conversation in that direction. What is important to you, or would you be willing to to give the gift that you bought at a?

Host: Michael:

Like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Rejected.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Second hand store.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh sure. I mean we gifted thrifted. I mean, here's what I like is the gift something that that that India. Jewel has thought about and is giving me because they care about me or because. They care about. What I might like have they gotten?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What are you talking about? Like a a holder for like a wine bottle that maybe says Ohio on it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Did I don't did do we give that to you or did you give that to us? What I think it was Michelle. She's like here from.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now you give it to us.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohio probably, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Back with she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Getting the show though it was great and I think you gave it to me with the idea of this was this is. The gifted I think you received it for some reason, but what the fuck is this? I like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, I I have a vague. Recollection. It. But here's the thing about that. Like to me, if a person says I'm giving this gift, this is perfect for you and you find it at a thrift store or you're giving it and go, Oh my gosh, this be perfect. This other person, or were you handmade it or whatever it is is that is that gift something that you have done, like, personally. In a in. A in a meaningful way, all that matters to me with a gift is is does that. Is that gift have meaning, you know? Does it does it is it is, it is, it is it valued as something that that, that that shows the connect. Between me and the gift gift giver, that's all that matters.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And so, I mean, it doesn't matter what the price tag was or if there was one, it was the price tag was simply time. You know, I think gifts are given from the heart and they show it's an opportunity for connection which I think is one reason that gifts can make people feel so loved now that they are receiving and getting to open a material thing. But hey, you thought about me. I love this phrase that my graduate professor used to use when he was talking about clients and how they told you in their mind that they there's a representation of you in their mind after you have interacted with them and they imagine how you might act or react or advise them even if you're no longer working together. You know, so he he he would identify sometimes as objects, especially if you're doing kid work objects that you transition objects that you might give a client to help you. Then hold them have allow them to hold you in their mind and move that work forward.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think that's true of lots of human relationships where a gift that has been given allows the recipients to hold that person in their mind and think about them and hopefully kind and fond ways as they use that gift.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely, absolutely. I love that. I think we've done enough on this. I don't, I thought, but I'm not going to believe that save this for another time, we. Talk about gift.

Host: Michael:

Giving again, I'm sure it will come up. It does seem like one of those things that is. Prone to be problematic at times for sure. So yeah, but thanks everyone for tuning in TuneIn again next week for a whole other Am I an asshole? Debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Here's a link to the handout referenced about the Gottman's.

Also, here's a drawing of something the host drew based on something Dan said.


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host Mike MacBride. I am joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I am here with my co-therapist I guess and business partner Dr. Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yes, we are business partners at Veritas Psychology Partners, where we have a private practice serving 42 states around the country.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. The real to be here with you, Dan. What you don't know is I actually have spent a great deal of the morning with your voice in my ear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To hear that I was getting caught up on my listening, I had followed a few a little behind and listening to the episodes and was getting caught up. I have to tell you, you know, we do these and they're interesting discussions and really stimulating us when we say this kind of the favorite part of our week and it really, truly is. But I have to say and really truly enjoyed listening to them. Back and I think I've just gotten past that whole. Hear your own voice and how odd it sounds. Yeah. And I just enjoy the content and it again. I think I've said this before. It amuses me way more than it probably should. So I spent the morning listening to, like, two or three episodes are enjoying binging these relatively short and informative little episode.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

We hope so and this week again, Michael, you brought us an Internet quandary for us to try to puzzle together from a psychological perspective. Yeah, extra syllables there. They're intentional.

Host: Michael:

First of all. Welcome both of you. I mean the extra syllables. That's what people are paying for. So I get it right. Pray of the newbies out there if you don't know what am I the asshole is. In short, someone has posted a scenario online and asked readers who's the asshole here and that's what Diane or Kyle are going to help us determine when there is identifiable information in the post. We've changed those to be a little more discreet. And if you're new, you should always. You should also know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Works every time.

Host: Michael:

Stick around through the credits. We always have some kind of bonus conversation. Sometimes a mail bag thing. Sometimes it's just something else that's on our mind. So. But neither Dan nor Gayle know or have read this ahead of time. So. So let's go. This week is am I the asshole? Well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like, no, I cannot not hear “let’s go” without thinking of “sko” from Reservation Dogs. That is such a well done show. And the kids go: sko. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, and it was one of our favorites, for sure. Alright. The topic today is. Am I the asshole for walking out and my boyfriend's public proposal after I explicitly asked for a private one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

No. OK route.

Host: Michael:

Well, just like that. Yeah, I yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Declared the forecast of the of the entire series.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

I mean, there’s more to it, I'm certain, but I have this this like my thought about just before even hearing more a public proposal. Is like you see pros at ball games or the Taylor Swift concert. Whatever you ask publicly when you're 100% certain beyond any doubt of what the answer is going to be and that it's desired to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

At least you. May not be 100% certain it's desired, but you has to know it's going to be a yes. And you has to be pretty damn sure that whoever it is going to be OK with public.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like, well, we're going to hear more, but it's like they talked about it in advance. I'm guessing the proposed their was certain of the maybe got something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Huh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But we should we?

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Well, perhaps you should hear. Perhaps you should hear the story.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think, why don't you get us the details?

Host: Michael:

OK, here's what you got. So it's male female relationship. If that ends up factoring into your conversations. So and they're essentially 30 have been together for three years. We've discussed marriage and I've always been clear that I prefer intimate moments over grand gestures that the poster is the female. Got him. Public attention makes me uncomfortable. Last weekend, boyfriend took me to a fancy restaurant. Midway through dinner, he stands up clinks his glass and suddenly all eyes are on us. He starts giving a heartfelt speech and then gets down on one knee to propose. I was in shock and felt my face burning with embarrassment. I quietly asked him to please stand up. And talked privately, but he kept insisting. Overwhelmed, I whispered. I'm sorry, and I left the restaurant. Later. He called me furious, saying I humiliated him and that I should have just gone along with it. Now her friends and family are divided, some saying I overreact. That others understand my discomfort. I feel guilty, but also upset. They disregarded my feelings. Who's the asshole here? This.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

This so cringe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is so cringe.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

This. So cringe again, like not that we can. We can't read our partner's mind, but in this case, there's no mind reading necessary. She was really clear about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. I'm going to invite you, Dan, to talk about the platinum rule. I think the Platinum rule applies here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

I think that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah, the golden rule. We're all familiar doing to others, as you would have them doing to you is an absolutely shitty rule for prefer relationships. Like so many relationships get ruined by people who follow the golden rule. I don't like the same thing my wife does, and vice versa. If we follow the golden rule, it would be awful. You should follow the platinum rule now, Gayle, to find you. You want to? You want to run with this now? I've. Talked enough? Sure the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Platinum rule as set forth by Doctor Daniel Kessler. I don't know if anybody else has ever talked.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Oh wait, I stole it from someone. I told the fellow from. No, no, it's mine. It's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Did you? Oh, I totally thought though I usually. Not because it's so that the platinum rule is do on to others as they would have you do on to them or something to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yes, do unto others do unto others as they want done unto them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Their. There you go. And that really is about knowing your partner, what their preferences are and doing it the way that they want it because that's the way they want it, even if it's different than the way you would want it across the relationship spectrum, whether that be sexual activity, public displays of affection.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Uhm. Like, how do you like your coffee? Y'all? Honey, your partner's coffee the way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Right. Oh yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You want it make it the way. They want don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Complete.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Give them the proposal you want. Give them the proposal they want.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

And I will say there would be people who would be overjoyed at this proposal to have the whole restaurant looking at them to have everyone seeing the love in their partners. Eyes you have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. And they say yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Have the to have them cheer. Yes. Oh yay and cheer and to have the whole place turned to them. They're people who would.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Adore that this not that person.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

This not that person.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And she made it really clear. And I think as an intimate partner, the boyfriend is absolutely aware of that and then turns it around and says, hey, not cool. You should have gone with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It like no. I expected you to go through a situation. And I would like to disregard your feelings and preferences. And I want you to just do it my way. That is not a strong start to a marital relationship, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler

No, it's really unfortunate. It's and it, I will say like like like I almost expect this to show up like in some like, down the road. Am I the asshole for for or am I overreacting for which is another discussion off. Am I overreacting? Am I overreacting for breaking up with my boyfriend for doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I could see.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, that's a huge mess.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

That coming up in that situation, this person the boyfriend is utterly, utterly failed to recognize. What her needs were in this situation and I get it, he's caught up in wanting to show everyone how much he loves her. He comes from it. It doesn't come from a belligerent or mean place. I don't think. And I'm a see exam, I'm I'm assuming positive intent and I'm assuming that he means is to come from a good place of caring and love and wanting to tell the whole world.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right soon possibly done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

How much he. Loves her and at the same time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Oh, it's so incredible.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A bad thing out of a ROM com, right? This how it starts. We introduced the problem is tone deaf boyfriend and this. Girl.

Host: Michael:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Runs out and yeah, no, this this not good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

No, it's not. It's not and again, as you mentioned ROM Coms like have a conversation. We say we almost like almost every episode. Like the ROM, com is ruined by a good, honest conversation, you know 10 minutes in. But in this case they had the good contest conversation, so I guess I have to adapt, right? What I often say about that which. A good, honest conversation 10 minutes and that the both you. Listen to. Yeah, you know, that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A little like your moment? Yes. And we can really get into some troubled waters if we assume, especially in this case, this woman. No. Then yes, we're not playing games.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And please don't. I mean if if if you think, Oh my gosh, I'm going to just say coily and then get someone to do something. No, that doesn't help anybody. Be clear with your. No, be unequivocal and your no. And if your partner's given. And you would know it's a no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Right, right. I get.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And if it depends later. That you should have known that I know was a yes. Then no like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

You know that that that's just a that's just a scream for better communication, right? But I mean, this, I am. I am. I just I am. I just as I see this in my eye even as Michael described it I like it became painful in my in my head to watch both of them his pain and having her leave in the midst of this. The moment that he thought was going to be amazing, wonder. People and her pain and having him stand up and get everyone's attention drawn to her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Imagined being in that restaurant at, you know, having gone to dinner with my family or my husband, you know, he and I are sitting there and you hear the tank of the glass, you know what's coming. The second that glass tanks, you know what's coming and then to watch her look uncomfortable and warm and turn red, I think my heart would just be in my toes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Someone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or my stomach would be my toes at that point, like it would just be painful to watch, painful to watch her leave and just. And I think you your heart would block that couple at this point and then certainly sitting here listening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

It will be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can imagine that scene. My heart is out to them. Absolutely. Voice failed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Oh yeah, in my mind's eye. In my mind's eye, he reaches into his back pocket, takes out his wallet, slowly shuffles out some bills, lays him on the table, and walks out dejectedly as everyone watches them like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're stimming. You don't carry cash anymore. Wow, Jasper, for the wait staff to come over so he could buy the credit card. But the wait staff can't get there fast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Again, it's theme from the movie. In my head, it's a scene from a movie from the 70s or 80s. It's not a scene from. A current movie? Well, because.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Today, we would feel like we would do better, but apparently not. I'm sorry for the couple, but no, he was absolutely the wrong. I don't want to call.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah. Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Him an asshole, but he certainly sucked. Here this was this was an absolute mess because he and I'm sorry, I'm jumping the gun. We haven't even. Heard. What you thought or any clarification? But he sucks. He knew his partners preference. He blew by it, and this idea, I think again assuming best intent. He wanted to create a romantic moment, that they would sell forever. He just colossally missed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah. And we've talked in the past about the concept of men's Raya, the idea that that from a legal perspective, in order to be guilty of certain crimes you have there has to have been like a malicious intent. And I don't think that that in order to be an asshole, I think one element of that is meant right. You have to, you have to have this idea that you're do you know you're doing something wrong, you're doing in any way. Like. That's how you get to be an asshole. So I'm not willing to call him an asshole. But he sucks. And he was. But I also think I agree with you. He sucks. And you, hella tone deaf and wasn't listening to her. Which gets like like like gets right up again like almost like he's he's like he's like he gets the ball down to like the two yard line. Like he's really close to being an asshole here, but I'm just going to go with he really sucks because you just don't blow off your partner when they give you something that important and she's totally, you know, I, her emotional response. I'm, I'm, I'm and I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. There is no other way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

I don't think no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To respond to that moment, other than to say I set a boundary, I said I'm not. Going through this, I'm leaving.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah. And he could. Yeah, she could have quote played along. But that's that's too much to ask in the moment to be, to be that shocked even when people like like you see this all the time like people know they're going to get engaged and even when they know the engagement question is coming it's still this like shocking moment and she didn't expect it because they're a public place.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not that I'm not there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

And he knows better because they talked about it. Yeah, well, she was expecting it. She wasn't expecting in that restaurant, expecting her to then, like, have the wherewithal to say Ohh, I'll play along with this. No, no. That was, I will say for that that might get him over the goal line to be an asshole for getting mad at her. Yeah. When he said like, you should have played along getting mad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

At her now he won't cross the long.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think you did. Yeah, I. And sometimes we do expect our partner to go along or to to function when they're overwhelmed with emotion and that is really not fair and really an unreasonable ask can do some significant harm in a relationship. I think you've you've moved me on this a little bit, Dan. I'm going to go with. You know he he is pretty dickish here for getting angry with her about being upset in that moment and turning that blame on to her. He really needed to fall on his sword and say I am so sorry. I completely misread that. And my deepest apologies for putting you in such a difficult position.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The initial thing I could totally see him getting caught up in the excitement of the massacre. It's really cool way. And I've got really good fit. Like, I'm getting really, really excited about it. And like, like, yeah, yeah, she said, but. But but I know. She'll like it. In the actual like and see him getting caught up in that place. Yeah, like, it'd be really cool, but like, I could. I could see that. And that's why I'm not willing to call an asshole for that because he was tone deaf.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Let's just talk on the restaurant, right? For Olympic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

He was a he. He failed her. Afterwards, yeah, is only statement is honey. I am so incredibly sorry. Like he should have been completely like I fucked up. I was wrong. You were right. I never should have done that and spent and eventually. Like if he handles that right, it becomes this like hilarious story 20 years from now that they tell about how badly he bucked up. Not not realizing what you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I mean, I really feel like this a turning point potentially for this relationship. You know, we're going to shout out to John and Julie Gottman again when we talk about communication and how do we talk about our pain point. And as he blaming her, engaging in defensiveness and sort of criticism and contempt, which we know are really necrotic or or problematic for couples communication, this increases the likelihood that that they are not going to be able to get past this in a productive way unless he can come back around and really take responsibility and ownership for hurting her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah, yeah. And quick shout out Michael Link in the show notes for our, for our work for the sheet we've put together and I see I see we it's mostly. Right. The sheet we put together on on these Gutman principles that I think are really, really important about relationships put together a nice one pager that people love on our website, you'll be able to click through that. But yeah, in our relationships like the most important thing we can do when we screw up in our relationship is say, yeah, I screwed up and. Our temptation is to double down. No, I didn't screw up. You did. And that effort to defend oneself is. In almost every single case, I just can't think one about my head, but almost every single case defending yourself is wrong, and the better thing to do is to point out your mistake. And often when I'm doing couples or people say, well, I want to defend.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. That's it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Myself and like, no. You don't. As soon as you start defending yourself.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

You’re. You're losing the connection with your partner. Go out of your way to find your faults and point them out openly and honestly and that's the way we move for to get forward together when we're doing couples work. You don't know it. It's a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. Tough thing to hear, by the way. I now think of that conversation as the I done tucked up conversation. Thank you, Dan. I hear you in my head with that all the time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

It's no, it’s. It's amazing to watch. When I when I work with couples and someone gets it and they like, wow, I fucked up like I am so sorry and you just see their partner immediately soften and get closer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yep. And I'll point out a couple sometimes did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yes. Did you? Exactly. Did you see how much closer he got to you or, you know, closer? She got to you when you said I sucked up. And when I funked up, I hurt you. Yeah. And I really don't want to hurt you. I want to do this differently. That's magic. And when? And if you can, if if we can get couples away from defending themselves.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You see that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler

And arguing back and doubling, tripling. You can get them to that place where they can point out their own flaws. The magic happens. I'd love doing couples work with folks who are able to get to that. Place not always easy though sometimes. Takes a while and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael often there are pieces of information and the comments that are useful to our discussion. I mean, think Dan and I've kind of created a ruling here, but is there anything else that we missed in the discussion? You would like to point out or got filled in.

Host: Michael:

No, there really wasn't any follow up from the original poster. And I mean one of the things I guess that the, the. Internet and I'll I'll give you feedback on them was was very, very much on your side like they you know it was for them. It was very cut and dry. But one of the things that came up a couple of times was like asking about the family. Like, why does what are the arguments that your family is saying, that you overreacted and why do they not support you like, what's going on with your family? Essentially, and so I don't know if you want to talk about that part at all or if it just kind of falls into the same campus.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We want to know why. The family would have any way over this. I mean the, the weight of the family shouldn't matter whether or not she was uncomfortable. She was uncomfortable, period. And the sentence were done. There's no argument that family can give. That should again tell her that. Well, you reacted badly. I think that doesn't matter to me what their opinion is. Like kind of fuck you. It's not your proposal. And you are just potentially building a case for her to continue to engage in a piece of the relationship that's causing her hurt and harm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. The Internet basically said absolutely you're not the asshole you told them what you needed, even in the moment when it started. You said no. And now please stand up like there was a reminder like, no, actually I'm really not OK with this. You know, he had a couple of opportunities. Most people went then so far as to say, like, you dodged the bullet. You know, 91% of failed proposals lead to a breakup. I don't know where that percentage came from, but that's what somebody said, right? I'll just say, like, my favorite, my favorite boat. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Abraham Lincoln. Like, right. Others that do not marry this man. He doesn't care about how you feel, only about his own preferences. And this will continue.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Probably like.

Host: Michael:

And then the last one that I'll quote was please do some research on the characteristics of a narcissist, this controlling self-centered behavior of this of his. Is one that you'll see and other narcissistic qualities in him run for your life. You will never change him and he won't change. I mean, well, this was a failure for sure. This an absolute failure. But go ahead. Failure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But you know, I'm not ready to use the narcissist word boy, we use that a lot these days. Yeah, is a pattern. Across relationships and situations, we cannot assume this guy's a narcissist based on one interaction. One kind of situation or or role functioning. Not not. There I call out that that commenter that is absolutely an overreach as far as a label.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah, 100 percent, 100%. We we we we banned the about the word narcissist really should be reserved for. Very specific in Special Situations and as as Gayle mentioned, a pattern of behavior he done thought up absolutely, and if he's willing to own it that this, this, this relationship is not over because of this mistake. It has been ruptured for sure. And there's a need to do work on the relationship, but I'm not really. I'm not ready to tell her to throw in the towel over this. People make mistakes. They didn't. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do they do and we need? To just be very careful, careful about labeling other people's relationships and other people's partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah. And I certainly see that you know, both seeing for people like someone makes no he needs to, especially if it's all in, you know, you need to leave them or no, they're great. No, let's let's judge people by the entirety of their choices and behaviors, not by us. And. With, with exceptions obviously. Obviously, yeah, I mean, but but but but this. This the sort of thing I think it's recoverable, but it's. But there's a rupture here that needs to be repaired.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate. Nick glimpse and collective consciousness and reforms. Remember, morality is often Shades of Grey, and not just black and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

White, white. I also think that sometimes reality is trying to imitate art. Why is it that we continue to try to emulate these ROM Coms? They don't end well. We're always.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Please please yeah.

Host: Michael:

Michael, so please follow the share very tough using the podcast platforms, your neighbors and friends, and let's always stick around to the credits for the bonus conversation. See you on the other side.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Gal what speed? What speed? Are you listening to your podcasts?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

At Ohh never less than 1.5 and you know what? I'm sorry if you're a slow talker. I got that bad boy in 2.0. Even even us like. I'm a pretty fast talker back then. I think you do a really great job of slowing your cadence down from when you and I, you know, just even normally converse you. You are really thoughtful and in a really good public speaker that way. And I try to take notes and. Do some some of the thinking. I naturally have a very fast speech cadence and maybe that's where my impatience comes from. Other podcasts, but I will 100%. Even our own podcast 1.5 feet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Man. Yeah, that's right. I asked them in part because I listened to most of my podcasts at 1.5. But this one I find it hard to track us any faster than 1.2 really. So I have to listen to this podcast at 1.2 instead of 1.5 where I listen to most of mine. I can't get to two point now. I just my brain doesn't operate as.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Quickly think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I shouted to you, Dan I. Wouldn't have ever occurred to me to speed it up? And you mentioned it, I don't know years ago and. I was like ohh this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Wasn't my idea, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I'm sure not, but like again, like many good ideas. You you hear it and you steal it and you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

But so but but. Share it along, but I would love to hear from people letting us know. Like, where do you? Where, where, where, where are are we 1.5 podcast? Are we a 2.0 podcast? Are we at we at 0.8? Podcast you have to slow down to really hear. It's probably not. All right anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Let's just double listen. They go back and listen again because you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

Yeah. Really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There's so much rich content.

Dr. Daniel Kessler

But hey, thanks so much for listening. And Michael, play us out.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thanks for tuning in. Check us out next week for a whole other riveting debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. And today I'm joined with no. I've been joined by Doctor.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes, join by join by. Hi, I'm Dan.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Going by.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Daniel Kessler and I'm the business partner of Doctor Gayle MacBride and we're looking forward to today's Internet conundrum and answering the questions that people have about relationships. So, Michael, what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you. Actually doing the heavy lifting today. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Dan, excellent. Michael, what do you have for?

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Us today.

Host: Michael:

Well, I do have. I was telling. I was telling Gayle beforehand. Like I have several that I'm actually really interested in. So I've had to, like, narrow it in and hone it. But I guess for any of the newbies out there, our quick introduction is if you don't know what any Nashville is in short, somebody online has offered a scenario and asked who is the asshole here because the Internet is who you want to turn to for that. Kind of thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Always. Always.

Host: Michael:

Stan and Gayle. Are going to help us determine in this specific situation who's the asshole? And you know where there are identifiable information in the posts? We've tried to change those and be a little more discreet. And if you're new, there's always a bull in this conversation at the end of the episode. And this week, we happen to have something from our mail bag. So hang around, pass the credits and hear that conversation. But for now. Neither Gayle nor Dan have heard or read this. I haven't tipped their hands to anything about it, and let's go. So this topic today is, am I the asshole for being too brutally honest at family therapy?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What? What? What? Our radio listeners don't know is that we both get both Gayle and I have intensely puzzled looks on our. Base. Usually there's a snap judgment here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Reference the radio, by the way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know, I know, the reference to radio. That's awful. What our podcast listeners don't know. I'm old. OK, so I sit, radio. I apologize. Holy cow.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yes. Yes. What our what our listeners are are not aware of is our puzzled faces versus our usual jump to a conclusion about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. So Michael, please share more. This is going to be interesting. I'm yeah, I'm puzzled I'm. Having my coffee.

Host: Michael:

So the poster says me, my dad, my dad's wife, my sister, and my step sister are in family therapy and my dad and his wife and I had a session between. I mean the three of on Thursday. I don't know. I'm not exactly sure of the calendar here, but therapist suggested that we have the three of us have a long time because some delicate stuff needed to be discussed. And she felt it better that the girls not be there for her. So there's there's an age gap between the poster and his sister, his sister and step sister are about. Eight years younger than than him. So the point of therapy was because my dad and his wife noticed that I wasn't close to my step sister and that my sister and step sister were. Close and they wanted us to be more of a family. After six years. The thing was, I was brutally honest about the adults. I do treat my sister and step sister different and I favor my sister. That was always true. I never saw them both as my sisters and the truth. There were confessions or whatever you want to call them. Took my dad. And his wife by surprise, therapist told them there was a lot to take in, but that there were some similar sentiments shared by the girls cause therapist. With them independent like most on them not being close, she told them that they missed a lot by assuming and that my step sister felt isolated because of it all. Ultimately, at the end of the day, the struggle we ran into is that the mom and step sister, I'm sorry, stepmother, were shocked at how brutally honest I was in therapy. And told me that I shouldn't have been so revealing of the inner workings of our family that it violated their trust. So the question here is, am I? Get an asshole for being brutally honest.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Huge pause again.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As therapist, we want our client to be honest. We want them to be vulnerable. We want them to be revealing. I am my paws. I don't know about yours. Dan is the root. The word brutally. Yeah. I don't like when people create excuses versus reasons we can go into that. Yeah, for being brutally honest about anything. You know, I think it's just an excuse to, to behave and communicate poorly or aggressively and unkindly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no. And I was trying to figure this out because he's he's. But he says brutally honest. And, you know, when there are favorites and if it sounds like he's being brutally honest about it, that he was favoring his sister over his step sister and treating them differently, maybe he said it more meanly than that, but that sounds like the sort of disclosure that. 1 is really helpful in a room for people to acknowledge that they're treating people differently. And two, probably everyone knows already. Like when those those kinds of favorites being played in families, no one's like ohh, I'd never noticed that before.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. They're they're a little like, finally you're willing to admit it, and we can talk about this more openly and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of like the and this is one of those questions. One of those statements that really get tackles up, parents sometimes have favorites. Yeah, parents often.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You. And I don't let's be really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Clear. Ohh no, no, no, no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like I'm really not and off.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And everyone in the family knows who the favorites are and when the and I should say it differently. Maybe not favorites, but like children that I shouldn't say that parents necessarily have favorites, but parents often have children. That ideas get along with easier. They're more alike, they have better communication with, and this can be really hard because often people know it and don't talk about it or know it and do talk. About it and it's challenging.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is, it is, and I think so. If we go back to the OP's family for a moment, there is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MHMM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sort of an unsolvable dynamic, which is the OP saying that this step sister was not in his view sister and the blended family. I think that's really difficult. How do you create a sense of siblinghood togetherness awesomeness in a blended family and?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And one of the family, one of the one of the questions that that it really isn't answered here is how that, how and when that family came together. Because when we see families that that, that that combine early and kids are young.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We see a lot. We often see a lot more of that sibling of that thing. You know, I wouldn't expect someone to treat someone like like they're the same as their sister. If they came into their lives in their late teens, early 20s and we don't know that here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We really don't. Yeah. And we do definitely see blended families get together across that age spectrum, sometimes from very young. And like you said. I mean, there are just people that you get along with easier and naturally gravitate toward. And when families come together, that's not necessarily true of the children. They don't have much say in it, and they may not be very close. So that's unfortunate and not as hard. And I don't know if the likelihood of creating that kind of siblinghood goes up if you are younger when you get together or not. Or if it's just as like, do you have?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A sense of that, damn, I, you know, I only anecdotally I haven't seen any data that support that and you know what happens here is that there's a reality that some families blend other family.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

These NICs and other families just sort of combine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And don't necessarily and really all of that happens and getting to getting to the point made by OP. Here again, I still think when these kinds of things happen, people know it. Yeah, you know, everyone in the family knows when they're when siblings are just siblings versus when, you know, when step siblings become siblings and when the family knows when step.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Siblings are still not all fully seen as siblings and I think that depending.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This happens, sure, and I would go so far as to say you're not an asshole for not calling your step sibling a sibling and dropping the steps necessarily.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If if that right and it really depends.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it. On what you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do with that? Yeah, I where I'm struggling here and I don't want to jump to the to the end. But what we don't know is. How it was said in the room because.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And then. Back to my original comment, I'm a little concerned about that rude word. Brutal.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. I could certainly hear. Certainly hear him saying, you know, I just, I never. Really saw the step sibling is the same as in the same way, and you know I she's terrific and wonderful. And we get along great. But I just. I've never got there. I never got there. And what a great self disclosure that would be. On the other hand, I could also hear him going well or her. We don't know the gender of the person here. Maybe we do. And I don't remember.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We got them going well, they're not my real sister. Why should I care? Yeah. So, like, how is it sad?

Host: Michael:

It's all delivery.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Back to not what you say, how you say it. How did I feel when you?

Host: Michael:

Right, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Said it and I don't. I honestly don't think. I mean, I'm going to jump. Really jump the gun here. I don't think we can answer this question because we don't know how it was said. If it was said one way. It's a wonderful self disclosure or an opportunity to begin having great conversations suddenly the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Agree with that and I think this is maybe why we're not moving. Down that path toward making the judgments we often are kind of leaning and hedging and holding back our our our opinions, but I really think there's not enough information here which I'm kind of excited that the host has found us one of these opportunities because usually we, you know, we. To judgment, and in this particular Internet thread, there are lots of options for the declaration, right? You're the asshole. You're not the asshole everyone talks to you, but sometimes there's just not enough information. Now maybe this is a great time to throw the conversation to Michael and say, was there any additional information posted in the comments?

Host: Michael:

Please. Yeah, I was going to jump in. I was going to say I had a couple, a couple of thoughts that were kind of interesting side conversations, you know, so in asking for clarification, other pieces came out and you know, so one of the one of the kind. Side conversations was like what therapy is, you know, is therapy and opportunity to rule abuse at each other, which is what in some of the examples that the poster who was male seemed to be suggesting like this was the time to, like, get stuff off my chest. And then, like, there was this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Get some stuff off your. Chest, sure, but in a kind and constructive way. It's not constructive, it's not therapy, right?

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And then there was also a question about like they kept asking like explain how. Family therapy worked, you know? And so he went into more detail and he said essentially there was a big group, all five of them. Five. Yeah. All five of them together. Then they each had kind of one-on-one sessions at different times. And then they were, like kind of small group pieces and. And some of the one-on-one conversations between the op. And therapist, therapist suggest like said, like you need to say this to the larger group. But apparently it was more exaggerated when he said it than. Therapist had anticipated so, like therapist was a little taken aback by some of the things he said as well. Which were, you know, like, I don't know, kind of broke down like what family was and how he felt connected. And like, I've never really felt connected to you or your or your daughter. And you know, like some of those things came out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you. Oh.

Host: Michael:

That way. So but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, oh oh, so the adult child. The OP was also commenting on the closeness to the step parent, not just the step sibling.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And again this could be this could be like. You know, I for whatever reason, we just didn't click and I we never connected and I'm sad about that. Or it could have been like, well, you know, we never connected, you never tried. What's the point here? Yeah. I just don't think we have enough here. And I've been in so many therapy sessions where people are recounting something. And I'm like, like, I've often wondered, what's the. What's the context? Not that I don't believe my clients cause, but you know you bring work with what people bring in, but I certainly work with couples who see the exact same situation completely. Really, you know and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yep. And. And even if the. So I'm going to speak for therapist in this room for a moment. Right. Like as a therapist sometimes, especially when you're working with more than one person at a time, somebody says something that you kind of expect but not with the intensity that you expect. And you and I, Dan, have both said we are not therapists. That. Pull back a lot of that disclosure. I, you know, sort of trained with that like it's OK to have a feeling. In the room too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I probably would have expressed some. Sound of surprise and I would have worked with the intensity there to to talk about what that was like and where that was kind of coming from and make that a part of that therapeutic process instead of just what I hope that in this experience, it wasn't just it, you know, it's just like flopped and just sat there and everyone you know was looking at this, this big old disclosure in the middle of the room. Well, fuck. Now what do we do?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And A and a good therapist is going to prevent disclosure or not. You can't necessarily print disclosures, but you're going to step in and work to not as much as you can decrease the cruelty if the person is really being mean, if they're being. Really honest, Interrupt that. Yeah. Like, wait a second. This like, if you're being productively honest, but it hurts the person some. And it's in service of positivity, maybe. But if you're just being mean, being brutally honest, quote UN quote, to be brutally to be, to make you finding an excuse to be, quote, UN quote, honest. I'm going to probably interrupt that and like, that's not productive. That's not why we're here today. I'm not here to hurt each other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And unfortunately. You hear too often, or at least I have from clients coming into my office. Yeah, we tried the family therapy, but really it just felt ganged up on, which is never the goal of a therapist, but I think can be an outcome. Unfortunately, if you don't have enough kind of, I don't say control of the room, but you definitely need to be able to intervene firmly and redirect.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Someone when they're becoming to when they're becoming unproductive in their communication.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. And I think that that so there's there's so much that got left out here that that that I would like to have like I don't think we can we can render an asshole not an asshole because we just don't know whether OP brought this forward in a really kind and self disclosing way or in a totally cruel, brutal dickish way.

Host: Michael:

Well, let me ask you this, because this is one of the conversations in the threads and nobody, nobody, a lot of times you'll get interesting professionals in the comments. You know, they'll say like, oh, I'm a psychologist and this is, you know. Blah, but one of the things that kept going back and forth is like what family therapy looks like and you know well, you shouldn't be having there was like this whole like you shouldn't be having one on ones with your psychologist. You should stick in the group and like, those are unproductive and whatever. And then other people saying like, no like family therapy. Kind of what it needs to be and takes on different forms and it kind of depends on the situation. And so I don't know, I'm kind of curious, you know, both of you, what does family therapy look like? Like what is that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I loved what you just said. Which is family therapy, is what it needs to be. There is, you know, I do what I do until I do it differently sometimes. And in this case where you have 5 adult players that need to maybe have different kinds of conversations, maybe you, you reorganized, but I think there's an underlying principle that we are working together as a group as a six sum. In this case, you've got five adults. And a therapist and. You don't. You are not going to keep secrets, but sometimes there's some work that needs to be done in One Direction or another, and then that needs to be brought back to a larger group. And so I don't necessarily have a problem that they met a three and excluded 2 as long as the intention was to bring the work of the three back to the five.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. I tend to agree. I don't do a lot of work with families. I do a lot of work with couples and I often say like if I'm seeing couples, I don't see them individually except when I do right. Usually don't, but sometimes it's necessary to have a couple of visits individually to bring before bringing a couple back together. So in those cases I do and I think it's absolutely the same with family. Yes, by and large, you want to see the family as a unit, but there are times when you're not going to and that'll be that. That has to be clinically driven though. Yeah. And what's the best?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Exactly based on the what's being presented right now and you know I would disclose that plan and you know we would talk about it and prepare for it. It wouldn't be a surprise to anyone. It would understand the rationale and you know, we would try, we would do as much as we can. I don't want to say to make it fair, but certainly equitable to the issue.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Clinical choice so. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That hand that we're being asked to help them work on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, as described, I have no problem. With it, be honest. The way it's loyalty described it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, no. And I do get a little a little prickly when I hear some arrangements when clients bring them in, they say, Oh my therapist, and I can get really quickly about it. This did not. This didn't raise any.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hairs for me. No, no, I'm good with it. I'm good with the way they. Did this, what else did the Internet? Yes as described.

Host: Michael:

OK, Sam.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, as described. Thank you.

Host: Michael:

So the Internet unlike you, was very eager to pass a verdict. So you you really had. You you really had two sides here, which were the people who really supported the original poster saying, you know, no therapy is a place for brutal honesty, like the place where everybody needs to be. You know, as that needs to lay it all out there, you know, it's an opportunity to have these discussions that you can't have when it's not mediated. With the word that kept being used, I was like ohh mediation is really the right word but. So that was that was one kind of take and then the other one didn't say that the original poster wasn't the asshole, but really pointed the fingers at the father and step parent, the stepmother and said that they were the asshole for trying to control the scenario that it felt like. And then this was where the Internet. It created its own little scenario and it's awesome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'll say I don't remember where they control. Where did they control the scenario? I don't, I don't.

Host: Michael:

I don't they they they made-up this version, which is where the, you know, in the internet's. The step parent, the stepmother and the parents thought like we'll have therapy to fix this, and then it didn't go the way they wanted. And so then they're angry. And so they are the assholes as what was declared so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no, I that's that's there's there. There's a real stretch here. I, I've certainly seen families like this that are combined families with their struggles and again I'm going to assume positive intent because we always want to assume positive intent and say gosh I really wish we could all get along better. Can we go to family therapy and everyone going yeah. Let's go to family. There. But but I want to jump back. You talked about honesty and I've and I think that we really have to be careful about whether like, I'm not saying we should. We should be intentionally dishonest. But I think sometimes people use honesty as an excuse to say mean things and really evaluating is this honesty helping or hurting a relationship and is. Well, I mean, we don't necessarily share all of our all of our thoughts and feelings when they're negative and unproductive, whether in therapy or out of therapy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I hope would be that if you're. Going to share your honest thoughts that there would be a path toward working on that. You know, I would have really hoped when you and Dad got married that we could really have developed something that looked like a closer relationship. One of the things that's in the way of that might be this could, you know, is it something we could? Work on and. Build toward that relationship and that. Openness, not just to drop the bomb and go, but. You know she's. Going to be a plan to to maybe reconcile is that hopefully why you're there is to improve things and. Not just use it as an excuse to tell this truth and then walk away like that. Just feels kind of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Icky. Yeah, and I want to. There's alsome. There's an underlying assumption here, or at least I maybe I'm reading this. So, Gayle Michael telling him that that he that the OP should feel the same about his, about the step sibling. And even if were to take the word step out, we don't necessarily feel the same towards our siblings. We are often closer to 1 sibling than.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Another, either because of age or personality style and it's so forget the step part of it. You know I have a number of siblings I am closer to some of those siblings than others.

Host: Michael:

Our interest.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Get along better, have warmer feelings towards have greater degree of positivity, have more in kind alike with talk on the phone more often as as going to getting old. For adults like and, that's fine. Like I don't think it's necessarily a terrible thing if he doesn't feel the same thing. We if we take off the step label, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We would be like, oh, yeah, of course. And children have that their parents. Right. I'm closer to my, you know, mom or my dad than than the other. Why? I'll just go along with better with them. There isn't. There doesn't have to be a quote UN quote. The reason, and just if the affinity is there. And you know that relationship is is an important part of it and sometimes we can't exactly define it and I don't think it's right or wrong. That's just relationships between.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Humans. Yeah. And I think we're, we're we're again, we're getting to is like if we can accept that these differences occur and then it's not necessarily bad that we get along better with this parent than that parent or this sibling than that sibling. And step or non step like that's fine if as long as we're not being mean or cruel about it or unkind. I. I’m kind of distressed by this whole thing.

Host: Michael:

Right. Yeah. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse in the collective conscience of the Internet forums. You remember, morality is often shades of Gray and not just. Black or white?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know, again, I often say truth is stranger than fiction. I don't think this is strange or fiction in this case. This is just humanity and family. That's pretty normal stuff today.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah. And please follow and share our test views on any of the podcast platforms. The neighbors and friends, and always stick around through the end. The credits for the bonus conversation, this one. Their mail bag and we’ll see what they have to say about it.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here is the bonus conversation. So we launched the mail bag and that's been kind of a fun thing to have and we've gotten a couple of things in there. The one this. Week I thought I would send. I would tee up for you guys to see what you had to say about it was love. The show always funny and insightful. I'm wondering if you would talk a bit about how you avoid laughing in sessions because I'm sure people will have to tell you some funked up stories or ask ridiculous questions. What do you do?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here. You know, I saw this and I thought people tell stories. About their lives and we have feelings. And for me it's not so much that I struggle with laughing. It's more like than I'm struggle with emotion. I may, you know, sometimes therapists we struggle with our own tears our sadness and it's OK we're taught like it's OK to have feelings but we you know it still has to be about the client not. About us, so I'm much more like this struggle with my own hurt or my own tears than I am to struggle with, with laughing. Certainly not laughing, laughing at someone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, no, I would agree. I don't struggle with laughing at someone you know, really, I think it's therapist.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The situation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Told the space that there are no dumb questions, right? So, you know, bring them on your we understand that people are in a really vulnerable space and if someone brings something that is surprising that sometimes, you know, you might react with laughter but not at them more, maybe at a again the surprising. Situation. Or sometimes I mean maybe this is not a secret, but I have a a sort of an internal world and my brain is going and it might make a connection. That is really funny to me, and if for some reason that breaks through, I'm really careful to talk with someone about like, where my brain made a connection and right. But again, it's not usually in that hard, vulnerable moment. It really is. It's, it's in a moment when it feels appropriate. And you're blinding and you're you're laughing together and with and never at.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and. No, and sometimes people do come in with things, and they're like, I think it happens much more frequently than people are worried they're going. Shock, shock us, or worry that we're going to find their problems humorous in some ways and in almost every situation. Like, I mean, we've been doing this for a while. It's like a combined close to 60 years, I think. And it's rare that people spring a new one on us, as it were, you know. And so we've probably.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Heard it before, and if you're worried about talking about it in therapy and you bring it up, probably going to be with almost any good therapist. It's going to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wanted to with seriousness and now suddenly people bring in stuff. Go. Oh my God. I can't believe the thing that I did. And they're laughing about it and yeah. Ohh, I'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, you were. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That game.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That was that was pretty funny. That was, that was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I will share. A lot with someone around that, but I, you know, this posters or this this mail bag question, really, I think maybe gets at the root of why some people are avoiding to therapy, which is I'm afraid of bringing stuff because I think you're going to laugh at me. I'm. I'm. I'm afraid of being ridiculed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And that really just doesn't feel like a challenge as a therapist.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can't, I can't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Challenge as a human. Either like I don't know, that's someone or their difficulties.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can't. I can't think of a time in therapy where the where, where I like to answer the opiate. No, be the, the, the mail back question. I can't think of a time where I had to like, restrain laughter. But I have thought of a time when I've had to restrain the intensity of my own emotions because it touched something for me, either either personal or it just is a really hard thing to hear. And in those cases.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To sit with them and I think our. Are honest about your feelings without allowing them to usurp the clients feelings because it really is about them? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, absolutely. Now that being said, there are certain clients that I have that when we work, we say funny things off the wall just right and in the session, we're doing hard work and it's at a pace. And I sometimes wonder if my laughter could be heard, you know, just running out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And the client is laughing lip right and we are having a great time and that's always really striking to me as a therapist is we're laughing our asses off through recession and doing hard work and at the end of it you know like we've been really productive and we've had some fun in that in that deep conversation together.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I will answer your question for you, since for about 10 years our offices. Shared a wall? Yes.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yes, I've heard you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Laughing and you’re laughing laughing hopefully with someone right there. Laughter.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In Eye whip whip. Whip no, with I hear I hear both, but with them. Because sometimes sometimes that cuts through some of the pain to to be able to look at life and go and find the humor in things that humor can be a really potent defense. If you used judiciously and appropriately.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hey, thanks Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Jen, thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And what a great question. Keep those mailbag questions pouring in and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love that. That's fantastic.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thanks so much for tuning in. And check us out next week for a whole other. Am I an asshole debate and who knows? Another mailbag question, perhaps?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

The chef that Gayle and Michael were trying to come up with towards the end is Chef Dan Vasterling.

Here’s the bakery Dr. Gayle MacBride mentioned in Michigan: https://www.mstreetbaking.com/

Also a shout out to Bar La Grassa and Isaac Becker restaurants in general! https://www.foodandwine.com/author/isaac-becker

And, the recipe the husband shared online is: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/1dkh9uj/comment/l9ifbyb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

 

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good morning, Michael. How are you today, Gayle?

Host: Michael:

Wow, Pip, Pip and cheerio.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know it's time for another episode of Veritas Views. Let's do it. I'm totally off script right now. Michael, roll this into this.

Host: Michael:

Alright, thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

And I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride. I'm excited to be here with my business partner and friend, Doctor Daniel Kessler. Welcome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I am the aforementioned doctor, Daniel Kessler, who jumped totally off script at the beginning. Michael, you've got something for us to pick apart today, don't you?

Host: Michael:

I do welcome both of you and for any of the newbies out there, if you don't know what AMI vassal is in short songs posted a scenario online and ask readers who's the asshole here and that's we're going to help determine when there are any identifiable information in the post. We've changed those to try to be a little more discreet and if you're new, also stick around through the credits. We always have some kind of bonus conversion. But for now, neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this or read it before. I haven't tipped them off, so let's go. Today's question is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Oh, the suspense, the anti-theft nation.

Host: Michael:

Am I the asshole for selling my late wife’s cake recipe to a bakery? No, just like that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Interesting. I don't know as a daughter-in-law and a family where recipes are sometimes guarded. Be careful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, maybe no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

This person is OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not using it anymore. She'll use it anymore. She's not using it. What? What?

Dr. Gayle MacBride

It doesn't matter sometimes. All right. OK. Can can we at least agree to hear the details?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is she needing for? Yes, I think we should hear. The details all right.

Host: Michael:

Alright, so I'll give it to you. Here it is. My late wife passed 3 years ago. Our two kids were in their late 20s at the time. It's been a hard few years and it's even harder now that I live alone. She had a lovely dark chocolate cherry cake. It was my favorite thing, and she would make it for every Father's Day or any other festival. Any other holiday that I requested it. I am a shit baker and I've tried to remake it from her notes. The notes are not very clear and it never turns out right. It's depressing. I've spent so much time trying to remake it and it is always. Wrong. I've asked my.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Let me just interject. Sometimes it doesn't taste the same because the Baker themselves just didn't make it. Sometimes food doesn't taste as good when you've made it for yourself.

Host: Michael:

Chief.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Even if even if you follow the recipe exactly, sometimes there's just a loveliness. And so I'm making that dish for you, OK?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the and the person or the person baking it like like does. It just doesn't follow that recipe. Any men they throw in a little extra this a little extra that.

Host: Michael:

You know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

It's true this is true, but I stand on sometimes food tastes better when you don't cook it yourself. That someone made it with love like that. Love ingredients anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. All right. All right, continue.

Host: Michael:

I've asked my two kids to try to make it, but they have refused. I was told that they will not figure it out that the that the recipe is too sparse and to stop asking. So I went to a local bakery and asked them to figure it out. They agreed as long as they gave them permission to sell the cake in the store, it didn't take them long to figure it out and it is almost exactly the same as my wife's. I bought one for Father's Day and my kids were happy about the cake until I told them that a bakery made it. They're pissed that I would sell their mother's recipe to a bakery this whole week. They've been telling me how I'm a jerk for this and I'm wondering if I'm really a jerk. I just want to eat her cake. Again, and have those memories. So am I the hassle for selling her? Recipe. That's the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

This was a gesture of love and connection. He is re experiencing pieces of his relationship with his wife when he eats that cake. I think so. It's a harsh word here. He didn't sell it. I think he should get. Come on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I need to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

The cake, you know, at least several times a year for them, making profit off this recipe. I don't think he should. He sold it at all. He gave it for an opportunity to to reconnect.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know. No, I I even like I didn't think he was an asshole when you read the read the, the, the title. But but hearing you know so much is about the reason behind an active in action. You know I think we've discussed this before both Gayle and I have trained forensically and the idea of Mens Rea or guilty mind like in order to. Or be convicted of certain crimes. You you had to like. There had to have been some intent, some effort to commit a crime. They're not all crimes requirements. Right. But but I. And by the way, any lawyers listening. I'm really asshole sorry for getting this so wrong. Wrong but but like you like. So intent really matters. And his intent here is to regain a piece of his something that was really special about the woman he loved. Like, I'm sorry, but those kids like fuck you. I'm, like, really mad. OK, maybe there's a little strong little strong, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Well, no, that is really strong grieving.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, alright. Let me let me back up from.

Host: Michael:

And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That let me back up. From that, I mean. But they're getting mad at Dad for trying to reconnect with their their mother in a way that's loving and caring.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Yeah. They're seeing this as like a for profit or a disrespect of their mother, or somehow you know that he is letting go of an important piece of her. They're failing to see that, in fact, that this is the opposite. This is him very much keeping that portion of his connection to her alive and that he did. Ask them to try it first and you know they kind of it palms it. Up and says. I don't know how to do it and so then they piece out on the conversation I. Think you lose the right to have a say so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think he's honoring her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Honoring her not only by enjoying the cake that that she made, but by having other people enjoy the cake that she made, I now part of it never been.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Late at the bakery, named the Cherry Chocolate Cake after the wife, like Linda Cherry Chocolate Cake.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know that would be and I like that you picked and I like that you picked a name that would fit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Would be great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Someone potentially in that age category?

Dr. Gayle MacBride

It was, yeah, it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Had to be. A Linda. It had to be a Linda had no Jennifer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Lynn. To be. No, no, no. But I love the idea that it would be like Linda's chocolate cake and it would be something that would honor. Memory and that the bakery is making a few bucks off of it. So be it. You know, that's what bakeries do. I have no problem at all with, with, with, with what he did. And he he they they did him a service by by reproducing this cake and in return they got the right to use the recipe. I'm I'm totally fine with this on his behalf and I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, maybe I shouldn't. I shouldn't have thrown down to fuck you at the kid. Kids. But you know, they're getting angry at him. I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

I'm frustrated with the adult children here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed with them. I'm annoyed with yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

They're young adults. Very annoyed at them. You know. They they're being incredibly short sighted about, I think their own grief and their own protectiveness. I understand where it's coming from, but this is really where families can get grief wrong. And they don't tend to really stop and try and listen with the intent of understanding somebody'd decisions in in, in their own grief. Right. And everyone's everyone's grieving here, they just grief is one of those hard things where I think it puts up walls that are so big and so high we forgot, we forget to look over the top and say.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

You know, how are you doing over there in your in your grief and what's going on for you. And when you make this decision, you know, where is that? Like, we don't tend to do a lot of connection. We feel really isolated. I think sometimes in in grief and it tends to pull it. Eric, where as much as we idealize and hope that it will bring us together.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I think that we we we assume that there's a right way of doing things in a wrong way of doing things and so frequently my way of grieving is the right way and your way of grieving the wrong way. You know what a missed opportunity for this kid to say, Wow, Dad, that bakery really, really nailed my. It was a joy to eat this cake.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It tasted so much like hers. Like it it what a joy to keep her legacy alive, Dad. But, but. But even more than that, you and I have both seen the number of families that get into conflicts about all sorts of things related to moms, clothes, moms, furniture, mom, dads, dads, jewelry, whatever. And I have the right to this. And you have the right to that and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Yeah, and. And I'm sure you get this too, where people will come into our office and ask about what they should say to someone who is grieving, you know, and often my response is. There are a few things you shouldn't say right, but but you know there's a number of things that you can say, and very often my advice is really to think about the person who's passed and consider something in some way that. They've touched your. Life, a memory that you have something that evokes. The fondness and share that with the grieving individuals, the closer family members. And if you don't have that, let's say it's your boss's mother who you've never met. Then no worries. Ask your boss. Tell me about your mom. What? Was something that she was really skilled at? Or, you know, what's one of your favorite memories? Ask the question. Let them share that with you. And what a beautiful way to have that conversation. And see someone's grief and to just sit with them as they are. They have all of those complex emotions and this is where those kids really failed, because the cake is the perfect opportunity for that. Fond memory of mom. And we could have that at Dad's birthday and at Father's Day and maybe even on mother. Today. So we have the case we have a year as an opportunity to talk about mom and to put forward what a wonderful Baker she was and all of the great things. Like it's a doorway to having those really loving conversations, not to close off.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I like the little sidebar here and I want to to to to jump off on that a bit, this idea that like when you're visiting someone is breathing it, son brings you bad news or or grief we. Have this sense that I need to make it better by being really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I think that while that occasionally works, I think it's it's far better just to sit with someone's pain. Just that I remember after and I'll share personal moment here my after my father died. Far too young. He was in his 50s. I called an old buddy of his from his carpool, who moved away.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, hey Bob, this is this is this is Dan, Matt's son. And as soon as he heard my, as soon as you hear me say that he was like you just said you're funny with oh fuck and that that was probably like the nicest, kindest moment for me because rather than try to be reassuring, he shared my. With this very honest moment of, oh, OK, what are the arrangements? You know? And I think sometimes when someone is grieving or they've heard bad news, we want to make them feel better. And sometimes the best thing we can do is just sit with their pain. You know? Wow, it sucks that you lost your mom, you know? Wow. That's gotta be really hard for you or how is that? Tell me about, like you said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Tell me about. Tell me about her. Tell me what you know, because those those those. Reassuring people, telling people things going to be fine. I think it's. I'm not a fan.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

No, no. And, you know, grieving people will often come to us with in frustration because that's not what they want to hear in that moment. They do just want their pain to be heard and to be validated. Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. And I and. And So what a wonderful opportunity and getting back to this situation. So Dad, not the asphalt.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

God. Not an apple.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Only 100%, not the asshole, and shouldn't be shitting on the kids. I'm annoyed with them. I'm maybe I should be more forgiving of their grief. They're they're they're they're they're more than mildly dickish because they they they let their own feelings override their dad's pain. Yeah. And they didn't recognize. I'm not sure if I'm willing to call these grieving.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Heads, assholes or not, they certainly sparked a bit of anger. For me, but I'm troubled and like I want.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

To hear more, yeah, I think the kids definitely suck here. Dad's not the asshole. I think this is a really beautiful way. Unless again, if I'm making a fax, I'm massaging it. You know, Mom, before her death said don't you ever share my recipe? You know, that might be different if you clear. And then the. Kids are absolutely the right how dare you. But you know, I think I think you know, this is this is just a widower trying to enjoy a piece of what he built with a woman. It sounds like he loved. And it just sounds like a beautiful moment. And I'm sorry that those kids shit on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It I'm really bummed that this could ruin that cake for him. Now instead of. So he's taking a special occasion, being on the survey, it'll be like, oh, here's that cake. You let that bakery at Mom's recipe, you know, like, what a what, a what? A missed opportunity to share this cake. Like, I just imagine. Like, I just got this really sad image of him, like, cutting himself a piece and enjoying it. And then, like, having the cake go bad after four or five days. We can't give it to his kids. And like, now I'm getting the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Right, yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great point. Ohh, my gosh. Yeah, they love it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Upset with them? No, I'm I'm really no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know now I'm really mad at them. Like, don't do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

So it it it's kind of interesting in in my head, in this beautiful world where Linda's chocolate cherry cake is being shared with this bakery. I have this image. You walk into the bakery and this is because there's a there's bakery that my family likes to go to. And I think it's the owners, aunt or something like that had some recipes that. Some of them, I think they make and some they don't, but they blew them up into her handwritten scrawl. Is is blown up poster size, and there's a bunch of the recipes that decorate the entrance to the baby. You.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wonderful. Love it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Know what you're getting. Thing is, you know 100 year old recipe and the quality of the baked goods from this particular bakery which you know what I'm going to do them in paper going to link them in the show notes cuz he was in Michigan who has them tried M Street should try M Street Bakery. Ohh amazing. Everything is delicious there and it's such a warm cozy feel when you walk into the store. And you see the ants recipes up on the wall and they're and her handwriting. So I want Linda's recipe up on the wall. Maybe with an ingredient? That were too omitted, so you know they can maintain proprietary Ness, but you know, get that homie peal.

Host: Michael:

So it sounds like you're both squarely on, not vassal. And you know this is. This is so one of my one of my favorite subreddits is uplifting news. And because so often the Internet is not a place for uplift. But this post really was kind of like a warm hug.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

No. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Like the people in the comments really came for. Word and you know they were. You're not the asshole. Absolutely. You know, your kids had three years to figure this out. They didn't. They couldn't be bothered. The father weighed in and said, you know, he he answered a bunch of questions along the way. There were. I'll read a couple of them really quick. So there was one that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

As you pull those up, let me just say I love that dad circled back to the post because he feels really invested in, in, in making sure that she didn't do something that wasshole like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So this one said recipes are meant to be shared family. Recipes, especially right up there until the point the family refuses, then it's fair game. You did what you did to keep your waste legacy alive. Your kids gave up any rate they had to that family recipe. Lots of bakers weighed in saying like, I won't give my recipes weighted just to anyone, but there's something really lovely about the idea of them enjoying them. Long after I'm gone, grief is complicated and it sounds like you know, they're taking out some of the sadness and anger on you. The thing about grief is it's unpredictable. It might be best to apologize for accidentally causing those feelings just to provide them a little bit of validation, even though you really have nothing to feel bad about, none of this process has to be logical, but grief isn't either. Then several bakers said every time the subject of secret family recipes come up. I always share this recipe and so this post is just filled with recipes. Zucchini bread. And there was like a chocolate chip cookie recipe and then the dad shared the recipe on there as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, the dad. He shared his he shared. The recipe ah. Link in the show notes please because I want to see that recipe. I'm really curious about about it. That sounds that sounds terrific and I can't wait to to take a look at Linda. 'S recipe, we're just going to call it Linda.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

No. All of a sudden I'm remembering and I can't remember the show that we were watching Michael, where there was a very secret family chocolate chip recipe, chocolate chip cookie recipe. Do you remember this? And then come to find out at the end and it was by a Baker. Netflix.

Host: Michael:

It was the friend that, you know? Yeah it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Ohh OK, so you know, then there's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Was Steve? Yeah. And yeah, just the one. On the back. Of the wrapper, one on the back of the wrapper. So often I you know you want to know one of my recipes. Just ask me. I'll give it to you. Probably the problem is my recipes are fairly challenging because I just like, make shit up as I go. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Mr. gutsy.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. OK. Thank you both.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Host: Michael:

For another riveting debate. And. Glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

This was a really touching one. Thank you for bringing this to us. This had some real heart.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Definitely. And everyone out there, please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for our bonus. This conversation. Who knows, maybe it'll be a recipe.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So Gayle, sometimes after going out eating something, my wife and I will sit down and try to figure out that recipe. What have you? I'm taking a shot in the dark here. Ever tried that? And you ever you ever did you come up with it? Did you? Were you able to reproduce the thing you had?

Dr. Gayle MacBride

That's a great question. You know, I am usually prone to ordering out something that I myself wouldn't or couldn't make. So like sushi, for instance is a great thing. Like, I love going out for sushi. I'm not going to make sushi at home. It's really labor intensive. It's always delicious. Just so I tend to be on that end of things, but I will tell you there was one and actually and I kind of hope she's listening. I'm going to. I'm going to shout out to Monica, who worked as a nurse back in the day. She was working on her mental health team, if you. Remember Dan and. She had this. She ordered out this pizza and it looked delicious. And so we went ahead and we ordered out a similar pizza, probably modified the toppings a little bit and then was. Like, OK, I think we can do this and we can make it exactly the way we want. We can reproduce it. And so I think that's probably the closest thing that I can come up with off the top of my head, which was it's a, it's a pizza with a garlic white sauce and spinach and sun dried tomatoes and artichokes and it's done in that really greasy. Crispy crust and it's so good, so that's probably the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Closest and I I looked out once I had this had this one dish at a restaurant in Minneapolis Bar La Grassa. So shout out to to Isaac Becker. I never met Isaac Becker. I know you restaurant. I don't know if you hopefully it's nice.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

No, but yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But like a week after we ate this dish, it, the Minneapolis newspaper actually published the actual recipe like he gave them the recipe and let them publish it. And this is the thing like you mentioned earlier, cooked with love. Like, So what if you put the recipe out there, if you want to make it at home, he's fine with you making it at home and trying to make it home. But come to this restaurant and eat it too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Wound up about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe another restaurant, maybe another restaurant might steal it, I don't know. No, but yeah, my understanding is just like here's the recipe. I'll go ahead and go and make it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

So back in the day, my darling husband our podcast show host worked as an adjunct at Le Cordon Bleu, the college that the college and he ended up rubbing elbows with some interesting. People. And I'm not going to remember his last name. Hopefully you do, Michael. But we call him Chef Dan in our house. He would go. On on Sundays before the Vikings game, or some at some point during the Vikings game. And he. Would would he? Cook or or give rusty ideas and we were going to host one time and Michael went to him and said, Dan, like what? What should we make? And so Chef Dan gave us this salad idea. It was at the bean salad idea and this was. Probably 15 years ago now. You still make that freaking salad like it's in my refrigerator right now, and it's smashed on salad. We credit him every time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This underscores that food is a way of connecting, and food is meant to be shared, and sometimes we share our food by feeding friends and family who love. Sometimes we share our food by sharing our recipes, but food is food is can bring us together, and I'm saddened at this. In the story, the food toward them apart what a great opportunity for food to bring them together.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Yeah, that's a that's a great way of deciding.

Host: Michael:

I don't remember his last name either. I'm sorry. I was trying to remember while I, but we we, you know, at the at the restaurant or at the college, we would just always refer to them as Chef Dan or Chef Keith or Chef. Whatever. So like, that was all I ever really knew him by. And I didn't even like e-mail them with them or anything like that. So yeah, it's funny. I mean, one of the things I was thinking about restaurant recipes is I do think of them as being needed to be shared and we have a cousin who has a group of, well, not I guess he makes his own beer, right, and serves stuff there. Brewery. No pub.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

A brewery? No pubs.

Host: Michael:

And one of the things that I learned through him is how gracious all of the other small breweries in Michigan were and some of the big ones like founders, was like. We'll give you all of our recipes like here you go. Started and because there's variation in all of that stuff, like trying your best, you're never going to get hit exactly right. And you're going to find your own spin on it anyway, so I'd love to that there was like, this culture of encouragement and sharing, and that's always what I've tried to embrace with recipes. I have a chocolate chip cookie. Recipe of it. We kind of we share around as well and yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

I was going to say, but we're not going to put it on the Internet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

Share that that is my husband's chocolate chip cookie recipe and maybe someday after he's passed, I'll ask the Baker to make it, but probably not cause my kids know how to make it. They make these cookies with him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Them. Wow. I kill him off your husband at the end of the. Podcast here. All right, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride

What I got from my kids to making chocolate chip cookies so we're good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, that's cheerful note.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Hopefully I'll be around next week.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In this episode, Dr. Daniel Kessler mentions the “Bowl” game. This is the closest description of what he was describing that I could find online: https://www.wikihow.com/Salad-Bowl-Game

But the way we typically play it, the first round is essentially Taboo, second round is charades, and third round is just a single word. Clearly there are lots of variations!

 

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and I am thrilled that we are here doing this again. Dan, welcome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. And looking forward to this, as I mentioned before, I love doing this love talking about psychology stuff and a chance to pick apart what the Internet has to offer is always a blast.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I always look forward to this because I otherwise I don't really get much insight into what you guys do. So it's kind of. One to to be like a fly on the wall, sort of. But anybody who's just joining us and the newbies out there, if you don't know what we're talking about, essentially what I've done is I've found a scenario online where a reader or somebody posts the scenario and asks everybody who's the asshole in this situation. And that's what Dan and Gayle hopefully will help us figure out when there are identifiable information in the post, we've changed those to. Make them more discreet and if you're new, always stick around through the end. We have some kind of bonus conversation at. And, but neither Gayle nor Dan know what we're going to discuss today. I haven't tipped them off at all. And today's headline is Am I the asshole for insisting on separate beds with my boyfriend on a trip.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Please say more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're not just going to go with no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, as my asshole colleague jumped off lunch there and made. Him have touched me. No, not apple. I need to hear more. I think this could really go a number of different ways. I'm excited to hear more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know what? That's that's a very reasonable request, Gayle. Alright, Michael, can you tell us the back story here so that we don't rush to judgment?

Host: Michael:

Of course, yeah, I will. I will definitely hook you up here and I'll give you a teaser. There's actually two questions here. So there's actually two am I the asshole questions that come out of this, but here's the scenario. My boyfriend and I graduated this past year. We discussed maybe taking a short trip somewhere, but cost is a big concern. We don't have jobs lined up in our field, so we're not making a lot. My brother and his wife invited us to stay with them and their son so that we can save on accommodation costs. It's about a 1200 mile. Trip and we're fine paying with gas and food and all the other incidentals. But a hotel or Airbnb? Could be is just would make it too costly. My brother, his brother lives in a touristy town, so it's even more expensive, but it'll be more of a vacation or a treat. My nephew is 2 1/2 and just graduated to. A real bed. The queen size bed he has now is what I used when I've visited in the past and the guest room. Is now in office for my brother since he's worked from home. My boyfriend and I sleep in different rooms, separate rooms, so my brother suggested knowing this that my brother and I or my boyfriend and I take the nephew's bed and a pull out couch and the nephew can sleep in the race car. His old bed for the week that we visit. This all sounds fine. Wait.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She is it she. She's want to sleep. In the race car. That would be. Cool. I haven't stopped. I've I've never. I've never had a race carpet.

Host: Michael:

Me neither.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Go visit the brother town and I hear stuff for a cheap stay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was going to say like, she doesn't want to sleep in the race, race carpet. Never mind. Please continue, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Everyone was fine with arrangements, but then when my brother's wife heard about the sleeping arrangement, she blew up. She insists that we share the pull out and there's no reason to put my nephew out, and she thinks it's rude that we're even considering taking up so much of their. Her last text in the group chat was to say that we were asshole weird to have separate rooms. I guess she didn't know until now that we don't sleep together. My boyfriend has a lot of trouble sleeping and he sleeps best alone. I'd rather he be rested and enjoy seeing the area since this is his first time going out to the East Coast and I don't want him tired. And. On top of it, I told my brother if it's such a hassle for us to sleep separate, separate that we would skip the trip, I offered to bring our air mattress to put it in the office. But my brother says it won't fit and if the couch is pulled out, it won't fit in the den either. My brother is disappointed, but he says he understands he won't come and he'll try to talk to his wife. So really the questions are. So who's the asshole here? And then two, are we weird for sleeping in separate?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, I love that they asked that. Excellent. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and didn't. Yeah. Didn't you do it? Didn't you do a a, a, a social media post about exactly. The question of sleeping in separate beds.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So we got a couple things to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess we're going to tackle these maybe in reverse order. I can't remember when it was. I think it hit my radar maybe about December of last year, 2023, Cameron Diaz, I believe came out and talked about sleep, divorce. Now this is kind of a strange name. I took some heat on social media for the term, look at it and make it up. It's the thing. It's the. The term that's floating around out there, it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It didn't. Amatory terms.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It really is, but it's this idea that, you know, a committed couple doesn't share a sleeping space and you know, is this healthy or concerning for a relationship? And, you know, I think there are really interesting arguments on both sides of this. And I think that there are opportunities for connection when you share a sleeping. Faith. And there are opportunities for having poor sleep when you share a sleeping space. So I think ultimately I came down on the side of do what works for you because it works. Then trying to judge someone else's sleeping arrangement. Do you think when you heard all this?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. You know, so First off, my first reaction is I hate the idea. I really, really hate the idea. I think that the and let let me say that that my initial response and I'll explain why yeah and. But there's an intimacy to sharing events. But I'm not talking about about sex here. I'm talking about just the intimacy of that shared space that I think is really special. And I think it's a wonderful in a married couple or a not married together couple like. When a couple can share that bed space so they get enhances the closeness and intimacy. See in the relationship and at the same time like. I'm aware that sometimes if one person's sleeping badly, if you're in the same bed as a reasonable probability that the other is going to sleep badly, too. Sometimes people snore loudly or kick in their sleep or roll over. Or generally speaking, obnoxious when they sleep. And I come down like you do Gayle on the do what you think works best for you. And if you're fine with it. Fine, that's fine. But I also do a lot of work with couples trying to get when I do my sleep work. I do a lot of work with couples trying to get them back to the same bed, just they're frequently sleeping in different beds. Not by choice, but because they think it's a cure for their insomnia. So I eventually fall out where you do on that show that I did. And I do a tremendous amount of work with sleep, insomnia. And most of the time when they're in separate beds because they think it's a cure. So in that case, I'm definitely not a fan. But if you sleep better separate and it work. For you as a married couple, who am I to judge? What you want to do?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There are. There's an opportunity here to be some flexible, you know, one of the individuals is ill, you know, just from a illness prevention standpoint, go sleep in another room. It's OK. It's not going to take your marriage if you know one of you has to get up early for a flight or works an early shift, it might work better to not sneak out of the bedroom. And worry about waking up your your bed partner so you know, I think again it just if it works for you, it works for you. But let's make sure that the reason that you are missing out on those intimate moments, the falling asleep. Thing you know, just the warmth of your partner's body next to you or the waking together. Let's make sure that you're if you're missing out on that, that there's there's a good benefit on the other end as opposed to ending up in a lose. Lose kind of situation, OK?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Yeah, we're, we're we're so. We're in agreement that she's. We just, we'll set this aside for now. But but you're not the asshole for wanting to sleep separately. It's not my cup of tea as either as a sleep psychologist or as someone who does couples work.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh husband.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, I'm. I'm not going to get into my personal life situation, but I just. I think there's a benefit to be gained from sharing a bed, sharing the bed space. It's a there's something very close and intimate about sharing a bed. And again, I'm not using the word intimate here to being sexual. They're intimate. Being close, warm, comforting, emotionally connected. And I think, unless it's, unless it's interfering with the couples closeness, I default to the same bed. But I also don't judge you if you. Don't like it that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Way. Yeah. And I think the last thing I. Would say is. Making sure that you have a clear conversation about that separate sleeping arrangement and making sure both people are enthusiastically. On board we can get into situations with couples where one acquiesces because the other feels strongly, and then they can build some hard feelings over time because they didn't. You know, whatever get their way or didn't feel heard in that disagreement and really aren't getting their needs met. So this really needs to be one of those decisions you make as a couple. Where both are enthusiastically in favor.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I could totally see one person enjoying their solitude of their own bedroom, sleeping really well, and their partner lying in bed feeling lonely and rejected. Yeah. So, yeah, the, the, the, the, the, the cure for that is a good conversation. Like so many.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course, of course. What is not the cure is having someone who is not a part of your romantic relationship or sleeping arrangement. Judge your sleeping arrangement. So why you need to on your opinion about that because you know quite frankly, if you don't want to sleep separate. I have the cure for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you for bringing us back. To the topic at hand.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You don't sleep.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Separate. Yeah, I was. The is it sister-in-law? Just annoyed me here. Like, yeah, like if you want to say, you know what, I would rather you not take up. You have a smallish place. I'd rather you not take up this room. And that room to set to sleep separately. Is there any way you can work around that? Is anything you do to work around that? I would really appreciate it from a space. Standpoint. Fine, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. I am a little surprised that she feels so strongly about her son moving back to the race car bed. But what we don't know, and I'm going to assume positive intent here, is how hard was it to get him from the race car bed to this larger bed? Like maybe he didn't want to give up the race car bed and this is. Really a step backward for the family that will impact them for weeks and months to come?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Now we're going a bit beyond the scope of the of the discussion we we, we do make some facts. Sometimes we make some facts up. But you know, I thought about this like I commented earlier, I outed myself for having been sad that I never had a race car bed. I don't know that I'd want to get out of the race.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Course I'm making some facts up here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Carpet. If I had a race car bed, a race car, bed's gotta be. A really cool.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thing to have, and he's like 2. So he's really young, so there's not a lot of reasoning. With this child. I don't like how the sister-in-law went about communicating this parenting kind of issue. If it is, I'm sort of assume.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thing it is. I think there are lots of more gentle ways to have approached and addressed that, but I sort of imagine as a parent myself, someone not a part of my household, not really realizing what hurdles and heels and climb to change child behavior and how, you know, one or two nights of something can really set you back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. But she didn't need to go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's really hard, but I don't like how. She communicated about it. She did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She went to the nuclear. Option. Rather than rather than focus on. I don't like this because it's going to be inconvenient for me and trouble me, which I think sometimes we're afraid of saying what bothers us, so we try to put it on. Something else like. That's better. But it's worse. It's far better to say I'm inconvenienced by this and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't want. To be inconvenience by this, this is going to be. Problematic for me. But to then turn around and use the. Attack tactic like you're sucked up because you don't sleep in the same bed. You're the people who? Are bad here and wrong because you don't. That's I'm not OK with that. That's a dick move.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, for sure for sure. So we've established perhaps the sister-in-law, even if she's well, meaning she falls somewhere on the sort of dickishness scale of something. And it's maybe more dickish than not or more Apple than that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. Well, she's. I think she's an asshole because she's telling other people how to live their. Relationship I. Just don't think it's our business if something works for a couple and they're not hurting anyone, don't judge their. And I see this I sometimes work with couples who are polyamorous. And I mean, there are many who would say that that just would never work for them to have more than one partner while in a marriage would be ethically non monogamous. They would say is terrible. There are some who would argue that. I wouldn't argue that and it's not my. It wouldn't be my place to argue that we we accept what works for couples. Worked, worked for couples and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And truffles and so on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right, right. And I would, I think. That we, we. Make serious mistakes and we start judging what works for other couples. I've seen, couples who and their way of getting along is not my way of getting along. A way of getting along that I particularly think is the best way of getting along. But that's not made my business to judge how they get along.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I think and just to interrupt you a little bit, you know we're we're calling this sister-in-law an asshole here and maybe we'll jump in, jump the gun. I think we're going to take this maybe in in a couple of parts. But she's also an asshole because of potentially blaming the sun for the concern she has about the space in their small living quarters. Or going to the nuclear option to talk about the funds needs and not being a little bit more measured in her response. So I think for me, she's an asshole twice over here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there was an.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Opportunity. It's an impressive thing on the show. I know that I called them an apple twice over, but the sister-in-law is clearly Apple joined.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know, I know, but like like? Do some problem solving here. We have a small house and I could totally hear myself saying, you know, we have a. Small. House, I know you all don't like to sleep in the same bed. Typically. Would you feel comfortable if we're able to make this arrangement of that arrangement sleep on the pull out? And maybe, but still between, I mean, it's not my business. Well, what to do? Make suggestions. But I would want to engage in some. Like, this is what we've got. Like I'm really sorry. We just don't have the space to give you 2 separate. Can you work something out to be in the same room here? You're options for that, you know? But it's it's that. It's that open handed gesture of this is what my limit is. I want to work. With you, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The other thing that I'm really struggling with here is that sense of being a host and being a gracious host and giving of my home. I sort of get the feeling that the sister-in-law really doesn't want the company period in the sentence and she the couple is not really welcome. Maybe she's feeling used or resentful or something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But you know, this is not the meta communication here is I am not really trying to create a welcome space, A celebratory space for you and your your. Friend to to come and really enjoy the end of your educational time and time before your career. Because I could imagine myself being in that position and you know saying, look, I get it and I'll sleep on the air mattress. Have my bedroom like I would have made a different. Arrangement because what? It's OK with me. I'm not expecting anybody else to do this. But for a time and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, you're nicer than you're probably nicer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Money. But like I would be really. Excited to have a company and I think there's something to being, you know, a host and making making. Time's really lovely and exciting. I'm going to tell just a brief story. When we shared a space with someone in a fairly pricey city and this really lovely friend offered to allow us to stay in her apartment on a gorgeous, pricey island.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MMM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then she left for the weekend, for the week and let us just have the place. And this was the most amazing chapter. Yeah, I know. I wouldn't necessarily recommend this or or think that anybody else would do this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Way nicer to me. He's way nicer than me. Way nicer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Than me way nicer. I mean there was a single bedroom. You've been on a couch like five of us have been tripping over each other. And I just think there is. There is some. There are opportunities to be incredibly gracious hosts. And. And I still remember staying at this particular apartment. And it's so nice that you just make it work for your family, no questions asked. Just get out of your hair and really let us enjoy this beautiful seaside town.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, I I agree with you. I think if I'm the original poster here and I don't remember whether she said she had the financial wherewithal to do this. I would go out of my way to get out in a hotel. With two Queens. Because she likes to sleep in separate beds, I would not feel I would right. I would not feel welcome. I I don't. I don't want to go someplace if you don't want me there. And I would just not feel welcome. And it's a, as you pointed out, Gayle, when you have guests, what you want them to do?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, she doesn't think that's the problem.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just feel like they're at home. They feel like like like they're like they they they like they are and not in any way shape or form inconveniencing you in the slightest. And that's what you want. And they've she's failed not not the OP. The sister-in-law has.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Totally failed in that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I think the OP is fine and we're sort of working our way. Backward through this post, I think they'll see is fine and making the app cake if we travel out to your resort town, would we be able to stay with you and you know, enjoy our time with you and in this resort town. But the moment, there's just even a little hint or a sniff of resistance. I think this whole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we are. No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bug and you say Nope, I'm not coming this really. You know this? It doesn't seem like it's going to be a good time. And I understand that the OP and her boyfriend are. I think it's a female.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are looking forward to doing some traveling together and trying to do it on a shoestring budget, but I would really think that the moment you get that flavor of not welcome you switch plans. You maybe need to look into a hostile or something like that. Haven't aged out of using one of those. I think Americans remember that we have those available for traveling.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But they can be a great, inexpensive way to travel when you're young and to have a reasonable accommodation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, I think it's. I think it's, I think it's a solution they have to. She's going to end up. I don't want to go on this trip, so I'm going to. I think it's either a cancel or a find some inexpensive way of staying. So I don't think the I don't think OP is an asshole I certainly don't think she's an asshole wanting to to not share a bed if that she's more comfortable not sharing a bed and I'm really I'm right with you. On just. I'm not happy about this, sister-in-law. She's just not. This is not OK, though. We've rendered our verdict. Michael, Michael, how do we?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How do we how do we compare to what the Internet? Think about us about this situation rather.

Host: Michael:

Well, this one I don't know. I always enjoy seeing what the Internet does because it often makes a sharp left turn when I don't expect that. But so initially when I saw this post and it was asking about separate beds, I misread it and I thought it was a situation where like, you're in a serious relationship and your family forces you to be in separate. And so like, I had a completely different set of expectations going into the post and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Uh-huh.

Host: Michael:

Actually. But and then very quickly I was like, OK, interesting. So the Internet mostly was not the asshole or no assholes here. And I'll explain more on those. Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please, we disagree.

Host: Michael:

One of the. One of the really interesting asides that took up a lot of the conversation that was unanticipated was somebody just made the comment that if it's OK with the nephew, then it should be fine with everybody else. And then a lot of people were like the nephews, 2.5 years old. He doesn't know what the Hell's going on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no.

Host: Michael:

And then then there's like this piling. Why does this kid get a queen bed? He goes from a race car or a queen bed. What the Hell's going on? He's abnormally large. And like this, I mean, it just went down this whole Rd. that I had not anticipated going, which was really funny. But so the no hassles here basically kind of said. You're kind of an asshole for dictating what you need when you're asking somebody a favor, like you're going to their house, you don't get to tell them this is how I want to stay at your house. That. Was go ahead. Let me let me jump in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here cuz I moved a little bit by this and Gayle you look puzzled. But what we don't know is how much OP like when people write these things, they're looking often to be told you're not an asshole. And did she leave out some sharpness in her own? Like she's like like did she say hey, my boyfriend and I don't like sharing the same bed cuz we we both sleep really badly when we do is it. Like, could we sleep? Maybe do it this way and this way would that work for you or is it like no, we can't, that doesn't work for us because we share it, we have separate beds. We don't sleep in the same room and we can't make it make it work that way. So like that. It's not going to work.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like it all matters and how you communicate. It absolutely matters. So I see that where then we would maybe have a different rendering about the number of assaults present in this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

100%. Absolutely. Because if she if she went to, I mean, I I we've all stayed with family and I've never like like I might have said like this is how we prefer it like would it would it be possible for like. Our kid can sleep here and we'd like to say, you know, we'd rather not show the show the room, but we're OK with this and they can ride a couch just fine. But I'd rather like, like, if that works. But it's the if it works for you. Kind of comment. Yeah, you know, and if it doesn't work for you, that's totally fine. I'll figure something else out. And that's what I'm trying to figure out here, cuz if she dictated, then, then I'm putting her move. Sliding over to like, no, you're. Being asked if you're dictating.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, absolutely. She's dictating it. I think she she definitely is in camp. asshole. If she said, hey, this is our preference, but we can do this other and then you get to push back. Then I think she's not an asshole. And I definitely give.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I'm. I'm, I'm. Laughing because because you you created this, this, this, this can't. asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The last.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like like like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Summer camp Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, yeah. Well, that was like, Imagine like summer camp with the sign over. The thing that says camp asshole and like, like, like like what what are?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The. I'm just going to stop myself right there because, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Our listeners enjoyed that mental image as well, but. You know what I mean?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Family podcast and I don't think we should go down the path of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, it's not a family, but no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When did? That happen.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's not. You're right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We first learn too much and allude to things that really adults understand it. A family friendly God path.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're right, it's not a. You're right. It's not a him 100%, not a family of vodka. If you're really right.

Host: Michael:

So so let me let let let me ask this kind of clarifying question along that thing. So because this was then for me one of the more interesting side conversations which is. Like when do you? How much? How? Much sway do you have when you're staying at someone's house that they're doing you a favor? So OK, in this situation, you have two people, and you're insisting on separate bets, but let's say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Insisting or requesting.

Host: Michael:

Well, we don't know, but request I sorry. Well, I I have said insisting because the minute that they couldn't have separate beds, they're like we're out. We're not going to do it then like that in the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But you you thought into saying requesting.

Host: Michael:

Original.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, still not a good thing.

Host: Michael:

Post, but that may be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That may be a matter of, like, you know what I'm I would love to come stay with you. But if we have to be in the same bed. Just not going to work for us. I'm so sorry.

Host: Michael:

OK. All right, fair. OK, so let's say let's say now it is a family of three. So you have two adults and one child. Do you all fit into one space or do you insist on a separate room for or do you request a separate room for the child? And if it's a family of four, you know, like, you know, like at what point does it become?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This was slashing the facts.

Host: Michael:

Now well, but like, OK, so then then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really, Michael?

Host: Michael:

They also ask questions about like dietary things like when you go to somebody's house, can you say like, hey, I require this or that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know that was in my head too, and I think it really comes down to and I think it it's similar like like like you know if I have a dietary need and we've we've done this that we've covered this in previous podcasts in the show notes where we talked about dietary needs and I think it's entirely appropriate I asked any guests or staying at my house if they have any dietary restrictions. Or or needs and if it is like OK, you're you're gluten free. Are you gluten free because you have a severe allergy and we need to try to really keep our. Which we may not be able to accommodate in our House because of how much baking we do. What are you or are you gluten free by choice? Then you'd rather not gluten your food, but you're not going to. It's not going to harm you. And. And you know, I can accommodate one, but probably can't accommodate.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The other, and I'm to be honest about that. Yeah, I mean, I think it's all the same is you make a request. So if we're not putting it on the host, we're putting it on the. Person who is coming over and they are the invited guests and I think you make your request. You need to be aware that those may or may not be accommodated. You should approach them kindly and gently and depending on the severity of the need you you know you say I can't come or or that'll be fine and you accept the answer that's given and you you make your choices accordingly. Whether that sleeping space or if that's dietary needs or whatever that is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But to keep up all of this is is sort of like this is what my needs are. This is where my limits are. Can you accommodate? Can you not accommodate? Does it work for you and trying to figure out like like what works best? You know if someone keeps strict kosher and absolutely, absolutely won't eat something that's not kosher. If you're going to come stay at my house, I'm sorry. You probably need to bring your own food. You're welcome to stay here. However, I don't have a kosher kitchen. Will that work for you? And that's a conversation back and forth. Well, I don't have enough space. To put up people in separate rooms, I would love it if you stayed with me. You. But if you did, you'd need to share a room. Will that work for you? It won't work for. I'm so sorry. You know, right. Same thing the other way around. Like I would love to stay there. But if I can't, we can't. It's. The rooms. It just isn't going to work for us. Thank you so much for offering. It's all like with grace.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I mean if you're a family of 10 and you want to go visit your brother and they have a small space in the east. Those and you will not all fit because you have 10 people in your family. I don't think it's any different than. Hey, we want to take up this many rooms if we're a family of four mean it's it's really about will this work for the host? And if not, then the host needs to say no or the guest needs to to be able to say thank you for the for the. Conversation about this it's not going to work for me, I. Think I'll make other arrangements.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That everyone could have handled. Those with grades they could have handled this with grace. Yeah, and had a nice, pleasant conversation around needs and figuring out what's a need and what to want. Maybe that they just simply cannot sleep and say, like, if they tried, they tried. It fails every time and it is going to be asshole miserable the whole time. Yeah. OK, great. But let's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Conversation. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Have a conversation. It's pleasant about it.

Host: Michael:

And it really felt like in the conversation there was there were chats that were either team, you get what you get, you don't lose your shit like you're going to someones house, you accept what they're. I can give you, but then also like you should be a gracious host. You're absolutely right. Like we'll open up your house, whatever. And then where people ultimately fell on assholes here is like you asked. They offered what they're willing to do. And you said that's not going to work for you. OK, great. Yeah, that's fine. If not for the attitude.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The two sets it is the is where the crossover.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And there were other questions like was the was the brother-in-law or was the brother having to work because the office was the guest base? And if so, if he's supposed to be working at that time, like, it makes sense not to have an air match anyway. Like there was. Lots of possibilities, but thank you so much for fascinating glimpse into conversations about the Internet, forums on things about sleep in separate beds, and all kinds of fun stuff.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Well, thank you for giving us a really interesting one. This is great because we do so much sleep work in our practice. So I really enjoyed getting an opportunity to to use this as a chance to talk a bit about what.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We know are on sleep and so often sleep work juxtaposes with couples. This work, you know, couples often tend to sleep together, and I find when I do my sleep work, I'm often like touching on couples issues and mental conflicts there. So this was one of those that, that, that gave us the opportunity to delve into that a little bit. So thank you. Thank you so much, Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

Of course. And everyone please follow and share Veritas views and hear the podcast platforms and neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about, I don't know, whatever happens to be on their minds today. See you on the other side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Dan, I have a question for you. I am curious because like us, you guys tend to play family games and some good quality time. We know this is good for. Families just really quick in the few minutes that we have left. I'm curious what is your family's favorite family game?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We love a game we call the bowl game and I can't really explain it easily, so I'm going to try to find a lookup for it and we'll and I'll have Michael ask Michael to please put something in. But it's just a game that's very free flowing, gives the what I like about these, about a good family game is that if there's a competitive element to it, it's a fun competitive element and everyone is like. Thing we sometimes often play also place Telestrations, but we never keep score. Cause like why keep score? It's just hilarious. So I’ll find some right up on the ball game because I just I've never been able to explain it. Even when people join us. For a game, until we actually.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great job. We played it with you. It's been so much fun. We've we have. We've taken it to our families as well. And one of the greatest things I'll say about bowl.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There are certainly. If there's a minimum number of players to make it fun, but there really isn't a maximum, which makes it fantastic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No many. We've played it with as few as six and as much as like a dozen down. You could expand it further than that, so it's a it's our go to game for big gatherings and you can play it when you're 8 years old with a bit of an app adaptation. You can play it with at any age, that's a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's a lot of fun, and the only thing you need is a bowl, a couple of pens and slips of paint, so it's practically free game. You got that shit laying around the house.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Thanks.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Look for the show notes. We'll be sure to include that. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. TuneIn again next week for a whole other Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and joining me today is one of two people who keeps me on the regular from imploding and doing stupid stuff. Welcome Dan Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh. Well and I will say thank you you and I and my my business partner is is someone who tries to keep me from doing stupid stuff, but I don't listen. Hey, Gayle, what do you think about me running for office? I've been running for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, don't do it. You like your life and then you get it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Thank you for. You not to do it asshole. Do it in any way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Did it anyway, how that turn out?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I will give you the feedback that your advice is sound even when not listened to. So I'm really interested to see it whether we agree or disagree on this week's Internet question. Michael, take us away.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome both of you. And for any of the newbies out there, if you don't know what Amit asshole is, and sure someone posts the scenario online and says who's the asshole here? And that's what hopefully Doctor Kessler and Dr. MacBride will help us determine. And we've de-identified the posts a bit to make them a little more discreet. But also if you're new. Stick around through the end. We always have some kind of bonus conversation. That's fun, but for now, neither Gayle nor. Dan, know what I'm going to ask them. They haven't seen the topic or have been have their hand tipped to it or anything like that. So let's roll this one is the am I the asshole for not being excited when my stepdaughter announced she's pregnant?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe. I mean like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So many directions.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, like if stepdaughter, 16. No, you're not going to be excited if it. But if stepdaughter is 29 and you know in in a in a long term happy relationship and have been trying to have kids and you're not excited, you're. You're kind of a dick.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Oh, I could see a scenario where the step parent and the biological parent are trying to have kids and make family. Between the two of them, and they're experiencing fertility issues and said the adult daughter is pregnant before them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That'd be really hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then and then there are emotions and our emotions sometimes, like lock up our responses, you know. And then we're like, oh, shit, I can't believe our panda, that emotion instead of out of the actual way I should have responded. And then, like, backpedaling like hell anyway. We should probably hear.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The story though hell scenario.

Host: Michael:

Let's see the facts. I'll give you the. Rest of it. This is this is what I have. I am 39 year old female and my partner is a 55 year old male. We've been together for. Seven years. He's currently on a travel assignment for work, so we're not in the same city, his daughter, 28 year old female called him yesterday and told him that she was pregnant. He was overjoyed and then called to tell me the news. The first words out of my mouth were what about her job and insurance? I said those things because my mind immediately jumped to where. Or how she may need. Help. It was not my intent to imply that his daughter was incapable of taking care.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

Of a baby or support. Doing it, I am happy for her as long as she's happy, but my partner is upset that my response ruined what should have been one of the happiest moments of his life, as he never thought he would have grandchildren, he suggested I post here to get unbiased opinions on my reaction so guys.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Unbiased from the Internet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Unbiased. Unbiased. Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that's your. Your first mistake is to go into the Internet from any semblance of right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The Internet? Yeah, it's always so calm and relaxed. The responses are always so rational. And I will say, well, I don't want to diss the Internet and the Internet was often like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, they they've really come through on some of these responses.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They have, and they frequently give us pause to think at the end, especially when we when we disagree with them. I have a hard like I mentioned this already, but we so often like our first response isn't always the response that we would give if we had time to think. Things through.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think this is this is definitely interesting because she's responding to her husband not the stepdaughter, so I would love to have that magic wand that paused this in in mid action and then allowed the stepdaughter to share the news with with step mom and see if she was able to pull together the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

More excited response that I think the stepmom would have liked to have given, but that aside, I think this is not about the pregnant daughter. This is about missing the emotional response that she needed from her husband. It was an opportunity for connection that the stepmother missed or the female partner missed with her. More than a lack of excitement for for the stepdaughter, that's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. He was sitting back there going. I can't wait to tell my wife about my daughter being pregnant. She's going to be so excited. I'm so excited. I get to be a grandpa and he called her up and told her and she was like, ohh, what about her job? And it must have been in the. Moment a real.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Gut punch for him. Oh, I'm sure. Because then the next logical conclusion has to be then. Because Dad's so excited that then somehow they are going to, I assume fall to having to support the kid or financially support the mother and child or something. It sounds like the stepmom really sort of internalized like, what role do we need to play in this and how hard is that going to be? And that's where. It fell kind of flat.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And it would have not have felt it would have like she missed an opportunity to feel connect for him to feel connected and supported. And instead she ended up feeling like he ended up feeling like really not cared for and not but because we learned about and but in a previous episode. And listen to that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, absolutely, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So which was about what was that about? We talked about and about a lot. That was a great one. I thought that was the Slurpee episode. The Slurpee episode. So look back at our previous Slurpee episode, we talked a little bit about hand in shit and how bad shit is and how great hand is and now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't remember I started, but I got distracted in that too. I think that she I'm going to just go on a different tangent here. I think that the. The poster did. What a lot of us do, which was. Anticipated a problem and immediately jumped into problem solving mode as opposed to slowing down the conversation. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to couples and families.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You have to slow down the conversation. First, we want to plow through. We want to give, we want to give solutions. We're adequate when someone goes. Oh, that's a great solution. I think I'll implement it and we feel really defeated when they don't. But if we slow down, listen to the emotion, make sure that we've reflected and heard it. Right, right. That flowing creates that closeness. And then if there's a problem. And if our partner wants us to solve it, then present a potential solution. But sometimes even that is an A. Ask. Hey, you know, are you venting or do you want my ideas for some solutions here? Partners that need to sometimes be reminded that they are not being told this information to fix it. They're being told for that connection.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we've certainly talked about that before, this idea of how critical it is to ask your partner what they need from you. Yeah, you know, I. I think I'm. I'm with him on feeling. I think he has every reason to feel hurt and what a great opportunity to remember that sometimes in relationships it's best if we can take Ted Lasso's advice and have a bit of a goldfish memory. Like sometimes our partners do things that hurt and afterwards are like. Like I'm hoping that she and Richard looks back and goes wow, that really was hurtful to you. And now I don't. Remember whether she recognized that this was hurtful and felt bad about it and tried to make amends, or whether she's like, no, this is very reasonable and Michael, can you feel Gale? Michael. Yeah, cuz if she if she came back afterwards and was like I am so sorry, honey. Like I got stuck on the logistics and all of this and I totally failed to connect with how incredibly exciting this is for you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't know, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I'm really. Sorry I’m down with that. I'm totally down with that and he should like, OK, I would encourage him, like, you know what, you made a mistake. We make mistakes and relationships on the other hand, if she, like, stuck to her guns and like, no, I was on the part. I was on target then I'm like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

More or less helpful, which is, I'm sorry that that was my response, but I was really worried about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Ohh wait, I've got a better one. I'm sorry if you felt that way. Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh gosh, no, that's not an apology.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you felt that way when I when I said this very reasonable thing. I'm really sorry that you felt that that the way you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Did like please strike that from any apology you ever given. In the future, just know it will land with an absolute clunk 100% of the time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And that little nugget was with the price of admission right there. Never. This is the biggest unapologetic there is, is I’m. I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. I'm going to just put it on you. Your emotions of the. Problem moving on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, it's it's right up there with. I'm sorry I upset you, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm. Spot stick put a stick in your eye. Like that's how it feels. It's not. It's not how.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this is one of those ones where I get the sense that feelings got hurt and people dug in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think it's complicated. Potentially the story tell myself by this step relationship right, often there isn't that closeness between stepparent and stepchild and 11 years and the daughter is 28. So that makes her 17. When step Mom comes into the. So they may not have that bonus non bonus child kind of bond and that lack of excitement in that maybe already potentially strained or limited relationship. It just compounds and honestly sometimes even though it's not our favoritest thing, you respond with a big smile and verbal.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This statement because that's what the situation is called for. What I sort of reflected on is when someone tells you is brave enough to share with you the name that they've picked out for their baby specially unless you are one of the absolute inner sanctum people, your response is always. Ohh think you like it or not but you give that verbal cue that you were excited and you think it's beautiful and creative and all of the things that's not your job to judge.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, we don't. We don't get here is the history and I'm not judging people. You get into a relationship with anyone you want at any age you want. It's you know, that's your decision. And I'm not judging here at all. And at the same time, I think about the dynamic that sometimes happen when 17 year old daughter meets 28 year old stepmom. And dad? Is just trying to map this out real quickly. At the time 48 and you. Know daughter is. Is is closer in age to step mom than stepmom? Is the dad, and sometimes that generates feelings and I have to wonder what the back, what the back history is for this family, you know? Have they gotten along like we get along so great from the day we met or is there some tension there and some?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, we don't get the whole, like, where did you know where was? Where is, where is stepdaughters mom. And all this. That mom, you know, is it left? Is it left like Brady Bunch where you don't actually know? Although I think they didn't. So but you don't actually know what happened to the other parent or is there A was there a divorce? Was there a death was. Feelings. Whereas you know there's a lot, there's a lot going on here that we don't get that in our office.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And we can make this about the pregnant daughter. But really this scenario is an encapsulated interaction between two people, a husband a wife. Yes. And so kind of. Luckily the daughter maybe didn't feel that directly. The husband is feeling just like he has experienced this myth and his partner and. I wonder about the. Circumstances under which she was laboring, this belief that he was never going to be a grandfather, but that was sort of about and why he sort of, I mean, it sounds like she really believed that and was really surprised and excited to learn that he was going to be a grandfather. And practicalities aside, let's just celebrate the. The new life coming into the world as opposed to problem solve it with plenty of time later to problem solve, so I am I'm going to just sort of lead us toward this judgmental part of our conversation. I'm disappointed in the original posters response. I'm not. I'm not in the place where she's an asshole. I'm not even going to give her mildly. But I would love to maybe hear in the comments or she's responded that she owned the myth and took responsibility and made a relationship repair. That's what's going to be most important in terms of my overall judgment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I totally agree with that because the initial response like we and we've all had those moments where either we. We disappointed on our partner who was waiting for some response back or our partner disappointed us and we just failed. You know, you come home and your partner's done a whole lot of things to like get and then you come home and you don't even notice them or vice versa or you're expecting some really like, wow, that's great, honey. And they're like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Did you feed the cat and these things happen all the time in relationships, so I'm not faulting that I like you want to know? What did they do next? To reconnect, is it? And this happens all the time when working.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With couples. Right? Ohh yeah. I mean, I couple remind people your partner is going to disappoint. Do not because they're a disappointing person, but because we fail our partners, we just do that part of the human experience. Disappointment happens, and when we find out that we have let someone down, our job is to make that relationship repair, not to hold an unrealistic expectation that will never be disappointed by that person again. That's a really tall. Order and really impossible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. It reminds me of that. A bit of research that I love about. I like the more ROM Coms. You want. You watch the less satisfied you in your relationship because it creates this added unreasonable expectation that we're going to that our partner is always going to get it right and it's always going to like end in this magical these magical moments. And sometimes, like relationships are not. Sometimes relationships are almost always hard, require maintenance and effort.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Doesn't require a vulnerability because what happens here is this man is telling his wife about his excitement about being a grandfather in his head. He already heard how the conversation with her was going to go and she was going to be excited and he was banking on an outcome that was outside of his control. Goal. And so the disappointment is that discrepancy between what I was hoping for my expectation and what happened in reality and that disconnect is where we experienced disappointment. So he also needs to they I think need to have a conversation about that, that gap between. Expectation and reality. And try to right size that and just remember you cannot control the response of someone else, right? I've got this beautiful gift for my mother-in-law. She's going to want to over it over, you know, at a holiday time or at her birthday or something like that. That's an expectation out of your control. And you may feel extreme disappointment if that person doesn't respond the way you want them to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And then and then we've seen this so often, people like dig in. My feelings are hurt. I am right and we get this sort of righteous indignance and get trapped in this place. Like, I'm not going to give until my partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

M.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, it's and. And once they're stuck there, it's so hard to dig out of that until someone sort of breaks the seal and says, you know what, I should have. This is what I should have done. And I didn't do I really screwed up there and I could see either one of them doing that, like, hey, honey, I shouldn't have made the assumption that that you were being, you know, like I am. I am. I'm sorry I got so hurt.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

By your by your response and or she could have said hey honey, I am sorry I did not respond with immediate excitement. I was, you know, and there was there's an opportunity for both of them to sort of own that and set the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Stage for the other one to do the same. And so you missed something here. Dan. I'm going to bring you back around to something. You almost always say in this. OK Ohh I know, I know. The other Doctor MacBride is. He's got a face going. You can't see it on the on the video version of this, but he knows what I'm going to say. Do you know? Do you know dance?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Where's the conversation that occurs 6 minutes into the ROM com that would have solved. The whole thing, that one no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, but that's a good one. Too assume positive intent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, there's that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, he the husband Michael though.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, father coming.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He did. He did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's a window into the MacBride relationship, perhaps.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is like we are very much often on that that same line. And sometimes if I miss in my response or he misses in his response, I have to remind myself when we have conversations, let's assume positive intent here. Didn't intend to fuck with your excitement about being a grandfather. That that's not what this woman set out to do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She made a mistake and his butthurt feelings may come from this assumption that she was not excited enough or going to poo poo on this whole thing as opposed to he could have assumed positive intent out of. Response she is already problem solving and thinking about what life is going to look like to bring this baby into the family and bring it into the fold and really bond them closer. And that would be positive intent. And then this was the power band it was still a miss on. Her on her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On her perspective of of that response.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Shout, shout out to John and Julie Gottman for this. But that assuming post.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of intent is so critical in relationships and I will admit that I make that mistake sometimes. And then I'm like kicking myself like my partner was like I assume negative intent there. When my partner, when If I assume positive intent that would have like resolved it from the get go and what you're absolutely right and I can't believe I missed totally missed that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm so surprised because you are usually the one man with that House of intent like you have banged it into mine and our listeners had with good reason.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Voting. Don't. No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is rule #1.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, if there's if there's assuming positive intent has such a critical nature in all relationships, and when we're in a negative space and who knows, like so many things can cause us to go the wrong way, he's gone. They haven't talked in a while, she's looking for it. We don't know what's going on in each of their worlds in that moment because her to not go to a joyous.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Place in him to not go to. Wait, wait, wait. Can we just be happy for a moment here and here to go. Shit. I'm so sorry, honey. Yes, let's be happy. Something kept them from doing that. That's an opportunity. And you mentioned this word earlier. What an opportunity for repair and we can pause at any point in our conflict with our partner and or coworker or friend or family member. We can pause at any point. Go. Whoa, whoa, whoa. And affect some repair. Yeah. And they missed the chance here. Yeah. And he was, it sounds like he was. Like going back to the original, going to the post, it sounds like he was he was like honey. You don't get it. Hey, post this on the Internet cuz he's hoping that the Internet like says what we're saying, which is, you know what, you're not terrible. But like, here's a chance to repair that. You're not taking, like, that's what I'm. That's what I'm thinking. He's thinking, like, I'm projecting onto him.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, well, assume positive intent, right? If I can't make this point, maybe someone else outside of this can help me see my perspective.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That he's thinking. Right. And it's not for a place of meanness. Like I'll show you I'm wrong, but more a place of like, if you can help develop this insight, maybe like we won't. It'll help resolve the conflict.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

So is now a good time to tell you what the Internet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Said who have we rendered judgment?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, please I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Gale, have we rendered judgment on this?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just withholding a little bit of judgment because I wanted to know if she made that repair attempt, that taking responsibility. So that's where I had asked Michael to look at that. And then we'll.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, OK, Jen, but let's bring it back around. Michael, can you fill in that bit of information? Did she?

Host: Michael:

I can. And she actually, she actually did follow up and kind of circle back around and give resolution which we don't always get in these which is part of why I like this one. Cuz you're right. I mean I think the comments and her follow up are the things that kind of make this. So she went through and answered a bunch of questions. She said obviously there's a lot more. History that she didn't include because she didn't feel like it was relevant. She works in healthcare, as does her husband, which is part of why healthcare and benefits were important to her and she was thinking about it. But she said ultimately I should have shared in his joy and then waited to see if my help was needed or wanted. I reached out to my stepdaughter and in full transparency, told her about my initial reaction. And we had a great conversation about it, she. Have forgiven me? I also apologize to my partner who has forgiven me as well. I'll take what I've learned and thank you for all your comments. I'm fine being called an asshole. I'm OK with that and I will apply it to not be such an asshole in the future. Thank you for your report. OK, right here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. I like her. I'm just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like her, but here this is. This is great. Anyone who's willing to show up and say I'm fine. Being called an. asshole, by definition is not an asshole, because all the assholes don't realize that they're assholes and people who are trying to do the best they can. They're not assholes. They make mistakes because we're human. Her answer solidifies it, not asshole. This was a sucky moment. I love that she owned it. This is beautiful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, exactly. This is, yeah, and I'm. I'm hoping that that I'm really hoping that her husband was able to take a breath here and go. Thank you, honey, and be the completely like, this is where you completely forgive and you say yes. I get that. That happens sometimes, but what a beautiful. What an absolutely beautiful and. Sir, I totally love her willingness to and not falling her sword because that implies like but but to really just say yeah, I made a mistake. I'm owning this mistake. I screwed up. And then to to go to call the stepdaughter up and to be so transparent with it. She's absolutely she she made a mistake 100%.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's cool. How vulnerable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She made a mistake, but she is absolutely not an asshole. I'm at. I'm at the judgment of no assholes here unless husband continued to be like. No you should. You know, and if he if he hung on to it and didn't accept it, then I'm going to give him an asshole. This hearing it. But right now I got no assholes here and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fine. I think I think in the end, she handled it beautifully. Yeah, I don't think this family has that vibe of of building bridges and, you know, pointing it out and bring all the. So I think I think I agree, really. No assholes here. There was shocking moment. And what a beautiful way to embrace that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And embrace change and note that she's going to use this going forward in the future. I'm going to. I'm going to do better. I'm not going to jump to that problem solving until you ask me. Love it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that's what's. That's what's so. Critical in our relationships like this idea that we're going to screw up, we're going to make mistakes in our relationships. It isn't so much the mistake. But what we do after the mistake that that governs whether the relationship is going to be strong or not strong.

Host: Michael:

I say I totally agree with you guys and part. But I think what? What you what you don't understand or what you may not know from because you didn't read any of the comments is that the Internet gave it to her. I mean she was called an asshole repeatedly, like harshly. And people made weird assumptions about like that her husband was a sugar daddy. And there's only this 11 year age gap and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And.

Host: Michael:

Like some really mean, non constructive things were shared, but the one question that came up repeatedly was like what a weird response like she's 28. Why did you react that way and?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. Oh, that's awful.

Host: Michael:

And so like a lot of people queued in on just that oddness and how I think maybe the surprise kind of drove her to the problem solving part of things so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I think I think now there's an asshole here. I think the asshole here is is the Internet in this case? No, because because like so often we like we have this initial response that we thought about we would never have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think the Internet response here really is neglecting to remember how financially draining having a baby is from the prenatal care to the hospital bills, the time away from work. I mean, this is not an impractical concern and we don't have the same kind of job security and maternity and paternity. Parental time after a child joins the family that other countries do. So not only are we in a drain, we are in a race to get back to right that ship. I understand the question and the concern about how do you afford this at 28? You probably don't have the same nest egg Internet, you got it wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I completely I completely understand her immediate concern. I completely understand that she feels terrible about making a mistake, but I totally understand her immediate, like, snap response that was out of. Right and wrong. I also like like let's assume positive intent across the board. Why would we? Yes, there's an age gap here. OK, and why do we judge other people's choices in relationships?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, if you don't want to. If you don't want an 11 year age gap or what, what's the age gap? I don't remember.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It looks like 50 yeah, 1516 years between the couple and 11 years between the. The original poster and her stepdaughter like. Yeah, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. At the end of the day, if you don't think that a 15 year age gap in the in the marriage marriage relationship is is appropriate, then here's the suggestion. Don't marry someone 15 years your senior or junior. That's easy. Stay out of other people's marriages if it works for them and they.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They have found a happy life together. Leave it alone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this, that, that, yeah, I that that bothers me and we're we're we're we're we're we're constantly hounding although. I failed today. This like assume positive intent. But yeah, why would we automatically assume that he's a sugar daddy? Why would be you know, they're both in healthcare? You know, we, they they may be very they may be very equivalent to everything across the board and just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not only that, I mean, he's posted somewhere else outside of his usual home, so it may be that he is doing state or or other government level work which doesn't make money hand over fist your daddy at all. I think the likelihood of that is very low.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, who knows? Yeah, I'm it. It. Let's assume let's all. Let's all assume parts of it. So OK. So yeah, the Internet. I'm. I'm not having the Internet shitting all over her. No, I’m.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Happy the Internet saying, hey, you screwed up. But I'm not happy with them. Calling you an asshole.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I did have the fish to find a couple of other people. So there was one that said no assholes here. It wasn't a great response, but it seems like your brain randomly jumped to logistics mode, but I don't think that makes you an asshole. Which I think. Is fair. Yeah. Yeah. Another one that responded that like, Nope, you're not responded or you're not required to fall over and joy because somebody else. Just happy. You know, just reminding. That you're entitled to your action, whatever it is, I suppose. But anyway, yeah. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, our morality is often shades of Gray and not just black.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or white truth is stranger than fiction. In this case, boy, the Internet really responded in a strange way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, not not, not entirely unpredictably, but. You know, but I again, no disrespect to those on the Internet, but we'd invite them to assume positive intent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Indeed. And we invite you to tell us where we got it wrong if.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You want to write it into the mail bag. We have a mail bag and you can write it in. And here's thing about our mail bag. We've announced this previously. You can write in and tell us that were wrong. You can even call us assholes if and you can write it. If you've got a question that you'd like us to poke. Around that, we'd be happy to answer your questions and or answer your am I the asshole.

Host: Michael:

Absolutely. Please follow and share your test views on any of the podcast platforms the neighbors. Your friends and as always, stick around to the credits for the bonus conversation. And like Dan said, absolutely drop us a line in the mail bag. I'll make sure to include the link in the show notes.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, so I would like to kick off the bonus conversation with a mail bag question. So we announced our mail bag and we've gotten some traction and some action in there. So I appreciate those who have written in and the one I wanted to go back to today. Was a question from earlier in our podcast, and so I really appreciate this. I think is a long time listener. Course by design, these are anonymous that we don't actually know who it is that that wrote this in, but the response simply says I'm going to pull it up here. So the mailbag question that we got that I wanted to maybe take a moment and address is what happened to you talking about the things in your offices? I thought that was interesting. I'm so glad. First of all, thank you for finding that interesting. You know, we kind of hit on this idea of sharing what was in our offices. And I think after a while you're just like you sit there and go well, what's interesting in my office. So I'm glad that you enjoyed those. That was kind of a quirky kind of conversation. Dan, what do you think? What happened to those conversations? What's your take on why we stopped?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Doing them because, yeah, we sort of stopped. We sort of ran out of quirky, unusual things to discuss. And what we tried to do in the spirit of that original is give you a little bit of a a window into. Like as therapists, we're taught, and I think Gayle and I may be more disclosing, though I know I can be a bit more disclosing that as therapists. So we're frequently trained to, like, show nothing of ourselves. And I think therapists could take that too far. But certainly, I don't talk about my personal issues, problems, marriage and so forth in therapy office cuz that would be kind of crossing a boundary. And this gives us an opportunity to. Shine some light on to some things that maybe people don't know about their therapists, so we'd like to. We've been trying to use the spirit of that to answer our. Listeners question, but we're always happy to answer questions about shit we have in our office.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I was going to say, you know, we are on video for at least the YouTube version of this. So if you see something behind us and you have a question, feel free right into the mail bag. If the thing on you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What's the thing on your shelf? You what's going on when you? So we're happy to. We're like this is an opportunity for us to share a little bit more personally things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we might then we might in in our in our work as therapy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

I'll ask away. Thanks and I'll I'll add like for me, I always enjoy that aspect, especially since the private practice is a tell health one. You know it's hard to see what that physical space is. And so it's a nice way to connect that way as well. But yeah, but thanks everyone for tuning in. See you again next week for another. Whole another new am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and today with me is Doctor Daniel Kessler, psychologist and partner. Hey.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good. Hey how you? Doing, yeah. Yeah, it’s Sunday, which means podcast day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So here, here we are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just cause the fans at home are paying attention. We got a message back in our mail bag. Thank you so much. One of our many listeners sent us a message and said, hey, your lamp looks like it's falling off the desk. It wasn't, it was. But it was a little off. So we moved it over and it reminded me. That I need to. Turn my lamps on. So looking forward, Michael, you have an interesting conundrum for Doctor MacBride.

Host: Michael:

And we have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Try to puzzle through. Don't you?

Host: Michael:

Yeah, but I. Also want to point out like that's the kind of fan service that we offer if you point, if you point something out, we'll fix it. So exactly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If you reach out to us, we will respond because we care about what our listeners have to say.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome both of you for any of the newbies out there. If you don't know what am I the asshole is. In short, someone posts the scenario and ask readers who's the asshole here, and that's what we're going to help to determine when there are identifiable information in the post. We've changed those to make them a little bit more anonymous and discrete. And if you're new. Stick around through the end to make sure that you can catch the bonus conversation which. Is I know it could be wide-ranging. It could be about something in the office. It could be about a favorite book or last time we did. We did recipes recently. I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What? Michael, it's always an insight into the personal world that people don't always get with. They start with a therapist. And while we're not your therapist, those to our listeners, but we, you know, people sometimes have curiosities about the lives of therapists outside of therapy office.

Host: Michael:

That's true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now there's our glimpse your inside glimpse.

Host: Michael:

Well, and just so everybody knows, Dan nor Gayle, know what I'm going to ask them about. It's always a bit of a mystery. And I love seeing their reactions cold anyway, so today's topic is the question is short and sweet, which is, am I vassal for getting my disappointed son a Slurpee? And then there's more, obviously.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I you know what often going to jump in with yes. No. You know, I'm. I'm going to hear more. Look. Yeah, I'm not going to judge this particular book by its cover. Cause I can see circumstances where it's totally fine. Another circumstance where it's like, no, don't reward him for this.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. OK. So this one. Says my 8 year old son had a class trip yesterday. He was excited in the days leading up to the trip, mainly because of the specific attraction he was hoping to see. Unfortunately, that attraction is closed for renovations for the next couple of months, so we didn't get to see it, though there were other things he liked and enjoyed. He was still super disappointed when he got home. I asked him how the trip was and he told me how sad he was that he didn't get to see what he was looking forward to. Like I felt sorry for him. That sucks, I said. And it was a nice day and we lived three blocks from 7:11, so I offered to take him for a Slurpee, and he agreed. Well, it didn't make up for everything. It made his day a little better, and I was happy. I could do that and spend the time with him with that simple gesture. My husband things I was wrong because kids need to learn how to manage disappointment. And I didn't give him that chance. I would agree if, say, I had take him to target and bought him $100 worth of toys or say called the place and reading them out for being disappointing and closed. But this was just a Slurpee. It costs a little over a buck. It's close to home. We walked there. I didn't see any reason why this would have been proportional to the disappointment. It was just a small thing to uplift his day. My husband argues that in the real world, you just have to suck it up with disappointment. And I said that's not entirely true, because adults in the real world absolutely treat themselves to minor things when they have. Rough day? It wouldn't be an excuse to rock the credit card, but it's not crazy or unusual to get someone to soapy or a chocolate bar on a tough day anyway. Just wondering who's right here. Am I the asshole? And did I handle the situation badly by getting my son a small treat because he was disappointed?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh my goodness, this is a wonderful scenario to think through because it is a little bit complex and Initially will admit my hesitation was I don't love food rewards for disappointments or handling emotional hurt. And yet what this original poster did was created more than. Food reward because it sounds like they walked there, they created a moment in time. They probably talked along the way. She did attend to the child's disappointment and asked about it and was curious and really did a lot of wonderful things to make it not just about the Slurpee. The Slurpee was this incidental thing that her husband disagreed with. I think this is really interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I so I don't think her husband's wrong, per se, but he's wrong. Like I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Was kind of trying to stay away from the judgment for just a minute.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, OK, but you know, but I when I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Explore the psychological aspects of this and each of them perspective.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

When I say I don't think he's sure when I say I don't think he's wrong. What I mean is like his point about kids need to learn how to handle this appointment and that sometimes the answer is The thing is closed or you can't do what you. Want to do sometimes? You know, I 100% get all of what he's saying and believe it's act. But like that this was less I totally agree with you. This is less about the Slurpee than about the experience. Yeah, and I, I've, I've, I, I have. I don't they're Slurpees. It's like it's like just the just sugar water, probably high in syrup water. And I just, you know, but and but I've also like I have I have teenagers and sometimes like the best way to connect with kids is to find something they really like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's what we're born.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And to just go off and I've they're, I’m certainly guilty of going to the quick trip or with my now 18 year old to go for a drive because there's something going on and getting some really horrific food and you know, sitting outside and eating in the car because it gave us a chance to connect and have converse.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you know, it's not like she's saying, oh, poor baby, you had a tough day. Here's your Slurpee. It’s creating the experience. And I have no problem with what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She did at all. Yeah. So you and I both believe that emotions have a purpose and disappointment is no different. And the experience of the sadness that accompanies. Disappointment. Brings people to us it. It is the you know that long sad face that someone notices and wants to help attend to. And so I think from a biological or evolutionary perspective, this child's disappointment is serving the function which is bringing my parent closer to me and understanding my hurt and sadness is not going to fix it with the Slurpee. Mom wasn't trying to fix it.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With the Slurpee she was trying to fix it with. Noticing that this child is having that and creating that closeness, and that's what I love here. Not that she fed it with a Slurpee, that it is just incidental. Have been anything it could have been a pack of Pokémon cards from.

Host: Michael:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Target like, who cares?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And if we if we if we if we massage the facts which we like to do sometimes on the show or if we massage the facts then let's say this kid is having a tantrum and mom is saying we'll stop by and get your Slurpee she goes to the thing and she hands him a Slurpee in the back seat and he has a Slurpee and they just go on their way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In that moment that I sadness.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And don't. Then I'm. I'm getting closer to where Dad's saying, you know, giving him a treat in order to deal. So his disappointment is wrong. He needs to learn how to cope with it. But Mom created a life experience for him where she connected with him about his disappointment or at a time when maybe even about this point. But at a time when he's feeling disappointed. So it's a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Totally different scenario.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It I mean it really is. And I think part of coping with disappointment whether you be a child or an adult is knowing that you have safe, secure people around you that you can share that disappointment with that you can be honest and you can tell them I have these feelings about this. Experience and they are going to respond. This is for me. It's a basic caregiver level of response for an 8 year old. And so I again I come down mom was absolutely in the right. I agree though I don't think Dad was in the wrong per se like I think he's thinking about it in important ways he just missed the mark.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, dad's not. An asshole here. No, he totally missed the mark. I think this is akin to a friend who was going through a really tough time and I said, hey, you want to go grab a beer? And we sat down and we had a beer together and we talked about mostly not about the stuff he was going through, but a little bit about the stuff he was going. Through and was it about the beer? I mean, don't get me wrong, it was a local brewery and it was a delicious beer, but it was about the connected, the connected experience and sharing, sharing what was going on in our worlds and it was meaningful. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no. No, no. And it was. I mean, I've done something similar. My own breakup. When this first relationship. And so my offer was alright. Take a pint of ice cream. We're going to sit down and it opens up the ice cream. It was about creating this experience. Your parents here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. We we've all done this, whether it's ourselves and our own disappointments in life, whether it's friends it but but the key here is it's about the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And about the connection with Mom about the connection and that. And he may remember, like he won't remember the ride. But years from now he remembered. They remember that day when he was really struggling and mom and I walked three blocks down and we got a Slurpee. And we sat on the edge, the we sat on the, the, the, the curb. Outside and drank our Slurpees and had a good conversation. I don't remember what the ride was though, like I could see that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Didn't you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And I think the OP's point about, you know, we do this for ourselves. I've had a hard day. So I'm going to fill in the blank with some sort of food or beverage. Or if you're at work and your Co workers, do you think you're having a hard day? I mean, how many of us have experienced or seen a coworker show up with a treat type coffee? Just because I know it's been a rough day and I and I see your disappointment and that's I think one of the most validating things when we are experiencing. Emotions is that someone else sees it and cares enough to notice? That's all. Fix it. But being seen and cared for is really important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think and I think that especially when talking about raising kids, you know, recognizing when it is that how do we connect with kids. And I think about with especially with teen and tween age kids, sometimes those best connection points happen in the car because we have to. We're stuck in the car for 20 minutes, getting to whatever we're going to. And we're just shooting the shed, but it's a great connection point and opportunity to to to just be in the same space together. That's positive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. I find Dade response to be a little rigid. A little, a little too cuz I don't know. Then what dad's response would be in terms of attending to this child. Just suck that buttercup is not a really great response. And if that's going to be the approach, then we have an emotional myth here. We're really losing an opportunity to teach our kids. Something. About sort of that emotional IQ, or sometimes I call it emotional literacy and just being kind of aware and skilled at feelings, cuz that's important just as much as academic. So if Dad is of that school, I think it's a myth. I think his heart's probably in the right place. Don't feed the kids corn syrup and sugar and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Whatever else, just to put a Band-Aid on some sad feelings, but I think he's missing the overall kind of most important. Aspect of this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now I do want to flip this just a little bit and say it's clear that mom is giving her like, like it's something she said along the way. And Michael, correct me, wrong. She's I. I didn't feel like giving him this little treat was, you know, so like, there's definitely an agenda here. She didn't post this with a with a. Hey, tell me which of us is right and which of us is wrong. There's definitely a I want support from the Internet, so I can tell my husband that he's wrong and I'm reading that in there, which and whenever someone's doing that, whether intentionally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or unintentionally, we sometimes massage things a little bit because we're seeing it from our own perspective. I would love to see husbands post about this exactly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh that would be really interesting, yeah.

Host: Michael:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It might be the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's a good catch.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Stain. And it might be my kid was screaming and crying the whole way home, and my wife just said if you stop screaming, crying, I'll get you a Slurpee. And then I don't know, maybe the facts are exactly as Mom said. I don't want to necessarily doubt her. We try to take people at face value and not but and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MM.

Host: Michael:

I love it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want to hear the other side too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, that. Would that would be fair is fair and we unfortunately probably don't get to do that unless somehow we've gotten some comments here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But you know, have we talked about and versus?

Host: Michael:

You. Some comments.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But do you? Want to say a few words about?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we have talked about Ann versus, but I talked about it, my clinical office a lot, right? OK. So for me when people say but the word is by definition subtractive, it takes away.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Share share.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

From I love my husband, but he didn't bring me coffee yesterday. Like it, it diminishes, right? I don't know. Like it just. It feels like it takes away from something versus and is literally from a mathematics perspective. It's additive. And so we're adding to the experience. I love my husband. And he forgot to bring me coffee yesterday. There's an opportunity for some gentleness there, right? Like it. It rounds out the story. It makes it more complete and full as opposed to having that more negative negative edge.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember this training thing I did like in some corporate thing 40 years ago, 30 years ago, when they called that the all negating button.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because yeah, and that good. Every everything you say before the, but now becomes the exact opposite, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Which is why you don't apologize with the buff, right? I'm really sorry. But like then, that means you're.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm really sorry, but that that means I am not asshole sorry at all, right? And so like, like I am constantly and I know you do the same thing when we're working with couples, it's like no butts.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not sorry, right? Yeah. And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was there, I figured myself.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They're hard. They're really hard to strike from your vocabulary. I still am aware of of my own rule and I struggle against.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sometimes, and I have to be really thoughtful when I give an apology, especially to my children who know this, because the moment that enters in, you're like, no, I don't mean that looking back out, let me try again. And I think it is fair in those cases to say, how did you over try again cuz I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They're putting you on the spot. Know that was not good. So you admit. I'll admit to doing this in my own. Discussions with kids or spouse being like the da da button. Go shit. Let me start again. Let me start again. Yeah, they.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And yeah, because I really want to emphasize that it's not the first part doesn't go away because of what I'm. Saying in the second part.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so that's a little refund, but, but versus Anne, Michael, I think you were going to jump in about some.

Host: Michael:

Comments. Well, I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you before I tell you about what the Internet had to say. I think not to defend the dad, but like, thinking of other possibilities, how he might be motivated. I could imagine a scenario where these two parents have had.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, 9 override.

Host: Michael:

Rules around food consumption in terms of sugar and that kind of thing. And so, you know, if you were trying to find a way to comfort the. Child without food, you. Know what? What are some things that you would think would kind of work in that place? You know, she's she's for whatever reason is connected into the Slurpee. And this is just a small, sweet treat. Whatever. It's fine. But there's got to be something else that you could do not. Food related cuz you guys both talked about quality of time so like if not food, what else would you substitute for?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pick a board game.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I think. It's like the classic I remember learning this when doing some learning theory stuff early on. The reward is whatever the person wants to do, you know, whatever their preferred activity is. If your preferred activity is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A boy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I prefer to go get a floppy with that, but that's not consistent with in this massage version of the fact that's not consistent with the parents choices. So then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure. Yeah, if we. If we can find, sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. If we can find a preferred activity or preferred choice thing that's not slurpy related, that would be the answer to this to that that that question is, is it? What is the thing that the kid wants to do? Is it playing and you know, I'll play that video game you've been wanting to play with you for a while. I'll watch that show you've been wanting to watch play that game that you want to take. I've will go on a bike ride around the neighborhood, whatever it is that the kid. Really likes you want to find that preferred behavior, but preferably what I like about the Slurpee over some of those. Some of those other choices is that that they walk there and that slows down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and what I like about it too is it also it slows it down, right, creates the experience and. From a monetary standpoint, there's little investment here. You know Mom's point is it was just over a buck. If you were to then ask the child, you know, OK, so we're not going to do something food related a lot of times we jump to then buying the child a trinket or a toy of their choice. And that starts to get more expensive more quickly. You have more stuff in the house. Lots of parents are. In a really I think good position to say I have too many things. And so we won't need just more things in the house. I think that's even just more of an opportunity for a Band-Aid than this experience with the Slurpee. So for me, the Slurpee hits that just right now, but if you didn't have that as an option, I definitely would be choosing an activity of the child's choice. And I would probably make it really clear that it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

An activity there's another element. Here, though, one thing that seems to be true and I and. And listeners, if you if I'm wrong, please tell me. But every culture I've ever heard of, and I know this is like way extreme. We nurture with food like so, like every culture has the equivalent of the feeding frenzy in the church basement after a funeral. It's like after a bad thing we get together and we and we eat. We need to celebrate as well but. Food food is like you think, about every celebration seems to have a food attached to it every sad event.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright, weed tomorrow.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Has a food attached to it, so like it's not so out of line to commute to, to connect with people over over food, which can be a bit of a nurturing thing. Now we have to be careful about it obviously, because it could become overly used and I think that's Dade concern here, but I don't, I don't and well, no. But but I don't think moms concern or moms what mom did. Fits that concern of overusing food because we do often, we so frequently connect around food. If you have friends over, you're going to feed them, right? If you had a sad event, you're going to feed people. If you have a happy event, you could feed people you know you want to welcome. People to the neighborhood. You bring them food? Yeah. No, I totally agree. Yeah. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Completely normal response.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we're going to render a verdict here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we already have. Haven't we?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, Mom's not the athlete.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's around it. Chucked around it a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And. Yeah. Mom's not the asshole and dad, like, I don't think he's an asshole. I don't even think he's mildly dickish. I just think that he doesn't get it and needs to give this more thought from a different perspective.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yep. I'm going to say no assholes here again. Had a little bit of swing in the mess. But like, not even an apple.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a good that's a good way of putting it. Data that swing and. A miss. So Michael, what did the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Well, I'm going to. I'm going to flip it really quick. I'm curious. What? What do you think the Internet said? You obviously have ingested the Internet for many years. Based on what we generally get from them. What do you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Problem is that it has some damn unpredictable we've had times where we have been way off from what we had said. Like I would love to think the Internet agreed with us because I love it.

Host: Michael:

Think their response on?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When I'm agreed with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I listened to. I actually listened to one of our podcasts yesterday. In the car and. I now I'm not blank, completely blanking on the top. Ohh the Doughnut 1 where we're where we Gayle and I were like absolutely it's this way and apparent and the Internet just like shit all over our perspective and everyone disagreed with us and we're like I'm still thinking that they're. And. I'm right I. Can't predict what they're going to say, but I would like to. Think that they're going to see it the way we do.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, they they were. I don't think I found anybody on there who said that the mom was the asshole at all. They were all not the asshole. The one thing that I think I was not. I should have anticipated but was not expecting was how much they piled on the dad and being and they were just like, you know, your husband must have had a terrible childhood and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Host: Michael:

And all this stuff and then like ripping him a new one which, you know, knowing the Internet like I should have seen that coming. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

There were two. Responses that I thought were worth reading that I thought I would share real quick. Which is one said, not the asshole your kid did learn how to deal with disappointment. He had to process his feelings about not seeing the attraction, and he talked to you about it. What your son learned is that he can always count on you to be an attentive ear when something is wrong in his life. And while you can't fix the whole world for him, you'll at least try to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Host: Michael:

Make it a little better.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Just what? What was that? What was that? That person's username? Because it's often stuff like, you know, like, like, like, part blocker, 69420. That's like, you know, like thanks part blocker 69420. Like who comes up with this brilliant, insightful that was terrific, probably as good a better summary than I have in this. So what was the, what's the, you know, that guy's username was or gal's username was.

Host: Michael:

Just looked it up so it was a trouble walking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, that's that's, I don't know it's disappointing. I was hoping for something Wilder than. That but thank.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And then the other one was, you're exactly right. As adults, we do treat ourselves when we have a rough day, we indulge in dessert or a glass of wine. We watch garbage television. We sometimes indulge that indulge before or what we predict will be a rough day. By treating ourselves to Starbucks or our favorite breakfast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You.

Host: Michael:

By doing something small like getting a Slurpee, you taught your son how to give himself a quick pick me up without going overboard. So yeah, and lots of people weighed in with like, it's just a asshole Slurpee. Like, ease up. Yeah. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I think again, again where Father isn't isn't completely wrong is that we don't want to overuse this, but I'm going to be taking a kid to college on Wednesday, and I think it's a really high probability that I'm going to get myself a doughnut on the way back. And I don't really think eat meat eating doughnuts is a nearly 60 year old man is a great idea, but I'm probably going to get a doughnut or something really bad for me on the way home. Just. And if I did that every day, it'd be problematic. But if I do that on, if I do that this week, I'm OK with it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, the one thing I was surprised that nobody mentioned that like I was trying to think through like what would I do that would be non food related and you know with our with our teenagers, I like going for walks with them and being able to talk and kind of process and that kind of thing. So the walk part of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

Work with an 8 year old with a little bit harder because there's so much more immediately driven, you know, but like one of the things I would have liked to have done is call the place and find out when the attraction was going to be open and then make plans like put on the calendar like we're going to go here to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

See it then or whatever, but right cuz what Dad missed is that the reward here wasn't the Slurpee. Right reward was the walk with mom and the support of and the support and caring that was the that was the reward and I'll give. That I'll give that, that, that that's that's good all day long.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. Well. Great. Thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white or flippy or no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Athens here. Now I often reflect on how strange some of these are, but this is not strange. This was incredibly human and I think a really common parenting experience. So thank you for sharing this with us.

Host: Michael:

Thanks so much. Please follow and share of our test reviews. Any of our podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends and always stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan, you have a bonus conversation for us. I've excited.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I do. I have a question for you. I disclosed my like I'm on my way back from dropping the kids off to college and I'll probably get myself a a doughnut or, or honestly, it may even be like, like a thing of fry. Eyes or like at Wendy's, where they have the fries, you can dip it in the frosty, you know, they get the, you know, up, so I'll probably it'll probably be like either a sweet treat or say something I normally don't let myself get, you know, what's your? I had a shit day or I'm having a tough time and I need a little like I just want a little something that to kind of like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is there something like that for for you, Gayle?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I think not a realistic option on the regular, but I'm going to. I'm just going to warn you up front. Like, keep keep your headphones and check here for a moment, cuz one of the loveliest treats that I actually I really enjoy is when you make an old fashioned. You have nailed that, my friend, and I really do enjoy. No, that's not something I typically have when I have a bad day. But you were asking about treats and. And so for me, that's kind of that's a treat. I don't get it often, and I often swing in this. When I make it myself so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would think you know, but my my my thought you might say just. Bourbon straight but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, yeah, bourbon and I have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But like not but like I want to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A complicated relationship with like enjoy it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want to be clear. A burban, not bourbon. You know the difference between a bourbon and bourbon. So I don't want to. I don't want to cast any aspersions here on your use of alcohol. Which?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Other than right, right, right. Hi. No. Fair, fair. That's where I think that old fashioned is really a treat. It's an old fashion made by somebody else. It creates an experience and connection.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that's that, that, that, that is far more important. So Michael, you can take out the part about me saying she'd have a bourbon if you think it's or gales like it, please. Well, thank you. I appreciate. I appreciate that. I see what you what you're saying there is like. It's something a little bit special done by someone else, which is which can be dealt. We can feel a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bit nurturing. Yeah. Yeah. And taking care of because. I'm not making it myself, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Excellent. Well, thanks so much, Michael for bringing us another really, really, really cool discussion and looking forward to whatever we have next week.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

During this episode, we call out statistics and information about domestic abuse. Here is that content.

If you, or someone you know, needs help:

Statistics:

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Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Hey all rare video appearance from your host Michael MacBride, but an important one as a trigger warning. Just to give you a heads up that this episode deals with domestic abuse, the show notes have resources if you're in a situation or somebody you know is. And needs help. Please do reach out. This episode is a little potentially more serious than others, so if you're looking for something light-hearted and funny this might not be it. But we didn't want to catch anyone by surprise for whom it might be a trigger. So thank you. Thanks for listening. And if you need help, please get it. Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and I am here today with my very favorite business partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To be clear. I'm your only business partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This true, but you're still my favorite.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just a just a. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the only business.

Host: Michael:

Actually you don't know. I mean, people might be listening this in the future and you might have other business. Partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go, Doctor Daniel, just from a clinical psychologist and look forward to this the high point of my week as we as Doctor MacBride and I pick apart another Internet quandary or conundrum or whatever Michael brings to us today. Michael, what do you have for us?

Host: Michael:

Well, yeah. Well, you're going to help figure that out, but if anybody is like, what is this? If you’re not familiar. In short, somebody on the Internet has posted this scenario and they asked that question that Doctor Kessler just asked, which is who is the asshole in this situation? That's what we hope to figure out. Also, if you're new, stick around through the credits, there'll be some kind of bonus conversation. We always chat about something, and those are often illuminating and. Honey, but neither Gayle nor Dan has read or seen this post before, so let's go. This one of my favorite kind of posts because it's been removed and like something has often gone awry when has attempted to be removed from the intern. But the title of this one is, am I the asshole for not taking my wife to my work event after she got a black eye from volleyball and?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh maybe.

Host: Michael:

The rest of the story is this past weekend, my work had an event where they rented out a small amusement park for employees and their families. The company has about 150 people, about 30 to 40 who knew me by name. I was planning on taking my wife with me. She hasn't met any of my coworkers, but this would have been a time for her to get that chance Thursday night and her intramural volleyball league. Someone spiked the ball at her and gave her a terrible black eye. She's fine, but it looks really bad. I didn't want the first time all my coworkers met my wife to be at a time that. She looks like I could have been responsible for giving her the black eye, so I told her not this time, but I'll take her to the next event. I went with my sister instead. She's still bitter about the whole thing. Also, for context, in the last four months AC level person at her company was fired for getting arrested on a domestic violence issue. Am I the asshole for not taking her? Because they didn't want people. To think that there was that kind of situation going on, my wife certainly thinks so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I agree. Sorry, open and shut.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I usually I'm the one to judge a book like boom, to have a snap judgment. That's the that's the thing. Tell me your thinking. Cause I have. I have. I'm leaning right. I’m certainly leaning AA your way. But I have a I have a some I like interested hearing your position on this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, I get.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Some of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, I think it's her choice if she wants to meet new people with a black guy. I mean, I think very often kind of stereotypical normative women would say, yeah, I don't really want to meet your whole 150 person company and their families with this big. Reiner. But honestly, I think it's her choice if you are telling her that she shouldn't go because of how she looks, I think that makes you an asshole. If she says I don't want to go and I don't want to present myself this way for the first time, I'll pass. Then you support her choice. But to tell her she can't go, I think is tone deaf to. To her, her ability to choose and voice what she wants for her. Self regardless of whether or not you're afraid that you're going to be perceived as something negative or something that you're not, I think a simple a simple hey play volleyball. This this the result of that. Like, I don't know, I think he's being way too sensitive about this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think he I think you're right and at this end I also I like I'm not completely unsympathetic to his anxiety as as someone who is both both anxious and male so and married and married I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And Mary?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I get. The, the, the fear. I do. I do get that anxiety. You know, and when women are harmed by their partners, it's, you know, especially if they're in a really controlling relationship and are really awful relationship. You know that the explanation is it comes in and I can I get his anxiety I also. I think that like he didn't give her the black eye, but now he's being a bit controlling, you know, like, like there's an irony there that troubles me like, like if she wants to go with a black eye, that's her. That's her business. And he shouldn't tell her what she should or shouldn't do because of her appearance.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. I'm with you. I am very sympathetic to the optics of this. I just don't think the optics are helped by making this controlling decision for her. I think the way you share and tell the story among your colleagues and coworkers helps them understand that you are not just providing them a cover. You know, you laugh, you know, it’s a, you know, this was this was a hotly contended volleyball point. You know, my wife's a badass like, whatever it is. Those are not the kinds of explanations that come up in interpersonal, violent, interpersonally violent couples. Right. You see the I walked into a door. Downstairs, I don't think you see that life lighthearted humor shared by both sides, which mitigate the perception I. Leave that he has. He has committed interpersonal violence.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I yeah, I mean it, it’s, you know, it's a sort of there. There's a reality that when a when a woman is harmed when a woman is when there's a murder there's always the assumption that it's the male partner and there's good reason for that because it usually is yeah you know and. Partner domestic partner violence. And maybe we can put up the statistics on this far more common than we would ever like. To think it is, it is a really it's a I can see. I like. I see his anxiety. I think that there will be people who will potentially jump to that conclusion and but that's not like we shouldn't like women shouldn't hide away because they've been injured, right. And he shouldn't ask her to hideaway because she's been injured. You know, so I have a question. We'll get hurt. People get hurt.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Question. Would he have made the same, let's call it a request? Let's soften it a little bit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If he had gone for the ball and fell, and instead of getting hit in the face with the ball, resulting in a black eye, she fell and broke her arm, and now she's going to arrive with an arm. And a canvas. I don't think it would be the same, and yet this scenario of interpersonal violence could be the same. I mean, we know that broken bones. Happen in interpersonal violence relationships. So what is it about the black eye that is so anxiety producing for him, even versus another very visible kind of injury?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, I think it it you know the, the, the IT is a I think it's obviously more to me it's a more stereotypical domestic violence sort of injury the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Black eye and so. Again. I am, I am really troubled by him telling her what to do. Yeah, and that's the that's the bottom line. I don't. I don't think he's an asshole for being for having some anxiety. I think he's an asshole for telling her what to do because I don't think men get to tell women what to do, especially when it's something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That relates to their body, right. And so let's talk about this anxiety for a moment. Anxiety. Is it really difficult? Motion to kind of sit with it. You know, it really can be pretty all consuming. Anxiety for me, I think we've talked about this before, is really based on the. I mean the physical outcome of the worry, right. I have a cognitive experience in my head. I create a world or a situation where I start to think about something, which then results in the Physiology of worry versus the OR. Excuse me of. Physiology of anxiety versus a similar Physiology when it comes to fear, right? And those get really mixed up. So he is worried and experiencing anxiety that his coworkers are going to think a thing that's bad or that he could even lose his job, right? But that's not actually happening. The lion is to say, is not at the mouth of The Cave. Right. That would be fear if the lions at the mouth of The Cave were in trouble here. If you're about to get fired, we're in trouble. But this just a a confabulation or concoction in his head that doesn't reflect reality. It's not to diminish the feeling of worry in that moment. It's a very real feeling. But it's just that sometimes our feelings. Do not reflect reality and I think in this case, because he is allowing us to assume that he and his wife have a non violent relationship that then there is really, truly. Nothing to be fearful of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here, right and that is such an important distinction, distinguishing between fear, which should be respected, we we you know if yeah. And anxiety. Mm-hmm. And the function of anxiety is to protect us from danger. The function of anxiety is to protect us from doing stupid shit that could make us dead. That's the bottom line. That's what anxiety is for. But it and we can't mistake it for for fear and we have to we're we're you and I are constantly working with people with anxiety about the you know unrelated to. Topic people with anxiety and one of the things we're trying to do with them is differentiate. Is this situation a fear situation, in which case we do want to change your behavior? Or is this situation an anxiety situation, in which case we want to encourage you to lean into, you know, mindfulness accurate, self talk, and engaging with the anxiety provoking situation because avoidance.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Makes it worse. Yes, and sustained it. Really. And I always tell people, you know, this kind of avoidance makes your world smaller, right. You continue to eliminate things because it causes you anxiety. And that's not the solution. Like you said, the solution is to walk into it half and talk about it. More like judo, right. You don't want to use your. You don't want to combat energy. You want to use your enemies energy against them. So you walk into anxiety so that you use that anxieties energy against it and we can start to sometimes even relabel this as excitement, right, because physiologically these start to look really similar in the body too. Not that I'm that he's excited to explain to his coworkers. About his wife's black eye. OK. But it might might be excited to use a skill in a situation, yeah?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, it's that agitation that sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system that I can never remember.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh would you like to?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Which is excitatory one's excitatory and one's calming. I've taught this in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Help you, OK. Honey intro classes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In so many at 25 introduction to psychology class, I've mentioned it to hundreds of clients over 30 years. I cannot remember which is a kind of door. So someone out there like comment on whatever platform you're on if you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can I can I tell you here today?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How to or for me?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I will. I will tell you, I think about the sympathetic nervous system is sympathy, right? Like we are emotionally connected to someone else. That's the excitatory run. Quite, quite and freeze. And we can have that in fawn. And then parasympathetic right. Para being sort of next to or less than or subset of and that's the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So that's the excitatory 1. Alright, alright.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I love to. I love to call this out, right, that relaxation response which we get rest digest. OK. And Bree? So those are the responses we tend to get when we're in a relaxed state of of being. Not everyone has every one of those, but quite frequently, when you're in sympathetic, nervous, sympathetic, nervous system functioning, you don't do very well at Breast digest, feed and breathe. They tend to go pretty wonky, and if anyone's experiencing anxiety, you. You know that again to tell all the way down that that justice system that's really jacked.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember learning the sympathetic, which I now. Remember, do it. Again, don't. So I was taught this the sympathetic nervous system being the 4F's of behavior, freezing, fighting, fleeing and sex. So for what it's worth. Yeah, but back to.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I'm curious where you guys ultimately fall, so like oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The topic at hand?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Where do we?

Host: Michael:

What is? What is your declaration?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fall.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, I'll go first. I am going to call him. I'm going to give us a soft asshole on this. Oh, that sounds bad. I am go on the on the asshole slider here. I got that. Really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That sounds that sounds just as bad. I have to tell you, that sounds really nice.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. On the meter of problematic, I really fall over the middle line on this. I'm not going to go wow, you know, and bring.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

On the meter. Yeah. Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On the hammer on this guy. But I do see his behavior as problematic and more asshole than not, and not even just socks here, because he's really giving way to anxiety. He's being and he's said controlling and telling his wife what to do and he removed agency from her to be able to attend, been filed to injury. I'm going to take my sister and it's an amusement park stuffing down dinner. It was a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fun day at a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Park I want to know a bit more about his anxiety. I really do. And we don't know. We and the you know, the post has been removed as Michael has said we don't know. How much anxiety has we're kind of making an assumption here that there's anxiety driven, but I'm. I’m I may even come down. Like I started out softer than where you are and I think I may be harder than where you are where you are now. Wow. I'm really fairly troubled by his removal of her agency. Like like regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable he feels with this. He doesn't get to tell her what to do. Period. And especially when it's something fun and enjoyable and that she's looked forward to and an opportunity and. And no, no, I’m. I'm a bit firmer on the on the ASK on this here. I just I'm not I’m not comfortable with I just can't get wrap my head around it. It like him saying you can't do that. So Michael what the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

The. Yeah. Say this part of why I chose this post was. Not only it was a very different scenario than a lot of the other ones we've talked about, but it was so one sided and Internet. I don't know that I found a single person that was willing to call him an asshole. They all said not the asshole and male and female at least identify.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really.

Host: Michael:

Online said I totally understand. They gave a number of scenarios where, well, it was our child showed up to daycare this way and this thing happened even though it was completely innocuous. Then these two were kind of interesting. This one said a few years ago, right before my parents left on a cruise, she had an accident at my sister's. Most result in a black eye and bruises on her arm. My dad was not with her at the time of the accident, so he definitely didn't cause it. Just to be clear, the cruise was awkward for both of them, but especially for my dad since her obvious questions about what. And some people didn't seem to accept my mom's explanation, another post said. Years back, I used to date a female police officer. One night we had a date scheduled and she said I might not want to take her out. She had gotten a scuffle with someone being arrested and had a black guy and a fat lip. Went anyway. An old lady at the restaurant came up and hit me with her cane. While telling me I should be ashamed of herself. You had every reason to worry, however. Maybe the final decision should have been allowing your wife to decide, and that was the softest accusation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Yes, but that's the the police officer won, though that's fine because she said to him, if you feel uncomfortable with me with not taking me, I'm OK not going out with you tonight if that makes you uncomfortable. That's if he says yes. I'd rather like if this this in in this. Yeah. If in this whole scenario his wife had. Said, you know, I look awful. I'd love to go to this thing, but if you feel uncomfortable taking me, like, if you think people are, look askance if you think it's going to create questions. If you'd rather not. I'm totally fine with not going. Then he's not an asshole. Exactly what makes him an asshole? Isn't that he didn't want her to go or felt uncomfortable with her going, but makes him an asshole. Is that he told her you can't go because of what? People might think or. Might react, yeah, so. Those scenarios that those people are giving are totally different and I think about the times and like, OK, Full disclosure, I'm an old, I'm an old man. I think about those times when I've showed up to, like, pick up kids at daycare and they're like, can we see your ID? I'm really sorry that we want to see your ID. Don't apologize to me. Ask for my ID. I want you to ask for my ID. I'm happy that you're asking for my ID. Like you absolutely should be asking for my ID. You know, I have no trouble with that because we do know that there are people out there who are predators or. People out there who are who are violent to their partners and I think it's like like, sorry if you're a little little workout. But like we should be double checking people and if some. And report something and it gets investigated. It would suck. It would totally suck, but I'd rather I think that we make we make the mistake the other way too often. And I think we need to if we're going to make a mistake, we need to make the mistake of like protecting kids or protecting protecting partners rather than worrying about, like, what I feel different. I've never had a dealing like this. So I don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I brought kids to daycare as you're sort of starting to talk about with injuries. And the first thing I've done is said, here's what happened and they might look at me and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, totally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So, well, thanks for the information and you are allowed to look at me as scans and you're allowed to then keep notes for the next couple of weeks and you're allowed to watch and see how my kid looks, because you're supposed to be protecting them. And if you think there's something funny going on, you absolutely should be collecting data.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

However, but let's I do want to caveat this and that's that the the children especially. And I've done some trainings with this. We have to be careful because people who are trained in questioning children know how to ask children. About injuries and potential harm without leading them because too often when we ask children questions, we lead them unintentionally. And when you, a leading question is like did like did your did your mom do this to you? You know as opposed to what happened here? Yeah. And sometimes people will well meaning folks will.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ask leading questions of child. And I think these questions absolutely need to be asked, but they need to be asked by professionals who know what they're doing and can ask the question correctly. So, so, so we we do that. That's one of the reasons why actually reporting maybe better than than asking the kid you do the report the kid gets interviewed and like, yeah, OK, the professional who's doing the interviewing is going to be much better and accurately providing that interview. Then, then, then a, then, then an untrained person would be this might.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So I think that's a really important caveat. So thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For adding that, yeah, yeah, but I've. I've also brought kids to daycare and gone. Oh, no. You know, these kids fall down and I've got, you know, a bunch of kids, and they fall down. They hit, they they they get a fat lip. They they they they get a bruise over there. Yeah. Nurse maids Elbow is a perfect example of one of those injuries that that can easily happen. That's fairly innocuous but can look bad to the outside observer and look it up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There's made elbow. Your parent, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sometime if you're curious about it.

Host: Michael:

You know, it's interesting hearing you guys talk about it because that was when I read this post, I mean that was the first thing I thought of was that he was making the decision for her. You know, there was number conversation there. Nothing. He just. Nope, that's it. And that was the part that offended me right away. And yet it was missed in almost every one of the comments. It like, online. It just felt like people got wrapped up in. Ohh, that happened to me. Oh, here's the story. Not. Hey, you really shouldn't tell your wife what to do. Like, right, man, you have a conversation about that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So if he wasking, like, if he if he if it was leading up to the event and he wasking am I the asshole for feeling anxious about this, I would say absolutely not. If it's leading up to the event, he's but post hoc saying am I the asshole for not. Letting her go? Absolutely yes.

Host: Michael:

And taking his sister, I mean that is a weird choice also. Like, I don't really understand that either.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Ohh yeah yeah.

Host: Michael:

All right. Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet Forum. So remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, think about Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, I got I got. I got. I got nothing. Alright. Ohh no. Wait, I do. Stay tuned afterwards for our special bonus snippet that we're going to make up on the fly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey.

Host: Michael:

Awesome. Well, please follow and share your test views and the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits like Dan said, for whatever bonus conversation we're going to have. See you there.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

For listening as promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. Dan, I wondered if you would be up for sharing with our listeners a little bit about how we came to name our business. So I wanted to talk about our business for a moment. We are Veritas Psychology Partners and this Veritas Views, but yeah. What do you remember about coming up with the name?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The naming. OK, so we sat around and we're just like firing names back and forth. People often names name their practices after locations. We don't want to do that but. We kind of began centering we began centering around the idea that therapy is around. Finding your own truth, finding the perspective that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Makes the most sense. That's most accurate. We work a lot with people with anxiety. And they don't have accurate thinking. We walk, we, we work a lot with you know we're cognitive therapists, both of us cognitive behavioral therapists. That means that we're starting with the, you know, what is the rational thought? What is the irrational thought and how can we find the truth? Not the happy thought, but the truth to combat the negative thought that a person's having so finding a truth, their top psychology. Partners can you? Is that, does that jive with your recollection, Gayle?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, we tried so many different things on and we didn't necessarily want it to be the, you know, Kessler MacBride show necessarily. And were really centered on the experience that the client would have with us. And this something that we share in common. Is that cognitive approach and really trying to help people develop more accurate thoughts like you said and very tough meaning truth, right. It's just to find your truth. We both have a forensic background. So I think we're a little bit, maybe a little bit nerdy that way. And there's just really just felt like the right word. And so yeah, no, that totally jives with my memory.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, there you go. Excellent.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks for tuning in tuning. Again next week for a whole other am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, hi. I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and my the Robin to my Batman is doctor Dan Kessler, who is joining us here today. Like I mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I will accept that I will accept that decision. I will accept that designation. Great to be here again with a couple of my favorite folks, Gayle and Michael, as we as we piece together, Michael, you always bring us interesting stuff and what I what I like about this is that I frequently start out with a position or a thought immediately and then like. And as we talk about it, like sometimes the Internet convinces me more frequently. Dr. MacBride convinces me that like maybe my tech isn't quite right, and these are fun conversations to have. So Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So you say you come out of the gate with a boom and a pal and a snack and a bam.

Host: Michael:

Again, with the superhero stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You can. You can. Michael, can you fix that in post, right.

Host: Michael:

Welcome both of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow.

Host: Michael:

You for any of the newbies who are like, what did I just stumble upon what we're going to do is I have found a scenario out there on the Internet that somebody has posted and they've asked essentially, who is the asshole here. And that's what doctors, Kessler and MacBride hope to determine today. Also, if you're new, stick around through the end, there's some kind of quirky. In this conversation and this time around, I mean we want to asking the question, so that'll be different, but for now, neither Gale nor Dan have read this. I haven't shared the post with him ahead of time. I haven't told him anything about. So let's go today's post. The headline is nice and short and sweet, which is am I the asshole for not offering an open bar at my wedding? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Again we, we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Boom pal bam.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was joking about fixing that in post earlier, but I'm not so sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, not so much. Come on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, all right, we both automatically automatically said no. But there's probably more. But I'm going to say no.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, I'll read the rest.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here you should read the rest. Please help us. Here otherwise it is the world's shortest podcast. I know people like quick, but this is ridiculous. So you need to help us stretch it out a little.

Host: Michael:

So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, not not.

Host: Michael:

My my fiance and my wedding invites have started arriving along with invites is a few things that we felt we should outline before guests arrived to the reception. We have decided to not include an open bar. I come from an alcoholic heavy family and simply don't feel comfortable being around people. Were drinking heavily instead, my fiance and I have decided to have a drink ticket like service instead. With that service, we've been able to customize how we want alcoholic beverages being handled at our reception. And the venue says this kind of service happens all the time. There it was in fact their suggestion. So I didn't think of this as a big deal with the invitations. Was a card with the expectations one is to expect from the ceremony and the reception. I didn't want to shock people when they arrived. So I figured the cards would be a nice classy heads up for our guests, the drink service. Of the card said, essentially, that alcoholic drinks were limited to two per of age guess. The tickets are non transferable and like other beverages offered would need to be ordered from your seat at your assigned table. Drinks were also to be enjoyed at your assigned table. I've been called a lot of rude things after family, both sides and friends are receiving their cards. My fiancee has as well, but a little less. So the most common thing being bridezilla. But I did have an uncle reach out to me and say that I'm being an asshole for trying to spoil the fun of a wedding reception. The response has been mostly negative and has been from all sides of the family and friends. And now my head is swirling as I try to figure out what to do. So am I an asshole? Because I've set my reception up like this and not offering an open bar instead?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So this is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Interesting. Thank you for reading that I that the original poster was a male and that the female partner was getting fewer comments. But as you ended I'm hearing this as the OP is probably the bride and she's getting more pushback and being called bridezilla, whereas the. Groom's family is not pushing back. And do I? I just feel like I need to have some clarity in my brain that what you got from this as well.

Host: Michael:

That is correct.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. And so bride and groom have collaborated on a set of expectations around alcohol consumption at this event and have imposed a lot of rules, a lot of rigidity around this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The so at the beginning here, as she's describing this and OP is female correct as she's describing it. You know you want to have an open bar at your wedding, have an open bar. You want to only serve beer and wine? Your wedding, serve beer and wine. You want to have a cash bar at your wedding? It's your wedding. You decide. Right. I think people often get wrapped around the axle around. Why aren't they paying for liquor? Why are they paying for liquor? What are they doing? I think any way that you choose to do that at your personal wedding is your damn business. And then she crosses the line. Yeah. And. Well, I think she crosses the line is in trying to tell people what they can do. And that's the that's the that's the problem. There is. It's not, it's not. I choose.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What I remember. I do my wedding, my business. I don't get to necessarily tell you. What do you think, Al?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like. What you said there and I think for me it hits the discussion I often have with clients or on boundaries versus requests. And she I think she's getting some pushback here because there are so many requests attached to this as if they and being presented as if they are boundaries and they're not boundary is we're not, we're not paying for an open bar. We will pay for two drinks per individual of age alcoholic drinks, and that's the boundary. That is what is within the posters control and beyond that it is a request. Perhaps we would request that you stay at your seats to help minimize whatever. Although I do think that's extreme.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Perfectly fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But she is overreaching and seeming overly controlling by sort of demanding or having a rule that guests need to consume that alcoholic beverage at their seats. It's just this is problematic. Overreaching is the best word.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I have for it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think that's a good. I think that's a good word. And I'm uncomfortable with the bridezilla designation. And I do, I mean I I sort of I get her fear. You know we. Talked in the past about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And as I've talked about this in my Therapy Office number of times with this exact fear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we've talked about the, we've talked about, you know, where anxiety we should allow anxiety to guide us and where we should push back against anxiety and, you know, she doesn't want some someone to get drunk and act like an asshole at her wedding. Get that? Who wants that? That's. That would be awful. And given her family, it sounds like that's happened and she doesn't want that to be part of her wedding. I get it. And, and certainly by saying, you know, I think it's totally lit to ship to say words no open bar. There's no cash bar. Everyone's going to get 2 drink tickets, use them as you want. Please consume alcohol in moderation. We really would appreciate that. I am fine with that. You can only drink at your seat. You can only order from the wait staff. You can only the drink tickets are non transferable. Like too much.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely. The invitation had been drink. Can be ordered at your seat from the wait staff. Fine. Because that's OK. Maybe the rule of the of the venue again telling you you have to stay seated. Well, you consume your drink that this is this is now bringing a different level to this party. I mean, the wedding reception is a party and I completely agree with you. Nobody needs to be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's fair. That's fair.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely at a wedding, and bride and grooms don't need to worry about how you're going to handle your alcohol or, you know, Uncle, Uncle Tony. Who's going to get out of hand start throwing fists and, you know, and I hear this, right? I mean, people are like, you know, I got. I got a person designated to the ship, starts going down there calling the. Because that's the kind of family I have, and I get it. And it's unfortunate and we can't not invite Uncle Tony. And I understand that too. But I think you're just setting up this this night for so much tension. Because if Uncle Tony wants to get lit, he's going to. He's going to play game. He's going to bring his own booze. He's going to hide.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It he is going to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Find a way to ruin your. Right, regardless of how many rules that you put into place, so lightening that up a lot of times will allow an evening to go more smoothly because you don't set out those alarm bells ahead of time. I do love that they're trying to give their guests a heads up. I think they just put two new rules and flows.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, no, we're. We're we're on the same page here. And I've certainly talked to people who loved like, yeah, they only serve whatever at the wedding. And I knew they could do it. So I brought a flask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't bring a flask to it. Don't do it unless it's like a family thing that people do and every wedding handled things differently. I've been to weddings where there was no alcohol served or a cash bar. I've been to weddings where, like, I went to wedding recently, where there was at a winery. So there was wine. Great. Wonderful, perfect. And. But I've also been to weddings. There was massive amounts of alcohol and everything. I'm sorry I'm prattling on here. I just think that like the bride and groom, get to choose how they serve the alcohol, but there also need to be some reasonable guardrails around not telling people what they can and can't do with their with their for themselves. Like that's their choice. You can kick them out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And for next one night is not going to create sobriety or healthy alcohol use in another individual. So you know at that point you leave that you make sure that people have ubers or you leave the taxi number and you make sure people are safe leaving your venue because that's becomes what you're responsible for. I mean, not the other piece of this right is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know as the server. That you have a responsibility to make sure people aren't over served and then leave and do something tragic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And I I get, I totally get her anxiety. But, you know, one of the things that we know fails is telling someone who has an alcohol problem what they can and can't do. Like that's we're not going to make someone who has an alcohol problem not drink. We want to give them the conditions possible to help them. We want to give them they want to we want to to minimize. The probabilities, but we can't be controlling about it too. They could have chose not. They could choose not to sort alcohol. That's actually a totally legitimate choice. We decided to have a. Dry wedding. OK, you could do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, or only champagne, only champagne at the toast. You going to come around? We're going to give you 1 glass cider for the kids.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Like that's, that's a legitimate choice because it's the difference there is if I choose not to serve alcohol at my wedding, I'm choosing to not serve alcohol at my wedding. I'm not telling you what you can and can't do, and I think there's. There's again, we often talk about this issue of and I love the way you framed it. It is a boundary is something I set for me and what I will accept the boundary is not something I set for you. You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Had a better way of saying it than that, though. Yeah, no, a request is is something that I right I can make of you. I request that you don't overindulge in alcohol. Right. But the boundary is within my control.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right now, if you're drunk at my wedding and you're being a dick, then I'm going to invite you to leave, or I'm going to have someone designated. Probably to invite you to leave. You being a dick, you know? Certainly. That's fine. That's entirely appropriate. Yeah. I don't want. I don't want to call her bridezilla. I think in her, in her zeal to avoid potential problems.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The wedding she potentially created a problem that's really unfortunate and could have been avoided with a with a more respectful way of putting things the person its own. Really as you say, angle Tony is going to plans on getting hammered at the wedding. Uncle Tony's going to get hammered the wedding, regardless of what guardrails you try to set up. Let's be reasonable about it, Michael. What the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

Gayle. Ohh wait. Gayle, do you agree? Are you totally on board with Dan's official ruling?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought. Gaudi.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, is that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think Dan said it really well. I think we're on the same page. I think it's this is. I don't think she needs to be called broad bridezilla. I generally don't like that term. I it's really sexist because I don't. Well, I think we know that in this case they'll call problem runs in the in the groom's family, but it may be the groom going. Look, I don't, uncle Tony. Getting locked up at our wedding. Right. And so it may be the groom that's imposing this and we don't use the term groomzilla.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, really sexist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So anyway, that's on the side. I do. I do agree with Dan. I think this is again I go back to the word overreaching. I understand the fear and we've talked a number of times about the anxiety that is created in any given situation and how you act and service to that and create a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it's not necessarily reflective of the real scenario here, but I do I do find it problematic how she tried to assuage her anxiety and to calm it. And I think we'll do nothing but actually create more angst, not just in the family feedback, but in the day of, because now she's in a position to be monitoring.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it sounds like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or he, you know, are both of them are in a position to be monitoring everyone's alcohol use. Are they following the rules? And that's just going to suck the joy out of their day so quickly?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm not willing to call her an asshole, but I really like your word there. This is an overreach. No, I think it comes from a from a good from a place of anxiety and from a place of worry. And it's an overreach. But I'm not. I don't even know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What? She sucks. I just over. The only word I have for her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just not willing to call her an asshole. But, Michael, what the Internet say about her?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, by the way, would be coming by the table and grabbing. Nope, that's your third drink and you got that tick drink ticket from Aunt Martha. That's mine. I'm pocket like that's asshole.

Host: Michael:

I hearing you guys talk about I mean what it sounds what it seems like to me is sometimes I fall down these like oh, this plan will work perfect. It'll be like this and that and blah blah. And like I really need someone to like workshop that idea with it. Which is why Gayle is such a wonderful partner that way because she's often. Like you know, maybe there's a better way. And so the Internet kind of echoed that of like, there are lots of better ways here. You could have a dry wedding. You could. You know, that seemed like that was the universal like, why don't you just not have alcohol or have it at the champagne toast like you had mentioned. But I'll say at the. End of the. Day. Almost everybody on the Internet called her an asshole because of the. Overreach because of the rules. There are a couple that I captured the post because they're kind of funny. Your ticket plan went from moderately novel to aggressively controlling the more you explained it. Are you going to have a security guard tackle Aunt Joan, if she gets out of her chair with a glass of Chard in her hand? Weird wedding, better control the food intake too. You don't want your obese family member to get too much food. Your title is misleading. It's OK to have an open, not to have an open bar at the wedding, but these kind of restrictions are insane, and the only people that called her not an asshole were people who identified as Alcoholics, which were kind of interesting. They all said your system for control is never going to work. I'm an alcoholic. I would bring my own flask. I would drink beforehand, you know, the things that you hope to avoid. Unfortunately, my disease is going to cause me to undermine and in ways that you'll never anticipate or predict.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Host: Michael:

So you know, go with the with the two ticket system go with the dry system, but don't try to tell me where I can and can't drink or anything. There's ways around everything that you're trying to put forward and the more rules the harder will fight against it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really like that self identified Alcoholics response. That’s a really great response.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet as we find out things aren't just black or white, they're often more in the Gray.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I'll go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With truth is stranger than fiction, and this is so strange.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this was an interesting one. Sure. Thanks so much for. Bringing this on forward and I always take around for the bonus conversation like follow there.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah, I'll. I'll do it for you, Dan. Please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as Dan already said, stick around for the bonus conversation this time. It's going to be about food. I'll see you on the other side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's the bonus conversation. So one of the things we are kind of talking about were quick things that you can do in. The kitchen we all love. Food, Dan, we've come over to your house and we've thoroughly enjoyed food at your house. And it's always kind of fun to see what kind of things you put forward, but I'm wondering and I'll ask Gayle this as well. You know, what are some things that you can put together at a moments notice like you're like, oh shit, I don't have a dinner plan. What's your go to dish that you could make?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, me first.

Host: Michael:

You first.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Little rice in a rice cooker cut up some tofu throw cut up some broccoli. Roast both of those things. Gochujang, which I have like an enormous supply of this stuff. Sesame oil, soy sauce, sugar boom. Amazing dinner. You have to wait for the rice to finish cooking. But the entire thing is like 5 minutes of preparation. Yeah, that's my go to meal. Ohh little peanuts. Some peanuts on sprinkled on top. That's my go to meal. I make that meal, I make that meal once a week.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Alright, it won't be going to dance for dinner.

Host: Michael:

And do you think the rice cooker is worth it? Because I don't believe we own a rice, I guess actually appreciate personally as a rice cooker, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. Rinse the rice a few times, throw it in the rice cooker, push a button, walk away. It comes out perfectly. I'm 100% behind the rice cooker. Use mine a few times a week.

Host: Michael:

Awesome. And Gayle, I should know this, but what is your go to?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, you absolutely know this, and I would say it's not as fast as dance. But really, when you shop these days, you can get some pre chopped vegetables. And so if we go that route and we open these bags of pre chopped vegetables. I always throw onion on there, on the sheet pan, throw it in the oven, roast the vegetables and I always have pesto on hand. And so Dan, I actually probably lifted this from your book. You would put pasta with it, but honestly, I threw garbanzo beans in and it's roasted vegetables, garbanzo beans and pesto. Sometimes, if I'm feeling really sassy, I'll put a soft cooked eggs on top. Like like a fried egg, but just where the yolk isn't set. Yeah, that’s dinner for me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go, 2 dinners under 10 minutes each. I think in prep time. Although this is a great time for both. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, there is. There is some, quite frankly, if you've got to pre chop the vegetables and you know maybe that goes out the window. But I think there are some ways to do it really efficiently and you know both of these are really nutritious and. Michael and I were having a conversation the other day where they talked about cuz you've identified as vegan. I used to say I'm flexitarian and I still will say that, but there was a there was a phrase that I sort of liked, which is having a diet accented with meat. So rather than being meat forward, it was sort of excellent with meat and so this is one of those vegetarian dishes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fully down.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in TuneIn again next week for another exciting am I the asshole to beat.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In the episode, Dr. MacBride and Dr. Kessler reference the VPP Gottman handout, here's a link to that.


Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Mike MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I don't know what to say other than I am joined by one of the finest psychologists I've ever had the privilege to work with, Doctor Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was going to say that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Noah, that I was one of. The finest psychologists I've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Had to work with. Sorry. I'm the second best in the office. I get it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, no, I usually, I often tell people when referring them to you, cuz we do a lot of cross referral in our business not because we're trying to drum up business within the practice per say. But if you come in for individual therapy and then you need couples therapy or you come in for couples therapy and then you need individual. Therapy, one of the great things that a group practice is those practitioners have an easy opportunity to have conversations that will help bolster the bolster, therapeutic process. And so we do refer to one another. And sometimes people refer to us because they know that one person needs individual, and the couple also to be seen. They know that we'll have that advantage. And I usually tell people that she's like 15% to 20% better than me is what I typically tell people in all seriousness. And I think it's just because you're more organized and planful than I am.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So it's it's a good it's a good business to be in together. So there you go. There's our like I think. My business partner is terrific that we often start out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

With so the mutual admiration club.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, let's move on from that. And Michael, you've got something for us this week, don't you?

Host: Michael:

I do. As always, I find something interesting for you and for anyone who's new to us out there. If you don't know what Amy of asshole is, in short, someone's going to post a scenario which I've gone out there and I found. And they've asked the reader who is the asshole here. And that's what hopefully Doctor Kessler and Dr. MacBride will help us to. German.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm going to jump in right here. I'm going to jump in right here for a second. I just realized something. This entire podcast was designed to give Michael plausible deniability for sitting around, surfing the Internet or surfing social media cuz you can always say, well, I'm doing research, honey. So this entire podcast was designed so that Michael, I don't think I'm disclosing.

Host: Michael:

Also.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Anything we don't want to close Gayle and Michael MacBride are are are married partners of each other. And I think this entire thing was designed so Michael could say I'm just in research, what do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Al. You know, I think there's probably some Paracas in that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, well done. Well done, there's some.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, I know. Right, see the only. Conversation that that's linked to.

Host: Michael:

Michael, please continue. Now that I have now that I have cast aspersions on you and I would say life is research as well, right? Like you acquire knowledge and information anyway. So also if you're new and you've stuck this far, you should know that at the very.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, well.

Host: Michael:

And of the after the credits, we also have a bonus conversation, which is often kind of fun as well. But anyway, for right now Gayle or Dan have not seen this. I haven't let them. Haven't tipped my hat to what we're going to talk about. I always like to see what happens when we give it to them cold. So today's headline.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There it's called like a good gazpacho.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Put that on a T-shirt. There's no such thing. As good as Pacho.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do agree with you. I don't really like the spot show, but all of a sudden, the moment that hit me, sorry. Guys.

Host: Michael:

Continue, please. All right, the headline this time is. Am I the asshole for not retaking the family photo? Since my daughter-in-law was not in it and no. OK, you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Got.

Host: Michael:

I mean, if you're new. I mean, sometimes they're really short.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Chances. They'll let the daughter-in-law to not be there, but this is going to be a really interesting conversation. And the other Doctor MacBride on this call knows why. So please continue.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. Ohh there's there's something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan collected this, I think for a reason.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's something personal here.

Host: Michael:

Every, every couple of years, we get everyone together and do a giant family portrait. It's about 40 people. Our last one was in 2018 and we we decided to do this again. I organized the whole thing and everyone was told that small pictures will be done at four and the big picture is seen by small pictures. They just mean like the smaller.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Individual family group, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Families. So the bigger picture is at 5 afterwards. We get dinner this year. Is that my son and daughter-in-law were running late. It wasn't a big deal since it was just the small pictures they get here in time for the large picture. I asked everyone to be there on time. I called twice. If anyone is missing, everybody lined up and the photographer takes like 15 minutes of the big picture. Everyone is hungry and hurrying to get food. My daughter-in-law soon comes out. Asking about the picture, it is around 5:30. At this point, she told me she was in the bathroom fixing her hair. When the picture was taken, she asked me to round everybody up again to take the picture. I told her no, that she was late coming to the event and couldn't care enough to be actually on time for the photo. I'm not gathering everyone up again and paying the photographer an extra hour.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Can you be nicer about it? OK, I mean, like, we're just going to jump.

Host: Michael:

You're leaning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Into the asshole. You gotta give it time. No, he was he was doing fine up until there. Holy. Come on. Like sorry. No, no, please.

Host: Michael:

And then sometimes it's those subtle. I mean, in this case, not subtle at all. But like, sometimes you got to think about those word choices for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please, please continue. Absolutely.

Host: Michael:

Anyway, I'm not going to pay the photographer another hour. He was done and packed up at this. Right, this caused a huge argument between her and me. My son is demanding I get her in the picture and I told him to pay someone else to Photoshop her in. Am I the asshole?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh wow. Yeah. I mean, we both have jumped on the fact that it's not the content of the disagreement, it's the process. How you present that, your dissent matters, how you how you respond to this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. So often so and that is what we jumped on like our like as Michael's talking it's like no that's a pretty I mean photographers packed up, we paid for an hour you were not there we asked for you be there all of that like you're not an asshole. No, and then he throws in the like the what was that? There was something. You know what's interesting about this scale? I don't remember the words, but I totally but I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. But you always. Remember how you feel when someone speaks to you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I totally remember the tone of the words and the emotional response I had, and that's absolutely right. This is this is what causes so many arguments with couples. So many arguments with friends or family members. I only said this, but the tone and the emotion carried in that is what they're is what the person's responding to, not the words. Go ahead, Gayle. I'm. Sorry, I talked to him.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, no, just that. Like we don't remember verbatim. This is why I witnessed testimony is so problematic and why we see this show up as a common point of dissension and disagreement and couples work that we do. Is. I didn't say that. However, what is often missing is this is how I felt when I heard it, and maybe I can't regurgitate the words precisely, but I know how your words made me feel and we need to think about that really carefully when we communicate. And I do think very often. It's a stereotype for a reason. In law, daughter-in-law. You said he. I actually think this is a mother-in-law. I don't know if we have gender confirmation or if it matters, but this parent in law, daughter-in-law dynamic can be difficult and dicey at times. And so I think. It is probably wisest to proceed with direct and caring feedback, but being very thoughtful about how you coach this right because of that, that in law relationship Michael has handled second grade.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael's raising his hand, Michael.

Host: Michael:

I was just going to say the thing that made everybody cringe, myself included, as I was reading it, was she was late coming to the event and couldn't care enough to actually be on time for the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fair enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Photograph was that way. Yes.

Host: Michael:

That's fair enough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They've now offered the daughter-in-law an accusation. And we assume. That we know her, her mind set that she couldn't care enough. Clearly she cared enough. She wanted to do her hair. She wanted to look nice. What she failed to do well is be on time and fit those activities within the required time frame. I need you to be here by 5:00 for the big group picture.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so we've we've hit upon one really important interpersonal issue here that the you know people remember how you make them feel more than they remember the words you use and we'll hit upon a second one. Now assume positive intent like this, this parent in law, whoever it is assumed she couldn't be bothered to be here on time. What a negative. What a harsh negative assumption. Yeah, go ahead and jump. Jump in here. I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, well, I mean, it did this. This parenting law is riding the four Horsemen, just like rush out through this family event, right? I mean, that's one for me. This is not out to the government. Yep. Absolutely. It's the place where we start. I think when we work with couples very often, or at least I do, is let me introduce you to the four horsemen. There are a number of animals.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Shout out the Gottman. Where's my? My God.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So we talk about in therapy and the poorest when we start with because they really have, once you start catching them. And identifying them and inserting the antidotes, you start having more gentle, more productive conversation almost immediately. It's one of the highest yield kind of educational things that we can offer couples. And so in this parents and law communication, we have criticism and contempt and criticism and contempt often ride together. And often then you get a response of defensiveness. So now we've got three of the four we're just missing stonewalling, which I can see the daughter flipping that beautifully. Or daughter-in-law flipping that beauty. Really done here and walking away and going fine. I'm not doing this. I'm not talking. To you and Dan, you've got 4.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Right. We right we will put when I say we, I mean Michael we will put in in the show notes a link to our own handout on Gottman’s Four Horsemen. I, like I said, I said I said Michael, just writing down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Horsemen right there. And to be clear, we always nod to the Gottmans because they are the ones who developed this information. We have distilled it and used it over time and added our own examples. Absolutely credit where credit is due. This is historically gotten gotten.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

John, John and John and Julie Gottman have have done, or Julie and John Gottman have done a terrific job of of, of putting that together. And we we yeah, we we riff off it a bit. But those two like assuming positive intent here using soft startups instead of harsh. Having having a positive words like like, yeah, you know, I could totally see the situation where the parent in law is like, gosh, I am so sorry that we can't include you. The photographer is done for the day. We can't call everyone back. They've started eating. The kids have. Fuck, shut all up the food all over their faces. The parents have this. There's a thing over there. The photographers packed up like I can completely see how a a gentle like I am. So sorry. We can't include you here, but it just. It was impossible, would not have caused the fight. It wouldn't have been any different and we would be saying you're not the asshole for sure you're not the asshole. Because of that harshness and that negative assumption, that's what created the fight. That's the person. That's what this person is missing when they post it. It wasn't. It wasn't. It's not. Am I the asshole for not including my daughter-in-law. It's am I the asshole for being mean to her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I disagree a little bit with you in the sense of I don't, I don't think we know that that's the totality of the daughter in laws either.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

About it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Surely it is some significant portion, but I also think that sometimes in laws feel again that tenuousness in the relationship and am Important enough to include in your photo? Am I the one being not included? And because these photos are taken not just for your immediate family, but to share with the family at large? And feeling excluded is a really hard emotion to deal with, and so it may just simply be not only that she received the message in a harsh way, but essentially then isn't going to get the outcome, which is I'm going to be represented in this photo in any way, shape or form. Again, I think she did some things to stack that deck against her and that's difficult, but. She may still feel upset and angry to not have a photo of her included.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, sure. Then there may, and there may certainly be that history. And I can. I and I I'm I'm trying to like get in her shoes for a moment. Imagine like she's going ohh this picture is. Important we haven't done one in six years now. I'm really looking forward to this. I want to just right her making herself up and like. The phone goes you. Know on the counter and she's like, I wonder, like I'm not paying attention. My phone. I gotta get ready. Gotta be prepared for this. They're just doing the individual clothes. I want to get ready. They're like, coming outside, like, all excited. I'm getting this picture. And then everyone's, like, chowing down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ribs. I had ribs in my hand too, like ribs and in my head. They're having. They're having ribs and corn on the cob and potato salad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Garbrandt and going to come Matthew clock.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the kids already have, like, smears.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Chocolate ice cream.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And BBQ sauce on them and. Exactly. Exactly. So, like and then like, you know, they're they're they're they're that's that's the image I get and her like. But call everyone back. Hold him. Back. Really like like I I I get it Michael's got it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Michael, like I appreciate you calling on me. I'm the only one in the classroom, but thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yet the four recommended items.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Our classroom is lopsided. Two teachers and one pupil.

Host: Michael:

So we're we're not quite to the part where we talk about the Internet says, but two questions were brought up that were kind of interesting that I wanted to make sure that you guys had a chance to chat about. One was why didn't her son say anything, the husband to the daughter-in-law clearly knew she wasn't there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Thank you. Yeah, I had to load into reading it and I wanted to circle back, super mentioning it. He should have.

Host: Michael:

And that is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I didn't and the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Looked up for.

Host: Michael:

Her and the poster did come back and say I don't know that that was one of the few things that she clarified is I don't know, and it does seem like it was a mother who is the poster since you had mentioned that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, OK alright.

Host: Michael:

The other one was people mentioning that it sounds like potentially their relationship between the mother and daughter-in-law has issues. In the past. This probably isn't the first thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is not the first disagreement and the nor the first time this daughter-in-law feels probably dissed and unimportant to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and that could certainly that could certainly play into this quite a bit. And I get I get absolutely see if there is that if there is that history that's creating a little bit more of that conflict.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We we don't know. We're always judging these in a vacuum, which is why we try to, like, disclaim the hell out of things. Like, we're not making judgments based on a whole lot of knowledge here. We're making justice on judgments on what the person chooses to say and what the Internet asks them. And then they clarify, which in this case, it sounds like not much. So I do want to see, I would. I would like to sit down and go. What is your history year that might have led to this particular set of decisions? I also think there's so many opportunities for them to have been nice to each other in this situation and apologetic and. And you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So let's go back though, because Michael brings up or reminds us of an important point. Here is the daughter-in-law was the only one missing, and so nobody went. Hey, and I'm going to make up a name. Where's Sarah? Where is she? Is she here? Right, or the OR her husband, in this case, going. Wait, my wife's not here. Like, where is the advocacy for this woman? To say you know what, she's going to be 15 more minutes getting her hair done, because then we could have maybe even prevented the problem and maybe the outcome would have been the same. I mean, maybe it's Nope, we got the photo until 5:30 and we gotta get going. If there's not hearing her. It's not done too bad, but I don't like that happen. Nobody stuck up for her while she was not present and that really was ideally her husband's job to say, hey, my partner is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not here. That's fair. That's that's that's that's that's that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And there's job to be there on time I've deemed or.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's really fair. Sarah, I don't know why no, that is, that is really fair. I'm. I'm going to. I'm going to. I'm going to run with with, with, with, with the, with the Sarah naming here and say. Yeah, it seems quite reasonable to say for someone. Again, I, I and I, I would also nominate her. Her her husband to to say, hey, Sarah's not here. Can we please track her down so that she can be in this picture? Because I really don't want her to be excluded from this picture and that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Well, this picture is not complete without.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Her right. That's powerfully unfortunate that that, that no one did that. And I agree. I want to look into. I want. To know more about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That right, and I think it's strange stranger still because typically in these kinds of photos, you stand near your spouse so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A number of these pictures you absolutely do. You're like, OK, you, you, you move over here. And can you. You stand out. Hey Susan, go stand next to go stand next to Jimmy over there like and. And then Susan goes over and stands next to Jim cuz no one calls him Jimmy except for the people have known him since he was a little kid and he gets a little annoyed. Like why are you calling me Jimmy? I've been Jim since I was 12 and I'm a 40.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

43 year old grown ass man. Thank you very much. But they go, hey, go stand next to Jimmy and Susan, like, rolls her eyes a little bit and go stand next stands next to her husband Jim. And where is Jim in this? And where is everyone going? Hey, Susan's not here to stand. Next.

Host: Michael:

To Jimmy, maybe one of those things of home alone, right? Although less chaos. Because there's only there's no, there's not multiple vehicles. And so, I would nominate, said Jim. I would. I was with Kevin maybe as a, as a name for the husband here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And the neighbor didn't take him back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, I wanted to be able to riff on the Jimmy Jim. Thing so Kevin doesn't work. Sorry.

Host: Michael:

Gotcha. Gotcha. And as I mean, part of my family gathers and does a very large photo every year and this is and I put in. No, no, it's there's only 40 people here. So it's not. You're losing that many.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is this our bonus conversation? Ohh no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There's only 40 because wait. Well, like Michael, we need to give some context here in the big family photo, and it's a big family photo. It's 80 to 100 of your closest family family members in a photo organized, sometimes in matching. T-shirts. For a moment in time, but it is scheduled and you show up. And quite frankly, if you're not there, you don't know, because in this particular photo this is one time where you don't necessarily get next to your spouse, you just get a seat because otherwise it's too big and it's too much chaos. But in a forty person, you absolutely find your spouse. You make sure your kids are present and you smile for the camera and you get her done. And we've done this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, no, that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Before they've done this. Shit show before. This is not a new rodeo for this family. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

It might be a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

New rodeo for the daughter-in-law. I mean, that's one thing we don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, she felt like she was. And she had been in it before. It was a really important part. To do it again, I thought.

Host: Michael:

I have to have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

New daughter-in-law, right? She's not the new daughter-in-law. I rolling back to the can. We should we answer the question now? Sure. Yeah. So not the asshole for not including her. But totally the asshole for making negative assumptions. Being harsh with her and unkind when you had an opportunity to be sympathetic and caring totally. So the original question is. Am I the asshole for not calling ever? The back? No, but that's the wrong question. I, but she's totally the asshole for the way in which she presented her response. And the way she made her daughter-in-law. Feel OK, what do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I absolutely agree with a small addition. So I think again, the original question is, am I the alcohol for not for not calling everybody back? Nope, you're paying by the hour and maybe there was a point at which we negotiate with the photographer, but that Dimes on you. Something too big a conversation in that chair. That moment I think you are an asshole for how you presented this and I sort of imagine this unfortunate world where the chaos of the photos and the group photo and the dinner and all of that left you justifying the bad behavior. I was overwhelmed and stressed and I snapped. But that's not OK. Not it. It may be the reason it happened, but it is not an excuse, right and it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. All right, Michael, with the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

It's it's another very interesting one to me because it was very universally you're not the asshole. And a lot of people missed the nuances that you guys picked up on which I, which I always appreciate you guys.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's where psychology. Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know to say we are trained at. This we we are.

Host: Michael:

And don't say sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We are trained professionals at nuances like, but here's like honestly like this is the sort of thing that comes to us and we we make light of this right now. But this is the sort of issue that comes to us all the time.

Host: Michael:

One of the things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

People get caught. On the wrong question, am I the asshole for this? No. But the way you reacted made that person feel. Terrible. And the way I just remember the, I'm just going to talk about myself here again. So, like, early on, I totally forgot the word she said. But I remembered the emotional response and. And, you know, Gayle, you called that out so nicely in talking about the way we respond to people. This is the new ones that people miss when they're having relationship. Struggles.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sorry, Michael, please. Continue.

Host: Michael:

OK, it was interesting. The number of photographers that weighed in as on comments here that they all said this is 100% on the daughter-in-law she knew when and what was happening wasn't there. This is exactly what I tell my clients all the time. Usually wedding clients during family formals someone is missing then that is on them. They were told where to be. I only have so much time and there's only so much coordination I can handle. There were a number of people who weighed in saying like somebody used to do the family photos. Now I do it and this is a nightmare. Every year somebody. Frequently gets. Left out or something happens and we always try to redo these and it is a mess and there's a lack of gratitude for the work that goes into organizing. And so I think your point is a good one about the and this case. The mother-in-law or the son's mother. However, I think about her probably feeling stressed and. Worn and unappreciated in the situation for having paid for the photographer and organizing this and all this stuff, the one kind of outlier got voted down an awful lot, but they still had four positive votes, so they're still they're still above water, and this was the one I probably most closely related to, which was. Everybody sucks here. How did your son not realize his wife was missing and why didn't he speak up? It's still the daughter in law's responsibility to not fix her hair for 15 minutes straight when they're already late. I don't know the history between you and your daughter-in-law, but the first reason you used was because you decided she didn't care to be there. Everybody sucks here. I'm sorry. You all need to do some work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, I think I think I'm going to go. I think I'm going to go with the with, with downvoted guys response. I think it's perfect I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That response? Yeah, it it really nailed all of the elements that we've been talking about and really put responsibility in the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's absolutely perfect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right court here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, that's a perfect response. Everyone sucks here except the photographer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Exactly. I mean, I love it. I had a I had a thought as we as my goal was reading through that, and so I just want to roll back a moment. The nightmare that is being the photographer and our.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, no, you you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Our intro, outro, voice over talent, her. She's a family member for us and her mother. For years. When I joined the family was that person who coordinated 16 different cameras to take this massive picture of this family. And I remember the year she was like, you know what, I'm just done. It's too stressful. And so, Cory, for all of the. Family photos that you took for all of. Those years, I. Just want to say shout out and say thank you.

Host: Michael:

Absolutely. And they'll say I have not been in all those family photos, despite the fact that I was there. I mean, sometimes I was young and stupid and wandering off, and other times I was a teenager and angsty and didn't want to be part of it. And sometimes you just missed it because you're a parent and you're busy with your kid. And oops, sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And that's just the reality of what happens. You can't be in every photo all the time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And every year, there's someone running across the grass and like sliding into home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I really I do. I really like that everyone sucks here response. I think that's I think that's the perfect response to this and for all the reasons cited. So shout out to downvoted guy for getting for getting it right. Even though the Internet shit on him for getting it right. Wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank. You both again for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet. Terms remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, I often make a comment about how truth is stranger than fiction, but this isn't strange. This is really common, and we've all experienced some version of this. This is just a human place to be, and let's just be kind to each other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's beautifully said. Really really this is, and I often comment about this like so many of our interpersonal conflicts could be resolved by a really nice conversation and a caring conversation. And this is an opportunity, miss to solve number there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And now stick around for our bonus conversation. Or is that the thing Michael's supposed to say? I never remember these things.

Host: Michael:

Please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms with neighbors and friends. And like Dan said, stick around for that bonus conversation. I'm not sure what will be, but see you on the other side of the credits and we'll find out.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised here is that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So my I've got a crutch in therapy. I have a beverage in my hand at all times. It's usually a cup of coffee up until a certain time of day, and then it's one. But I like during the pandemic. I like when we were doing therapy with masks on. Like I couldn't take it down it, and I found myself like, agitated all the time that he didn't have this crutch of being able to reach out and pause and think thought. Why? Said my copy Gayle, do you have a crutch like that? Something that you like, have that you feel like the need that's extraneous to the moment that you feel the need to have with you during therapy?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Session like Nope, that was a great question I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Which is, by the way, how people answer when they. Have no clue as to what to say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Am I maybe vamping for a little bit of time?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think it might be damn thing. I'm just wondering like is there something that you feel the need to have present in order to do a good job even though it's? Not technically necessary for therapy. No, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think for. Me, I tend to be one of those listeners that wants to be doing something while I listen. So I tell people I listen a little better with my hands, right? So I like, I've got an acupressure ring that I might fidget with or something like that. I tend to do it more on camera than in front of people because I think people might. And that to be distracting and rude. So I do have a mug that I will sometimes hold. So that's obviously that's got kind of a mindful path on it. And I might I might kind of just trace that as I'm listening to. Someone, but not to do therapy. Better. Honestly. Sometimes my beverage or something else is more as I think it's treat it more like a prompt is not to give me time to think so much as to create a moment of emphasis where I might just. Vamp up and play up a moment of taking, taking a sip of something and then looking at scance at something just because people read those numbers. Sprite and internalize it and it allows me to kind of exaggerate a reaction. I'm not one of those therapists that tries to do this absolute blank slate. I have no reaction. I think I started to try to do that in Graduate School and I had a wonderful mentor who basically said you are a human in the room. You have emotions and you have reactions. Go ahead and allow those to be present as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. They and it's funny because at least back when I was in grad school as well. And I went to grad school in the early 90s, that was still sort of the, the, the, the, the formula or the recommendation like, don't. Show yourself the Tabula rasa. Be a blank slate for your client, and that's part of the old Freudian kind of projection and such. But I have this transference and I have to say that like I was never very good at that either. Yeah. And I think that one of the complaints that I sometimes hear, like when people talk about, like, I never knew what my last therapist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thinking I never know what was going on, like they didn't give me enough. Feedback and the Gayle, you and I both are those therapists who are are are happy to give our feedback, not a judgmental manner, but like also not to mask who we are as people because that matters people people choose a therapist because of that comfort level.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I mean, I think people, people have said I, you know, I feel like you're really real and they appreciate having a conversation with someone where they get something back. There's some bounce back there as opposed to, you know, if you hit a dead ball into a wall and goes and it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just drops, right? They're they're often not looking for that. So I think that humanity and. My willingness to be who I am coming through in the room is honestly one of my. Greatest strengths so I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think give you a great answer. I guess I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't know. No, that's perfect. Wonderful. Thank you. There you go. All right.

Host: Michael:

Anthony freckleton. Yeah. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. TuneIn again next year next year. Wow. Here. Wow.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're not taking medically yet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're going on hiatus, no?

Host: Michael:

Next week this is. A weekly podcast, not an annual one. That'd be weird.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Got it. So that would be very boring.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And then next. Week for another am I the asshole debate?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In the episode, Dan references this article on Parade Magazine about children who move during their childhood.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride and I am joined by my partner, Doctor Daniel Kessler. I'm excited to have this conversation with you again today these. Are fun.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And as I've been introduced, I'm, I'm back Kessler, a clinical clinical. Ologist and part of the practice of Veritas psychology partners with Doctor MacBride. And this is like the highlight of my week in many ways, sitting down and answering Michael's question about who's the asshole. So, Michael, what interesting thing do you have for us today?

Host: Michael:

For sure. Well, welcome both of you and. And this is definitely my highlights as well. I love being able to put you on the spot and see what you come up with and you always have. A delightful feedback. So for anybody who's new out there is new out there and if you don't know what a my asshole is, in short, someone on the Internet posts this scenario and ask readers. Who's the asshole? Here, and that's what we're going to help determine. Now we have DE identified the posts. So they're a little more vague and we just tried to be a little more discrete. So also if you're new, you should know stick around through the end after the credits, we always have a bonus conversation and those are. Kind of fun. So, but right now, neither Gayle or Dan. Have seen or read this? Just before and. So let's go. This one kind of made me laugh. But anyway, and like some of the other ones, I feel like even though this is a hyper specific situation, I like how it applies to other topics. So anyway, the ad line is, am I the asshole for refusing to give a doughnut to a kid at? A party? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Host: Michael:

Controversy. Excellent. So the rest of the post is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe go ahead. Yeah, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Did you say? I would not give Michelle Child a Donna without her permit. I would be an asshole if I fed her child a. Donut without her permission. Am I wrong?

Host: Michael:

I would always ask, but you'll see this scenario.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're not. You're not, you're not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're not? No, you're you're not. You're not wrong, but there's. I think there's more to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It than that there probably is. You tend to tend to be a little bit longer than just the headline.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We should, we should hear the rest of it, because I'm thinking if the mom, if the, if, the if the mom and mom and or dad is OK with it, then yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You are. We should probably get that detail.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Let's hear the story. Michael, please take us. Take it away.

Host: Michael:

Sure. So it says. I can't believe I'm posting this here, but here we are. I have a mixed group of friends and some are saying I was wrong. So I decided to let you decide. My husband I were invited to a birthday party. We asked if we could bring anything, and the host said not needed, but we could if we wanted to. Since I don't like showing up empty handed, I thought it'd be nice to purchase some bouquet boutique doughnuts. Sorry a little different than a bouquet boutique doughnut for my artisanal doughnut shop near us. We got a bunch of doughnuts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's going to.

Host: Michael:

And one gluten free donut for my husband who can't have gluten side note at no one at the party has any gluten issue. We knew these people very well, we. Got to the. Party set the donut down and immediately this kid and his mom decided to come over because in her words, these are the best Donuts in town. Wow. Thanks for bringing them. They're very appreciative. I open up the box and immediately the kid throws his hands on the gluten free one. I kindly say sorry. I'm saving that for my husband.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

You can't have gluten. I picked the doughnut out and set it aside and proceed to tell him all the other wonderful flavors and options that he has available. Cookies and cream. Nutella doughnuts galore. The kid immediately starts crying because he wants to. And his mom starts ripping into me and yelling at me for not just giving him the doughnut. She proceeds to make a big scene about it. An argument ensues about how he wouldn't give him the gluten free doughnut. So the question is, am I the asshole for holding back the gluten free doughnut from the child? No episode over? No. OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So wow, this is this is really sticky. No pun intended, I guess from the doughnut, but I have really sort of mixed thoughts here. I mean one is this is a grown ass man who doesn't probably need a doughnut. We could have come up with lots of other other ways to handle this. The straight up no for the. Child. And yet I'm a big believer in children need to be told no sometimes and as a parent we help hold those lines. So I have lots of conflicted thoughts. You don't, Dan, you seem very. Tell me about yourself.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not. I'm not conflicted at all. Well, let me ask. I'm going to ask a question that no matter what you answer, it's not going to change my position. I don't think. But how old is the child here? We don't know. Do we know how the child is Michael?

Host: Michael:

Sorry I'm I'm looking. I was reading through the comments.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But you know. I'm asking the question, but actually I don't know that I care how the child is because I agree with what you're saying, Gayle. Kids, it it's OK to say no to kids once in a while. And in fact they they they need to know and if and if someone has a specific, even if it's the two year old is not going to grasp the reasoning.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or it like it was it and my father is O2 year old. Not going to understand. But still like we can say. You know, and if there's something that was purchased for someone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

asshole. When they're given no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If someone yes. And if someone is is has a gluten allergy or a religious prohibition around eating a specific food or whatever. Like if he just likes chocolate, it was the last chocolate like suck it up. Let the kid have the chocolate. But this is a specific purchase made. I'm just, I'm just. I'm not. I'm having a hard time seeing seeing it both ways. Gayle help me understand where you think I'm wrong so that I can shoot. That down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I because we're adults, we have the ability to, well, most of us we have the ability to inhibit our need to gratify immediately, like none of us needs a donut. So are we dying on a hill of a doughnut? Like to some extent. I mean, what I'd love here is that this this wife is holding firm on something that is a need for her husband. This gluten allergy she's holding. Term, I would in my massage facts of the world the husband comes in and says don't worry about it. Like you know, no big deal and then she would maybe loosen up. I think if it were her donut ideally again maybe she would like, OK, because as adults we don't need these Donuts. So I don't love that we are holding on like white knuckling onto this. Donna, it's a doughnut, people and I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Know I see what you're saying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're you're apparently the Hostess. Last the kid was seven, OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're arguing? You cannot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So now that does actually shift me a little bit 7. The host held up a sign and told us that the child was seven years old and you know, and I don't really. I really dislike how the parent of the seven-year old addressed the issue, I mean and she went bonkers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How old is how old the kid? I'm sorry. Heaven, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Along with the kid over again. A doughnut? Nope. There are other choices.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Could we split it like there are so many other ways, but you don't call your friend out? Especially it sounds like a close relationship. We know these people very well as what the poster said, this seems overblown. Someone was hungry. Someone was absolutely angry when this when this went down.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm I'm imagining like my wife and I typically a vegan diet, but I'm far more flexible with things. And if I don't if I don't? Like what's vegan? I'll, I'll. I'll just eat. You know, eggs, dairy, whatever. But she's really specific about it. And if we went to a doughnut place and I bought a dozen doughnuts and it's specifically bought a vegan donut for her. Maybe she didn't even necessarily want it because she's not a big donut fan and a kid. A7 year old kid reached part of, like, you know what? That's a vegan donut. It's a special for her dietary needs. You know and if the parent like pitch to fit, I'd be like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dude, really. Remember the kid pitches the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but the parent. But then the that, that's fine. The kids going to pitch. If it's like I'm. I'm fine with the seven-year old being 7 and being like, no, I wanted that. Don't know. Because the thing about it once you say no, then that don't becomes the most important thing in the world. Have to pay. No problem with the seven-year old pitching a fit at that point I have a problem with the parent being upset. Like if someone said to me your 7 year old. That have that doughnut. It's the gluten free one or the OR the vegan one. Or the, you know, the one without peanuts, cause they'll die. Whatever, even if it's a minor thing. Not not dying is minor. But even if they, even if it were a relatively minor thing. Like he really likes like strawberry cream filled. I bought that one especially for him. Like or her. I might even in that situation be like that's OK, like even if there wasn't a good reason, like gluten allergy or peanut allergy or dietary constraint, I think it's OK to say no to. A7 year old. You can't have that one you have any of these others for any. I'm OK with almost any reason for that. Like I think I'm just, I'm not OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here I think you've you've definitely moved me. So you did say you were going to shoot it down. I appreciate that. I think that that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just, I would have liked to see the doughnut bringing poster. See some flexibility. But but it is such a soft like if I can massage the facts maybe. But the reality is you're right she had.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not that. Wasn't open to hearing. Arguments because you've moved me on some of these.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Every right to say this is the. This is the dough that my my husband selected, and maybe it's just the special cinnamon twist, something that he loves and it doesn't matter. This one is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Four. I'll call him Mike, right. This is for Mike. You can have your choice of any of the others. No. At that point, you're right. I think I would start holding that line just because now the seven-year old needs someone to hold the line.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I have. Yeah, we can. We can get caught up in whether or not it's because of the gluten sensitivity or not, but really I am OK with saying this was a special thing I got just for this person and at age 7 that messaging is is OK to send and it sounds like at least her own description of her reaction was that it was a very gentle response. I mean we we we we've been in social events together back when our kids were about that age and I recall times, I can't recall exactly. I was like, no, that's not that's not for you or that's not for now or that's not for this or not. No you can't have that and it's like all right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know well and yeah. Yeah. And it's OK. I'm I'm thinking back. Even just recently, we got together with extended family and I had an opportunity to tell my nieces and nephews now. And you know what? It went well. No, since they might have the Peach rings until you clean up the front yard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know what their answer was? OK. Yeah. No, it's. Fine. No, it's fine people. No, no one is going to get hurt when we set some boundaries with kids, they need to be. Obviously, that's overstated. That's hyperbole. Of course no can hurt. But in this case, no harm was created in the middle of the donut.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In this case, in this case, no. No harm has occurred and you know you're right. Husband didn't need. He's a grown ass man. He doesn't need a. He doesn't need a doughnut. And at the same time, I just. I'm I want to be there cause some of these situations almost like my reaction was my thought was who would react that way. Yeah. Like I don't even understand the reaction. Like maybe we're not getting the full story here because I can't imagine a situation in which you said no to my 7 year old when you were hosting a gathering. And even if it was about something that I thought was not a big deal, like you decided that the Cherries were only for the adults, they were, you know, $8 a pound. Hopefully you didn't bite down pound and you just you wanted them special for the for the girls to have a couple of them after their meal you spend and you rather not the kids like you know or whatever reason. And you said no I've been. Even if I thought you should have been like, all right, that's her cake. Like I can't. I'm having trouble finding the scenario that gets me mad. Here has the don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and. And then I just realized something, as you were saying this, yes, the husband doesn't need the donut, but if he's gluten free, it may mean that he's not having the birthday cake. So this may be the only sweet treat he gets at the party. So now he's more in the camp of, like, well, his don't, man.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, he's gluten free. You can't have that cake because the cake.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Free if it is in problems.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. And that kid is going to have cake and doughnuts and. And we need to let kids know. And that parent needed to have lent their parenting power to the poster. I really have been shifted. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No and 90. Dan, so where did the? That fall on this so Michael, because we both think that she's not an asshole and that the mom of the kid who went off on her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would think she thought. I don't know, that I might call her an asshole because I feel like I don't have enough. Because again, who does that? But she certainly not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. As as described in the post, I don't know what actually happened. It might have been that she was like you can't have that, you little ship bag and. And I'm going to and you know, but let's assume for the sake of argument that they went exactly as the original poster described it. The mom who went off. Or was an asshole.

Host: Michael:

And I'll say I actually truncated or abbreviated the post because it went on for quite a while there. Was a lot of. Detail the mom eventually grabs her kid and leaves the party because she's so upset. Like it really becomes like this. Even more ridiculous things. So it is one of those cases, one of the rare instances where the Internet is 100% unified, that the poster was not the asshole. There were a couple of interesting things that came up. I mean, one of the things that the mom of the seven-year old says. Is he's just a kid. And so a number of people on the Internet commented. You're not the asshole they quoted. He was just a kid. And then they're, like, so asshole what? Probably my favorite, not the asshole response was one that pretty succinctly then started another chain of conversation, which was. You're not that asshole. That kid is going to have to learn how to cope with life's disappointment sooner rather than later. The mother is not teaching appropriate coping strategies. She's doing a terrible disservice to her kids. Kids also benefit from being parented by other adults and learning that the world is not just their parents perspective. Yeah. Also depriving your husband of the donut. Settle the matter would have made you an asshole because it would have validated the mother's entitled attitude. And deprive your husband of a treat at the party that everybody, when everybody else had one, and he couldn't have because of his gluten allergy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, that's really thoughtful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, this may be a bit of a stretch, but I'm going to plug an article that was in Trade magazine recently only, just like I quoted in in it about moving and whether or not there are benefits to a person. Later in life of a move earlier, and we all. Agree that like moving is like difficult and challenging and creates hardship. And there's other research that increase the risk of depression and at the same time their benefits to having to learn how to meet new people and their benefits to having to learn how to how to how to cope with challenges in life and their benefits to being told no. And I think about the, the, the Alexander books by Judith Viorst, which my colleague Dr. MacBride and I both love because they don't have happy endings. And sometimes you have a really terrible, awful, no good, very bad day. And that just happens. And so kids need to get knows. Kids need to have to vote. Not that we want to put our kids through intentional hardship. Not that we want to cause our kids pain or hurt or trauma ever. That's terrible. And kids need to hear. No, they need to get. They need to have limitations set. I'm babbling too long. Gayle, please take over.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, wrong, no, no. Is the natural consequence of moving to the world right. Sometimes we get told no and right the commenter is right. You know helping that child cope with those nose is is the parents job and responsibility. And I do love what they said about. Allowing your children to be parented by other parents, seeing the perspective of other parents and seeing the world through other lenses has been really good for my children and my standard line. When I show up to a family event or I hand my kid over to another parent for the night, is parent my child like you would yours? Because I expect that you. Are going to treat them in a way that I hope is just unfair, but I also hope that you will impart some new perspectives, some ways of thinking that I that I wouldn't bring and I've not been disappointed in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That right, and if they're, if they're we're always assuming that they're decent. Really great, great human beings and that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, of course I like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thing and we're talking about here like, like you're going to walk into a job and you're going to find that this boss is arbitrary, capricious, and a complete asshole. And now you have to figure out how to adapt to that terrible that really difficult situation. And I think that, you know, this, this, this need to experience some of these difficulties is. Really important to experience difficulties in a healthy, non harmful, non abusive, non traumatic way because we need to develop the skills of coping with change and the skills of coping with no and the skills of cope. With mild hardship, but I think it's important.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All I can here in my head is The Princess Bride. Like this full of disappointment. Get used to it. Exactly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like back pain, life is pain and it will tell you something. Yeah. It's it's it's so. I mean, this kid being told no in a way that was not cruel or mean. But what seemed to that 7 year old, extremely arbitrary. Sometimes they all arbitrarily says no to you and I wouldn't do it gratuitously. I would never, ever suggest someone gratuitously.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, just to create this but but to support the reality that sometimes you're going to get to know and sometimes things are going to kind of suck. And all right.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Yeah, I will say that there were two kind of they all there was also this thread. I mean the thread about the parenting, other people, parenting kids was interesting and I'm glad you touched on that. They also said like here are some things you could have done differently. None of these. It doesn't make you an asshole that you didn't, but if you got that bag, that doughnut. Tag separately, so it would. Have been not included.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Allergy that would sort of make sense. Don't let that near the gluten yes donut.

Host: Michael:

And she did respond and say, you know, unfortunately, I was kind of in a rush. It was kind of a last minute thing. Things were tighter. Whatever. They just threw it all in the box. And then the other thought was that you could have potentially split or let the child have a bite of the donut. Not that you have to at all. I mean, you're absolutely right. No, it's perfectly fine. A lot of people wanted to know what the donut was. It was a blueberry crumble. And she said it did not have any special decoration or anything like that. That made it particularly attractive. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Even if it had again, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I do. I do find the donut shop to be a little bit of an asshole here because they have gluten free doughnut that they put it with the gluten Donuts. Someone was feeling that is that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, yes, just no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is so you know, let's. Go back to the doughnut shop and say you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Gotta bag those separately. No, you're absolutely right. Because there are some folks who like I don't. I prefer to not eat gluten. I think it causes me some difficulties, like I'd rather I'd rather not. I'm making this dietary choice the way I do it with eating a largely vegan. But there are other people who like literally would get very ill and I'm with you on the donut shop should have put it differently because some people with gluten sensitivity get can get very sick from very small amounts and others just do it as a lifestyle choice. So there's that. Either way, the donut shop should have. Been better about that, yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Definitely. Well, thank you both for joining us and another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the. That remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Man, you cannot make this. Stuff up. Who would want to help?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This one, this one, this one kind of surprised me. Stick around though, I've got a. Question for Gayle.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share Veritas Views. Any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And always stick around to the credits. Like Dan said, he's got a question for Gayle and we'll see. If that conversation goes.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So so you. And I both been doing this therapist gig for a couple of years now. I think more than 50 combined, maybe more than 60 combined, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, it depends on if you take training into account.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But go on, what thing do you fairly routinely say to people that makes? Yeah. Them go, huh? Thought about that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Before. So I think the thing that I often say to people that is surprising. To them is when I'm able to accurately reflect and guess at what their cognitive processes or their emotional states might be. It's really fascinating as a therapist when you've connected them empathically with your client to be able to truly make a good guess, and you watch your client go. How are you? In my brain right now. And it's usually around cognitive distortion, right? And how do you know that? I think that about myself. Well, because honestly, lots of people think that about themself. We look like I think sometimes we look like magicians or some, some some sort of trick up our sleeves to know this. But the reality is the trick is experience. And as you said, I've been doing this for over a combined combination of 50 years and the story and the narratives and people's heads are largely the same. We're not as different as we think. We're more similar. And honestly, that's I think validating and comforting to the clients we work with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I have, yeah. Oh yeah, I had this happen with couples sometimes where one of them will start saying like and they'll they'll they'll say, oh, we had this argument about them. Yes. And then you did this and then you did this, and then you did this and. Then you did. This, and they were like, how did you know all that? Like, that's the arguments always go and it's and that's we're here to fix and it it does give them some confidence that we can fix it I think and we're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh, you're flying my what?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Able. To able to do that, but yeah, it's it's not. It's as you mentioned. We see a lot of these things that happen. Fairly common responses to situations that folks don't realize are like you're not crazy. This is just stuff that oh, that's thank you. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When you're not alone. Right. A lot of this is what therapy is there to service. You know, this is not a lonely journey. And it is fixable and we can help.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I don't know. Well, thanks again, Michael. Looking forward to doing this again.

Host: Michael:

Sometime. Yeah. Thanks for tuning in. Tuning in next week for another AMI asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, I'm doctor Gayle MacBride, and I am really excited to be back with you, Dan. I've I've missed recording these with you. So welcome today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know what? It's been it's been a while and I'm looking and I'm looking forward as always to exploring who's the asshole and who's not the asshole and. And picking apart whatever conundrum are in intrepid post moderator. Yeah, there you go. Brings to us. So, Michael, what do you have for Doctor MacBride and myself.

Host: Michael:

Sure. Well, first of all, welcome both of you and anybody out there who's like. Wait a minute. Wait, what do you mean you have been religiously posting week by week? These podcasts, a little bit behind the curtain. We both took some time in June, and some of those things were prerecorded. But. Yeah, we're fresh and live now. So for any of the newbies out there who also are like, what is this podcast all about on the Internet, people post scenarios and they essentially ask who's the asshole here. And that's what we're going to hope to figure out. And also, if you're new, stick around through the end, we'll have a bonus conversation after the credits. And those are always entertaining. But neither Gayle. Or Dan know what post I'm going to ask him about. I haven't shared the. With them. So let's go. This is one that I found when we first started talking about doing this as a podcast. And I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, it's been in the hopper that long.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kind of. You held on to it.

Host: Michael:

I have because we started recording after it was relevant and you'll see it it's dated, but one of the things that I think works here in a lot of these scenarios is even though this is a very specific scenario, I think you can apply it to other kind of events. So great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A draw.

Host: Michael:

Anyway, this is what it is. Am I an asshole for assuming my baby could come to a Super Bowl party so that dates it in time? Right, the Super Bowl. But I was thinking like any other kind of events and we make assumptions and so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I'm already going with no but, but I guess we should together. Rest of it. Sure. I love judging books by their covers. So.

Host: Michael:

My wife and I, both in our 20s, got invited to a Super Bowl party yesterday. We have a 15 month old. I assumed the invite. Was for our kid as well. It was a text invite thing. This is happening at this time and place. No other details in my history of going to Super Bowl parties. They've always been a family friendly event, so I didn't think twice about bringing my kids to the buddy's house. We are both on the West Coast and it's over by 8:00 PM. So it's a daytime thing and not a late night thing like it would be on the East Coast. Apparently my kid was not invited and my buddy who hosted wasn't happy that we brought him over. We had a discussion that turned into argument and we left. He never mentioned no kids, but am I the asshole for assuming my child could?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is really interesting. I'm struggling a little bit because I want to understand more about how this 15 month old maybe disrupted the party that made this other person so cool about it. I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mean.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh 15 month olds are disrupted.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They, I mean they can be I. Suppose they are. But I’m trying to. I'm trying to imagine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe not your 15 month old, but all of my 15 months old.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So. So what happened? They cry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of course, they, they cry, they, they, they right and they poop in their.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You pick them up, you take them out of the room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Pants most other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. And you can see that. The parent at the event you take care of the baby's needs. Now I got it. Like, OK, so it's more mobile than and I am going back to my own time when I brought a baby to a Super Bowl party. But my memory is. I'm thinking about this was that baby was mostly in its car seat or someone's lap because it was probably.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Participants probably don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know, only less than two months old. So maybe that's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wait, wait, wait. Michael has something to say? He fixed his hand.

Host: Michael:

I was going to say you you're hitting on something very important. Like the headline says my baby. But then everybody in the comments is like you didn't bring a baby. You brought a toddler, a baby you could hold or stay in a car seat or whatever. A toddler 15 month is mobile. So anyway, sorry. I just wanted to make sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You hit that but. I think there's I struggle a little bit because I am guessing this host does not have children and so does not understand the assumption that the 15 month old cannot watch itself. So you might want to then give the parents a heads up. This is an adult only like. I think the. Host of this event did a disservice to their friend by not being more explicit, saying hey, you're going to need to get a babysitter. I think that they. Should have told.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Them. Yeah, here's what I want to know. What was the host's complaint? Did they? Did they elaborate on what host complained about?

Host: Michael:

Yes, the toddler kept grabbing snacks and toddlers are not known for washing their hands, and they might. Touch on the things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And runny noses I suppose.

Host: Michael:

And so they were digging in the bowels of things and double dipping.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you know, being a toddler, curious, wandering around that kind of thing. Yeah, toddlers are toddlers are toddlers. They're going to, they're going to be disruptive 100%.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Going to be disrupt.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

100% I totally agree and I think that's not the issue here. Everybody knows the toddler's going to be disruptive. The parents know and the host knows it's the poor communication between these two friends. And then it sounds like it devolved. And then Michael, I don't know if there are more details about how that conversation devolved, cuz I'm assuming the host is like. Hey, you should have known you should have asked and the parent is like. Well, you should have said like right. And so now we're really just. Missing another opportunity to have you know the best assumption of someone that we care about, that we're friends with and to understand each other's position here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, this is where I jump in with my standard line about like 7 minutes into the. ROM com. Yeah, they just sat down and had a nice little talk about what they should or shouldn't do, what the roles are, what's going on. The entire thing is over roll credits and this is one of those many examples of times where like a just a brief conversation ahead of time and either one of them could have initiated the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Conversation and I think would have been perfectly appropriate to do so. I think each came into the situation with and a set of expectations that again.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We're just different, not wrong. And they didn't make those expectations explicit with each other. And in doing so, they probably began to harbor resentment as the friend. But the toddler starts to feel more and more uncomfortable because he's probably getting looks that are telling him, like, oh, you made the wrong decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In here and the host is like. My gosh, this toddlers everywhere and it's not and whatever. Like. So they're each, they're each probably ratcheting up as the evening goes. And I'm guessing their adult beverage involved which lowers inhibition and tolerance for these kinds of things. And it just goes off the rails without checking that expectation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely. No, I mean, here's the thing. If if I'd been hosting an adults. Only party and someone brought a 15 month old, especially the Super Bowl Party with all of its stuff around that might that might annoy me. On the other hand. I'm and I feel like we haven't explored this enough for me to jump to this place, but I have to say I'm much, much more annoyed with the inviter than the invitee on this one. Mm-hmm. I mean, yes, 15 months old or 15 month olds are inherently active and disruptive and 100% will disrupt and and. But I gotta say, if I were like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I were invited to something I had 15 month old. It was a daytime thing. I would just like I and I would bring my kiddo. I wouldn't even think twice about it. Yeah, and if I, but if you want to host. An adult only party. The parameters of the party are on the host.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, 100 percent, 100%.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And and. So while I think that the attendee bears some responsibility, you're saying, hey, my, my my kid is going to be there. Like, I hope that's OK with you. Like, I would have made. I wouldn't even said. Is it OK. To bring it I was like, oh, yeah, I'm bringing the kid. I, you know, you know. But I I think it's incumbent much more on the to have said don't this is this is adults only we're drinking, we're swearing, we're throwing shit at the TV. This is going to be food everywhere. We just this is just not a great environment for a toddler. Would love to have you join us. If. You can find a babysitter during the Super Bowl.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yep. And I'm going to throw a little bit of a wrench because I agree with you. I agree with you, but let's think about this poster is a 20 something year old, right? Maybe even the 1st in his group to have children. And I have to say 20 something year olds, you know, stereotypical males are not known to be thoughtful party throwers.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of course you didn't. I'm right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so now we have someone who's just maybe ignorant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hello, I'll own that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, so now, now this guy who's never had kids didn't think to set the parameter because he doesn't think about it, doesn't even hit his radar. Now I allow for the fact that he should have been kinder and more generous about the conversation afterwards. Like, so I should have. I should have thought to say this. Sorry dude, but I don't think that he naturally would have maybe come up with this and that massage facts of the scenario right where nobody else had said the guy, you know, 15 months old.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We've only hit one Super Bowl party with this baby, and they maybe even dipped out last year cuz baby was so young, so you know, so they just don't think about where that miss is going to happen. And I would like to see these two friends go. Aw, man, we're really learning something from this situation. And we're going to do it differently next time. Hey, you're almost 3 year old. Is not going to be. Is not going to be welcome to next year. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I I never, I never faced this early on because my cohort of friends at the time we like like there was there were like 6 couples. Like there's that seven couples, but six of them were pregnant at the same time. So like like everyone. Like like and we would remark about how last year's Super Bowl Party was so different than this year's Super Bowl Party, because this year there's like crawlers and some. And then this and that the and the thing and last year it was just like sitting around and you know so it was a very different. I remember that at that. But I didn't I didn't face it this way and and yeah like I get what you're saying like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like the 20 something young man is probably not thinking that. Oh, shit. This is going to be a thing. And but that's also in him to say Nah, I learned something. Yeah. If I want to have a grown up party, I should know that my friends are starting to have babies. I should, I should say that this is a grown up only party and I've been we've all been invited to parties in it so. On the thing like you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For sure you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't tell me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Posted parties and I have clarified with you and your wife. Kid. Yeah, right. Just to make. Yeah, you know, right. And sometimes, yes. And sometimes no. I mean, we've we've gone to things together where we've shared the babysitter at the other house and gathered because kids weren't weren't appropriate. Think it's perfectly OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

100th time, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is that an adult only party? But I think when you do that when someone has kids involved, you do need to be really explicit and they go back to that Priya Parker book. I think we talked about it before the art of the gathering. Like you said, there's a really specific intention about who you invite for the purpose of the party. So if we're going to drink and swear and throw popcorn at the TV, that is not a place for a 15 month old, one might argue. Hey, said friend that brought the child should know this and you know his life is changing. So maybe he thought this party would change as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're you're. Yeah. You're you're being kinder to, to. To the, to the. The host that than that I might be, but I get it. I think I'm coming around to your position on this, cuz my first thought is this host is about. An asshole. And then the parents. Like. Yeah, they made a mistake that like, I'm more forgiving of them. But I'm. I'm. I'm kind of coming around to the initial error like I'm having I'm not so upset about the initial error. Anyones part?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I think he. Just felt maybe embarrassed. And that's hard emotion to sit with embarrassment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, I. I could see that and I think that and I totally see this this dude like, like trying to have this Super Bowl party and I've gone out of my way to get the like the, the, the Buffalo Wings and now the baby's smearing like like hot sauce everywhere and crying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All over the couch, which is probably babies.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All over the cow like and like and they dug your hands to the Cheetos. As like. Now there's Cheeto dust everywhere because they dug their hands to the Cheetos and they got that on their face. And then, you know, there and I have to move everything I OK, fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm sorry, 15 year olds are snot factories. I'm coming. Back to that. Ohh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, and. And everyone, what I would have really loved to have seen is everyone here, let's go back to to, to, to John and Julie Gottman. 'S. Assuming positive intent, everyone here, everyone, everyone here, just gone. Yeah, I should have asked. Yeah, I should have told you, like. Well, all right. And everyone could have had a laugh over it and just been like, that's where the ashless.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Comes in, is getting shitty. How dare you bring a 15 month old to my Super Bowl party? How dare you get mad at me about bringing my 15 month old you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And whiney.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Should have known like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That that detail on this post is missing is really, how did that argument go down? I mean, the question is, am I an asshole for bringing my 15 month old? I think we're at this place where we're going to we're going to make a ruling. And I'm going to say no, you maybe should have asked, maybe the host ideally would have said something. I don't think there are assholes in that question where we're jumping to and I think becomes a conversation between friends, even in a therapy setting. I mean, friend therapy has.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Kind of become a thing. You know, we don't really have codes for that, but, you know, friends, sometimes our our family and those relationships take a lot of work and we think.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm going to go off on a little bit of a side here for a moment. We sometimes think. That friendship stuff should happen organically and be sustained naturally. And then when there's a difficulty in the road, we give up when we move on, whereas we're willing to do family therapy to continue to make a family unit work well and repair relationships and those kinds of things. But friends are incredibly valuable in our life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Never do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So if we can have this idea of friend therapy to maintain or repair a ruptured relationship between friends, I would love to have these two guys in my office. And have the conversation about how that conflict went down, right. And that's where I think the potential as wholeness could show up, right is how did you approach your friend? Did you, did you assume the best intent? Did you were the drinks involved? Should we have just stepped away because we were? You know, I might asshole for arguing when I was drunk. Those kinds of questions will come up for me, but not inherently in bringing the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Yeah, I I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

15 month old.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to agree. I think that the if there's any absoluteness it's it's in the latter part of it. There were a couple both people didn't think row like all the what would have happened and how that would have been. I'm more I'm still more annoyed at like I'm not willing to call either one of them an assault for the initial mistake. I am willing though to say that they're both like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Leaning into asshole territory much more the inviter than the invitee in getting shitty at each other, right? But I also suspected it was. Dude, why did you bring your kid? This is an adult only thing. Like if it if it was that sort of a thing. But problem is we don't know how it actually came down. Yeah, like he might have said. Oh, gosh, I really wish I'd mentioned to you that this is an adults only thing. I'm really sorry I made that mistake and I didn't have things set up properly for you having a 15 month old and I should have talked to you about that and then the parent. All passed off. Then. They're the asshole. Like I. That's what we're missing here. Some of the. How did this get approached? And who escalated it? And but doesn't like. And being particularly kind here, OK.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So there's there's a couple of things I can add to kind. Of clarify 1. Unfortunately, the poster has not clarified a lot of things. The one thing that he did clarify is how the conversation went down, which was his friend pulled him in the room and said you're an asshole. For being 15. Month old. That was basically it. Yeah. All right, all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh OK. Right. No, no, no, no. Now, now, now.

Host: Michael:

So unfortunately that did not go well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. But I will say what he did right there is he called his friend out, but he did it in a separate room. He didn't do it in the room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So now that guy's. An asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

People of people I'm not agreeing with how he called them out, but if you're going to have a conversation like that, you absolutely do it quietly and privately. So I'm glad. You did that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And that's fair. That's fair, quietly and privately, is certainly the way to do it. But man, I mean you learn from at that point you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just like. Yeah, like I, I could see myself going. Ohh. God, I really should have told him not to bring the kid.

Host: Michael:

Oh no, I'll say from. And very much so, even though they didn't clarify this, I mean it's pretty clear from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again.

Host: Michael:

A few things he did comment that his friend didn't have kids, so I think your point of. Being him probably being the first one to have kids in the friend group really messes up that dynamic. I mean, Gayle and I were the first to have children in our family, and there's just a it's just, it changes your mindset on things that nap times and all these things that do not occur to somebody who has never had a kid or hasn't been around them. You know, it just doesn't apply, you know, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

He probably didn't occur to him, but I guess since this is about the Super Bowl, I'm curious what happens if we shift it and we make it a a random party or hey, we're having a BBQ come on over. Or more formal, if we did a wedding and you get a wedding invite, where do you come down on whether the kids automatically invited or not?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Getting it. Yeah, I yeah. But wedding invitations. Any formal invitation? I put it 100% on the on the person to death to say who's invited. Although in in a wedding invitation, they always say so and so and so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I am.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so right? So you don't get to bring it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it it helps with you say and family and because that provides clarity that the children are invited. But I went to a wedding last spring and it was not clear. And so my first response was to the bride or the kids invited.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, of course.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course. And then I RSVPed for all four of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because I wasn't sure what kind of event and this happened to be an Indian wedding, so I knew it was going to last hours and hours and. Hours and I. Didn't know if this would be appropriate for my children to attend, as it turned out they were welcomed and everyone was happy to have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Them there, but you certainly bring in the cultural aspect of this. Because you know that kind of. And I originally was was on the side of, like, no, it's up to the person providing the invitation. But in in an invitation. And depending on the culture, children going to a wedding maybe like what everyone expects in other cultures, children go to the wedding. Yeah, like doesn't happen. And so I think I think everyone needs to be explicit and where they're not explicit. I love that. Asking is really really important, but they should. I think like I got it invited to it in the wedding, I guess was two years ago now and a family member's wedding. And it said on it this is a. So it's only. Wedding. OK, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Perfect, right. And then you went and just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Great. And we went and had it, you know, and I really believe it's it's it's on everyone's part to be as explicit as possible and where it's not explicit to explicit tize it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That I like that I've learned as an adult, ask the question right. If you're not certain, ask the question. There generally is no harm in asking, but there's harm in assuming and so I will tend to ask and I appreciate it when others ask to Michael's point earlier, what if it's just a BBQ?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Friends that I made through work have. A child think that child is 2 now and much younger than my 13 and 15 year old. So when we get together and we've done family things, the question is kids or no, right? Because it's not like when you and I gather and our kids are closer to age and hang out, this is maybe my kids kind of doing a babysitting role. Which they love. Little kids that would be. Line, but we could also see a world in which now let's just do couples and let's leave the two year old home.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, this and and these are discussions that everyone should have. We're getting back to who to blame here. I'm still blaming the inviter more than the invite. Especially if you approach it like you're. You're an asshole to bring your kid, right? But. And so many, we're going to get back to this message over and over again. So many wasted opportunities are having conversations.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you mentioned John and Julie. Batman start with a softened start up. Hey man, I realized I didn't mention that. However I did sort of think that it was assumed that there were no kids like even that would be a more gentle way of approaching. Great. But you know, instead of, you're an.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

asshole. I think even more so. What he should have done is gone. Oh, man. Sucked up and didn't tell them. And like, gritted his teeth and just dealt with it the entire time. And then next party. This is the kids only part. This. This is an adults only party. I believe that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean that would have been ideal for sure. But if you're going to bring it up, you need to think about a harsh startup versus a softened startup and a harsh startup. You're an asshole bringing your kids. That's what that is. And it's never going to go anywhere. It's going to engender defensiveness. And then you have an argument on your hands. So, you know, a softened start up and taking responsibility. Oh, man, I wish I thought to tell you earlier, kids weren't really involved. So next time, let's just make sure that we talk about that ahead of time or something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, I think you're right. And I think my, my my last thought of ohh we should just not say anything and do it next time I think I'll be wrong because I totally see the person next time going. Ohh he's mad because I brought my kid and I think being more explicit about how yeah we had meant it to be an adult only thing and we and we and we'll make it more explicit in the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, you're totally fine to have brought your kiddo. You didn't know, and I. And if you see something in the future, it's just cause sometimes you want to have adults. Only things you can understand that these kinds of gentle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. That's taking responsibility. So we've got some good antidotes to those, those really necrotic processes or toxic processes when you have a disagreement. And so introducing antidotes like soft and startup and taking responsibility are huge. So just diffusing anything that gets tense.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. 100%.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, so the Internet was kind of all over the place on this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not surprising.

Host: Michael:

There were a lot of people who said you're the asshole. You shouldn't assume your child is not a Super Bowl party, is not a family friendly event. And then in that there are all these arguments cuz they're like I have never been to a Super Bowl party without kids and like and then they're like what Super Bowl parties are you going to? And they went back and forth and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

Clearly. They just live in different realities. I mean, I think, yeah, I think one of those things that you guys keep hitting on is like, I think both of them are just in a different place of their life and they just made assumptions based on where they're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Very different Super Bowl parties.

Host: Michael:

Our kid is part of our family and where we go, our kid goes and the other guy is like, I don't have kids. Why would a kid be in my house? This is bizarre. I never thought about this, you know, so there's that. There were no assholes here and all of them basically kind of pointed, like you said, like everybody kind of failed, but not in a malicious way. They weren't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Host: Michael:

Trying to trip anybody up and then everybody sucks. Here was the other version of that where it was like you did. You should have asked. You should have done this. And there's lots of finger pointing. Yeah. And the one that was my favorite side conversation. Then the. Because you're the asshole. You should never assume your child is invited, which then said OK, let's forget about kids. What about dogs? Every time I have a BBQ, friends bring dogs to the barbecue, and I didn't invite them. And then it made me think about like that. Like, if dogs are your world and you don't have kids and then you need someone to watch them anyway. So I don't know. It's. Spiraled all kinds of ways.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It did. It did and. I would agree you don't bring your dog unless it's explicitly, you know, you know your dog. Is invited. I'll bring. My cat. I know. I'm just thinking next time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The cat and the cat. With that I brought my cat. Should be he'll be. They'll be. They'll be fine. They just hide in the planned the BBQ all day.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know, I usually can't make this stuff up, but this felt really real. I really appreciate the opportunity to take apart something that just was a very human difference among Americans who enjoy Super Bowl.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Parties. There you go.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms, your neighbors and friends. Always, as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about whatever it is we're going to talk about today.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised here is that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Dan, I have a question for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You bet. Cause I have no idea what the bonus conversation is going to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. OK. So I'm wondering what is something that you often say to your client that surprises them?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Huh. I think one of the things that often comes up is the that you don't have to accept what's offered like people.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thanks more, I love this conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

People are always offering you things. They're offering you advice. They're offering you guilt. They're offering you shame or all sorts of other things. And. And we have the option of saying no with all sorts of things. And the way I do this in my office and you know. It's I just start handing people things you know, and it's my experience that whenever you reach out and hand something, someone something, they'll just. And they end up with at some point when I just keep handing them more and more shit in my office and they got stuff piled everywhere. They're like, why are you doing this? I'm like, why are you taking it? Do you want any of this? And they're like, no, I don't want any of it. Well, why'd you take it? Well, you gave it to me. Well, you know. And. They're like, oh, I don't have to accept the guilt that my mom or dad is offering me. I don't have to accept the. Anger that's being offered me. I don't have to. Like, I can make a different choice. And I think just making explicit that that we don't have to take what's offered to us, I think. And it seems really obvious. But it surprises folks and it sometimes even surprises me how often I accept what's. To me, when I'm offered guilt or when I'm offered some other emotion that I don't necessarily want and they go well, yes, I'll take this on and make it mine, and then we don't have to do that and we can be really, really clear. Like I don't. I'm. OK, with not taking.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for tuning in, tune-in next week for another am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

During the chat, Dan mentioned the urology episode of Ologies with Alie Ward: "Urology (CROTCH PARTS) with Dr. Fenwa Milhouse." Here's that link: https://www.alieward.com/ologies/urology

And to answer the question about ass or crotch, etiquette says: "always face the stage", which has translated into "the front". So, in the plane, you'd be looking at the cockpit. Therefore, your butt would be looking at your fellow seatmates. [In her 1922 book “Etiquette in Society, in Business, in Politics, and at Home,” Emily Post advised theatergoers to "always face the stage and press as close to the backs of the seats you are facing as you can.”]

And now for the Transcript:

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic dual psychologists.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas psychology partners.

Host: Michael:

Thank you for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and I am really excited to have doctor Dan Kessler with me here today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm doctor Dan Kessler and I'm really excited to have doctor Dan Kessler here with me today to begin this process and also my and also his business partner Gayle MacBride, who is incredibly helpful when. Where I have a complex issue and I and I love that we're hosted by the most curious person I have ever met. Michael, do you have an Internet quandary for us today? I'm guessing you.

Host: Michael:

True. I appreciate the warm introduction as well. So for anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about here, we're going to talk about. My vessel which ensure. Somebody posts the scenario that happened to them in real life and says who's the asshole in this situation and that's what we're hoping to determine. Also, if you're new, stick around through the credits. We always have some bonus conversation and know Gayle has something cooked up that she's going to ask Dan about. So we'll see what happens there. But right now, neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this particular topic. Before or read it. Or any of those things so I'll just roll with it. The headline is, Am I the asshole for making my plane seat neighbor uncomfortable?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So the person that sat next to this.

Host: Michael:

Plane like airplane.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Individual on an air.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh plane seat plane seat neighbor. Oh oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You're making him uncomfortable. Yeah. Comfortable enough. If you're doing it intentionally, hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I got confused. I got confused by the whole plane. You know, the English language is such a.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Such a conundrum. Yeah. I mean, plain and OK, so plane.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pardon. Yeah, got it.

Host: Michael:

Yes, that I should have spelled it for you though now. So this one says I am 45 year old male just got off a long flight, the kind where even the comfiest seats feel like torture racks. Now I'm a big dude. Not yet booked. Two seats level, but enough for plain seats to be absolute. Hell, book the window seat figure the extra. Extra space would help. There the flight attendant assigns a woman to the middle seat. Nice person. We exchanged greetings, no problem. Here's where things get tricky. Nature called a couple of times during the flight, and let's just say squeezing by in that cramped space is an exercise in contortionism at the best of times. The woman in the middle seat politely refused to get up whenever I needed to use the restroom, causing me to squeeze by her. The lady in the aisle seat was very accommodating and would get up anytime. I were the lady in the middle. Needed to get up. Now I get. It nobody wants. Some sweaty dude brushing past them, I tried my best to minimize contact. Literally sucked in my gut and held my breath like I was underwater. But even with all the contorting, there was some unavoidable brushing past at the end of the flight, the woman makes a passive aggressive comments about personal space and how uncomfortable I made her feel throughout the play. Honestly, I felt terrible. I didn't mean to make her feel that way, but what else was I supposed to do? Hold it for 8 hours. Ask her to physically get up. Since she repeatedly didn't get up and indicated I should squeeze. By I had no reason to think she was bothered by it, and I had the asshole for making her uncomfortable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, so this is gets back to that issue of mandrea that we've talked about intent and my initial brush with the with the clickbaity headline here was that there was some intent that this person was trying to make their seat mate uncomfortable, but there was all this offense. In fact the other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Give. Give our listeners. Yeah. Give our listeners a brief on a men's on men's Rea. As two former forensic psychologists go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And two forensic psychologists. You know, we often think about this concept of mens rea, which really is in legal terms, whether or not you had the forethought and planful nature for the something that you knew that what you were going to do would be would result in XYZ. So in this case. I had assumed that he had mens rea that he was planned fully, intentionally making his teammate uncomfortable as opposed to unintentionally so he did not have planful forethought in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That. Yeah, First off, there is an asshole here, all right? And the asshole is, and I just want to apologize. Yeah, the hassle here is the airline industry. They have progressively shrunken what they refer to as seat pitch, which is the distance between one seat and another seat to such an outrageously narrow proportion. That it really doesn't fit many humans and humans like we do come in a variety of sizes and you know, I don't want to shame this man for being a larger fellow. I’m kind of lucky. I'm five. I used to be 5857. These things happen. But even like putting my relatively not that big a person sized. Frame into an airplane seat can sometimes be hella uncomfortable, and there's there is unavoidable squeezing through and. And contact and I'm mad. I mean, I like, like, come on airlines, can you do a better job of having seats that are comfortable for people?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, I think that it cuts into profits and you know, we can get into a whole diatribe of things, right? But that's why they've had to shrink. This is ultimately every little inch, well, every little inch allows them to squeeze.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Had to. I do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

More channel in and I think that's that's problematic. And so the day and age where we are lining pockets of this big businesses, that's what this was and interest stuff. But aside from that unavoidable factor at this point, I don't think that I mean again with lagging that Mens Rea this guy didn't intend.

Host: Michael:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But was aware of the outcome and what I appreciate in this original poster is that he is aware that his larger frame already maybe encroaches on the personal space of someone in these teeny tiny little seats, as a smaller framed woman, I have been in said seat. Felt like I needed to really pull in because someone was sitting next to me that I did not know it was larger than me and just took up more space and that's not and they're not intentionally trying to encroach in my space and you know, I remember a flight in particular where a larger guy was sitting next to me and as much as he was going to try to suck it in and be small on our relatively small. White. There was no way that even the two of us were going to. This without bumping shoulders and you know, I remember drinking my orange juice and my arm kind of locked at my side. And, you know, at one point the cup actually spilled ice on the other on the other person. And I felt terrible because there's just nothing you could do about that face, even if you are the most accommodating of seat mate. So to make a stabbing. Comment at the end is is really unkind and she had a part in that relationship to yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I think that's that's exactly right. We need to traveling, it can suck. And we're often crammed into spaces with lots of people. Sometimes we end up. You can't help, but if you've ever lived in a big city, I used to live in in DC is that biggest city. But I used to commute on the metro. Beautiful, clean, wonderful system. But during rush hour, physical contact between people in the metro. It was nearly unavoidable. It wasn't like, like you see, sometimes the Tokyo subway, where they're literally pushing people in. But there were times when there was, like, you were an unavoidably going to be pressed up against another human being. Like there was nothing you can. Do other than being packed in those tight spaces and airplanes are the same way, you can't always avoid contact with with your neighbor in the seat. You're not always going to be able to avoid bumping into someone going in here and there. You want to minimize that and be as respectful as you can, which at least by his description Opie has done, he went out of his. Way to try.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't you think up the seat like this is my territory and I will not. Move unless I. Have to go back honestly, in that situation, I'd have gotten up because I don't want big guy importing and climbing over me to get out. I was just gotten up. I don't understand why.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no. I yeah. I don't even.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't understand that decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I fly out so I fly a lot. Not. Maybe not a lot. A lot, but but I fly often enough and I'm and I've been some and I, you know, I I'm. I'm not willing to pay the extra ahead of time to get the seat that I want I take what the airline. And. Usually I and I have never had a situation where I was in the middle seat where I often end up where I didn't say excuse me, I need to get out to use the restroom. Where someone hasn't said hasn't just gotten up. I've never had someone like stay there and ask me to go past them like I can't recall a time when someone has.

Speaker

I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Feel like that's happened to me, but again I'm. I'm a smaller woman and, you know, contortion is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I just haven't. I've never had it happen. I've never had someone say no. I usually term. I'm really sorry, but I need to get up and use it and they're like, it's so and. We're always like sure, absolutely. Yeah. And I could tell like, this is like the guy sitting next. She's like, snoring away. And you're like, so how long do I let this guy sleep? How like, my bladder is really started getting like. And then you ask and they get up and they get up because they have to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can't imagine sitting in an aisle or middle and not getting out for the person at the window, but it just seems this seems like social nicety.

Host: Michael:

So. So it's interesting. This was definitely a point of contention on the Internet. So many people were completely there. There was a a divide between the people who are in complete disbelief that this person would not move. They're like, who does that? That doesn't make any.

Speaker

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

And then there was an equally strong contingent who was like, people do this all the time. Like they sit in their seat and they built themselves in and they make you climb over them and several people were like, yeah, they look at you like, duh, do the thing or whatever. And never. I'm like, I have never had that experience.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If you say go. Do the thing, then do the thing and you have to understand that this is the size of the person that's going to be doing the thing with you and then without verbally consenting to it, consented to it because you didn't move or you because you have an opportunity to say just a moment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'll get up. Yeah. Now, part of me wanted to be annoyed at him and say, well, you should have. Could have chosen an ILC. Because that would have given you a little extra space too. But then I thought you know what? No. What person would ever make the assumption that others wouldn't get out of the way? Cuz they do get out of the way for you. They just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't feel like we're talking about this thing, and it feels like an episode of Seinfeld. Like, I just, I keep going back to imagining the conversation, even around the shared armrest. What must that have been like between these two people? And it probably would have been a hilarious episode because we have so many assumptions. Built into this kind of travel and the behavior of others, yeah.

Host: Michael:

That was actually one of the comments in here was about the armrest, so. Yeah. Who owns that? Right? There's one per chair. Or is it always to the left or what happens to the person in the middle? They get both and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There's no I don't think there's an official etiquette for who owns the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Armrest I don't think there is and as the person who's gotten stuck in the middle, the person in the window feels like they have a right to vote, and then you've got someone on the other side and I've literally been stuck and. And that's my point of annoyance, because that's not something that you really can negotiate and you've got someone who's just firmly planted. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to propose something I'm going to propose that the official rule should be the ILC gets both armrests because or the other side, the middle seat gets both armrests cuz the aisle has an opening to the side and the window has the window. The person in the middle has nothing going for them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sure. OK. Has the bump up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They should officially get both armrests. I like that, yeah.

Speaker

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yep, I I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think I'm going to negotiate like my elbows are back and your elbows are for when we can both. Use it but. I like. I like you know, the middle seats getting kinda screwed over here so.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But I've been sitting in a seat and have my arms on both armrests and suddenly going shit. I wonder if. I want to move my arm over and then they like they're not taking and then like I'm looking over and they're not, they're not taking the armrest. They're like, should I put? My arm back. No, I want to give them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, look, from Minnesota that I could take the lot, the low. Remaining armrest the only.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

One left there's only one. Armrest. I can't take that I have to. That behind no, it's a I’m I'm most annoyed again. We're going to assume positive intent and assume that OP is telling the story exactly as it happened. And if the story happened exactly as it is, no, you're not an asshole. You're a guy who's doing who's overweight.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it's so nice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And doing his best to be as considered as possible. But you got set next to someone who like grabbed a hold of their territory and clung to it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, I'm really particularly annoyed because the person. The middle seat had a chance to do something different and then chose to continue with a set of behaviors that left them feeling resentful and then made a snide passive comment later. Like I think you lose the right to make that when you had a chance to make other decisions and you didn't.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I also think about our middle seat person like I kind of feel like I feel kind of bad for them because they had an opportunity to go to, to be sitting there and go. I'm stuck next to this heavy guy that I don't want to be next to, but like. I'll make what I can of it, because that's the luck of the draw and instead they chose to take a path of resentment and irritation and anger and allowed that to probably fester for a good part of that eight hours. They had an opportunity to just kind of be like, this sucks and no one wants this, but it sucks. And instead they made it into this sucks, and that guy is doing and.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Speaker

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And yeah, yeah, they they they chose to personalize something that isn't that isn't really about them. And that's unfortunate that really is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's doing nothing to me. I like what you said there. I think that's really important we. Do tend to or we can get in the trap of personalizing something that is occurring and feel like it is wrongdoing and feel overly invested in. Then that perception of being wronged and it causes us to behave badly as opposed to not even here necessarily assuming positive intent on the seat mate.

Speaker

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So just understanding that this is a situation that is of everybody's outside of everybody's sort of making.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. We're often seeking to figure out who's to blame. Even today, we're doing this, you know, that's sort of human nature to look for, who there is to blame. And it's so hard to set back to any human to any conflict. But it's an interpersonal conflict or geopolitical conflict and say, like, no one is necessarily to blame if people have a differing, differing perspectives that are valid.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How do we work with this without blaming anyone and try to figure this out in the best way we can?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And. And they say, you know, blame and shame also often go hand in hand here, and we have, we've really neglected to look at where the problem exists, which is again the airline, the seats and how much, what. Pitch where it actually is available to us as consumers, as opposed to this person, did something to me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. So, no, I he's not an asshole. I'm. I'm pretty annoyed with her in the middle. I don't know enough about her to call her an asshole, but I'm really she made some choices here that were pretty petty. At least the way that she's described. She made some choices here. They're pretty petty and completely unnecessary.

Speaker

For me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it would have been more, I would rather personally get up from my seat than have someone kind of climb over me. That's that's uncomfortable. So you're not the asshole? Opaque.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, what were you going to ask?

Host: Michael:

Well, I was going to ask one or more etiquette thing because it it there there. I mean air travel is. I mean, there's just so many things and so many of the people in the comments, you know, just talked about how uncomfortable air travel is. And, you know, all kinds of stuff. Everything's miniaturized. And so on and several of them pointed to Fight Club, the movie where the book there was a scene in there where Brad Pitt's character is passing somebody on the airline, and the question is asked, or crotch, which do I give you as I pass? And the same thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I was thinking this the whole time.

Host: Michael:

And the same thing happens in this scenario right? Like which way do you turn when you are trying to squeeze by somebody and is there a a more polite way of passing when you're stuck in those situations?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For some reason I had this like vague recollection of reading some etiquette posts. That wasn't a post on the Internet. It must have written because it's like this is like pre Internet like 2530 years ago. There is like some correct etiquette for in a theater. The right way to pass and I don't remember which way it is but at some point this has definitely been addressed by some of those like like I'm now on a mission. Michael, can I give you a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Emily post.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mission to like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, you didn't even need to give it. You know that the moment that he's off the hook for a couple of minutes while we're talking, he's going to be looking this up and telling. What the etiquette is?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we will put in the we will, we will put in. The. Show notes what the correct etiquette is, and invite people to weigh in on it. If you don't mind as So what you think the correct etiquette is, and I'm going to use your terminology here. Pass or crotch? Which one is going to be in the person's face cuz that's neither is neither is, neither is good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. And maybe it's just helpful for us to know. Because now we're back in theaters and we're back in airplanes and we're in some sleep crowded spaces, we hadn't been for maybe a few years, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this won't be posted. I'm. Flying in just a couple of days, this won't be posted before then. I won't know, although I'm sure that our hosts here will have an answer for me by close of Business Today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So so again, you weighed in, Michael, is this a good time for me to weigh in? Yeah, you should probably not terribly surprising based on our conversation, I really don't think the OP here is the asshole. I don't need to speak. He sucks. You know, I think nation socks. I I'm it is really unfortunate. I'm disappointed in the seat mate. I wish she would have been a bit more assertive or at least even had a discussion with him about his up and down. I mean what we don't know is how frequent was this. I mean, you can only hold the bladder for so long. But he had prostate problem and that may be a little bit more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When one would would like on on an airplane, but but we don't know those details, I am disappointed in her. I don't know. That she sucks. You know, as far as like and where? Where is she on that dickish slider? But I it is unfortunate that she wasn't a bit more direct in her communication, or at least understood that she was in in an unfortunate situation. So I'm not pleased with her decision there to mutter under her breath, sort of passively. At the end of this, but I don't think. There are assholes here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I yeah, I'm. I'm a little bit more annoyed with her than you are, but I agree there are original part OP here is he's not wrong. Billy said, as per his description. So.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, and the Internet mostly agrees with you. I mean, for the most part, there was a lot of not the asshole. And people who were who divulged their size or gender and talked about, you know what they were comfortable with or what they would have done or, you know, several people who said I'm a totally average or I'm petite and I still touch people, as you know, in this situation, like, there's no way around it.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're going to have physical contact on an airplane with you, with a person who's sitting next to you. Like it or not, you can have some physical contact with them. There's no way to avoid it. It's one of my least favorite. Parts of their.

Host: Michael:

And he did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is the kind of nice thing about traveling with family, then at least the person who's touching you is someone. That you're related to.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, he did actually say in the comments cuz a lot of people asked for info and he was actually very responsive. He went to the bathroom twice during an 8 hour flight, which does not seem excessive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Better than me for sure.

Host: Michael:

I mean it's 4.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I was going to say.

Host: Michael:

Pathways right in. Yeah, out in, out in whatever, but. So there was that there, there was the one that surprised me was there were a number of people who said everybody sucks here, you know, piling on the middle person, but then also saying like, you're a big guy. I'm a big guy. You take the aisle seat. Like, what the hell? Dude? Like, how do you think you're getting any more room in the window seat? And you know that this is going to. At least you know, make people uncomfortable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't understand his calculation of having more room at the window I've.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Never felt that as a.

Host: Michael:

I feel like you lose. Space with the window. Weirdly but, but then they also pointed out that was interesting. Was the fight against being a larger man in the aisle seat? Is the cart and people who hit you repeatedly as they walked through as well, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now it makes that'll make sense. I hadn't thought about about that. But I mean, I'll see probably would have been like I so Full disclosure here, I have inadvertently trained myself with a therapist bladder. Because I'm so afraid of needing to go to the bathroom during a therapy session that I'll frequently like, make that run and pit stop. And I've since learned some excellent pod. This is an excellent podcast. There's an allergies podcast with Allie Ward, by the Way, Great Podcast where she met, talked with the urologist, and how that like, if you go to and I'm not a medical doctor, so nothing I said here. If I'm getting this wrong. Please don't take my advice, but the urologist she spoke with said like, if you go to the bathroom, when you feel that first too much or you take that quick Rd. she called it the road trip peak.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Take that just in case you're kind of training your bladder to signal faster. And I have over 30 plus years of doing therapy and that fear of being trapped in a therapy session needing to pee. I've kind of trained myself to have it, what I call it. The therapist flatter. I don't know if that's a thing or not, but and eight hours twice. That's that's terrific. Like that would be a personal goal of mine to make it only twice during an 8 hour flight, so I you know, kudos to him for that. I would have had. Gotten up at least three times during that flight.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. The only other kind of feedback on the Internet was there, there were a few people who said no assholes here flights suck for everybody. She's just venting. She's probably not really upset at you. You were just an easy target or something, maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like that interpretation because it allows us to assume some positive intents about her that. Perhaps missing someone, but I don't like passive comments. I think they're icky, but you know, I do think this, that that comment is probably.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right. They're icky.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Accurate is more reflective of the situation than truly her annoyance at him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

May have been may have been it. It is hard. I appreciate this this today because that reminds me that since I will be traveling before this is broadcast, reminding me to to, to try to be as show as much grace to my fellow travelers, travelers as I can and not and not get overly annoyed with them so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, come on. No.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. There was a comedian, Red Green always said. Like run this together, keep your stick on the ice, which always makes makes me smile so but. Anyway, thank you. Both again for ripping debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the intern. Forms. Remember, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black and white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, and in this case it's relatively mundane little things that sometimes can wind us up the most.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I thanks. Thanks so much. This has been a great time, Michael, really thanks for bringing us these and stay tuned for the bonus discussion to come after the credits and this is where Michael's also going to tell you to like and follow.

Host: Michael:

Exactly. I always tell you Lake and follow and share Veritas views and name of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits. Like Dan said, we'll have a bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan, it is Summer is a gorgeous day. What is your absolute favorite thing to do? During the summer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We live in Minnesota.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Summers, like 5 minutes long, you guys, they're really wonderful things in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and this year? Right. And sometimes summer doesn't even fall on the weekend. Sometimes summer falls on weekday, and then you're really screwed. So on those years where Summers fall on a weekend like it is today, it's beautiful just being outside and honestly, almost doesn't matter what you're doing. I'm looking forward to being outside. That's it. I got nothing. I got nothing more complicated than.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just look forward to being outside.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Enjoying the sunshine. The sky.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Because you know what? Simple pleasures ain't going to last. Ain't going to last year, Minnesota, and, you know, enjoying these moments to kind of file them away, to remember them for those moments that will come inevitably this winter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Well, you shared that you're traveling. So safe travels.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Yeah, Michael, take us out.

Host: Michael:

Thank you. Thank you all for tuning in and check us out next week for a whole other conversation. Have a good one.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review like and follow. Also give it a share. This helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic dual psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride and today I'm with doctor Dan Kessler. You know you're my favorite psychologist to consult with.

Host: Michael:

There for a moment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I really always get so much out of when we talk about cases together and I am really looking forward to chatting with you today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Absolutely, absolutely. And why we went into this crazy ass business plan to get it wasn't crazy as business. I shouldn't say that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It wasn't crazy. That's what this will be. Old news. By the time this airs, but we're at a year.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, been terrific. Been no. This has been has been a good ride and looking forward to continued years in business and continued opportunity to consult on our during our and by the way we're recording these on Sunday mornings everyone. So continued Sunday morning consultations.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not not podcast business. Cheers to that with my water glass.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, you have a situation for us, don't you?

Host: Michael:

I do, but before I tell you what the situation is for anybody who's new out there, if you don't know what a my asshole is, in short, someone posts a scenario and asks readers who's the asshole here and that's what we help. We're hoping to help determine at least. And if you're new, stick around through the credits. We always have some kind. In this conversation afterwards, neither Dan nor Gal are have read this or seen it. I haven't prompted them in any way, I promise. So let's go. I always like to see what they do. Cold anyway, so today's prompt is it's one that's been removed, which for me are always my. Favorite. I love that. Something has happened and they have removed. But we have a screen capture, so a reminder nothing on the Internet is ever actually gone. So this one the post is Am I the asshole for not feeling sorry for my wife when exactly what I told her would happen, happened?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. Yes. Wait, wait, I love Judge. As you know, I love judging books by their cover, but in this case, like, it sounds like he's going to say I told you so. And I told you so is always a dick move. Almost. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They always are. The move and even if you warn someone that it's going to happen, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel bad about it. Cause I'm assuming you were trying to win. Them because it was going. To be an unfortunate outcome, go ahead. And feel bad for them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. So I'm already, I'm already annoyed with them. I’m already annoyed with them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm annoyed, but. The headline is meant to annoy us, so please let me know as well Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. All right. We should, we should listen. To the story, yeah.

Host: Michael:

It's at least there to provoke, I assume so. Yeah. So this is the way we got. We have an old house. There's a 5 inch wide horizontal ledge on the stairway to the basement. My wife likes to store stuff there. I've been telling her for years. It's a bad idea. Whenever I go downstairs to do laundry or put away. Trees. I make sure that ledge is empty. She always says it's a handy place and she just means to clean up. I find stuff there all the time. Bottles, jars, open boxes of garbage bags, lighter fluid, you name it. She came in from the backyard when she was gardening to use the bathroom on her way out, she went downstairs for something. I heard her fall and then screamed. After we got home. From the hospital where they reattached her toe.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. We attached her toe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. Ohh this just reinforces my initial conclusion, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, keep going.

Host: Michael:

Yes. So we're we're back in the hospital, the toes back on which is good. I asked her why she thought that leaving her garden shears on that ledge was a good idea. She says that I'm being an asshole for saying I told you so. I never said those words. I just asked her why she did it. I feel very bad that she got injured. I feel terrible that she feels dumb for having. Leaving a heavy sharp object where it could easily fall. I feel shitty that I didn't see them in time to put them somewhere else to save her. None of that means. That what happened wasn't entirely, predictably, entirely her fault. Once again, for the cheap seats. I did not say I told you so am I the asshole for asking her about her thought process, though?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes. And you're sitting in the cheap seats doing so. Sorry. We're supposed to have more discussion, but that's just just because you don't say the words I told you so don't mean that your own intonation and intention isn't. I told you so, and I know you want to assume positive intent assuming that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean, I. No, wait. No. Wait, wait, wait, wait. But don't don't give me too much credit here. Don't assume positive intent. Here's the thing about this. Like, this is a great opportunity to talk about.

Speaker

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The words we say are not always what we say, right. You know, so often couples are in the middle of an argument and one of them will say I'm sorry, but you know, you did this and then the person comes back and says you never apologize. They said yes, I did. I said I'm sorry. No, you didn't. If you say I'm sorry, but if you say I'm sorry but and then go on about other things you've not said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Never.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry. On the other hand, if you say what I did, there was really wrong and I was out of line and I hurt you in doing so. And you don't say the words. I'm sorry you said. I'm sorry. Yeah, he never said I told you so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But he asshole said I told you so, and he is standing on this idea that this was predict. I'm sorry, I was horrified at the story because it didn't feel predictable. Yes, we knew something was going to fall, but garden shears that took off her toe, that is not predictable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no. I mean, yes, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

End up probably being too detailed about what he thought was predictable here, but this is a wildly unfortunate accident that could have really been anywhere. It just happened to be in this place of a perpetual disagreement between these two. Between these two individuals, and that's what he's standing on. Is this perpetual issue that we see often.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Up in our, in our offices between a couple. And then something happens around that potential issue. And then they then they have a bigger argument about something that they've already been arguing about over the years.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, this woman has just been through having a toe reattached. There may be a time down the road, like three years from now where they can laugh about it, but kids.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm looking at our post, who I really just need to not be because you're taking something incredibly serious and the host is going. What the hell I even what the hell?

Host: Michael:

I'm. I'm live. I'm live reading the comments right now and it's hilarious and listening to you, I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Don't do that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, it's it. It's like, are you? I mean like, like there may be a time to have this discussion but but and but probably not and immediately on coming back I I just I Full disclosure I've never had any body part chopped off and reattached. So I don't actually know what it's like to lose a toe and have it resewn on, but I imagine it's a traumatic event. You don't know if you don't lose the toe you don't have you going to get back once you get it? Pack. Is it going to take you? That lose that toe. How much pain you get a minute? How long? Like she's dealing with a lot right now. And for him to even bring up anything about it being anything but an accident is awful. 100% awful. And you don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. Your spouse to have your back, no matter what. When something awful like this. Happens no matter if there was another judgment call you could have made. You need your spouse unwaveringly on your side. That that response is a fully empathetic man. I am so sorry that happened to you. Is there anything? I can do to help. It's not till Monday morning, quarterback. Where you set the shears.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And they both know that he said it over and over again. There may come a time down the road. Like I can imagine they're going, you know, honey, you were right. I should never have put this year put this years there and then. And then his response should have been. Yeah, but you had no idea this kind of thing would ever happen. It's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Exactly. You ask what your thought process is, so parental. In a partnering relationship, what was your thought process? I might ask my children that, but that is the coded way that he said I told you so. Now defend your thinking.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What were you? What were you thinking?

Speaker

OK. Well, she she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Was thinking the same thing. She was always thinking, which is this is a highly convenient place to set something and I will pick it up on my way out. That's all that. It was a very simple and predictable thought process. So this is saying that for years with. Success. But I think the unfortunate thing, but I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I really think that this is a great opportunity to to lean into how often we think we say one thing, but we don't say something else like, not only did he say I didn't say I told you so, but then he doubled down on it and tell I told you so and tripled down by saying for those of you in the cheap seats. Which, by the way, earns him another little asshole mark. In addition to the first one. For those of you in the cheap seats, I didn't say that like he's really looking for the Internet to validate the hell out of him. No, you didn't say. I told you so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's gotten so much trouble with his wife about this, and now he's looking. For someone to say no man, it's OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He said. I told you so. He didn't use the words and this is so, so, so important. Not using the words doesn't mean you didn't say the thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Well, there's one one thing.

Host: Michael:

So I I have a there. There is a. There's an important question before I tell you what the Internet said.

Speaker

And you left.

Host: Michael:

That I think it's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I'm curious because you.

Host: Michael:

Interesting. So there's one really not kind comment, but it was funny and I couldn't help but laugh at it. Sorry, but I'll get to what the Internet said in a second, but one of the questions that comes up is an interesting side conversation, which is essentially.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Were like cracking up on that.

Host: Michael:

How do you recover from a moment like this and? Because you will for the rest of your lives, as long as you live in that space. See that ledge or see her toe or whatever, and as a couple, how do you move forward after something like this has happened? Do you have thoughts or comments on that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I do, but go ahead cause I've been sort of like charging full speed ahead on this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One well, you know, I I think when you realize that you have responded poorly, you then move off your triple down spot and really fall on your sword. I'm sorry, I really should have been. I would have liked to have thought I could have been more sympathetic in that.

Speaker

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Moment I really failed you. I'm. I'm really sorry about that. And once that relationship repair maybe has been made, then maybe you talk about as a couple how you want to use that ledge. Maybe just understand that's great thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Maybe not. Yeah, maybe not. This is this is how I mean. I I I the phrase Gayle, you use the exact phrase I was thinking, which is fall on your sword we've talked about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I might have heard you used it once or twice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we've talked before about the elements of an apology. I wronged you. I had a responsibility to you and I wronged you as a result of that wrong, you were harmed. And this is what I'll do differently. These are the core elements of an apology. The words.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And if you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The last one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but the, the and and the clear like the thing that's not this often surprises people. The thing that you don't need to say an apology is. I'm sorry because it's already encapsulated in. I screwed up in screwing up. I hurt you and that's really important to acknowledge. And but the thing that's never an apology is you're well. Where we talk this all the time. Please forgive me. No, you never make an ask US on. You're apologizing to. So how do you repair this? You completely and. I see John Cleese in my head right now, hanging upside down in the movie A fish called Wanda, saying I apologize unreservedly. You haven't seen the movie. It's worthwhile watching the 1980s been a long time, but, I mean, this is where you just apologize. And through this, like, I completely screwed up. I wronged you deeply and powerfully in your time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's been a long time. It's been long.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And I like to think of an apology as a gift that you give to someone else and you are presenting that without expectation of a gift in return, which is their forgiveness now. They may choose to gift you their forgiveness, but that is for them to. Then acknowledge or or decide upon. And I think in the course of an apology, a good apology discussion. If you know, do you forgive me? It can be. It can be a question and that the other I think I think it can be a question. We can disagree on. This not will you but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We'll agree on it. Will this? No, we will disagree because I don't think there should be any. Discussion of the acceptance of the apology, at least not at the time of making. Maybe some point down the road. There's a place for it, but I think that we work. We concentrate too much on forgiveness as part of this process, and forgiveness sometimes can't come pretty.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But here's why I want to keep that, which is if you have missed something and you've fallen on the wrong asshole sword, you need to be told. Hey, man, that was the wrong asshole sword. You fell on. That actually doesn't help me. And so the the.

Speaker

Long.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The request of or asking checking in. Do you forgive me? Allows for an opportunity to say I heard you apologize for this, and while I might appreciate that that's actually not what really hurt me, it was this aspect of it. And so there's an opportunity for correction about the other person's assumption because you know, a lot of times we get into these arguments based on assumptions. We're not checking in and we're not actually having a dialogue about it. Maybe we've missed the mark.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I'm still going to disagree with you because I think that I still don't want to do anything. Thing that smacks of a request for forgiveness. And do you? Do you forgive me? Sort of sounds like a request for forgiveness. How about this? Will you accept this substitution? Did I did I? Did I fully get to all the ways in which I. Hurt you? Did I?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would absolutely accept that, yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Did I fully address all the ways that I hurt you? Because now you're not asking for anything back. You're saying the person might say? No, you didn't. You addressed this and this, but you totally missed the boat on this other thing. And I think you can do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That without asking for forgiveness, I I totally agree. I love that. I think that's beautiful. And what's that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I won the argument. I won the argument. I told you so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I want to take a moment to address the response. Yeah, please do not respond with. It's OK when someone gets an apology, it's not OK. They've literally just wronged you, and they've apologized for it. Your answer can be. Thank you. Because again, you need a gift from another person, but not it's OK. It diminishes the whole thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We don't want to do that. We really want to lean into the fact that this person has made a repair. And you know that. You. That you've accepted that and that can end that episode of disagreement. Hopefully. Now, that's really what's let me move on. An apology is not necessarily the same as moving on, right? An apology is simply acknowledging responsibility for a regrettable incident, but it doesn't help us necessarily move on. It's the first step, but not completion.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is and I think that when we make, we do that and I and I, I have done that from time to time like then that like, oh fuck, yeah, this is totally my fault. I'm I messed up and. And I will say that like part of me wants that immediate. Like it's OK, honey, or. Yeah, I I forgive you. The other person is usually not in a place to do that at that point because you have fallen on your sword because you have taken responsibility. There's still anger in the room. There's still frustration. And then you have to then your next step as the apologize or in this moment. Is to be able to sit with them still being angry with you because when someone says, yeah, honey, I screw. Up after an argument after done some really terrible it doesn't make the feelings.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Go away. No, it doesn't. It does allow you to, I think, move through the cycle of the feeling that you're having and increases the chances that you're going to get to a softer, more accepting place. But you're right, it might not be in that moment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now it probably won't be in that moment because once I mean one of the things we don't, we like emotions. Emotions turn more like boat. This is a terrible analogy I just came up with, but the thing about like when you turn a boat like you don't like and it just turns like especially a big boat, you turn it in like you've made the turn. But then like it and because our emotions have this pressure that stays with us. And when we're pissed because we've been wronged, that apology.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Speaker

Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it's still going to.

Host: Michael:

Cool.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mostly for me, a really good apology though really can bring me feeling closer to the other person and it does help shift