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Today, Dr. Daniel Kessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride are joined by Dr. Bill Hoekstra. Dr. Hoekstra is a board-certified psychologist and licensed clinician in the state of Minnesota, with over 24 years of experience in clinical psychology. He is PSYPACT authorized to provide psychological care to patients in 42 states,  offering virtual visits for a variety of mental health services. Dr. Hoekstra holds a Diplomate in Behavioral Sleep Medicine (DBSM) and has specialized training in diagnosing and treating sleep disorders such as insomnia, circadian rhythm issues, and shift work-related sleep challenges. His expertise extends to trauma psychology, forensic psychological assessment, and evidence-based therapies including Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). Throughout his career, he has worked in diverse settings, including community mental health clinics, outpatient facilities, and county courts, delivering patient-centered care. Dr. Hoekstra’s practice philosophy emphasizes creating a safe, non-judgmental environment to foster personal growth and help patients achieve their mental health goals. You can find him on his webpage, https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/, and on Instagram @themoodandsleepclinic 

On this episode, the participants mentioned:

• David Burns “cost/benefit analysis”, which can be found here: https://feelinggood.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/4feae-blame-cba-completed-version.pdf

• Or, in his book: Feeling Good: Overcome Depression and Anxiety with Proven Techniques, https://amzn.to/4fln1Hh

• Dr. William Hoekstra can be found at his private practice, the Mood and Sleep Clinic: https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/drhoekstra

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining. I'm your host, Michael. I'm joined by our dynamic trio of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride, and of course I'm here with Doctor Daniel Kessler. But we have brought Doctor Bill Hoekstra back. Is. Trained in sleep work as well as trauma, and who knew? He also has a forensic background. You can find him at the Mood and sleep Clinic in his private practice among some of his other interesting pursuits. Welcome, Bill.

Host: Michael:

Thank you.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And again, I’m Dan Kessler. Gayle and I run a Veritas Psychology Partners together. We're really happy that Bill is willing to come back for a second episode, an encore episode, or after our first one. And as I mentioned, near the end of the first one I was like, I was like what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You didn't go run screaming. He didn't go run screaming.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, he didn't, he. I thought, gosh, I go see this guy for therapy. Like this is good. I'm. I'm glad you were willing to come back and endure another episode with us. So thanks so much. Michael, you brought us a problem to resolve.

Host: Michael:

I. Yes, I'm full of problems apparently. Welcome all three of you for any of the newbies out there. First, if you don't know what we're talking about, essentially what I've done is I've gone on the Internet and I found somebody who posted a scenario asking who's the asshole here, and generally the readers help answer those questions. In this case, we have 3 psychologists that are going to weigh in. It's not a professional opinion, it's just kind of like talking through some thoughts and ideas and that kind of thing and. Where the post is specific, I've tried to make a little more discreet. And if you're new, stick around through the end. Always have some kind of bonus conversation. Not sure it'll be this. OK. So the headline this time is, am I the asshole for refusing to give up my dog? For my fiance's allergic daughter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, you've stunned 3 psychologists into silence. That is well chosen conundrum. Thank you, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, these are tough, tough, tough. When there's a, you know without, without hearing anymore, I'm going to go ahead and, you know, jump in because I like to do that. There's so many problems where there isn't necessarily a clear like most of our couple, many of our couples. So those exact conflicts that don't have a absolute right or absolute wrong, although perhaps we're going to hear something that's going to tell us is an absolute right or wrong. Maybe I should like, let's do let's do the problem. Michael, before we, before we render anything further.

Host: Michael:

For sure. Well, here are the details we got. The poster is 34 female and she has a golden retriever. The dog has been with her for seven years and according to her, he's more than a pet. He's family. Her fiance is 37 year old male. Recently moved in with his nine year old daughter Emil, the daughter is severely allergic to dogs, not the take Benadryl kind of your find. Kind of allergy. She actually breaks out in hives and has serious breathing issues. Issues the fiance knew about Max from the beginning and when they were dating, he swore the dog wouldn't be a problem because they didn't live with her at the time. But now that they've moved in, it's a constant issue. The daughter’s allergies flare up. She's here and now the fiance is demanding that she re homes her dog. For the daughters safety, the poster has mentioned a number of different compromises. Keeping the dog out of the stepdaughter's. Constant deep cleaning investing in air purifiers, even boarding the dog part time when the daughter is over. But none is good enough for the fiance he. She needs to put the daughter 1st and get rid of the dog entirely. He also made it clear that if we don't, we might need to rethink the wedding. Told them flat out I'm not re homing the dog. I love all of them, but the dog is family and has been with her long. I'm not dumping them like an old piece of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

The fiance thinks she's being selfish and that she's not ready to be a step mom. His family keeps piling on, saying that she's prioritizing a dog over a child, and now she's the villain. Her phones are split, and so she's coming out saying, is she the asshole here for choosing the dog over the daughter?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So are we. First, are we human? First select the human beings. Don't walk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Man.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. That smacks of so much control and manipulation to me on behalf of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I mean.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Man moving in, who knew she had the dog for so long and knew he had a daughter who was allergic. Unless we're finding out that there's like, a surprise allergy. I don't think that's the case.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think what seems like the surprise in defense of the dad here is that the degree of the daughters allergic reaction like I think this is one of those situations where you don't know how difficult this is until you move in and you go, oh shit, this is. A problem?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I don't think it's the problem of the OPiate home. It was. They clearly they want to move forward with their relationship because they have a wedding day. But this moving in prior to the wedding and then discovering the dog of the problem is not really a problem of. It's a problem of this dad and I presume the dog is only there part time because she's got a biological mother somewhere else or another parent who's taken care of her. Other portion of the time. And I think it's for her biological parents to decide. What is the best option. I mean, what option could be that she only visits during the day or she does spend less time at that house and then I know it's kind of sucking in the dead doesn't give that option. Yeah, there's just a lot of options in demand that someone get rid of a pet seems.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm not comfortable with that, especially because he's the one moving in. I feel like it would be different if we massaged these facts and flipped it around and she and the dog moved into the daddy's house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I feel like that might be. Hey I need you to, you know, to rehome the dog or or move back out but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What's the?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This setup is really problematic, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again, what's the level of the allergy as far as like is this life? Is it just like like a like she gets a little sneezy? Like, what's the what's the?

Host: Michael:

Breathing issues with relationship to it doesn't say life threatening, but it's not something Benadryl is happening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sometimes relationships don't work out for no fault of our own, but because there is. That makes the. Create a basic incompatibility and I'm not sure if the dog is that basic in fits that category or. We certainly see that category in like one person desperately wants to have children and can't imagine life without children and the other person. Would absolutely never want to have. There's not necessarily a compromise. You can't necessarily have kids part time and this is one of those ones where both people are saying this is not a compromise I can. Now the question is like so the Internet started saying and we're kind of saying, well, maybe one of them should.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I don't think one of them necessarily. Should make a compromise on this. I mean you like coming to your point. Maybe this isn't the right relationship for you, because. There are differences. This isn't a right or wrong. I think we're really feeling stumped because I mean, as a person I would really struggle to rehome the dog and the amount of stress that it would cause on this dog in sort of the middle of its life. Suppose it's got, you know, probably another half of its life to go, which is a long time to put. Relationship on hold. So we have some apps absolute non negotiables on the table for. And so to your point, Daniel. The right couple to kind of proceed forward through kind of no fault of their own. What I do think is happening here, that's a little bit problematic and unfortunately it's one of those things that we pick up on a lot of times is this ROM com phenomenon, right. We're not having peaceful, thorough conversations. Kind of slinging out Sol. Batting them away and going fine, you know, and kind of it feels like it's got a bigger sort of drama feel that's going to feel that ROM com as opposed to having a really good, thoughtful conversation about these differences. I suspect that the emotions are high because. Because these two people probably do really love each other and in another world with other circumstances, maybe they'd make a really great couple going forward and they're really stuck on gosh, this feels really big and we don't know how to do this even though we have really. And positive feelings otherwise.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I think part of the piece I was responding to initially was this weight that he was putting on the OP for bearing the burden of the problem. And so rather than looking at it dynamically, it was maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother, maybe blah blah blah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So like for me? Like those are really powerful black and white accusations to throw around so and again what we don't know is what is the development of? It would be hard for me to imagine that he didn't know that there was an allergy on board prior to them deciding to kind of cohabitate, and so Imagine the daughter's been to the house. Before. I just for me that felt really, I don't want to use gaslighting because that's that's a be a little overuse term, but it it felt really unfair that all of them gifted so abruptly. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bill, I'm going to. I'm going to. Sorry, Gayle, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But no, I was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Said Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To say that that's not what I was saying. Were those high emotions like I think we're?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like I think you're not fit to be a stepmom because that was, you know, that that lacks that depth of conversation. I like the way you put it, that bearing an an equal amount of weight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I. I want to rescind what I previously said. Then Bill 'cause, you've convinced me here, 'cause. My first thought is he's not being manipulative. Learned something new. And now he's setting a. But as you remind me of that comment, like maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother yet. Like like and now one of these we don't find out it when people write these. The unfortunate things we don't find out what she said before he said that like, did he say like did did he did? Did she say to him like if you really loved?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You would you would accept my dog. And he said, well, maybe, you know, maybe you're not really, you know, like, was this in the midst of argument? How did it come out? But as an isolated comment, that comment really feels manipulative. You're absolutely right. It feels like. Like if you maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother. And I do want to be the fly on the wall that hears what? What preceded that comment because it might have been equally awful. But that's a pretty awful comment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I also wonder what level of influence the biological mother's having from the sidelines. You know, sometimes you talk about minor characters.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So is she really upset about the exposure here and in service of trying to maintain a long term relationship with someone with whom you are no longer romantically? Attached to right, you know this parenting and they've got a. They've got what, another nine years of having to figure out this. Sometimes a biological parent may take half, feel like they have to take a stand because they're between two people. And it's not just the daughter, but it might be the biological mom. Saying, hey, if you don't da da da da da and she may be pulling some strings on the other side and we just don't know. Right. We just don't know.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can. I'm not saying it does, but you know, if we massage facts, I can see that fitting in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. And we and we do love to massage hacks in these situations because we we don't always have them. I could totally see that. You're bringing our daughter over. Where like our daughter is coming. Our like you're around like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your office, right? That. Gosh, my my former partner is saying these things to me, demanding. That and you know, we even write some of this stuff into divorce decrees.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. So if I shift gears like that was my human. And so like if I shifted to the clinician, so I'll just quickly put on like a professionalism thing like for me, I would be really interested kind of like to your point both of you like, so if we had a stenographer like let's read back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

The language all the way leading up to this moment. I would be really interested in hearing how have other problems been solved by this. Covering kind of get thrown at each other, like what does that history look like?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There there therapy.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Is this a once in a lifetime kind of moment for them, or is this a regular kind of event and to me, just from a communications viewpoint that would make? Really interesting to see how these things flesh out. Sure this. This can't be the first rodeo for both of them to be in a. Like this?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What a wonderful question. A wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I’m mad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How do you resolve?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I asked that and I didn't think about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. How how what is your result? What is your template for resolving the really tough questions. Do you? How do you as a couple navigate those those challenges when you have them in the past and they go unworked on? They get like what that is. That's why I didn't think. That damn that is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As a guest to make it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is why that is probably why.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Three hits.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Three headed monster. Now, I don't know.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

What kind?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of therapy. So. I mean, this one's a tough one to render a verdict. Because there are so many deep emotions, it's quite possible that everyone here is being to some degree reasonable and maybe said some things they shouldn't have said. And this is a really tough problem to work out because you can't both have a dog and not have a dog, and you can't have a dog and not have a dog at the same time. You know, there may have been some really horrible things said on on multiple fronts here that exacerbated this. Some of the solutions that I think OP mentioned just you know, only have the daughter over or some of the like only have the daughter of a partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cleaning and keep cleaning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, only having the daughter of during the day. Like as a parent.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Those are really big concessions, honestly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I can't see myself being like, oh, yeah, I just have my have my kid over for a few hours during the day and not like that wouldn't. That wouldn't go with me as a parent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And rehoming the dog is not an absolute unreasonable. It's just that the OP doesn't want to do it. You know, I certainly have seen situations where people say, OK, I can no longer have this dog in my home. And so my father was gracious enough to take the animal so I can still visit. I still have. Rights as a word of the dog. But you know OP doesn't want to give up that that dog to 10 year. Anyone which then we have to discuss back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Certainly we've all.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

The dollar. I mean, they're almost the same age.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fair. Yeah, it'd be interesting to hear what the relationship between the dog and the daughter is. Just because a child is allergic doesn't mean they don't want to love them and hug them and have them forever. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And certainly we've all worked with people who are grieving the loss of a PAT and we hear this comment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I wonder how his daughters know about this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Heard this comment many times, like not. But they don't have the pet more than their parents. I'm not saying that, but people sometimes say this is harder for me than when I lost a human loved one.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That's right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like like, no, I wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't have chose that, you know, but but but like, like when my parent died, they weren't in my life day in and day out. And they'd been very ill for awhile when but this. But the dog is there every single day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thinking wrongly in the same way the dog was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is like emotionally harder. I've heard people say this is emotionally harder for me. Then then it was when I lost this other loved one. Who's a. So I think it's really, really I wouldn't want to underestimate the power of of a pet that a person is very close to and it's, you know, help them through really tough times. So I've been a constant companion. This one's tough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are we ready to render some verdict or is the verdict there is no verdict?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I just want to say really quickly like so, just as therapists like all three of us know how easy it is to have a problem like this come across. Plate and then we have a. What kind of moment where we?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Look.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

How dare he say that? And so I just so value like both of your opinions kind of just walking back and doing the hard job of seeing the other perspective and just making sure we don't have that initial human response.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Get rid of that guy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, yeah. I mean, you know definitely don't want that in your clinical office, but I you know I and my training and Dan and I've talked about this is it's OK to be a human in therapist's office, like in a human response wouldn't be like you. Take tell the guy to take a hike, but I certainly would be a human.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And go, Oh my gosh. Like, wow, that really.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I you know, I'm. I'm sorry that this has become an issue for you and you know, happy to work on this. But I think my initial surprise and maybe a little bit aghast might come through.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Without telling her what to do for sure. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The level of complexity here is one that I you know I'm I am holding open the possibility that OP is a total asshole and has handled this really badly. I'm holding open the possibility that OP is just has handled this incredibly well. And is doing it perfectly and vice versa like. I don't feel like I can say one way or the other on this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So not enough information for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't feel for me. There's not enough information because because we we just don't know all the conversation that led up to certainly we I can say definitively that that, that, that the this couple is not necessarily working great together on this problem and at least one of. Has said some pretty awful things to the other. I don't know both of them. Not so. There's a problem here, but that problem looks like it sounds like it's a relationship issue, not that someone's an asshole. Although it is quite possible that one of them is and that we just don't have enough information here. Other thoughts?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think the probability of someone sucking here is not 0.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That is true. There's room for growth, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's. That's where my verdict is, yeah.

Host: Michael:

In fact, I would say interestingly, I mean there were different people on the Internet, said various things. But the general consensus was in fact, everybody sucks here. So the Internet was very happy to point a finger at everybody except for the dog and the stepdaughter. They were very clear to those two are out. But this comment basically is kind of the gist of what everybody on the Internet was saying, which is what the shit did you guys think was going to happen?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

You plan out anything at all. Would. Date, let alone get engaged to, let alone let a man move into your. House with a daughter who's severely allergic to your furry family member. Why would he date and get engaged to a woman with a dog while his child is severely allergic? The two of you discuss this how? Why did you just move forward with having that important conversation? All these compromises you mentioned are naive at best. Perhaps delusional. Girl can cannot be around the dog. Period. Are too mutually exclus. Of things same for him thinking that you can. Give up the. Delusional. Pick the dog and learn to think better about who you date and get engaged to. What the shit? shit sake.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm going to render that commenter just. Come on. It's OK that you didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now the thing I agree with is that in these situations, typically you're having a number of overnights, and before you move in, you're very often in this alignment of spending a lot of time at the house that you're moving into. And one would think that the daughter would. And we would have seen this. But I'm not at that level of that, that summer or poster. Think that poster might be overstepping. Just a little.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I'll agree with the whole point of the naivety of didn't you talk about these things already? You know that part resonates with me like communication. So fundamental.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is the other thing that I think about is that sometimes the reality of a thing is so different than the fantasy of the thing. And we, we we like don't know how it's going to be until we're actually. And I and when you add in the early phases of a relationship and the new relationship energy that can cloud our judgement. I can totally see this couple thinking. Work that. We'll work that out like like, like it'll be fine. Love each. It's really terrific in this early phase of relationship. Human beings don't think clearly.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I see that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can do.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Money, faith. Children like you know things, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

See and I think that where these folks may have made the mistake is before the relationship started. For Dad to have in mind, like I can't date someone who has a dog because that would harm like that. That like because he didn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They didn't know the level of the allergy until she's. For a prolonged period of time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. So I'll give him that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

According to the post.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, so now we know for future relationships for him that he should just rule out anyone who you know and I think. And I don't think that's unreasonable to say. You know, I'm like, I just can't date someone who lives with a dog because my kids have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kids allergic and. And I. Could totally see this couple finding themselves in this situation, so I'm going to disagree with the vehemence with which that. That, that, that person responded because like I totally see this happening and people just not realizing that it's that big. Deal. And you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would love to see these two adults, at least one of them has been around the block and A and a well, maybe not. Take that. I'm locked up, but coming backward. Two adults here in their mid to late 30s. I hope you would have enough experience in the world to realize.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We don't have to get married. We can continue in a deeply committed relationship. We can live in separate homes, which will protect the dog. We don't have to get married. Can stay. And you don't like it? You just let me take Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like it. Now I like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And as you say and people. It and it works fine and then once the daughter maybe has left the home and isn't routinely living with them. Then you know, maybe they choose to get. It's not ideal, but it's a way to to move forward in a relationship and keep the relationship without, you know, telling one or the other to take a hike and honoring the daughter's allergy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I think that there I think when people get into seeking a relationship, they're often seeking a partner to share their lives.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With in a deeper way than, no in in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You look like they can do that. They can. Can do continue to do sleepover. Can go to his place.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It didn't share their lives together in a way that they are sharing their lives on on the daily together in the same home.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There are lots of circumstances that prevent that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It. Or, you know, some some other factor that keeps you in separate households for a long period of time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But for we've talked about this in previous podcasts sometimes, like we can say that's a reasonable thing. Someone might say for my relationship that's not something I'm willing to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not willing to. We have a relationship. Part. I want a full time relationship or not or no and that's not an unreasonable thing to say.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

It's a personality match, but that's the thing, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just throwing it out there as an option.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sorry. Go ahead. We over talk to you. Sorry.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh no, that's right. Just. I agree with both of you, but like it has to be a personality match like you can't, obviously. Gayle, I don't hear you prescribing that to this couple. These are. And so like, we just wonder like there's that, that authoritative like shape up or ship out kind of thing that that we think we heard coming from one side to the other and we don't know how. That maybe, but if you know, have they worked through all of the different permutations? If they're important enough to each other, have they considered those? And I appreciate Gayle, what you're saying is, can you work through those and they may have the personalities that this is not it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I think sometimes our job is to bring lots of different creative ideas and then evaluate them, right. And if the client says no, that's really not going to work for me or for my partner.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fine. But at least we've we have created an opportunity to step back from the emotional, you know, shape up our ship out and think, think flexibly about this. Then why this would or wouldn't? What are the costs and the benefits of each of these potential solutions and allowing someone to come to a conclusion? Their own or in this case, hopefully together. Come to an amenable conclusion.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. You hear the echoes of a radical acceptance in their, like, kind of accepting the problem for what it is and learning how flexible given.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Frankly, I was in my. I was thinking of the David Burns work and the CDA stuff that cost benefit analysis.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So yeah, I think we, you know, we're influenced by a lot of therapists and creative ways to think about it. But I think that's our charge is to is to think creatively and us to accept whatever the client decides is best for them. Don't walk in their shoes. We don't live their lives. Don't. You know, we don't really get involved in that way in their relationships. They have to make those decisions for themselves. Can't see the you know an answer that might be really workable right in front of them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With this brought to me a little bit was my previous training many years ago as a family mediator and moving these folks in the mediation where they talk about moving people from from positions to interests that these people have a position both in a position you can't have. Dog and live with me. I have to have the dog and you have to. Have to find the solution so that that's their POS. Taken, but what's their? Well, their interests are are are living together, not harming, not not harming the daughter and not wanting to give up the dog. How do we or not wanting to take the dog out? My life. So is there a using looking at these? Is there a solution that works for not a compromise? But a solution that allows everyone to win, and if there's not, that's when they go. OK, there's not a solution, but to start from that position from to move away from this entrenched position of this has to be the way it is and move towards what can we. What solutions? We find together as a couple as we navigate this and getting back to Bill's question like how do you resolve the differe. Difficult things if they're resolvable.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to disagree. Everyone's fucked here. I don't. I. I don't think I don't think to say if the Internet says everyone sucks here. Don't agree with that, but I'm open to the possibility that that's true.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

More information.

Host: Michael:

Right, yeah. Well, can I throw in one other kind of comment so that it was a smaller contingent, but it did say not the asshole and then this poster kind of encapsulated that idea which was. I agree with. It's time to at which is the fiance's name I came out later in the post. It is time to rethink the. He's not putting his child first over your dog. He is putting his child first over you as a father. Entitled to do that. He is not entitled to do the my way or the Highway act as a partner. You're free to evaluate it. And the life you want in a marriage the other way to look at this is to remove the conflict from. Picture and look at his actions. He moved into your. Now he has unilaterally making demands. Is a red flag. Additional concerns this is. A good look for him either way. Are some other scenarios? A dad who is. So clueless, he has no idea how bad his daughter's allergies are. A dad willing to disrupt his daughter's life by moving in with someone instead of having the OP move in with him and having that new environment be a hazard to her health. And three. A partner willing to put his daughter's well-being at risk just to get his way. None of these are great. The asshole. Not you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't know enough to say that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can feel like you're there. Assumption there a little strong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But it's. But it's also possible. I mean, you know we we've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is there probabilities greater than 0?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. Possibility is greater than 0, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, great.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Really, this is this was. This was one that really, really brought up a lot of great conversation. Appreciate your your bringing this challenge to us.

Host: Michael:

All three of you for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often, you know, Shades of Grey and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And thank you, Bill, for reminding us that we are humans and therapists and both reactants belong in the room at times.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we. We do certainly have those human reactions, and sometimes we govern them and sometimes we use them.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Mm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so I also appreciate that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

And thank you for having. It's just so fun to be in this room and kind of imagine myself as like you guys as my therapist and I just, I so value your opinion. Just it's it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Run.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Amazing to hear. Like other people's ideas bouncing off when it's, you know, you in your own all the time. It's really it's awesome to have a 300 monster, as it were, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, it's a lot of fun. And Michael was asking me a little bit about you. And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I've known Bill long time. Here's my metric. If I went to a conference, I would actively sit next to Bill. The conference. That's always true for everybody. So.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

No, Richard.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I appreciate your professionalism and your. Yeah, it's been great. Thanks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, likewise. Definitely like.

Host: Michael:

Well, please follow and share your test views and the podcast platforms, the neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation will be. On the flip side of the credits?

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So for our bonus conversation, I would like to ask you some this or that questions. They're totally just kind of random things I came up with. Going to ask both Bill and Dan to weigh in. Probably alternate who goes first just. Make sure that Dan also experiences the lovely wait hot spotlight and the urgency of having to answer. All right, Bill, I'm going to go with you first. Or that ping pong or pickleball.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ping pong. I never played pickleball.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I. So I don't know why. Haven't either.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Not just more active.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pick up, then play the golf. Pickelball?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I don't, but I played tennis before, but it just feels more. Ping pong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Well, you should come over sometime. Play ping. I'll see you more active. Especially against our youngest son, boy, he's a boy.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan mountains, or Desert Bill mountains. Why mountains guys?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Hounds. Hounds. Oh yeah, I would say it's it's a, it's a challenge to go up. Like going up things and so it. I love deserts too, but I love the challenge of going. And then seeing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I yeah, I've hiked in both. And it found that. The mountain hike to be. I don't know. You know what his his thing is though.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

This also.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've only ever hiked in a. In a mountainous desert. So. So how about mountainous desert? I have. I have hiked in a mountainous desert before and I really. It was enjoyable, but I like the trees better. There you go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. My next one is acquired by our Intrepid podcast host. Yes, you, Michael, who asked me to propose this one and I thought it was a bit preposterous at first, but I want you to hang with me. Because this or that is, you have to choose to keep one.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

OK, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The. So this or that, do you choose mosquitoes or?

Host: Michael:

Thanks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For both of you. OK, I think that was Michael's the choice too, because they were more avoidable. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, they. And you manage those easier.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You don't. About if you're sitting. You know, if you're sitting on your back deck in the early evening in the summer time, you can avoid the ticks aren't bothering you, right?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Long as you don't get that kind, that gives you the protein problem where you can't eat. Meat anymore like so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, that's problematic. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Let's. Where are we? At hummus or salsa?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh, there's so many kinds of salsa in humans. I'm going to say hummus.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Yeah, yeah, I love hummus. OK1 more. Oh, Dan, this is. I'm going to serve this one to you. I think I know what Aaron's is going to be. Or Curry spice.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

It's a tie, but curry spice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And again, there's different kinds of Curry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Although they both have, they both have their place though.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We do. Do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. So maybe it's not a Goodyear or they both have their place. I have. I have Curry once every couple of weeks and I have a tire like. Almost every day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

On the days you don't have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Curry almost every day. Pretty much, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, thank you for playing. It's fantastic. I told you they were a little bit out there at random, but they're a great way. Kind of get to know us on that human level, absolutely.

Host: Michael:

Always like it. And you know, honestly, the mosquito and tick thing like I was thinking of, you know, the inconveniences of ticks and certainly the problems that go along with them. Mosquitoes are mass murderers. I mean, they kill like a million people a. So, like, fuck those guys like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They do.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

They do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. shit those guys.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They need to go.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks again for joining us, Bill, and thanks everyone for tuning in. In again next week for a whole another episode of the who’s the asshole?

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, Dr. Daniel Kessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride are joined by Dr. Bill Hoekstra. Dr. Hoekstra is a board-certified psychologist and licensed clinician in the state of Minnesota, with over 24 years of experience in clinical psychology. He is PSYPACT authorized to provide psychological care to patients in 42 states,  offering virtual visits for a variety of mental health services. Dr. Hoekstra holds a Diplomate in Behavioral Sleep Medicine (DBSM) and has specialized training in diagnosing and treating sleep disorders such as insomnia, circadian rhythm issues, and shift work-related sleep challenges. His expertise extends to trauma psychology, forensic psychological assessment, and evidence-based therapies including Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). Throughout his career, he has worked in diverse settings, including community mental health clinics, outpatient facilities, and county courts, delivering patient-centered care. Dr. Hoekstra’s practice philosophy emphasizes creating a safe, non-judgmental environment to foster personal growth and help patients achieve their mental health goals. You can find him on his webpage, https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/, and on Instagram @themoodandsleepclinic 

Bill, Dan, and Gayle mention a couple different things in this episode:

• Weezer's “Undone (The Sweater Song)”:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLawKw3Qgig

• Gayle's Meryn Cadell's "The Sweater": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFfy0dMKIi8

• And Bill mentioned: Resmaa Menakem's My Grandmother's Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies https://amzn.to/4ixdj7L

• Dr. William Hoekstra can be found at his private practice, the Mood and Sleep Clinic: https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/drhoekstra

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

And all right. Thanks for joining us. Your host, Michael. I'm joined by our dynamic today trio of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride. As always, I'm here with Doctor Daniel Kessler, my business partner at Veritas Psychology Partners, and we are thrilled to bring you Doctor Bill Hoekstra. Who is a psychologist who trained at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology? He, like Dan, has a diplomate in behavior sleep. This means he's done a shit ton of extra training in sleep and is really knowledgeable about that. He also does a lot of work around trauma. He's done some EMDR training and some art training which are specific trauma treatments. Bill. Really. We're glad to have you here. Thanks for taking time out to join us today.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Thanks for having me. So appreciate that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Michael, you have a conundrum. A query or something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Problem an issue a thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Problem an issue a thing. The three of us are going to take. Could you maybe give us a little bit of info about what we're what we're talking about?

Host: Michael:

Today for. Well, first of all, welcome everybody for any of the newbies out there who don't know what am I? The asshole is. In short, someone posts a scenario and says. Who's the asshole here? And that's what we're going to hope to figure out. Where there's any identifiable information in the post, we've changed those to be a little more discreet. And if you're new, stick around through the credits and because we always have a bonus conversation. I'm not sure. That'll be about, but we'll find out. Neither Dan nor Bill nor Gill know what I'm going to ask them about today. So let's go. Today's post is usually I try to find ones that have lots of comments. One weirdly doesn't have very much, so I'm hoping we can help them out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think it's important, Michael, that you choose something terribly unpopular so.

Host: Michael:

Have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It is a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

More fun? No, absolutely. Let's let's roll.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. So the topic is, am I the asshole for wanting my boyfriend to fix his sleep schedule?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That's interesting.

Host: Michael:

And I haven't really seen very many about sleep. So I was like, alright, this one piques my interest so okay, it worked.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It was interesting. Yeah. And since we all work with sleep, this is going to be really interesting.

Host: Michael:

Hopefully and maybe we can give him. Good. So OK, so the poster is female. Her boyfriend, male, both early 20s and they've been together. A little. Two years and right now they're in a long distance situation. They're both students, and so, she says throughout a relationship we both had semi fucked up sleep schedules, but always fixed them right after. Unfortunately not sure exactly what that means, but you guys have probably dealt with some messed up sleep schedules, so maybe you can imagine that she says his sleep schedule deteriorated a lot since. University started, and it's not because he's studying. Doesn't attend most of his classes. And probably will fail his. Interesting. I usually go to sleep between midnight and 1:00 AM and wake up between 9:00 and 10:00 AM. Meanwhile, he goes to sleep at 4:00 to 6:00 AM and wakes up frequently at 4:00 PM only on some days does he wake up between 1:00 and 2:00. To mention when. Do talk. He somehow falls asleep. Feels like I'm dating myself, not him. Time I've tried to intervene.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wait, wait. He falls asleep during a conversation?

Host: Michael:

That's what she says.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. I'm already. I'm. I'm. I'm already like, like, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. You're worried about his sleep schedule. About his like health. Like his. Like he is, he's clearly. Failing across the board at all sorts of things, but, but sleep is obviously one of them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Feels like this is a wormhole, doesn't it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like all right, Michael, finish.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Probably continue, but I was struck by.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Bring, bring this plane in for landing.

Host: Michael:

Yup, there's only one last line, which is each time I ask him to fix his sleep schedule and talk about it. Him. Does for one day and then goes back. The old. Am I the asshole in trying to intervene with his sleep needs?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I know, I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I love it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So you're not worried that she is trying? Only focusing on his sleep schedule and.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, I think that's. Yeah, I feel like that's the thread she's pulling on and there's a massive sweater behind that. And it's really thing that this is like a symptom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

She probably doesn't know that, but I'm just suspecting that this is a symptom of a whole lot of other stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm just going to sidetrack us here. You use one of my favorite therapy analogies. There is, which is the sweater thread like you pull on. Sometimes you you find that sweater thread and you give it a little pull and everything just shows up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love that. It's it really is my favorite analogy for what happens. Sometimes in therapy. So that's that's wonderful. So what's the threat behind this? What's the? So the sweater behind it, I'll give our guest first crack at this. I don't want to.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, great question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Tend to jump in and like start talking.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Well, that could be like a huge amount of things like just so like if someone like this was presenting to me professionally, I would probably say, when's your last physical? Tell me about your. Like there's so many things that this could be substance use. Just lack of care of himself or you know what? I'd be really interested in what he's doing in all those hours that he's awake and not sleeping. It's like I feel like there's so much more that needs to be known and what she the OP is saying is the symptom has really got to be the thing that changes. I'm suspecting kind of like the sweater thread thing like that. There's a lot back there and it could go in a lot of different. Maturity. Lot of things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, we don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I.

Host: Michael:

I. Try again.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Then we don't know the time zone. We know that they're at a distance, but we don't know that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I do wonder, I feel like we have a big piece of information. Question here what?

Host: Michael:

So she does. Somebody asked her about time zones and no, they are in the same time zone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Host: Michael:

They're in Europe, if that matters.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Backpage. Yeah, from some of the language.

Host: Michael:

And then. Neither of them have jobs that are causing the schedule shift, so she answered those two questions.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I would be very concerned about. I would be very concerned about depression here. You know, I'm. I'm really worried about, like, what is going on for this guy. And I've seen we've probably all seen three of us all seen like people in their young 20s who begin to. Struggle with depression or anxiety, and they're not doing all of the things and they end up staying up late. Mate for I don't want to stereotype, but for for young men often gaining and that's so dopaminergic and compelling that they just keep going and going and going and going and going. And the more they do that the more their sleep schedule kind of makes this progression in. More and more delayed fashion. Wake up. They're not tired. They go to bed late. Wake up. They're not tired. They go to bed late. They play a game, it keeps them. Wake and this just marches. Until what I've seen, a number of folks who are in this pattern of 4/5 6:00 AM until mid afternoon.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah, I think my one issue with the girlfriend here is she. She she has a deep misunderstanding and yet has pulled on the right. Right. I mean, she's talking about him fixing his sleep schedule for a day and the three of us know you don't fix the sleep schedule in a day for a day. Right. That's just being maybe adherent to to a a normative schedule, but that's not fixed at all. And so he's clearly struggling to to maintain. Seen that and what she is creating is I think a lot of resistance and anger around. You could just do it if you tried, but as we're sort of suggesting, there's maybe a lot underneath here.

Host: Michael:

Mm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe more depression could. Health issues could be any number of things, and he's just pulling it together for a single day and she's she's really angry at something. Maybe someone out of his control at this point without some professional level of intervention.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Looks like another piece that's just going to build off of that just a little bit is that we don't know all the details. But there's a sense that the boyfriend doesn't have too much interest in we think in changing a sleep pattern so that he is kind of aligned with what she needs. And so I can't imagine dating or being married and falling asleep in the middle of my, you know. And like. Like this is the way it is like. It's really interesting that there seems to be like a built in sense of resistance to this kind of shift.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, we talk about distress and impairment being the criterion for, for fixing a problem. It has to both bother you and impair your functioning. While it may be impairing this guy's functioning, maybe it. Him. And so now what she's seeing is, hey, I'm dating someone and I'm distressed by this and she's not. Now I'm distressed that he's not so.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And she's she's, I, I'm. I keep thinking like she's Opie is focused very much on should I change his sleep schedule? And while the sleep schedule's certainly problematic. Well, one of the we're all we all seem to be in agreement that it is symptomatic of somet. Bigger there is something else here, and she's focused on the sleep. Great, but I like I wanted the post to be something more like I'm really worried about my boyfriend and I'm worried about like. Like he's not doing well in school and he's he's not showing up for things and he seems to be failing at all sorts of things. What can I do to help? Oh, and by the way, as part of that like she seems more focused on, I don't want to be negatively judging her, but like I want to focus on what's going on in his world. What's what's what's his problem? He's something's going on for this dude, dude.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, it may be an indication of how out she really is leaning out of this relationship, but you know, I'm just kind of done. Mean, frankly, if I'm dating a guy and he's falling asleep on me in mid conversation, I would feel like I'm dating myself. Quite frankly, I don't need. In the relationship of, I'm going to be by myself.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I may be leaning out of this and kind of done because he's not motivated to make some healthy changes. I think also I would do remember mid 20s, so she's in a place where her brain hasn't probably finished fully developing. She's going to be a little mean in, in, in egocentric about. Both.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's. That's thank you for the reminder there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So you know, I'm not terribly disturbed from a developmental perspective about how she's kind of handling this. I think it may be an opportunity for her to learn relationship, relationship skills longer term. Yeah, well damn.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So essentially I can track her. Like is this idea of like am I the asshole for telling him to change like we just take out like what she's asking him to do? I think what she's really saying is will you change so that we can work Better Together and the fact that he's apparently not doing that, I would say absolutely. You're not the jerk in the situation because you are asking someone to show up for you in the way. You would like for them to be present and at that age we're trying on relationships left and right and like we all. Right to be able to say this isn't working. And so if he's not going to show up for her that way, I don't think she's in the wrong at all for saying this isn't working for me. Whether he sees that as a deeper issue as. Whole mother issue, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I love the way you frame that Bill. We often get caught. Does someone have a right to tell someone else what to do in a relationship?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And while on one hand no. On the other hand, we have a not just a right, but an obligation to tell our partner what we need in a relationship. Just need the same thing as you have to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's more like this is what I need in a relationship. Need someone who's present. If you can't be in a. It works. Then this relationship isn't working for me and we mix that up with being demanding and pushy and manipulative and controlling it. It's. It's just setting a boundary for. This is what I want in a relationship. She's saying I want someone who's awake. Like minimally. I would like someone in a relation. In a relationship with to be awake at some of the time that I am, unless there's something that's preventing them from it, he's. He's saying pretty clearly here. There's nothing preventing him. Others. Then whatever's going on in his world. Needs to get fixed.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

You're saying, like, consciousness is not a not a reach like that is a reasonable expectation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it's not a reach.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It is a. It is a minimal part of a relationship that you that I would want any partner. I would want my partner to be, you know, functionally conscious.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say the situation. Right, build up what you're saying. I mean, we made requests and relationships all the time, right? How do you make that? Do you stamp your foot in and insist on it, or do you just say like, hey, this, like you said, I'd like to be conscious for for the time that we spend together that. And that's a. So we don't know how she's addressed this with him, but I think Dan, to your point, it's a fair. And then you know, I think the thing that you see in healthy relationships is what the Gottlieb, John and Julie Gottman talk about in terms of accepting the influence of your partner. There are things that we end up doing in relationships that we. Do ourselves or prioritize ourselves but our? Finds that important. They've made that known and we become willing to engage in that activity or behavior or or even take on some of that perspective and at least respect that perspective. And this guy is not really in any deeper way accepting that influence from her.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe because he's got some other underlying things that he. So then I think, yeah, fair she doesn't have a relationship partner here who's active with her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean, I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And don't read that as you need to leave. No, no, I don't want to be that person on a podcast saying I'm just concerned about his level of engagement.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She's clearly not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't think she's an asshole at all for this, and I know Gayle, by the way. I appreciate your reminding me of the developmental stage. She's in that that in young 20s are still pretty egocentric. The 20 year olds that all think they're fully grown, but they're they're their brains. Know what are we? What is it, 24, 25, 26 before the brain is really there?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And so that probably means he's developing too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

His brain was off underdeveloped.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. So you got these two underdeveloped brain humans, and they're trying to work this out. I don't think she's an asshole. At all I. I'm really concerned for for, for him and want to find out what what the sweater is. As Bill has mentioned that that's interfering with his with his, not necessarily interfering with sleep, but interfering with him doing something about it I'm worried about. Young man and what's going on in his world, that that's leading him down a path because you know folks who stay up all night. During the. Who don't have jobs like their likelihood of success in any endeavor is small.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, remember, he's also a student, so he doesn't have a job, but it's not as if he's just unemployed. Sounds like he is a student, but they don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's going to affect.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Act so it probably matters.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's going to affect. Yeah, he's going to fail.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, he is going there. And so his relationship is probably the least of his concerns here.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, the backdrop is like the whole wall is crumbling from from what it sounds like. And so like, I think I really appreciate both of what you're saying, like this whole respect. Relationship and like we would just assume like if there's some compatibility between the two of them, what a great way for each of them to lean into the relationship, to listen to her and to take her cues that something's really off to then respect himself and to. Her and look into that and what a great way to build some intimacy between the two of them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Like you know, she can always do the 20 year old thing and say, like, you're just not my type. And then off she goes to another relationship and that would be fair too. But that doesn't give her a. Of connection or ability to work through some. These challenges. Challenges that will for sure come up in other relationships in other ways down the road.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I think the biggest risk to her is feeling unimportant and invalidated. Depending on the kind of issues she brings to this relationship, you know, maybe reinforcing some negative self esteem, self talk and that kind of thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, he could have changed if he really wanted to. Not important enough like that. As 20 year olds, we go down some. Holes with that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I would love to see these guys having some healthy conversations about what this means. So anyway, I think that Michael thought he was bringing us a sleep question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And weirdly enough, like a lot of times, Michael, you actually brought us a relationship question.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, actually that's why I thought it would. Because even though she didn't really get much in the way of comments, you know, and one of the things I really enjoy about doing podcast.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK.

Host: Michael:

Whatever the surface symptom is, there's usually a bigger thing at play and like you all touched on. I mean that is that is definitely the relationship. Also, you know all his other situation in the background, whether it's depression or whatever else is, is causing that drugs and whatever else but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm.

Host: Michael:

I could not help but imagine the Weezer song playing in my head that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right.

Host: Michael:

You know. You want to destroy my sweater? Hold this thread as I walk away.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love. Bill knew it. And Dan and I were like waiting for the lyrics.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you know. I know the sweater song, but it did not pop in my head. Like, I'm like Buddy Holly.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh yeah, yeah. How do you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now I'm of a generation that's “the sweater song” means something entirely different. I will save you from singing it, but I now hear it in my head. I'll go and get the show now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Lately, in the show notes, but league of the show, it's a both of those songs, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Find it.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I so for rendering verdicts here, I think it's up. We all feel like she's not an asshole and we all we all. All I want to and what we've all expressed concern about. Like what's going on for him, what's going on for the relationship. Other thoughts before he pitched it to Michael and see at the. And said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I think we covered them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, Michael, what the Internet say.

Host: Michael:

Well, you really. Two camps on the Internet and again, there weren't very many comments, but I'll say the poster was really active in responding to things. Which is. Often I get these and we don't get any clarification or whatever. But in this case, the two camps were essentially you are the asshole. Out he's an. He needs to do his own thing. Why does this? Which is like anybody who's been in a relationship, you should think you should understand why that. So I was a little concerned about some of those comments. And then the other one was you're definitely not the asshole. Has bigger problems and then that kind of led to this conversation about depression and. The original poster kept saying no, he's not depressed and then people would say sorry to say this, but just because you don't see signs doesn't mean that there isn't an illness. And the one thing I didn't see anybody say was he should probably see a professor. Like you intervening, you intervening as a girlfriend, saying you need to sleep your sleep.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Schedule it's not the same as actually seeing someone who can. With that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, and. We all three treat this. Isn't like overnight fixing. This isn't like just change your sleep schedule, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dragged his ass into one of our offices. Be like.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. There's a loom sweater back into place, right? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. We'd be fixing sleep and help. Fix some of it. But we need to rule some stuff out because this is concerning. I think people bringing them in, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I mean, I would want to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think that would be our first reaction to this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. I mean, for someone like this and you know, we'd want to sit down with the with this young man. And find out what's going. We'd, we'd get a sleep diary from him. We'd spend time really evaluating his sleep issues and concerns. It's going to take, you know, a month, a couple of months to treat this person. I will say the one thing her where she think may be a little unreasonable is expecting him to just change his sleep schedule because sleep schedules once were locked in with that circadian rhythm. That's a hard shift to make. To change a circadian rhythm. Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In here.

Host: Michael:

So as someone who doesn't get to see the inside of your offices and what you actually do on a day-to-day basis, I'm curious. If somebody came into you and it was like, hey, I have problems with sleep and then as you're talking about sleep, you're like, holy shit, you have so much else going on. What comes first? How do? You unravel that to stick with the sweater analogy. That's.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Really good question, at least for. Like I always defer to the individual on what do they feel like they have? Because the last thing that I want to be doing is trying to change something that is third on their list when there's first on their list and. And even with that list, I'll oftentimes have to say like the, you know, the positives of treating this other thing first are that we don't do this other thing. And for example, sleep if sleep is the last on their list, and I don't know, maybe like losing his. Is first on his list. We'll probably spend some time, but we have to get to the sleep at some point. So we'll talk about pros and cons of how they prioritize. Things, but I always start with what they're willing and able to do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I want to say I do the same thing Bill does because it's it's the right answer. At the same time, like I generally find myself leaning into wanting to encourage the person to address the sleep stuff because I see it as like the easiest thing to fix. And the thing that that that the client usually thinks is the hardest thing to fix, but. But it's usually usually the easiest thing to fix, and I then like we can do the sleep work and feather in the other stuff. So that's my personal. I certainly do. If someone's like, no, I don't. Finally, sleep schedule. But I will find I think it I have to pull myself back as a psychologist for being a little pushy about that because I know that's probably the best bang for your buck in. Number of sessions.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, but where is pushy in the line for building motivation for the most impactful treatment, right? 1-2 and three are all really important, but let's imagine for a moment if we reorder that 321, because this does have a lot of bang for buck. If you can get the bills, point that sign on and that agreement reorder it then. Then we've got exactly, you know, kind of Bill's answer. I will say one of the things that I really value as a as a clinician is having a good release of information in place because I want to work with my medical colleagues to start rolling some things out and that I just sell as concurrent work like you. Go to your doctor. Get some conversations like you need to bring this up and we can do some of these things in the meantime. There's no reason that we have to necessarily do them in a sequential order. Can do them concurrently. If they have ruling, if they have motivation.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I was going to say, Dan, I really appreciate your point because. Because we know what is heavy lifting and what is not so heavy to lift in therapy and so patients have no idea oftentimes. And so it is useful. Agree with. I guess I kinda left it out without even thinking about it that I'll usually say. Well, here's something that would probably be relatively efficient for us to do. If you want to talk about saving the girlfriend or if you want to talk about. Cutting back on your drinking, that is an estimated this period of time and here's what's expected. This other thing may be a little faster and quicker for you, but we'll start with whatever you feel is most important. Yeah, I think if we kind of lean in and put. Finger. The scale. Little bit people can guide.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, a little a little bit, but I think I, I find myself overly tempted to put my finger on this gal in a more heavy way than I think it's oh because like because I want to. Just like I love to fix the sleep piece and it is the folk, you know, all the things that people come into therapy often going. I'm anxious and I think you'll be able to help me. I'm depressed and I'm pretty sure you'll be able to help me when they come in and sleep. Like. I have found, and maybe Bill Gale of different had different experiences, but I found an awful lot. I'm here for my sleep, but I don't think this is going to help. Here, because I was told to come in. And there's a lot more of that with sleep because people often feel so hopeless when they're coming in around sleep. Tried everything so far and nothing has helped me. So there's there's a little bit less buy in a lot of times in that initial visit that sleep can that, that the work on sleep. Can be beneficial, absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think part of that is just the information that's available, right? Tried. What in the world could you possibly offer? Let me tell you about cognitive behavioral therapy for. Excuse me. What? Right. And the doctor hasn't heard about it like this is really new information. And so I think they do feel desperate because we don't have a common conversation about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

CBTI cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Talk about. Meds are you on for sleep? You taking melatonin? You know we have those. I know, I know. Stop cringing. You know, and we we don't talk about really efficacious. Treatment for. We focus on these other, you know, sort of. Socially available scripts around sleep and what's effective and not what really the literature pushes on.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, excellent point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, so we have decided she's not an asshole. Not an. The Internet disagreed a bit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no assholes here. I'm going with no assholes here, but I'm. But I'm. I'm worried about their relationship and I'm worried about his both mental and physical health potentially.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can you help me downgrade my data?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I think we we we all like we came to a pretty good consensus on this one. That doesn't always the case. You know. Internet have anything else that value to discuss? Michael before we close out?

Host: Michael:

Not really. I mean, that was unfortunately they just didn't have very many comments, which is kind of why I was hoping to give them a boost here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right.

Host: Michael:

Mean it felt like there was a lot to unpack and they left a lot on the table so.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Maybe that's a signal of how hopeless people feel about their sleep like. It's like, you know, it's such a widespread problem.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, thank you all three for another riveting debate. Until a collective conscience of the Internet forums. Morality is often Shades of Grey, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Truth is stranger than fiction. Thanks for joining us and having this conversation. This was really good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks especially for for Bill, Bill for coming. I will. And I'm I'm not just like, like, like, saying nice things to the to the guest on the show. But like, I gotta say, it's like I heard you talking. Thinking I'd go see that guy because I needed therapy. I'd go see that guy. He seemed to get to the scene to get to that piece. That's like, OK, all right.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

But I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Would. I think you'd get that piece of that. Need to work on pretty quickly. Thank you.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Thank you guys for having me. Is so much fun.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What I love about Bill is a podcast guest is I e-mail them and I think like 20 seconds. He's like I'm. He didn't ask any questions. Was just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Joining us and shit. Oh, I think Michael's the one who says stick around at the bonus conversation. But you know, like follow all that other stuff, Michael.

Host: Michael:

Please follow the share of Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms, with your neighbors and friends, and as always, like Dan said, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation will be.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Listen, as promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Do we have a question for Bill? We alluded to something if not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we, we we do have a question for Bill. I think we done this before.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, you do? OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I admit that I've not read all these books on my bookshelf behind me. Read most of them. Bill, which of the books that you have that you haven't yet read, are you? Thinking, why haven't I read that one? I really need psychologically related or or or completely not like. Is there a book you're going? Should be reading now.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. So National Public Radio just kind of threw it in my face again. Just the other. So there's a book, maybe you guys have heard of it: Grandmother's Hands. Have you heard of that? Resmaa Menakem  is a social worker in the Minneapolis area. I've listened to an extensive interview, I think it was Speaking of Faith. Like if I could just kind of shout out to another program that's out on the Internet and so. It's a gentleman. He's an LCSW African American man who does therapy, and he specializes in trauma work. And his whole book is about intergenerational trauma. And so I won't try to do the book justice to summarize it here, because I have not read it yet. But listening to his interview, just a fascinating view of how. Culturally, in his world view. The traumas of being brought over from the African continent onto the United States continent for the purposes of the pleasure of, you know, white male enslavement. Generally speaking. Has carried an enormous amount of trauma for people who now have very little connection. Aside from history books. You know, we would argue socio economic, you know, displacement in our society, a lot of different things. But personally they don't have that experience. So he talks about. Just a really powerful way how we all care. Are traumas from previous generations that we don't even have, you know, tactile connection to. And I thought that was such a fascinating view that can be applied in a lot of scenarios. And so I've had it on my list for. Over a year now and I'm just ashamed that I haven't had a chance to read it yet and I love the name of the book too. Grandmother's Hands, because it's such a metaphor of, like, all of the cracks and the lines. All of the wear, the calluses that come from another generation, and how we still have connection to it, even though we didn't put those calluses there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I think it's immediately a visual for me. Grandmother’s hands.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Well, thanks for tuning in. Tune in again next week for a whole other, Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi, I'm Dr. Dan MacBride, and with me today is Dr. Daniel Kessler, clinical psychologist, and my business partner. Welcome, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hey? How you doing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm doing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Monday morning.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: This morning. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Sunday morning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I asked a question, and then I started talking immediately like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Really not what you want in a therapist. Ask a question, then talk over you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Fair enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Fair enough, fair enough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think we're here to answer some questions. Speaking of questions. And, Michael, have you brought us a fascinating question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I bet he has.

Host: Michael: I have one that yeah, I mean this one. This is one that I think will will generate some interesting conversation. So.

Host: Michael: but for any of the newbies out there. If you don't know what we're talking about. Essentially, what I've done is I've gone out onto the Internet and

Host: Michael: Googled for content and found a scenario that somebody has shared, and basically said, This is what happened. Who's the asshole here? And that's ultimately what Dan and Gayle are going to weigh in on, and

Host: Michael: if you're new, stick around through the credits, we always have some kind of bonus conversation. But for now neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this. I haven't shared it with them ahead of time. So let's roll. Today's prompt. Is, am I the asshole for not forcing my child to eat blueberries?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I need more information.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Because, generally speaking, no, but maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm sure there's a twist, because there's a twist question. Seems so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Straightforward, all right, Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's valid.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Give us the twist.

Host: Michael: All right. So this is what we got. My wife gave our 11 year old son some blueberries, but he didn't like them and didn't want to eat them, she insisted they were good, so he reluctantly tried one, but still didn't enjoy them. I thought that was the end of it, and went to the store. When I came back my son was crying because he had been made to eat the remaining blueberries.

Host: Michael: my wife explained it was for his health, but I told my son he could eat another fruit he liked instead, like an apple or strawberries. He immediately agreed, spat out the blueberries, and ate an apple instead.

Host: Michael: This upset my wife, who said I was undermining her authority, and that our son wouldn't learn to eat healthy this way, I argued, it's unfair to force anyone to eat something they dislike, especially since our son does eat plenty of other healthy foods. The situation escalated, and our son tried to de-escalate by eating more blueberries, swallowing them almost whole.

Host: Michael: But the argument continued, I apologize to my son for the conflict, but I stand by my belief that we should respect his preference while ensuring he still eats a balanced diet. Am I the asshole for not making him eat the blueberries.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, so many layers here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, take it away, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, I mean, I mean, we have so many questions to answer. The 1st question is just like, Do you force kids to eat foods they don't like because you. You want them to gain a more broad palate, and we can have that discussion. And then there's that second issue of of how, of of you know? Do we undermine or or contradict our partner?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: With with child rearing questions? And obviously the answer that is, it depends. But, like, you know, is this one of those situations where it's appropriate to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: counterman the edict of of a partner? And then and then, if yes, how is what's the right way to do that, and how to handle this? And then like, how do you handle an argument with your partner in front of your kid in a way that's best managed, so that, you know, because we don't, we can't avoid that forever, because it's not a terrible thing to have arguments in front of kids if you handle it correctly and show them resolution. There's a lot here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just. I'm just like bringing up there. Are there other? Are there other questions for us to answer before we jump into actually trying to answer them?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Are you asking me, or Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm asking you. I'm asking you, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think I think you've hit on the biggies, and maybe we'll come up with something along the way. But let's start with. That's a pretty good list to start with.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I think, so, what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Which one do we tackle first? st

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I think maybe forcing a kid to eat something. This is the superficial question of the post right? Which is, I think, a difficult question for parents. You know. You're right. There is some sort of, and I think the posters right. There's some

Dr. Gayle MacBride: hope or expectation. And, child rearing, that you have your kids try a number of foods. If you don't, they end up being, you know, fed on a diet of mac and cheese and dinosaur chicken nuggets, which is not what we want. That's not a healthy and balanced meal. And how do you get that. Well, you set an expectation in your household that you try at least one bite of everything on your plate. You don't have to like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Just have to try it. And my kids, pediatrician used to say that, you know sometimes you have to introduce something as many as a hundred times before they develop the taste buds, and the palate. For this, as we know, taste buds and palates change.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sure, sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Introduction is important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And some well, now, now, what about those who would say that? Well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: the kids aren't going to like the 1st bite, and that they need to eat the food in order to gain a liking for it. And how much

Dr. Daniel Kessler: pressure do we apply? How much is it okay to say, no, you have to eat this, you're saying. As long as they have a bite we're good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of the mind to have the child take a bite.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and if they don't like it, that's okay. It doesn't mean it's never going to appear on the table again, and it doesn't mean it's never going to appear on their plate again.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: One bite will suffice, and I don't think you need to eat a pile of something in a sitting and create a food fight or a dinner fight or a meal fight, and those are miserable for parents right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Those are, those are, those are miserable, for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So so. No, I think i 1 bite, and it can show up a hundred times. I'm I'm fine with that. That was where we landed as parents that we could agree to and felt like it gave our kids the exposure without creating really terrible interactions and power struggles.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What would you say to those parents who said, who would say like, no, they, my kid, won't eat any vegetables, and I feel like. I need to make them eat like this at least a small salad. I need to make them eat. Oh, thank you for that. By the way, I was going to say it looked like you were like like talking from a steam room. For a moment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. The sun came in my in my window a little bit. There.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That was interesting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Enjoyable, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: For those who are not watching on Youtube.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right my window cast a bunch of light in, and then I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But what I mean, what do you? What would you say?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: said, No, I'm going to put food on their plate. They need to eat the food like. I'm not going to give them anything unhealthy or bad for them, and I think that the way for them to learn is to is to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, and they can't, because they need eat salad. They need.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think this is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They have to. They have to choke down their broccoli like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: This borders on some medical advice that I don't want to give. I want to be really careful about my scope.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: fair enough, fair enough, but I think

Dr. Gayle MacBride: you know, I would maybe talk about how do you set a family expectation of just one bite, one bite of a thing that looks like the thing. I get a little hesitant when we disguise vegetables and healthy things in something that doesn't look healthy without having the healthy

Dr. Gayle MacBride: object appearing in its natural state. Right? So, for example, you can buy products with powdered green, mixed green vegetables and those kinds of things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and it looks like chocolate milk. Great! Your kid is now in their brain, drinking chocolate milk, and you're going. Yes, Parent Win, I've got all of these greens in there, and that's wonderful. But the kid doesn't ever associate what this is if they love it right with what's actually in it. So I would want to see a balance. I would want to see a try.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cake doesn't fit and forget.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cake doesn't count, but my husband I make a carrot cake, smoothie, and it's really delicious, and it's got real carrots in it. So I think there are lots of ways.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You could.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Vegetables, but and healthy fruits and healthy foods in general. But it doesn't always have to be

Dr. Gayle MacBride: it doesn't always have to be obvious, you know, if you want to get an amount in a child. But I think

Dr. Gayle MacBride: into the

Dr. Gayle MacBride: the relationship between the child child's brain, seeing this thing is something that's delicious. I would want to see it in its original form. Now, I think I'm also going to depending on the age of the child going to encourage the parent to prepare that differently. You know I've got one kid who really doesn't like roast broccoli. I love to roast broccoli, but it's not that hard to throw some broccolIn a steamer and call it a day, because he will eat steamed broccoli.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Roasted is better.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Roasted is far better. But you know what I'm not about to have that dinner, and I'm serving broccoli tonight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Here's the preferred way. So that I want it. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And in this case I don't want to tell you you're wrong, because I don't think you're wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Differently.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, no, no! I think that if we this is one, I often ask that question like, if we got a hundred psychologists in a room right where would they land? And I think that that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: if we got a hundred child experts, whatever dieticians.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: We should get a child expert on the show.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We should, we should get chunk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Melanie. We did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We do know a few I think if we got 100 I don't think the I don't think the answer would be uniform.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think, I think. And that's what I want to point out, and I would love to hear what our listeners have to say about how they handle this same exact situation with their kids? If they have any, or how they felt when it was handled. Whatever the way their parents handled it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: When they were.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But this is one of those where I'm not going to so much disagree with you as say, I think that there are very valid ways of doing it that are different.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And many would argue for those ways. I don't know that I have the

Dr. Daniel Kessler: strength of feeling about this to make that argument.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I want to say that I don't think your way is necessarily the way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, no, it's the way that that works for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Or for the MacBride family.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right. But you know, I think what doesn't work is the power struggle. We had a guest over for dinner the other night, and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: of a certain age, and his his way was, his experience was, if you didn't like what you were, what was on your plate. Tough luck! You're sitting there till you ate it. And he talked about being at the table past 9 o'clock.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because he wasn't going to eat it. He didn't like it didn't look good, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: What happened? He said, hours

Dr. Gayle MacBride: totally deprived of something, and sent to my room with, you know, hungry and go to bed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That power struggle. I think there may be lots of right ways to handle things, but that power struggle does not seem like that falls into the category. There are. There are lots of wrong ways, I think, to handle this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Alright! Alright!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It leaves a lasting impact.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm not going to argue with that. But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I. I am very interested in hearing what others have to say about that. And I think that there, we'll get some interesting insights from the Internet. We had some other issues here to deal with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, wait a second. Wait a second. I put you on the hook here for a minute. If this parent comes into your office and says, Help me, Dr. Kessler, I don't know what to do. I need my kid to eat vegetables. I feel like a terrible parent here, but I got to do something. How would you help this person navigate this parenting issue?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know that I have a hard and fast rule on this issue. I think it really depends on the parent and the child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We certainly want to foster a strong relationship between parent and child and not create power struggles, and we want to foster a healthy approach to food and diets and such. And I'm uncomfortable with forcing people to eat things at the same time. I'm also uncomfortable with the idea of like, okay, just. I'm not sure that I'm on the same page as you are with. You. Just take a bite, and you're fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because I don't think there's a that you develop the taste for things from that one bite. At the same time. I don't know about the I don't want to get into the struggle. So it's is there another way other than

Dr. Daniel Kessler: okay? If you take a bite, you're off the hook and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: power struggle like, is there a way of influencing the child that doesn't involve a power struggle. How would you feel about the parent who says, if you eat that thing I will give you extra of this. If you eat the broccoli we'll get ice cream after dinner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Now you would. I had parents. There's an argument. Well, we're bribing the kid, but frankly, as much as I love my job.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I only go in because they bribe me to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know I wouldn't. I wouldn't continue doing the work I do, even though I love my work. I wouldn't probably do it if I didn't get paid to. And then we get into the whole issue of is like, if that if you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Ice cream is now compensation. It's currency.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, if you give the child to do this through rewarding them in some way, is that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know now you're not in a power struggle. But is that created? Is that better

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or worse? I you know there's and I'm sure that there are lots of other ways other than rewarding.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: letting them off the hook, after, you know, have letting them have a single bite, letting them just refuse which which you and I are both not on that page. It sounds like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or getting into the power struggle where they're, you know, sitting in front of their their plate for hours on end, like I'm wondering there's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: There's lots.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Creative methods for coping with this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, and to your point. I just want to say, you know, I don't think that if we're going to call it bribery with food is the only way to bribe, I mean the bribery could.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, no, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You get to choose the next vegetable? Right? So we have this tonight, and tomorrow, you know, will be your your vegetable of choice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, here's it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So I think we can. I guess that is a food bride. But it's really more about the choice than the food.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But finish this off, and I'll give you a buck. I don't know. Is there something wrong with that? Necessarily like, you know?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I am not so sure. I think that what I'm getting to here is, I think there's a rich variety of ways to handle this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And sometimes it is an independent situation, you know. Is this a is this a sensitivity due to some, you know, autistic spectrum disorder? Is this just a kid?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is the kid a soap taster with cilantro, and it like literally tastes like like eating soap. And I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There's all sorts of things here that are

Dr. Daniel Kessler: that I think defy a hard and fast rule.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But what I'd want to do is talk to the parent about the way they're handling it, what's working and not working.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and try to navigate a path that works for them and their child.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I would want to know if we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: On your path that works for you and your children.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Ask this a little bit. His mom. What's important about the blueberries?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Why, the blueberries.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, it sounds like, Mom, got a little fixed on this. And it sounds like Dad like that, like, we're moving to the next issue like Mom got really fixed on like it has to be blueberries and all the fruit. And Dad got like stepped in there. And how do you think, what do you think about that? Somebody? I know your mom said, Yeah, to eat blueberries. But you know what

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm fine with eating something else.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in my mind, these are very distinct conversations. If I have Mom, I want to understand the insistence on the blueberries. I suspect it comes from antioxidants and superfood, and all of that right? So I'm guessing that's where this is coming from. Side note. When our children were young, we did teach them that blueberries had antioxidants or superfoods, and I remember coaching them to like tell their grandparents about this, and it was, you know, and their little 3 year old voices kind of cute.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But you know, what is it? What's important there for Mom? And is there another way that she can learn to create flexibility around the nutrition needs that she sees appropriate for her family. So that would maybe be the work with Mom and the work with Dad looks different for me. This is a really careful road. You have to walk as as parents.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: because you need to be able to support each other, and yet call each other out when you're wrong. And how do you do that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I certainly don't think that's well done

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in a high conflict way in front of the child, if you can do it in a low conflict way in front of the child.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay? Right? Because I do believe like you, it's okay for children to see conflict and disagreements and differences between 2 parents and watch them work it out. But if you can't do that, and you're really pissed, or you're really worried about that situation going, you know, in some sort of spiral. You maybe need to pull your co-parent aside and say, we need to talk about this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I feel really strongly about this, and do some sort of level of of maybe more intense disagreement separately, because otherwise that kid sees that split and knows which parent they're going to they're going to play. And let me tell you, growing up, I absolutely knew which parent I was. Going to go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Want.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I discovered at an early age that if I said to one of my parents, Don't tell Mom, but or frankly, don't tell dad, but like something about that, like either one of them would be like, Oh, I can't know, and I think maybe they did talk to each other, but it always kept me out of trouble.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just playing them off each other like that. And if my kids are listening, don't do that. But like I have problems with. Because OP. Asked the wrong question.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Didn't say, Am I wrong?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm glad you said it that way, because that was my 1st thought. Is this is the wrong question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. The question is, am I wrong to counter? Am I wrong to override my wife's

Dr. Daniel Kessler: edict to our children in front of them in this way, you know. Yes, and you're going to have a difference of opinion.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I totally see Dad's view is valid. I totally see where Mom's view could be valid. So that's a conversation for them to have

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like outside of the kid's earshot, at least initially.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This is the conversation to him to pull her aside and say, I don't. I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't think this hill we want to die on honey.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, this is a healthy, so important. So I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because right now I'm not behind it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And she might say, No, this is a whole worth dying on. And here's why. And then you have that conversation outside of the kids, because I think that that that we don't need to encourage kids to play parents off each other going to do it, anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, right, right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I suspect, though this is not the 1st time they've had this issue. It's 11. We've been having food refusal issues for a long time. So this is not a new issue between this couple. I'm nearly certain of it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And how are they handling? Oh, and how do they handle their other conflicts? Parents are going to have conflicts over child rearing, or to get back to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Gottman. 65 plus percent of arguments don't get resolved and won't get resolved. And that's fine. By the way, the Gottman sent out a really terrific email about this exact topic earlier this week. I'm just going to plug there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Nice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Think it's called marriage minute, or something like that. I really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh! Is that the love notes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm not sure which one it is, but it's something in their mailing list that I really like. But they talked about this exact topic like, no matter who you marry, you're choosing a set of irreconcilable conflicts

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like you're going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, my gosh! Wait! Can you say that again? I love that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You're choosing a set of unsolved, unresolvable problems

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or unresolvable conflict. No matter who you marry, you're going to get a set of unresolvable conflicts

Dr. Daniel Kessler: period. And I love the way he put that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or she put that, or they put that or their writers put that, or whoever does the Gottman's email, because because it underscores this idea that this couple may never come to agreement on the right way to handle

Dr. Daniel Kessler: food refusals.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So how do we then navigate that difficult place where I believe that you shouldn't force a kid to eat anything, and you believe that you absolutely should. And we both come from a place of loving and caring and wanting the best for our children, but we don't agree on the right way to do it. How do we come to a place of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: working together.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so I've come to talking with couples about this kind of thing as a template. What is your template for solving your disagreements, your differences of opinions. This isn't right or wrong, this is just a difference, and that template is really important. I talked to a couple years and years and years ago that they were in an irreconcilable, stuck place. But they had experienced child loss

Dr. Gayle MacBride: early in their marriage.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so my question to them is, how did you manage that? That was incredibly difficult. And can we use that template for the incredibly difficult place that you're at right now? And they went?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Huh?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of course we can, because it is remarkable. By the way, when a couple is able to navigate that and stay together, it's a really difficult thing to get through. And so you know, that couple had a template. Yeah, something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think that's important to reach into and think about what that template looks like. And how do you? How do you bid to your partner that, hey? I want to invoke that template here. I want to use that here, and that bid is a little sign or a signal to your your partner that this is now coming in play. We're using some of our communication skills, our relationship skills.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And couples come into our office so often like. Let me explain what the situation and they're looking for. I don't know, Judge Judy, to tell them who's right and who's wrong, and to resolve the conflict. And one of the things we have to spend, we spend a lot of time doing both of us with the couples we work with is this is not necessarily conflict. You're ever going to resolve.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And if you're not going to resolve this conflict, and a whole bunch of other conflicts you have. How do you work together? And I love the idea. I use that word as well the template. What is your template for resolving these conflicts or working together when we're not going to resolve the conflicts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that's and when they can get to that place, it's really amazing. Like, once we get that space of acceptance of. Yeah, we're just not. Going to we're never going to agree on this. We're never. Going to we're never going to see the same about this. And that's okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? I think that's the most important thing is understanding that it's okay. You don't have to have a hundred percent agreement. No, you have to. You do have to have a way of talking with each other about that difference. And in this particular instance, how do we want to ultimately decide and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: make a decision. That maybe is a compromise where each one gets a little bit of a win. Maybe it's a little bit of a give for the other. Where you go. Okay, we're going to do it this way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Always avoid that word.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't like the word compromise.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Both people are losing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I really try to underscore. I know you. You do, too. When you said the word compromise. I saw you kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, oh, cause like I want to if we can get to the place where they both feel like they get something out of it, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But I want to emphasize that it's a decision. And the reality is when you look at game theory, not everybody wins all of the stuff all of the time. In game theory. You do have a loss, and that can be okay. We're not here to win. We're here to make a decision and move forward in a way that is acceptable to the parties involved.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sure, sure. And maybe it's like I don't agree with. I don't agree with the way he wants to do this, but he feels more strongly about this or she. I don't agree with her on this, but she really feels strongly about this. And I'm like, so this one, I'm going to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and we sometimes do that within a relationship. And so again, underscoring, we talk a lot about this. If you've listened to previous episodes, we've certainly heard us talk about this idea that, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: accepting that your partner is going to let you down.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know that that your partner is the 100% of couples there are at some point in their relationship disappointed in their partner. I disappoint my wife at time, probably. Well, me me! Never! Because I'm never.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: never! I never make errors. No, we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Any of us believe that? No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: no! One's actually buying that load of Bologna hopefully. She's not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Listening. Also, yeah, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But she doesn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Are you kidding me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Are you back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Ain't kidding me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, she's getting a good laugh out of it right now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: when I hear you say that. And I think about this often in graduate school, the professor that taught my marriage and family work. He disclosed a little bit about how you know they kind of bid to soften in an argument, and he would say, It's almost like we're 2 different people. And it was a nice little reminder

Dr. Gayle MacBride: we we fall under. It's called the Assumption of similarity, right? That our spouse is similar to us. They're going to feel the same way to like the same things, you know. Think about things in the same way. And it's a nice reminder that we are 2 individuals. We are separate human beings. And in relationships. Yeah, we're just. We have. We have to gently remind each other. It's as if we're 2 different people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really love that. And it is something that gets really pushed in popular media. We talk a lot about about ROM-coms and how they paint this a very unrealistic picture. But that's 1 of those ideas that we're going to be on the same page and finishing up other sentences. And it's important to like. See the world in the same way and have the same worldview. And we're just not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not. Going to it's not going to happen. And it's great when we're when there's similarities. But there's also like that. We're not the same people, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's okay. That's what brings us that. I think diversity right? I think it's important to have our views challenged and think about things differently and bounce those things around together. That's what makes us, I think,

Dr. Gayle MacBride: just better people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I gotta say, getting back to our question here. I'm not real happy with the way OP handled this this issue.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of course it's not the blueberry issue.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: In front of the child going. Oh, I know, Mom said, you have to eat these blueberries, but I'm okay. If you do something else, and set the blueberries aside. And I think in that moment I think, Mom, there has has every reason to be pretty pretty annoyed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: With him about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: With her on how she's handled the blueberries. I'm annoyed with him. How he handled her right again to my point that this is not the 1st time this child now is in a role of peacemaker.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm going to fix this between you. I'm going to eat mouthfuls of blueberries, even though I don't like them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really really heartbreaking here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, this this couple has unintentionally triangulated their child into the conflict, and I'm constantly saying the people I'm working with triangles are bad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, if you're triangulating a child in, or you're an adult child who's been triangulated into a conflict between parents like that's a really hard place to be. And that really is doing a disservice to this kiddo.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Being caught in the middle of this conflict, where he's the source of the conflict. And kids, you know. Oh, if I did! If I didn't do that. If I'd eaten the blueberries, Mom and Dad wouldn't be arguing. And this is awful. And I just I really feel for this kiddo in this situation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Also blueberries are delicious. I don't know what he's going on like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, some blueberries get all mealy and a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So like those particular blueberries that were no good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They're really maybe just mad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Those deserve to be frozen and put into a smoothie.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Drink a little bit of sugar on them, and like, stir it. Blueberries are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They're they're one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I smell a parenting difference. Don't sugar fruit, it's sweet enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, no! Sometimes blueberries can be a little bit like a just a little bit of sugar in them

Dr. Daniel Kessler: totally, totally, or throw them in a nice pan, throw them in a pan with a little bit of maple syrup and a pinch of salt, and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Down

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and put those up on top of on top of pancakes. Absolutely wonderful, and they stain your teeth blue.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, fun bonus.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Just it's a fun bonus.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, sir.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Fun bonus, so I mean blueberries are delicious. Fresh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thin in smoothie in a compote. They're just they're just terrific dried. They're just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And what goes to show mom had options. We don't have to just eat blueberries unadulterated.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We don't. I think that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Make some different decisions here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And one of the things we can we could even get to here is is when we get stuck as parents, and we get caught in

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I certainly find myself asking myself this question like, Is this the hill I want to die on like? And sometimes the answer is, Yes, this is this is absolutely no. This has to go this way. And sometimes, like, Yeah, I've gotten stuck here in a power struggle. And what's the best way out of this power struggle

Dr. Daniel Kessler: where I don't want to lose the power struggle. But at the same time I don't want to be in the power struggle. And how do I get out of that power struggle? Because it's not helping my child to lose it or win it? Quite frankly, it's helping the child get out of it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, because our greater interest is our relationship with the child and raising good humans.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right? Right? Exactly. So we're we're we're saying here. It sounds like what we're saying is,

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If your question is, am I an asshole for not making my kitty blueberries. But that's not really the question. Am I an asshole for the way I handled this with my wife? You handled it badly?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Is he an asshole, or does he just suck.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Mildly dickish?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: He's he's he handled it poorly, I mean, I think all around this wasn't this wasn't handled great? Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I, you know I don't. I don't know the history, so I'm not ready to bust Mom for for making this the hill she dies on, but maybe she's out of line. I know he's out of line for the way he handled it with, but it sounds like he's out of line rather for the way he handled it with a kiddo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What are your thoughts.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think the parents suck.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm maybe a little bit more intense than you are. I'm sure there's some back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You feel more intensely than I do. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I. But I really think Mom handled the place. She got stuck

Dr. Gayle MacBride: very poorly, and I'm having a hard time imagining a through line where she would be in the right on this. Now that with the caveat of we get these posts, someone has presented a situation from their own perspective, and we don't have Mom's perspective here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: so

Dr. Gayle MacBride: don't know what that is. Perhaps there really is some through line where she was in the right to insist on this. But I really really struggle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Even if the child said, Mom, I promise I'm going to eat the blueberries. I want you to buy them from the grocery store, and she's great. Going to buy the blueberries. I don't like blueberries. You eat blueberries, hey? Dude? You asked for blueberries. You're now not eating the blueberries that's food waste.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Strongly about food waste.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Even. Still, it gets into an issue of consent, right? Which is, I get to change my mind. That sucks. But then you don't ask the child about blueberries. You don't buy the blueberries so like I just, I can't see where Mom doesn't suck at least somewhat. And Dad definitely sucks and painted, and really mostly because he didn't realize the issue that he was really up against. He made the issue about the blueberries

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and is, seemed agnostic to the issue of the of of parenting to co-parenting in the moment he he's completely blind to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay. Michael. Wait.

Host: Michael: And let's not forget the little kid who's enabling their arguments by like trying to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, he's a cat!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, wow!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And go, okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, you're going to if you're going to bust this kid's chops, then someone's phone and.

Host: Michael: Kidding. That part was heartbreaking to me like I could totally picture him like shoving the blueberries in my in his mouth. Going. Everything's fine, everything's fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Arguing. I feel terrible about that, too. What did the Internet say?

Host: Michael: Well, the Internet was not as nuanced in their understanding as the post as you are, which

Host: Michael: I would expect to not be the case they all piled on mom, that Mom was in the wrong. The poster was.

Host: Michael: he took the right stand. And you know, basically in summary, this person's post was probably the this quote probably summarizes it succinctly, which is congrats to your wife on working so hard to fuck up your child's relationship with food, and starting an argument right in front of him, so he can feel wretched and guilty over something that wasn't his fault. For fuck's sake he even tried the blueberries. He's allowed not to like things as any human being is.

Host: Michael: and so they all kind of piled on that angle, saying, You're not the asshole. But they missed

Host: Michael: the big part which I think you're you both, really, you know, spent a lot of time talking about, which is like the way the Dad presented it, and the way the dad handled it wasn't great, either. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know that I entirely disagree with the Internet on on this. I but I do. I do really have. I do really struggle with the way the dad handled this, even if we're going to agree with the Internet

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and agree with with my esteemed colleague, Dr. MacBride, and say, Mom was told a line here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: even if we go there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't like the way Dad handled this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think he handled it. I think he.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Started it right like it's Mom's fault because she started dying on this hill. But but we make mistakes as parents, so I wouldn't say it's her fault. I think it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Interaction between the 2 of them. I think we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Full. Yeah, I think there's an opportunity to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to say, Hey, honey, can we talk about something in the like, can we? And then, like, hey? I'm wondering if you think maybe we're like getting like talking. And then and that's a conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like we're grownups here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? Right? No, I agree. So I think, Michael, you said it. Well, the Internet wasn't as nuanced. I think they're missing an important piece here.

Host: Michael: Yeah, so 422 people basically were not the asshole. 35 were everybody sucks here?

Host: Michael: And those people said, You know, like you're right in philosophy. But the argument should have been held privately. You also need to respect your wife's opinions and have a conversation about how to handle this situation before it gets to this kind of part. And for me like this post was a very human

Host: Michael: reminder that, like, regardless of how much you read and prepare, and try to anticipate things that will come up with parenting. You can never cover all the bases. There's always going to be something that you think you're a hundred percent in the right in, and that your partner will be. And then you're like, Oh, wait, we disagree here. Yeah. And then 3 people said that he was the asshole.

Host: Michael: That you know that his approach undermines the wife, that they, as parents, need to be a united front, and that kind of stuff and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hmm.

Host: Michael: Blah blah so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So so only people called him out for his way. He handled this

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but everyone called out, Mom.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And in no scenario in the commenters did they say that we can have a productive conversation about a difference in front of the child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's my ideal world massage packs. And we say, Hey, honey.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: this seems really important to you before we continue the conversation with Junior. Can we take a minute so that I can understand your position and just do a little listening while letting the argument. Maybe deescalate a moment and then proceed from there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's there's so many, so many.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Again, we talked talked about a lot, a lot of missed opportunities. But I'm I'm just. I'm

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm getting stuck on the way Dad handled this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: With with Mom and not as mad. But I totally see what the Internet's saying about like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think it was that Michael's fucking up the kids relationship with food, you know, and being stuck in that place myself as a parent like. I want them to do this, but at the same time, like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Where do you draw the line? And I don't. I don't know the good answer to that. That's part of the reason I didn't

Dr. Daniel Kessler: posited quite as strongly as I've come down on many different sides on this issue. So.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Host: Michael: well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just eat your food, or don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Michael, thank you for reminding us of these very human parenting moments. There are common struggles. These parents aren't the only ones who are are kind of trying to make their way through this. Thanks.

Host: Michael: Yeah, please follow and share veritas views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the credits for whatever that bonus conversation is going to be about.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: alright. So I have a question for you for you, Dr. MacBride, you and I have been doing almost entirely or entirely telehealth network since essentially the pandemic began.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And now and now that people are meeting with people in person, we're still doing, was there something that surprised you about working with people, 100%, virtually.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like not like I did like. I didn't expect this thing about working with people virtually that like should really shocked. What was the surprise for you?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But they got better.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You are that skeptical.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know we had never done this in a really well, I had never done this. I'll speak for myself, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: The pandemic was clearly coming, and it was one of those. Well, we don't have a choice right? And at the time we naively thought 2 weeks of of whatever disruption home for a month whatever.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but I really

Dr. Gayle MacBride: let me back up from it. So I had been part preparing to pilot a virtual program.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Me too! Me too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I was a little concerned about the dynamics of the rollout, because the primary offer was going to be a virtual appointment over an in person appointment, and I'd never done this, and I really thought that that was going to be a disservice. I thought it was. It was kind of backward in organization, and since it wasn't something over which I had influence to change, I decided to put a pause on my participation of the pilot program

Dr. Gayle MacBride: right? And that was in maybe December of 2019.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know, when I was 90% trained, I had taken.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: December of 2019.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know right. I take it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not doing that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And had all of the you know, all of what I needed established, except I think I didn't have the head, the required headset or something like that. And you know, come

Dr. Gayle MacBride: February early March, I was like, Oh, shit, we're not going to get an option. We're just going to have a thing. And so, you know, I took my computer and my headset, and I went home. And I mean quite frankly, for a while. There I officed out of my son's bedroom, so he'd have to get up in the morning and go to school, and I would. I would sit at a table in front of his closet doors because I didn't have an office space that I could close the door, and, and, you know, reliably use.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so I you know I did that, but I didn't know that I would expect people to get better, and you know we had never done this, and the doubt was, is this as effective over the video screen as it is in our offices? Can we can we do good work this way? I tend to be a cognitive behavioral therapist that works in really relatively brief episodes of care. Right? Here's your treatment plan. This is a treatment. We're going to follow a treatment protocol, and we're done. We're done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and you know, great working with you. I'm sure I'll see you again, you know, somewhere in the future, and I do a lot of that. And I remember feeling incredibly successful the 1st time I was able to, after a protocol of treatment. Go, wow!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You're better, wonderful! Right like it was. It was that validation that I needed, that this was as good as being in person. Now the thing I think I miss the most. When I do, the video is, there is, and you and I both will do this sort of carrot top style, little bit of performative

Dr. Gayle MacBride: to make a point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And that's a little bit lost when you don't have that hands on experience with someone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, if they.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I try to replicate that, but it's never as as robust as when I'm in my office. But yeah, I mean, really, honestly and truly I was impressed and surprised and thrilled to know that doing your work via video was as effective as being in person. That's a long, winded answer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: A long, winded answer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It really was. But I really wanted to kind of piece it out, and why I was so surprised.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you. Alright!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cool.

Host: Michael: Yeah, that's interesting.

Host: Michael: I do remember some of that as well. But anyway, it's interesting to hear you reflect on it now that it's been 4 years. So

Host: Michael: on 5. Yeah, anyway. Thanks everyone for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, they are joined by Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy (she/her). She is a licensed psychologist, an AASECT-certified sex therapist, and a certified emotionally focused couples therapist. She specializes in sexual health and relationships and owns her own private practice in Minnesota. She is the co-author of the book, Desire: An Inclusive Guide to Navigating Libido Differences in Relationships (https://amzn.to/4fTtXMg). You can find her at her webpage, https://drlaurenfogel.com/, and on Instagram and Facebook @drlaurenfogelmersy

In this episode Dr. Gayle MacBride mentioned the show "Heart Stopper", (2022) so here's a link for that: ⁠https://www.netflix.com/title/81059939⁠ 

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our trio of psychologists again today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. I'm thrilled to be back here with my business partner, Daniel. Kessler and also Doctor Lauren Fogel Mersy has decided to join us for another episode. She is an ASECT certified. I going to tell you, by the way, that always sounds looks sex to me, so it's such an absolutely named organization is a sex therapy group, which with which you get certified to do actual sex therapy. Work and so Doctor Lauren Fogel Mersy is a specialist in that as well as certified in emotionally focused couples work. Welcome again. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really appreciate you joining us for like a bonus podcast you had originally agreed to do 1 and after the first one I'm sending. It's just so much fun that you decided to come back and do a second podcast with us. So thank you so much, Lauren.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Oh, it's always fun to talk. To you both and you as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, you got. Ohh boy. Michael, you got something for us, right?

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, welcome. All three of you. But first off, for the newbies out there, if you don't know what am I an asshole is, in short, someone's posted a scenario on line and asked readers who's the asshole here. That's. Hopefully we'll determine today, or at least weigh in on. I guess I should say when there are any kind of identifiable information on the post. We've changed those to be a little more discreet. And if you're new, you should stick around, because we always have some kind of bonus conversation. So today's topic is, am I the asshole for telling my boyfriend to stop eating so much? This starts off one of my very favorite ways, which is acknowledging this is such a stupid fight, honestly. But Internet do your thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And as we know, because we all do couples work. People almost always come in and saying, you know, tell us that they fought over the stupidest things. I mean, yes, we fight over big things, but usually I find people just absolutely falling apart over something that was just a tiny little Pebble in the shoe and we just lose it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But it's, it's almost always about we step back about this. The thing has been building and this this insult is emblematic of some major issue in the. Relationship. We get caught up on the thing instead of talking about the problem that underlies it or is that your experience with, with, with couples, or what? What I mean, how do you react when people come to you and say?

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is the dumbest thing ever.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah. I mean I like validate, right? Like we could be arguing about cheese. Like, it really doesn't matter what The thing is because it's usually about something deeper. Like we're saying, you know, the Gottmans who are a couple therapy and researcher experts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

MHM, MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Talk about how the number one thing that couples fight about is nothing, but really what they're talking about is it could be anything. It's not really nothing it's anything because it's really about something deeper and usually that's something deeper, is more of a core relational or attachment need that they need to know that I matter to you and I'm important to you. And I'm a priority and you can.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There and those are interwoven into these content conversations. Yeah, I love that. The way you said that. I also love the statistics. The statistic rather, that comes out of the group that says 69% of all conflicts will never get solved. Like we're not here to all. But we're here to talk about it. We're here to be emotional together and supportive and validating and those things. And This is why these little Pebble. Issues keep coming up is because we have these. What Scotland is called perpetual issues and they rear up in different ways through different activities and tasks and. And episodes in our life. And so we're not always looking to solve it so much as just be caring and supportive partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And that message a couple sometimes like, but we can't resolve this issue. Yes, and that's pretty normal to not like that's not necessarily the goal. The goal is to build the relationship and to develop a. The connection around these things and then the, the, the, the. If your goal is to solve the problem or resolve the argument and figure out who's right, you're probably not going to succeed most of the time.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, always tell people that the goblins are love. Optimists, right? They think almost any relationship can work. There's a couple caveats to that, but this is not a doom and gloom statistic. This is coming from a group that really believes in long term loving partnering relationships. So you know that's just keeping helping doors dose of normal here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But we got off track.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

That's fine with statistics vary. I was just going to say I find this statistic to be very hopeful in that, you know, a lot of people will take it as like, Oh my gosh, we'll never solve anything and we'll be stuck and we'll be unhappy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Please.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

No, it really means that I mean, a lot of people will second guess their relationships. Am I with the right person? Are we compatible? Should we be together? This means that across the board, no matter who you're partnered with, you're going to have a set of challenges. The question is, which challenges are you willing to grapple with over time? Yeah. And we just want to make sure that the ones you're grappling with. They're not non negotiable things for you where you have a complete like I cannot live with this kind of scenario then that's that's a different story, right? If it's a non negotiable usually what we're grappling with is negotiable things. They could be flexible, they could be things that we actually do have. Have the ability to kind of tumble with over the years. But this question is really interesting, right? I mean, the automatic response that both of you had was like, yeah, this is just a tender topic, right? What somebody's eating, how much they're eating. I would be so curious. What is the concern behind the food intake? Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So we should probably based on that look. Into the restaurant there. And jump in with books and covers. Lauren has definitely brought us back to what we're supposed to be doing. Here. Thank you.

Host: Michael:

And this is one where intellect has beaten switch, but it like goes in a direction I didn't expect from reading the caption. So. So here's the rest of it. And it's fairly short. But it says during my undergrad, my parents covered my grocery bills to support my health. They never set a limit on how much food I could buy, but I. Always stayed for a goal. With about $200 per month now in grad school, they're generously helping again, which lets me focus on rent and loans without stress. I still plan meals carefully to respect the generosity, though I'm female 25, the problem is my boyfriend, 27, eats almost everything in my kitchen when he's over snacks, frozen meals, meat, even half eaten cheese. This is forces me to spend my own money because I don't want to increase the grocery bill when my parents are covering. And it's wrecking my budget, we've argued. He's saying my parents are paying anyway, so I shouldn't worry. And I eat at his place too, but not nearly as much. I think he's being inconsiderate. He leaves nothing but vegetables and couldn't and could eat less or could stand to. Eat less. I've banned him from cooking and taking raw ingredients and now limit what he can eat when he visits. After the third time he stopped talking to me. I think this feels petty, but am I wrong here? Who's the asshole? Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, she's got a little bit of a. Streak of of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Stuck with that? Yeah. I don't like how. She's going about it. She's she's made her her bones unknown, but then she's banning him and she's coming in with some harsh judgments about about, you know, he could stand to eat less. So let me be clear. I don't like the boyfriend's behavior. I think he's being disrespectful.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like I'm not going to let. Her off Scott free. So I don't take that with what you will. We're here to debate.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

This is this is taking a turn that I.

Speaker

Hi.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Didn't foresee, right? I thought at first this was going to be about like the consumption and something about bodies or vanity or anxieties or something in that nature, and this is really this is a. Valid concern to bring up, right? I'm on a budget. You're coming to my home. Home I am trying to stick to a budget and I am trying to be respectful. Both of you know my parents helping me in this in this way and being very thoughtful about how much I spend and what I spend my money on. And you're coming to my place. And so this is really a conversation around. Requests and boundaries and limit and respect.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. I. Here's a situation where in my home with my money, with the things I've purchased like I have the right to make decisions around that, I have the right to make to make choices around what I'm willing to provide and not provide for a guest in my home or a partner or boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever. And and to say like this is. This is my financial situation and this is what I've chosen to do in my home and. Whether she's being reasonable or unreasonable, and I think she's being reasonable. But whether she's being reasonable or unreasonable, she's setting a boundary for herself. Like this is where, like, she's not telling you she she kind of bait and switches. You're right, Lauren, she because it really isn't about her telling him what not to do. It's what her telling him, what she is willing to accept.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

What you. You at my house with the food that I have purchased and that you are welcome to enter into my space. And here's how you're welcome to conduct yourself in my space.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

That's right. I think this is a really important conversation for a couple to have, right, that this is my home, your home. Who pays for what? How do we distribute things? And, you know, conversations around what feels fair and equitable. And I think, Gayle, you're right that there's so much room for. How do you have this conversation right? So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If I'm thinking.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

It's not just like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

4 horsemen here. Uh-huh. Yeah, I think how you set a boundary matter.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

You can do this and just can't do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think you know, we think we gave us our forgottens earlier. You know, I think we, Dan you and I often acknowledged that we don't know actually how this information was delivered to the relational partner. And there is a little bit in this post that makes me very much concerned that we have some criticism, some contempt and certainly. And stonewalling. You can't, right and then to and like, I don't. I'm not letting him off the hook. I don't like his response. I really think he is not slowing down to listen to what's underneath the concern. They certainly have different ways to think about the support that she's receiving from her parents.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But we also have to acknowledge that these are often written to put a poster in a better light and I am very suspicious that what came out and what was intended or what we what we're sort of supporting is a healthy boundary setting. We're not the same thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Here. Yeah, I'm going to I. I heard it totally differently.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I heard her saying this is what I heard. OK, now she wrote it potentially the way people often pretend their own side of the story. But like I hear. Like what I heard is like I talked to him about it. I tried to get him to do it differently. We had the conversation. He argued back around when your parents are paying for it anyway, by the way, they're her parents and they're not choosing to pay for his food. They're choosing to pay for their daughters food. So he's like crossing their boundaries, too, by the way. Alright, so so like. Well, I heard more from this is not so much her her. Breaking some rules and being unkind. About it, I heard. Her exasperated and frustrated with like, I tried to do it the right way. And you're not listening to me, and you're still doing it your way. Anyway, and I heard like I heard anger there from from, from that and I didn't. I'm I'm still like, I'm letting her out. Holy Scott free here.

Speaker

Yep.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not at all. Because then she comes back around and she says and he could stand to eat less anyway. You know what she is angry and she is justified. A condescending comment. It's not OK, she commented on the on his weight and shape and took it as a dish. I don't like it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. OK, fine.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, she did mention the vegetables too. He only leaves the vegetables, which, by the way, is fine with me because that laid a lot of. Close I'm. I'm still I'm. I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So there is an. Underlying dig here and she is angry and I get it. And I think she's using it to justify sort of unproductive comments, which probably fall into I'm really angry. I've I've set this boundary, I've said something repeatedly to someone that I love and care about, and now I'm really frustrated and upset. And sometimes we get to a place where we justify. And a really unproductive comment, or I only yelled at you because, like, we start to then. Marshall, some maybe not for helpful data points to to justify our own not great behavior afterwards. So I think that maybe started an. OK place but I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Think addressed it. You're moving me a little bit on this, but I want to hear. I want to hear what if, if, if Lauren can resolve? The dispute between you and I on this.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I like her. Oh my gosh. What we're hearing is that we're missing a lot of information, and I think without that information, it's really hard to weigh in on, you know, who's out of bounds and who's inappropriate here. If I had this person in my office or this couple in my office, there would be a lot of things that I would want to know, right? How have these boundaries and requests been delivered? How have they been received? What does that conversation actually sound like and look like? And have we had conversations about not just the surface level you're eating? You know, a lot of my groceries. And that's not leaving with me, with a lot leftover and how I like to respect my parents gift in helping me with this. I would love to see or hear if there have been some more vulnerable conversations around us, right? This is really uncomfortable for me. I'm feeling disrespected, I'm feeling misunderstood or not heard. This is the dilemma this puts me in and I would really love to hear what the boyfriend. Is feeling and thinking and expressing around this. Where are you coming from? Because that's what's misunderstood here, right? It looks on the surface like he's being really disrespectful. He's just callous towards the parents. I want to understand a little bit more. Where are you coming? From Sir. You know what is what is your perspective on this? What is your, you know, position? What feelings come up for you? Because if it's just your parents pay, you're my girlfriend. I get to come over and just do. What I care to do, these may be some bigger conversation. For the relationship, right? Like if you are sharing really clearly this is my, you know comfort this is my request. This is my boundary. This is my home. This is how I value money and gifts that are given to me from my parents. And if those conversations turn into, I mean if it really is the cut and dry like you're my girlfriend, your parents pay. I don't care. I'm going to do what I want at. Your place those.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

May be bigger conversations for the relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That would be problematic for for or the. Will you eat food at my place like right then? We're back to fairness and equity, and how do we perceive that we share our respective resources as a couple? Like what does that look like and and do we feel comfortable with how we have divvied that up? I mean, not just because one individual and a couple perceives inequitable, sort of split doesn't mean the other one does. And.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Build on time for negotiation because both parties have to feel good that we don't get to get one person saying I think the line is here and this and because this is the way I see it done, that's just it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so often when we see things from our perspective, we really do believe that we're being fair and equitable. And when we're not and there's great sociological research around the tragedy of the Commons and all that other stuff that link in the show notes on that, like old media, start typing and looking.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM. OK, I love the line of. You know, they think they're right. Like starting from that point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Couple if they were to be in the office of a therapist, like I going to tell you, I going to break it to you. He. Thinks he's right. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We need to listen to at least better understand where he thinks he's right here and and and. Yeah, lean into that.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I need to know so much more. Yeah, coming from.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This would be a. This would be a terrific conversation. I guess It it, it almost has to be about this plus other aspects of the relationship. And when couples do come to us, we're yeah, we're dealing with the argument that came up most recently, but then we have the opportunity. We to to talk about like how how else does this occur and what is this really all about and not what it's really about? But what what, what does this mean to you and how what kind of conversations interactions are you having over time? Are you feeling respected in the relationship? Are you feeling nurtured in the relationship, are you feeling cared for? Do you feel like like you're getting your like you're getting your needs? Once met, they were they were connecting with each other and where we failing each other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I just had a massage fax version of this. As you were saying it, Dan. So here's my massage. In Graduate School they're dating. He's maybe also in school and on a really shoestring budget, but maybe I told you the flashback, he does not have. The financial support and resources like she does from her family and so he's really enjoying how her parents are taking care of her and providing food and. So maybe he's leaning into that and feeling kind of cared for in that food budget in a way that doesn't get and that he's, you know, working some pizza pizza job to, to kind of make his his food budget. And so he's not a I'm hoping he's not a caring and disrespectful or uncaring and disrespectful person, but rather enjoying this support that. Someone else's family has has been able to.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Give, which is exactly why it's so important to hear, you know, both of these angles, right. And it's so easy. And I think, you know, in the world of social media and even in the world of individual therapy, right. As as a therapist. It's so easy for us to just hear one perspective. That perspective makes sense. You know, it's like here's where I'm coming from. Here's what's happening. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And it paints a picture of the other person on the surface and on the outside. And yet we're missing data, right. We often do things, say things feel things that makes sense. Within our context, and until we understand the context, it's so easy to just jump to a conclusion, right? You're just being a jerk. You're disrespectful. You're but Gayle, you're bringing in nuance and a perspective and a point that could say, hey, I don't have a budget like yours. And I have some scarcity that comes up when I'm around. And so I'm just kind of leaning into sort of this abundance when I'm with you, where there's food access that I don't have at home or whatever the situation may be. But until we hear more of that and until they can talk like that with each other, we're going to continue to misunderstand. What's really happening and what's below the surface? So my first question, if they were together in my office, would be what happens when you try? To talk about those, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like when when working with I work with both couples and individuals and I really love to lean into Julia and John Gottman's idea of assuming positive intent. And like, let's assume that your partner, let's let's just start from your partners, not an. asshole. Just assume that and if you're because if because if you you know if you assume they're an asshole and they're not. It's a very like way worse than if you assume they're not, and it turns out they. But let's assume that your partner is not an asshole because you're choosing to be with them. What? Using gales words? You're going to massage the fact like, what are the possible other reasons why they could be doing this and really getting the person to explore? Getting the couple to explore? What are the other possible motivations other than the negative assumption you've made about? Your partner. And we've talked about a few of the two of you have talked about a few. Of those already here, but I'm sure there are. Many possibilities that we haven't even thought of and and and really get them to explore within that assumption that your partner is a caring, loving person who is not a jerk cause they are an asshole. You're that then we'll there's no point in having this discussion like be done with it. But like like we're going to assume that you going to be together and they're not. So what? What what are the? Nations. But what? What could it be? That's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Horrible. And I think that it's really easy here for someone in the posters friend group to say like red flag on the play. Get out of there, he's, you know, and then just. Shut it down. But what?

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

That's just so easy to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What? Yeah. What could happen out of some really good couples therapy, even if they don't stay together in the long? Run. They are now learning about their own patterns and how they can contribute to issues within the relationship. And so even if they get the opportunity to learn, hey, in this, this is how I contribute. Maybe I can do something different than the future relationships. So sometimes couples therapy isn't necessarily. Our goal is not necessarily to keep them together or break them up. Sometimes it's really to just kind of clarify these processes so that we can be good humans in this or a future relationships.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And in a situation like. This it is very easy to jump on. She's right. He's wrong. Black and white. Red flags, all of this kind of thing, which is really, I think, a tragedy in that we're missing so much and we might be bypassing some really great opportunities for relational growth and that so many things do fall within. You know, healthy sort of relationship experience. Experiences and one of the things that we're maybe assuming is that she shared a lot about her perspective and tried to get him to see where she's coming from. I would love to know if this person has also asked and got curious about him, right. Where are you? So here's where I'm coming from. Here's how I feel and think about this. Where are you coming from? How do you think and feel about this?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

What it's really about for you because until we can do both, we're missing information and that information can be really critical in terms of where we go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

From here, Michael, I'm curious, what do we get from the comments, really clarifying information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's a. The Internet will likely not have these new ones perspective.

Host: Michael:

I was sitting here listening to you guys and that is exactly what I was going to say. I was like, This is why you go. To therapy and not to the Internet because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's a great no, no. Exactly because I think this is so often people like all of my friends said this or I talked to so and so or I or I asked am I the asshole. And they said for sure. And I love what you said there, Lauren about like. Like it is so easy to jump to just just, just, just just leave it more. This is a red flag. Or, hey, this is terrible. And and and to some degree, you know, I feel a little bit of a guilty responsibility for like joining in with some of that with what we're doing even. But what we're trying to do here hopefully is is do that ask people to do that deeper dive. As we massage the facts a little bit, not because we're changing the scenario because there are so many possibilities here, there's so much beyond what what people just did that initial surface level. And if we can really dive into it, we can make a lot more sense.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

However, we're here to find out what. The Internet said. Right now.

Host: Michael:

And they very much said you're not the asshole for all the reasons you guys said, you know it is. It is your house, it is your food is your budget is your parent. It's your relationship with your parents. It's all those things, the problem then is for for the most part they started going down this line of saying that he's a narcissist. Do you need to leave him and all. This stuff. And so they're. You know, with all these things, like, you know, red flags, he's entitled to your food and in in possessions, that's a problem. He's entitled to your parents finances. I don't think so. Yeah, he doesn't care that he leaves little for you. Like he hasn't apologized. He's a greedy asshole. So and so on. But I will say my very favorite, even though it ends up being kind of a harsh comment about narcissism, it started with Yikes. On bikes.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

This is such a great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Example of one of the challenges with the Internet. Right as humans, we are really pulled towards a negativity bias and assuming negative intent and seeing things very black and white and this plays out in spades on the Internet. And it can actually be quite dangerous, right when you have everyone dogpile and to, like, leave him red flags tossing around diagnostic terms, right. It can be really easy to go in the direction of, oh, you know, I'm with the wrong person and, you know, everybody agrees with me. But I go back to something Gayle said. Right. You started to share a possibility. Right. What if this is somebody who has food insecurity? Maybe he's struggling. Maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And when you hear that and if any of. That could be true. That really could sway the conversation. The decision making, the empathy, the understanding and bringing it to a totally different, you know, conversation and scenario. So that is something that is so hard to find online. And I like to just really remind people, right. It's not as black and white. There's a lot of Gray and nuance, and there's a lot of missing information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Even when we bring people into, even when people come into our office. And we have we have, you know, 50 minutes sometimes to explore and we're still not getting the full story. You know, we're we're spending a lot more time than the OPS 2 paragraphs and then the argument about it, obviously. But there is, there's just so much opportunity to have deeper conversation. And I appreciate that, Lauren, that warning cause so often people, you know, we we do want to and I'm guilty it's myself make make that quick decision about the person with without without diving deeper into it and assuming that that.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They don't want to be a, a, a dick about it. So there's something to this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That was like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Usually something really vulnerable there.

Host: Michael:

Mm-hmm. I like going into the comments and seeing the ones that have been downvoted to the point that they have disappeared because sometimes they're super harsh or sometimes they're at this comment, which is whoa, whoa, no need to diagnose someone over the Internet because of 1 issue. All of your comments are based on one problem. You're making this whole point out of nothing because your boyfriend isn't a narcissist. Like you are not qualified to to label them as such, seek therapy now. That comment, unfortunately, was plummeted into oblivion because it did not fit the norm that everybody was happy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So quick to call out narcissist and shout narcissist on on the Internet. Honestly, I sometimes even see therapists do that when they with a post and say I need, you know help I need there. I need someone to take this client because they're they're spouses struggling with. Narcissistic abuse or something like that. It's like, but if you're seeing them in individual therapy, we don't have a full picture. No, that's not all calls for those kinds of referrals. But, you know, I think we feel really free to talk about that narcissism more of these days. And I think we're really prone to using it very quickly and.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Often inaccurately. I think this is the downside to therapy, making its way into social media is that we've really, you know, watered down a lot of complexity and human behavior and relationships, which are all so nuanced and complex, right? And Dan, you were saying at some point earlier about, you know, if there's a show on TV, right. I talked about this too, right? Healthy communication is not that entertaining, and nuance is not the flavor of the week and having balance and Gray and asking questions. Is not as quick baby and not as invogue as jumping to conclusions, raising red flags. You know, throwing around diagnostic labels. So I think this is something that we are all being called to keep in mind and to do. Better is to really not weigh in like I'm so careful. Even here, I don't want to weigh in on one person scenario. I've I've never met, who I've missing data on. Like. That's dangerous. Yeah, in some ways. And the Internet is getting, so it's rampant with these, like, you know, quick. You know, debates and leave him and this and that. I would just be so I would be so sad if someone. Went on the Internet, grabbed the you know sum total of what everybody saying and made some like flash decision without more information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right I about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think we're prone to this just because it hits that that dopamine button, it hits a high reward button when we when we do these black and white kinds of of assignments here and click baity headlines and that.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And I appreciate what you offer. There is some back and forth like well have we considered this? And what about this? And what about that which really shows that there's so much more to the conversation? Yes and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And and we're we're, we're we're happy to sometimes make snap judgments, but then we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You should walk them backwards.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Do want to die. Yeah, we, we, we we're like yes no. And then I then I then I walk around. It could be and and you know you you bring a point here that like, good, good therapy the, the reason there isn't like actual therapy in in television for the most part is like good therapy isn't all that exciting and interesting to watch like even the even like there's a the couples therapy show. Like it's it's. It's like it's like 1030 minute episodes that are 4 different couples and they've like, they've grabbed snippets of it along the way. And they're interesting enough. But like, if you actually watch therapy in real time. It it, wouldn't it? Wouldn't be all that exciting because there's an awful lot of diving into things deeper and having conversations and looking for, for for opportunities to connect with each other and be vulnerable and and and to move away from some of the some of the sort of stuff that is really fascinating. And as you say, Lauren, click Beatty. On the Internet that that really doesn't mesh with with what good psychotherapy looks. Like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Good therapists are not telling you to stay or leave a relationship. How to conduct yourself in a relationship like those are decisions you get to make for yourself. And I would never. Or take over that decision, or assume that I know more than the person who's in it. My job is to help them explore their needs and their boundaries and what they want, and find ways to communicate that. But yeah, no therapists should be telling you to leave your relationship for some of these big, like, life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Right. Vision and we get asked. Sometimes people say should should I should I stay? Should I? Should I leave them or should I stay the relationship and like I am never going to answer? That question for you that is.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

So they don't have the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Answer right. Exactly. Yeah. There's no way I can answer that question for you, but we can explore this.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I'm not in it. I'm not you. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We can explore that. What's your feeling? What you're thinking? What's going on? Get into this deeper. But like that question. No.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And it's not because we're withholding an answer like I have the answer and I'm just not going to share it with you. It's because I don't. I don't know what it's like to be you. I don't know your values might be different. Your limits might be different. What you're looking for is different. You have to decide that. But I can help journey alongside you to figure that out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, anything else from our comments or?

Host: Michael:

I was going to. I was going to add one other thing. So, I mean, my favorite are usually the diversions from the comments. So, so much of it was OK and narcissist leave him red flags, blah, blah, all that stuff. And then then there was this thread of $200 a month for a single person in groceries. Tell us some of the things that you do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Nonsense.

Host: Michael:

Like, how do you keep your budget to $200.00 and what kind of meals do you make? And so then there was like. Wonderful outpouring people on the Internet and like looking at like, well, yeah, because really like, there was a recent study in 2024 that just said, like a single person average budget for groceries is somewhere between 2:50 and 4:30 a month. Like you're really doing a great job. What kind of things are you doing? And she's like, well, I shop at ALDI and I eat a lot of rice and beans and fresh vegetables. And so they're like recipes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you know, to someone who follows an almost entirely vegan diet, it's actually it's not. It's not that hard to to to keep the keep the meal budget low. I can see $200 a month for one person. Yeah, I can totally. See that right? So. So so I like this side. Sidetrack conversation. I do want to roll rollback to this idea of. Of of people making the snap diagnosis, you know, I saw on social media this and this. I have ADHD. I saw on social media this and this. My husband is a narcissist or my my girlfriend has borderline personality disorder or I'm I know I'm bipolar. Can you can you can you get me to the right. And it's like, hold on a second here. Like, there's a lot of good information out there. And there's also, like, anyone can say anything and and and put it. Out there and you know, a medical professional, a psychological professional has gone to the 22nd or 23rd grade to learn some of this stuff. You're not going to the, the, the as informative. Theater. It can be that 45 second TikTok. Well, it might sound exactly like your partner. There's a lot more there. Like, let's dive deeper into this. And and and and not call anyone of this or that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, looks like they know someone who's not in the room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. Yeah. And I've said the people ask me was my partner of this. Like I've never met your partner. Right? No. You know, I have no idea if they are not the behavior you're describing may be problematic. That's this reason, or good for this reason. But I also don't know the context of that behavior, and I don't know what actually happened. Like so often, people say my partner said this and it's like, well, what did? What happened before that, you know? And what happened before that and before that?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And what happened to the 15 years before that? Like there's a lot of what happened before that here when people just bring in and and this this scenario is is, is, is is potentially one of those like what happened before that and there's a lot more to discuss here. Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And I think in general, people aren't willing to put themselves in a bad light, you know? So the version that you get on the Internet is definitely the best version of themselves. Often. But anyway, thank you all three for another riveting debate into a glimpse into the collective conscious Internet forums. As always, as we pointed out a number of times, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And as Lauren said, conversation is not necessarily the flavor of the week. But you know what? There's some damn good flavors out there. Butter pecan being one of them. Well, it's not. Maybe the most popular flavor these days, our goodies. So let's keep conversation alive. Keep talking to your partners and assume positive intent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Assume positive intent.

Host: Michael:

And please follow and share veritest views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and. And as always. Stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation, OK?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. So last year, last season rather we started to experiment with some this is that sort of lightning round. So I have this is that question for for Lauren and Dan today I want you to stop and think about it. I just want you to answer and then if you want to explain, I'm going to ask you to kind of keep. It really quick. And brief right, I want to sort. Top of top of mind. They have really maybe a little to do with psychotherapy or psychology, so this is that. Lauren Gates are skis. Skis Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Neither. I don't want to reduce the friction. The level of friction between me and the ground should never be reduced.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

1. No, this is not. I know you well enough to know that that is. Not entirely true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Now that it's entirely it is picking the king. I refuse to hand. Fine. Fine, fine. Skis, skis, skis.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, no, no. How many guys? How many bicycles are in? Your house. OK, thank.

Speaker

You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, this is that Dan Bango or Banksy huge. Come on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, Banksy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Lauren. I can agree I like that. OK, Lauren, I don't. I don't know if you've played this before or not, but there there are two popular games. Cards Against Humanity or telestrations. I don't know. The second one. So I'm going to go with Cards Against Humanity. Telestrations, telestrations. Dan, you want to describe the game.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's it's. It's like a game of telephone with both drawings.

Speaker

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So you should go out.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Ohh Cards Against Humanity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh no yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Politicians, it's a lot of fun.

Host: Michael:

If.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If your drawings are shitty, look mine are. It's even better alright.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So yeah, the game is you, you get a, you get a prompt and you draw it, and then the next person guesses what it is, and then they draw based on your guest. And so it goes back and forth between description and draw. And then the bigger the Group A little bit.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Or like Pictionary?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Kind of, yeah. And then very quickly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I stand by my choice.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. If you stand by your answer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think it's fantastic. I really doesn't.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Think it really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Speaks to my sense of humor and the sex therapist to me, and also the like. Very youthful part of me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I love it, OK? And I'm going to hand it to my audience a little bit. I forget who I left off the left. And so Lauren beans all.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Right. Oh, that's hard. I know. I like both. And they go together. I'm going to say beans just because, like, as I'm getting older, I find protein to be really an important energy source. So let's go with beans.

Speaker 1

Fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Beans, but preferably together, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, of course. Because he goes so well together. That's why I forked. That's why it was the first choice.

Host: Michael:

MHM.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that's my 5 bit to that. Thank you very much for playing along.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thanks so much. Thanks everyone for tuning in. TuneIn again next week for a whole another a my lasso debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, they are joined by Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy (she/her). She is a licensed psychologist, an AASECT-certified sex therapist, and a certified emotionally focused couples therapist. She specializes in sexual health and relationships and owns her own private practice in Minnesota. She is the co-author of the book, Desire: An Inclusive Guide to Navigating Libido Differences in Relationships (https://amzn.to/4fTtXMg). You can find her at her webpage, https://drlaurenfogel.com/, and on Instagram and Facebook @drlaurenfogelmersy

In this episode Dr. Gayle MacBride mentioned the show "Heart Stopper", (2022) so here's a link for that: ⁠https://www.netflix.com/title/81059939⁠ 

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic trio of psychologists today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi. I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. And with me, as always, is Dan Kessler, my business partner. And our very special edition is Doctor Lauren Fogel. Mersy. She is a licensed psychologist who is ASEC certified, which means she's a sex therapist and she is certified in emotionally focused couples therapy. One we are so excited to have you here little bit of fan girl. She is also the co-author of one of those. Amazing books called Desire, an inclusive guide to navigating libido differences in relationships. Welcome, Lauren.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Excited to have you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this is really. And I was telling Lauren before we began recording. She's like, oh, your book is behind me. I'm like, yeah, because I use it a lot with the folks with the couples I'm working with, though, and. And as I mentioned, we're not. Because, like your colleague, but because it's just a really good text on the topic or I didn't say, say text. It's a good book. On the topic. Text makes sound like it's hard to read.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know it. It's not. It's not. I read it. And I told Lauren at one point. I heard her. Voice like it has. And her, like her. I don't know how you did that, cause you have a writing partner here who is is a.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Contributor and you guys worked so well together to create. This familiar just kind of compelling voice throughout the book, so it's not a text, it is a read, but it certainly fill the hole out there in the literature for people who don't understand desire and discrepancies and how to be inclusive about that and be supportive in your relationship. So not the book not plugging should we so appreciate that so much and it's.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Thank you so much. Funny cuz you'll say you know it has my voice and others say it has Jennifer's voice, so I think it's kind of a blend, which is what we.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't know Jennifer very well. So we.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I know, I know, I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Your voice.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, yeah. Depending on who you know, you can sort of hear us hopefully in the in the topic and in the rating.

Speaker

Hello.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, it definitely comes through. It has a warmth to it. So I appreciate you writing that and you guys working on that. So we should we.

Speaker

I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Should talk about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I'm so happy that you're joining us here to figure out who's the asshole. So Michael, do you have a give a question or a prompt for for? The three of us today.

Host: Michael:

I do. And you know, I always try to find something that I. Think will strike. Either of you as interesting or cause some kind of interesting conversation. It was an interesting challenge to find one for. Three of you. But I think I found I found. One will do the trick, but for any of the newbies out there who. Don't know what this is. Am am I the asshole? Really a method of putting a scenario out into the world and saying a reality check of like, hey, who is the asshole here and was that me? Sometimes it is. So when there's been any kind of identifiable information we usually try to make it a little more discreet and you should also know if you're new stick around through the credits. We always have some kind of. In this conversation. But so far, Lauren, Gayle, Dan know nothing about what I'm going to throw them away. I'm so. Let's roll this. Is what we got today. The topic is. Am I the asshole for putting the kibosh on my son's naked vacation?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just going to go with yes right away. I'm going to judge a book by its cover. But but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sort of hoping this one is like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Three, I would think this. I would think that this is an adult son. I would think this is an adult son. Alright, Michael, please tell us. Tell us the rest of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Probably an adult, but you know.

Host: Michael:

So this is the case where.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The story please.

Host: Michael:

Sure, sure. And this is the case where the apostrophe actually comes after the S, so there's two sons involved. But I'll. I'll read the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh, she said.

Host: Michael:

So this is this is what we got, and there's a little bit of setup, but stick with me. I think it's all worthwhile. So I'm a very proud father of two boys, 18 and 19, who will be completing their freshman and sophomore years in college. This spring, they're doing great in school, excellent grades, despite both being on athletic teams and lots of extracurriculars as a reward for them doing so well, I've told them I would pay for a vacation during spring break in a few months, anywhere they'd like to go within reason. Now this becomes a sticking point. Later on, the Internet wants to know what that conversation. Looked like and exactly how clear he. With the within reasons with the code, no, he doesn't clarify that unfortunately, but OK. So then the boys wanted to go to an all inclusive resort in Jamaica. Apparently a whole bunch of their friends from school have the same idea, and they're doing a big fun group trip. I love Jamaica. Then several times myself, but I started over hearing details that gave me pause.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Within reason, yeah.

Host: Michael:

The resort they want to go to is literally called hedonism. It has everything you'd want in a resort as far as activities and such, but the whole place is closing. Optional and some of the places like one of the beaches and a couple of pools actually are required to be nude and they have things like play rooms and happening huts and one can only imagine what goes on there. There are theme nights like naughty nurses and fetish leather and lingerie. I gave a hard note to that. I want to reward them, but I'm not going to fund what sounds. Like nothing short of an orgy, they're not impressed with my decision. Not in the least. So am I the asshole for backing out of funding their vacation that I promised.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, this is this. This is nuance I've got so many. I've got a yes and. A no in my head.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I can. Certainly I. I mean, I don't want to. I don't want to ever choose to place my ethics over someone else's ethics. That's, you know, at the same time it It's my money and I can choose what to do with my money. So I'm not necessarily I don't know the right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It's. It's a bit of a struggle. Lauren, do you have?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, Lauren. What? What? What? What? What? I something like we're on zoom here. If you're listening in a non video format, we like we saw some like ohh. I saw some.

Speaker

Interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Lauren, what's behind the? What's behind the looks?

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah. You know, I think this is like, so many ethical dilemmas. So when you go to school to become a psychologist, you do a lot of ethical debates and you get thrown, you know, situations and scenarios much like this one, right where it's like, there's nuance, there's maybe not a clear answer. You could maybe argue several different points, and I think. That that's true. At least for me, I find that in clinical practice, things are not always so black and white. Right. And so it makes so much sense that this is challenging and to your point, Dan, like we're not going to tell somebody what their values should be or what is OK for them to spend their own money on. But I think I can see definitely both sides to this right. One is these are young people who. You know, being thrust into a very highly sexualized. Mario might be challenging for them to navigate as very young people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You said that so well you really. Celebrate being being thrusted in. This is being difficulty navigating a highly sexualized atmosphere. That's that's well stated.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, I think or something you know. Like 1819 years old, that that's a lot to sort of figure out and you may not sort of know how to do that very well at that age and there may be a lot of impulsivity that can come. In a scenario like that 1818 years.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

1890. How you say?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No 18 year old young men. Yeah, impulsive. The hell you. Say, right? Right. But I you know. Just getting into some of the nitty gritty here, like the typical age range at a resort like hedonism is. Is not 1819 is my understanding.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I would assume that it's a bit older. Yes. I would also assume because a lot of 18 and 19 year olds can't afford that for themselves, right? So this is a scenario where a parent is footing the bill. So yeah, they might be, you know, an an anomaly or outlier in terms of age range.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, look like. I think they I think I think they good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think that Dad is is not just maybe judging the scenario but also feeling maybe a bit protective. I mean if I were a parent and I understood even principles around enthusiastic consents like do these 18 and 19 year olds have? Enough skills to. Sort of navigate that. Now we're bringing in this idea. Of some older individuals who, you know, maybe can't afford this kind of research themselves, but whether or not these. Teenagers can really do what they need to do and wrap themselves around that in a kind of higher pressure environment. We're on vacation well with friends. We're supposed to be doing all of these wild things, like there can be some implicit sort of pressure or coercion that could happen here, and they maybe are a. Bit at risk.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, this sort of. Oh, go ahead, Lauren. Yeah, the pot.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Oh, I was just going to say, yeah, absolutely. That there's definitely a a sense of protectiveness that I would assume is inherent in this dilemma, right, that you're the parent. And if you fund the trip knowing what they're going to be doing, that may be, you know, giving the impression that you can donor consent to what they might be doing, and you don't know for certain, you know, all that's going to be involved in what they're doing. You have an idea maybe of what they're doing, but there may be consequences to some of the choices that they make. That they may not be fully aware of. So the other thing that I think of the other sort of side of the coin is this is such an opportunity for conversation between parents and children. For conversations around consent and safe sex practices, and like giving thought to how they want to operate in these relational spaces and sexual spaces, and what would it be like if you were to go to something like this and what kind of choices would you want to be mindful of and what would be? You know what are you going for? What are your goals? What? You know, what do you want to be thoughtful of in terms of how to respect other people? I mean, there's just such an opportunity for really good sexual health and education conversation here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I'm. I'm imagining like, if this is a group of people going, and that's what that sounds like, not just the. They brought the brothers, but alsome of their friends, like they're not all going to be in the same space and I could totally see this pressure, this feeling, this pressure, to engage in practices you didn't feel comfortable with. To to they're giving consent to going, but the actual being in a place is sometimes quite a bit different than we imagine it's going to be. I'm. I'm also trying to imagine, like, like in my head and. And Full disclosure, I've never been to hedonism, but. Just imagine. Yeah. Yeah. OK.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yes. Yeah, you never know where life. Will take you, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You know what? Yeah, she is spot on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're. You're right. You're right. Yeah, I. I just I envision. It being sort of a a couples atmosphere and I envision sort of sort of couples that are not 1819, but couples that are somewhat older, you know 30-40, fifty range. And I'm trying to imagine this like group of spring breaking 18 year olds showing up at this resort like I think they may envision this like one thing and find out that it's a whole bunch of older couples going. What are you doing here? Well, I maybe I'm just totally projecting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then the resort staff have to deal with this, I'm sure often right, these things showing up with this idea of hedonism, right, as opposed to keeping a safe and respectful environment for sexual activity and, you know, and maybe exploring and playing and those kinds of things that are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe not what that resort staff want to be doing because 1819 year olds. Can be kind. Of difficult to manage and then you put alcohol on board if, because I'm assuming that this kind of resort has that kind of thing available. And boy, that's just going to be that feels like a nightmare scenario really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. I'm just not. I'm not envisioning this as being like what they think it's going to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, not at all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't envision the resort being super stoked about them being about them, like showing up and like I have, but then I have no idea. I just like I'm I'm projecting a lot of my preconceived notions having never having never been.

Host: Michael:

So I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, you say?

Host: Michael:

Looked I looked it up really quick because I was curious. The average age is 40 to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

60 So that's right. You know you can afford it. So then we're back to this idea of within reason, right. Or you know, that offers to pay for a vacation. This isn't the vacation he wanted for them and has some reservations. And he wants to back out. He wants to say, OK, I don't want to pay for this.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK, OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is not. This is not what I had in mind. So we're really concerned obviously about the safety and the well-being of these boys going to this environment. But is that an apple for backing out and, you know, I think we kind of touched on it earlier, you know, Dad offered to pay for this, but at the end of the day, I do think it's dad's money. I have a parallel, but not nearly the scenario is when you know. Our children, you know, we give them or we have offered to buy things, you know, at different times because. They're children, child. And there have been times where it's like, yeah, no, I'm. I'm actually not buying another Lego set. Like, I can't even tell you how many pounds of Legos exist in our home. I don't need more. So. No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hi.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I will buy you something, but I'm not buying that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, so In Full disclosure, I have an 18 year old be 19 next year and. I won't get into my thoughts about what I would do if you would suggest to this, but it's an it's it's certainly an. An interesting thing to ponder as a parent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Parent do you fund a trip to an expense of all inclusive out of the country, regardless of nudity and sexual activity, or is that just the no go because it's really expensive? That's not what I meant when I was thinking about a trip, you know, maybe backpacking through Spain, you know, but kind of a little bit on the cheaper or Portugal or something like that as opposed to gosh. Sending you to an all inclusive resort, which I sort of imagine is maybe on. The spend to your side. Right. Do we take that piece of it out? Or right? Because what we're trying to sort through is the confound of our judgments and concerns about that kind of resort from the extent.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think what would? Be so cool. Is regardless of whether this parent chooses to support the plan or not, and to use this as an opportunity either way. To have some conversations with these young boys and to maybe even talk through the decision if the decision is, you know, I'm not comfortable with that, I would want to encourage that parent to maybe share a little bit more about the thinking behind. Right. Like here's my concerns. Here's what I'm thinking about. Here's what I want for you. Here's what I don't want for you. Here's where I'm feeling protective of you. The other thing that I would be really mindful of is what kind of message is being sent around sexuality.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

So I think there's a way to both say I'm not comfortable sending you on this trip and that's not because sexuality is bad or wrong. That's not because exploring is, you know, not being. Encouraged, but it may be because this is not the demographic place for you. This is a place that I think there's too much stimuli all at once, and it might be overload and overwhelming to you as a young person and where I don't know that you're developmentally ready to make all of these decisions at once. And so I don't feel comfortable. With that, which is different than you know, I want to shut down sexuality. I want to shut down exploration and I want to send you a message that, you know, sex is bad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or wrong? Yeah. One of the things that comes up a lot in this podcast, Lauren, is this idea. That so many of the interpersonal conflicts we have are resolved with a with a good conversation, and so often it comes up. And I joked that every almost every ROM com would be like spoiled by a good conversation 10 minutes into her of him goes Oh yeah, and acts like a grown up and makes a good decision and makes a better decision. And then you know, roll credits. And this is I, I love your description that. This is a. A perfect opportunity to sit down and have that nuanced conversation. No, I'm. Not putting the. My Bosh, or judging your sexuality. But I am making a choice about, about, about and I am talking with you about your, about my concerns around where you are developmentally and all that I love that conversation and I think that those of us who are parents who are listening have had hopefully had these conversations with your kids. They're they're like sitting down and having, recognizing the nuance. In in much of. This yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I know historically we have not done a really great job of creating open environments to have these conversations. And I think as a parent looking at at least public school sex education, it's appallingly limited. So I really think that we have to do. A better job. Hire children to be have these open conversations even if your kid is telling. You, my gosh. Mom, you're so crazy.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because if you don't, where can they have those conversations? Lead me actually to to a question. Have either of you seen?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The show heart stopper. No it. No, it is OK. It's a really interesting show. And Dan, your voice is in my head so much as I was watching this. It's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sorry to hear that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no, no. High school kids in the UK navigating relationships and attraction and sexual identity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And at every turn I expected this to be that typical sort of like ROM com. We didn't have the conversation formula and I they they created the show almost maybe to the extreme other end where these kids have, like thoughtful conversations. And when they say, hey, I was kind of butt hurt about this thing like they don't. Sit on it and let it faster and then have like some sort of side off like active storyline, they just come back and say I. Was about heard. About the thing. And then how really interesting. That's horrible. It really is a it was. It was a well done show that I really enjoyed. So if you haven't. And you're interested in having these kinds of conversations. And I think maybe even helping raise these parents. I'm not sure how they raised emotionally matured children to have these kind of sexual conversations because they were a little bit in some, in some cases, a bit repressed themselves. But I thought it was a good model and I would love for children not there to be able to talk to each other. Children, I mean, they're like. 151718 years old. Yes. Good. Not like children.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Children, Kilburn, Kilburn.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not having emotionally mature conversations about sexual activity and intimacy and consent, and I mean even to the level of just, may I kiss you. Which. Which was really really. Great. So a little bit of a plug for the show because it dovetails into a little bit of here what we're talking about in terms of youth and decision around sexual activity and what's OK and what's not OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I've got a curious Lauren getting back to the original question here, would you be willing to render a verdict on? Dad, is he the asshole? If I put you on the spot here.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I don't think he's an asshole for setting a boundary based on his concerns. I think he has a right to do that because it is like we said, his money. It's also his children and he is the adult in the room, right? So I don't think that makes him an asshole. I think it is a nuanced conversation and I think. I mean what he's offering is very kind, right, and very considerate to say, hey, go. Go on the trip.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yep, I do get to, you know, sort of say yes and no to the final verdict of what you want to do. And I think there can be some really good parenting opportunity in this. I think it would be he would be remiss to just do, I think what old school parenting would do is just say no. And then that's the end of the conversation and. We're done. But such an opportunity, like we're saying here to sit down and actually talk through the decision, talk through the concerns. Maybe you can ask some questions of these young boys about, you know, have you considered how would consent look? How would the sex practices look? How would you deal with feeling? Any pressure or coercion from your peers? From what's going on around you, how would you stick to your values or your boundaries in an environment that maybe is pushing the limit? Such great opportunities for really active, thoughtful, intentional parenting? So I don't think that's an asshole thing to say. Hey, I'm not comfortable with this and to just be really clear, it's not because I think this place is a bad place. It's not because I don't want you to explore. It's not because I'm trying to put restraints on your sexuality, but I also think you're not in a place yet where you can handle that much happening.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

All at once. Yeah. And I also don't think it's maybe the right place for you being 19 with a bunch of 40 year olds.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. First off, learn. You've totally convinced me that this is the correct answer. And on top of that like I. Want to say to these these these. These these young men like you do realize that they're all going to be like all the everyone there is going to be your mom and dad, your, your mom and Ice Age. Right? Like, like, that's what you're like. Like, it's not like it's going to be all like old. Folks like us like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Do not realize what they're actually signing up for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They have this probably fantasy world in their head of what it's going to be like and. Like it's not going to be like that for. Them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I see this conversation that you've modeled learned, which is so beautiful, and I look good. My 1819 year old had on and I'm like, yeah, I'm not buying it. Like, did you just won't allow me to go like, I think there could be there could be some pushback. But ultimately I think, Lauren, what you're saying is there are no assholes here because I also.

Speaker

It's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Really nice, yeah.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think it's normal at 18 and 19 to want to push for this kind of thing. I want to do it. That's what they're doing. It sounds really fun. I'm. I'm not happy that you are telling me no to this because you know this dad has had a lifetime of telling his kids. No, don't XYZ because it's dangerous and they're going. Yeah, but it sounds like fun. So I see the.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Back here, I think the boys may still think Dad's an asshole, but I think at the end of the day I don't. I think that we are in agreement. There are really no assholes here, even if the kids push, the kids are pushing because.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Kids push. They don't have to like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, no, they're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's no, they absolutely don't have to. You're right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, there, there, there. This is one of those very rare situations where there just are no assholes here. I totally get the 1819 year olds and their their the thoughts they have in their head and the lack of clarity. Around, around thoughts and understanding sexuality in this greater level, I totally get dads like my money and I don't feel comfortable with this like I and I get that as you said, Gayle that like totally see the kids pushing back some and saying but you said and you know what I, they're no assholes here. So Michael, what did the Internet say?

Host: Michael:

Well, the Internet's always fun. I. I thoroughly enjoy their feedback because, you know, sometimes they they pile on and sometimes they go unpredictable ways. And then this time, like it took some interesting turns. So for instance. Several people hypothesized that this was a promotional post for hedonism. They're like this is your only post. He's like, it's a throwaway account, and like there was, like, this whole argument about whether or not they were promoting resort. And anyway, so that was kind of funny. Other people criticized him for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ohh.

Host: Michael:

The way he wrote his post, he used like bold and italics, and they're like that, you know, that's a dick move and he's like, I just learned how to do this. And so like he, he weirdly, like, responded to those kind of things but did not respond to other questions that people asked. Which was like, where's Mom? In the equation or other parent like, are you a single parent? Like, what's the situation? What's that conversation like? Why are they not involved and he didn't respond to? Any of that. But for the most part, people came on the side of you're not the asshole. You guys said it's it's your money. You know what's best for your children, even though they are adults. You know, you should definitely have a. Yeah, I mean, the right on that cost.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ish. Adult-ish adult. 18 like you're legally an adult when you're 18, but you you have yet to develop the ability to really project yourself into the future and understand consequences of actions. So while you can buy a car and vote and do all. Do all of the adult things the brain like. It's not the adult brain until like, what is it 232425 in there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Sick, I think in males actually.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

These guys are 8 more years of brain development.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Look in males. Maybe, maybe 80.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah, 80.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. Eat. I'll say meal, though. You're really giving us too much credit. If you say 26, but there's a reality here that that they're that they're that they are not like Lauren. You referred to them a number of times as as boys. And I refer to them as men. And to be perfectly like I want to kind of roll back and say no they don't. Have fully developed adult brains and I think I think boys may be a more accurate word to use.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

You're right on the cusp, right? So like, isn't it legally? You know, they are. They are men. They are boys. They're sort of in between. And you know, even though they're at a place where they could, let's say, fund a trip like this themselves and figure out a way to go, and they would be within their right to do that as legally, you know, considered adults, this is also about, I think, again, sort of looking at the adults who's in the room as the parent and saying. Hey, I kind of see some things about this that you may not be thinking about and that you may not have considered and that you may. Not be prepared for and it's my job as your parent to consider those things for you to think about those things for you and to present those things.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To you? Yeah. You know, I had an interesting thought. And these conversations that you're suggesting and modeling, they're obviously all the right ones. And then there's this little part of me that. As a parent. Like they could even rent the hotel room because we're talking about what what these boys to men can do. Yeah, I know. I had to. You know what? What they can do often, at least in the US, you can't rent a hotel room until you are 25 or 26 years old. So there may be just a a practical limit here. So even if you want to fund this trip on your own, and now we find that you can't, am I the apple for just sort of dumping it on that? Please stop it. Like stop. Yeah, but I know the right thing is fair and just. To have that deeper. Conversation. It's hard for parents, too, to have. Have those conversations were not socialized to have them and they could feel awkward. So any parent out there listening, going, Oh my God, I'm supposed to have these really deep sex conversations with my kids. Keep in mind it's OK that it's hard, not awkward for you too.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's it's funny because I you know, I do work with couples around sexuality in their relationships and feel very comfortable. OK we talk about sex and very clear and frank terms and have these really thoughtful discussions. Would it as if I'm going to fess up to this as a parent talking about sex to my own children. Now, like even the adult children, it's like. Yeah. So like it's I, I and I'll, I'll, I'll fess up to how incredibly uncomfortable it is even while like I may have just talked to someone about all sorts of detailed stuff and I step out of my office, my kids and like, oh, you know, it's really. These are tough conversations to have.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And it's both ways that that's uncomfortable quick to normalize that right like. Talking to your parents about facts, knowing that your parents have had like, it's all kind of icky. I'm I'm a sex therapist and when my mom or my dad will bring up like a sexual conversation or topic, not that they do that very often, but even just the mention of the fact that they. They've. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Feel like going out?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Breathing to the other direction.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And my mom was like, is there ever going to be a time where you're not totally icked by the fact that, like, you have parents who are adults who've had, like, a life with? And I'm like, no. Right, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or watching something that's highly sexualized or sexually charged and you're in in theater, in the room with your parents when this scene is playing out, there's just a little, like, comfortable.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Well.

Speaker

Oh my. God.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

OK. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And like. You said we talk about it. We can be really frank. We can be really descriptive like we have. We limit your conversations and yet it's really also very normal for even the most practice of us. To have feelings about the topic, personally, yeah.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

It's normal when it's your own parent. When it's your own child. And I think that that's sort of built into us, right, that that those are. There's there's biological reason for that to be so uncomfortable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Personality to that for sure.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, yeah. Right. And yet the more you have open conversations and the more you know that dialogue is not something that just happens once or twice, which is what we used to do, right. If you did that at all, like one talk and that was it, right referred to as the talk.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The talk, the talk talk.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Right, right, right. Such such an inadequate situation to just bring up the subject very briefly in passing and then never bring it up again, right?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What a huge mistake.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

And a lot of young people really need that coaching and that mentorship because they don't get it somewhere else. They're they're not getting it at school and they're not getting great mentorship from friends and peers. And so they need somebody in their life who's modeling how to have these conversations.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do not learn sexuality from another 14 year old, right?

Host: Michael:

Let me let me add one more thing really quick to the Internet side that I think you guys might. I'm curious to get your take on that anyway. So the other most people said not the asshole. The few people who said you're the asshole kind of went down this. I mean, many of them said you promised blah blah and then well, I didn't know. Like, what were the guard rails you put on it and whatever. But the part that I thought was kind of interesting that came out of that was the people who said money aside, assuming that's not an issue. You're preventing them from having experience and failing. Sometimes you need to let your kids fail and modern parents don't do that often enough. And I'm just kind of curious, like, you know, if you could imagine where you don't need the money to go to Jamaica and have this experience, it's it's fine. That's not. Problem, but letting them see whether it lives up to their expectation or not, and then live kind of what the consequences and learn from that I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think worry. That's a big fail that could. Be a permanent. Life altering kind of fail as opposed to a situation I'll pick myself up. Dust off, kind of like.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

I think we want to support children. In having developmentally appropriate consequences. Mm-hmm. Right. And not to say that those consequences couldn't be realized in one-on-one scenario, they could go down to, you know, a a southern state to the US and be at a hotel and, you know, similar consequences could be realized in terms of unintended pregnancies or skis.

Speaker

MHM.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

However, I think the overwhelm of being over stimulated with the number of partners available at a resort like this, the breadth of sexual contact. I think it's possible that that's just not developmentally where they are and ready for. So I think when we want to let children and kids or young adults experience life and fall and get back up, we also want to protect them from, you know, making decisions that they're not ready for or, you know, having consequences that. Just don't meet where they are developmentally.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Where? Where? Where? I see this is the difference between I do believe it's important that kids fail. You want to let them fail, but you don't want them to be harmed and what what we're talking about here is a situation where it's not just that they may fail, but they may fail and in some way experience harm themselves or cause harm for others. And so that that that's where I would, they would just respectfully disagree with the intern.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, yes, my kids can fail, but I don't want them to harm be harmed in that failure. We want to want that failure to occur safely, you know, so I'll disagree with the. Internet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, I completely agree with you, Dan. It's about sort of titrating a dose of failure, giving it to them, but not allowing them to fail spectacularly in ways that they would then be harmed. They're just some things we wouldn't let them do and other things that you think.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, they're acceptable. Fear. And it feels like these are as a parent, I would think and as a psychologist, I think these are real. The big risk these kids are asking to take.

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

Yeah, it's not that, you know, the adults who go to a resort like he doesn't hedonism are all being as thoughtful as we're suggesting. It's not like everybody has great conversations around consent and, you know, coercion and harm reduction and all of these things. But again, opportunity to model some of the things that just. That are great and when you go in and you don't have any vision for sort of what is your sexual ethic, what are the things that you're going to do to make sure that everybody is safe and? Protected. You know, you're certainly, you know, maybe not seeing that as much in the adults in the room, let alone, you know, people who are just butting into adulthood.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, thank you all for joining us and thank you all three of you for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, as Lauren said earlier, morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, yeah, this is. This is a fantastic, really wonderful challenge. Michael, thank you for bringing this to us. It really, it really got us thinking through clinically. But also I. Think in just very human and parenting kind of ways.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Please follow and share of our test views. Any of the podcast platforms, the neighbors and friends and as always, stick around through the credits. Or whatever the bonus conversation happens to be about.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus. Conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Well, we, Dan suggested we do a throwback question. We had ended our season with some this and that kind of questions. But Dan, you you suggested going back to going back to the beginning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes. What what? So in your office we have and again people aren't necessarily seeing this, but wow, you are just like plants behind you. Like so, everything in our office is usually has like we we intentionally choose these things either to to show something or to to to part of ourselves or just to have a nice pleasant therapeutic background. Love these plans is there is there specific reason?

Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy:

For them I have. I have a lot of plants both in my Home Office and. All throughout my home. And you know, I think it started off like you said down before, just like they're esthetically appealing and they're, you know, comforting. And they're they just provide a nice atmosphere. But I started to realize over time that they also had another meaning because tending the plants, watching them grow, making sure that. You know you're you're showing them care when you don't tend to them, they can die. And I started to see some parallels in my, you know, planting of. Would youth and sort of how humans grow, how relationships grow, what it takes to sort of cultivate and tend to to both right and so just watching the little things that can happen like a new leaf that develops is like really cool to witness when you start to get into the plant. The world and I started to see this parallel about like, you know, it takes time to see growth inside or interpersonally and relationally. And then when you do, it's just so satisfying to see that new growth to see that new, you know, whether it's a neural pathway or a behavior or something different. But it also takes time. And it takes intention to create that new to speak.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wonderful. Yeah. She's God, I know I'd say. That's terrific. All right.

Host: Michael:

Thanks again for joining us TuneIn again next week for a whole other. And my last full debate.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

During the episode, Drs. MacBride and Kessler mentioned a clip from the film Annie Hall (1977). 

Here's that clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7nPkpdFAic

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined here by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi! I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride. Dan, welcome back. It's the New Year I've missed you, my business partners joining me today. This is Dr. Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hi, there! Yeah, we've we've taken off the last. Last couple 3 weeks, as we always do. It's about. It's about boundaries. At the end of the year and taking the time for self and for family. And it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that's all great. And now we're back to do more podcasts and talk more about stuff and talk shit and get puzzled and conundrumed by Michael. So let

Dr. Daniel Kessler: let's roll with the New Year.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Woohoo.

Host: Michael: Yeah and the new season will have some things we alluded to at the end of the last one, where we have like guests on the podcast so we're looking forward to that.

Host: Michael: But to start the New Year, it's just the 2 of you and me, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And different.

Host: Michael: But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: My neighbor's shoveling his driveway right now. I shouldn't do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just looking out my window here at my neighbor, neighbor, shoveling his driveway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wonder if he would do mine?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right. Sorry I got a little distracted there. It's the beginning of the year that happens.

Host: Michael: Yeah. Well, for any of the Newbies out there who've never listened before. If you're not familiar with this format, essentially, I've done is, I've gone out and I found an am I the asshole post on the Internet? And you know that's a situation where the poster lived through an experience and is trying to get the Internet to weigh in like, who's the asshole here? And that's hopefully what we'll determine today. So

Host: Michael: where there's been identifiable information. I've kind of scrubbed it to make a little more discreet. And if you're new, also stick around through the credits, there's always a bonus conversation at the end of the podcast so, but for now neither Gayle nor Dan know or have seen this post, or read it, or any of those things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Any of those things. It's all new.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And we do that like some of these. Some of these like people they they know ahead of time, and they sneaky. Say that they, don't we, we? This is all like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really don't, although I have to say doing this for almost a year. Now I do sort of go through life, and at times wonder?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Am I the asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Good? And am I the asshole like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: In contend to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't wonder. I just know.

Host: Michael: Michael, what do you have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Have.

Host: Michael: Okay, so this is this is the header. It is. Am I the asshole for telling my sister? That's implied that she'd have to pitch in around the house that she's staying in rent free.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, that's the headline.

Host: Michael: It's a little wordy. But yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Little wordy.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, they're trying to cram a lot of details into the headline where we usually get something that's super clickbaity. And I want to like jump to an answer. This leaves me wondering about both both parties here, OP and the sister, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: 2 more.

Host: Michael: Yeah, okay. So the poster is 30 female, and she says Inherited a house from my maternal grandmother near the city. It's just big enough for me and my husband our 2 kids with the tough housing market. We're lucky to have this home, and couldn't afford one otherwise. My half sister 25 recently got a job in the city center, but couldn't afford to rent nearby or commute.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm interrupting right here for just a second. I'm like, why does she need to say half-sister.

Host: Michael: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Anyway, anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, okay, I will say, maybe because it explains why the OP. Got the house and the sister didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Maybe maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Maybe a grandmother that's not biologically related.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just starting to be judging. I'm starting to judge you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, you're wolf, boy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Distance between her and her sister, like she's my half sister.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I think it's to explain why why the sister didn't get the house, because otherwise the Internet's gonna jump all over. Well, that's not fair, and she should have gotten the house, and you are 50%. And I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Already. I'm the asshole. Right. Go ahead!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: A little bit.

Host: Michael: I love it. Okay. So then, resuming, since we're close, I offered her the guest bedroom, especially after she struggled to find work. Following a layoff. She said she would help out around the house in return. She's been living with us for about a month and started her new job. She occasionally helps out when asked making dinner or putting the kids to bed. And it's been fine.

Host: Michael: Recently, on her work from home day. I asked her to pick up my youngest from school because the nurse called and said she was sick. I couldn't leave work due to major train delays, and my husband wasn't reachable. Our house is a 5 min walk from the school, so it seemed reasonable to ask her. My half sister texted back, saying she'd try. After her meeting. I called and asked her to tell her boss. It was a family emergency, but she said she couldn't take the time and didn't want to babysit for the rest of the day.

Host: Michael: I reminded her that helping out was part of the deal. When she moved in, she argued, she's not free labor now. There's tension in the house, and I'm wondering who's wrong. Here am I, the asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, God!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I really understand OP's position as a parent who's had sick kids. And yet

Dr. Gayle MacBride: they're not the sister's kids. They're not her responsibility, and she's been on the job for a month.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: maybe a family emergency, maybe, maybe, but I don't know that that this is the sister saying I can't leave work to to pick up my. I don't remember niece or nephew from daycare, and then be babysitter after starting the

Dr. Gayle MacBride: for no like I kind of. I think I'm on the side of the half-sister here. I don't like how she did it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but I think I'm I'm leaning toward half-sister.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, you're wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, yes, I can. Always. I can count on you.

Host: Michael: Elaborate.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Tell me when I am wrong, which I deeply, deeply appreciate. Please tell me, in what way am I wrong?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean, you're not. You're not totally wrong. So I mean, the problem is that this OP here is globalizing. And the sister is globalizing a little bit. They're doing like, I mean, in this one situation, it may have been very reasonable to say, Hey, I've been on the job for a month. I can't do this, and that's what you said, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But that's not what the sister said, the sister said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

00:07:51.240 --> 00:08:00.960

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I? The sister didn't say I've been on this job for a month. It really isn't like I can't. I can't do this. I can't piss off my boss, she said, like I'm not free labor. I'm not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, that was kind of an asshole thing to say for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, so so like, if it really was that it was a work situation, and she just couldn't like, I am so sorry I am. Really. I just started. I just I just can't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm good with that. Okay, but that's not the fact pattern here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Given the fact pattern of the sister, saying, I, you know this is not. I'm not free labor, and I'm they're not my kids, and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm and and the part where where she's like not helping out unless ask.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, you're living rent-free

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like you should be. You should be helping out without being asked, and you should be jumping in and doing stuff. And maybe this is the wrong issue to bring it up around the childcare piece, which isn't her responsibility. But given the entire fact pattern and the conflict here. It's not really about the kids. It's about all the other stuff it sounds like. And the kids are what got her pissed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right. So in relationships, whether they be romantic or familial, right rarely is the argument about the thing. It's all up and about the you know the other things, and so I completely agree with you. And you know what we have discussed in previous in our previous season. Often enough is, you know, we get this from a particular lens. And so let's imagine OP comes into our office.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: huffs down on the couch, and it's like, Oh, my God, my sister's such an asshole, let me tell you. And you're like, Oh, yeah, right like you can hear it. But what we don't get is, what did the sister really say? What we hear is what OP said, the sister said, but you know, when you're pissed you don't actually hear what the person said, you hear your version of it? Right? And so it's not a. It's not a hundred percent representation of maybe what actually happened. So I'm a little concerned that it's

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that. Maybe, sister said the thing more gently, more clearly, like, Hey, I've been on the. I've been on the job a month, and I know it's not the fact pattern, and I get that from the from OP. But she may have said that, and sister heard it as no, I'm not responsible for your kids. Dude not going. I'm not going to do it. And so she's posting about that. So I just want to be a little bit cautious about how the story is being presented before we absolutely jump down. One.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, in in your massaged fact pattern.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Charge for what was presented by the way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: For those not watching this on Youtube.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That was almost the second spit. Take in a row.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, I mean in in this, in the fact pattern you've described, where you know, you know, where we where we give, and I agree with you. I really do want to hear this. I would love to sit down here like this, sister, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I could totally hear the sister saying, you know, every time I sit down. Can you do this? Can you do this? Can you do this? Can you do this? Can you do that? And she's constantly asking me for help, and it's like I feel like I just have to do everything for her around this house. I appreciate living here, but I'm just getting sick and tired of being asked constantly to do stuff. And now she asked me to pick up her kids. That's just totally unreasonable. I could see that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, you know what movie clip I'm hearing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Know, I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You set that up, didn't you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's the Annie Hall Movie Club.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of course.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I caught myself I caught it. We'll put a link in the show notes here, or or Michael will. I know he loves.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Clip.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: To the clip from Annie Hall. It's about. It's about frequency of sex, and it's absolutely wonderful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: it's so. I yes, I could see that differing perspective, and all that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If we're gonna just stick with the facts provided.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's a good idea. I mean, that's what this is about. So let's let's stick with the facts as presented.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's just being an asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If we were to say if we were to look at what is

Dr. Daniel Kessler: probably happening here, which is, it's somewhere in between our guess and what this and what the OP. Has said maybe not so much. Maybe she's being put upon too much, and that's something I'd really want to try to figure out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. The facts as presented. Yes, the sisters being an asshole because she really is in city center. I mean that suggests a really high rent. But then, what the expectation is from the woman who owns the house is, you know, essentially for the sister to be doing 2 jobs, a housekeeping job and her paid employment, and it may not be

Dr. Gayle MacBride: reasonable to, you know, in terms of the distribution of labor here, I think when you are ready to give over a room, I do think there's some boundaries and some expectations that you need to put into place, and maybe create some clarity around what you need that person to do to feel like you can generously give that room over.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But don't do it unless you really can give over generously. Yes, this person's going to be living in my house, and they're probably not going to be giving back to that household equitable to what I would have made in rent. That's not going to happen unless with them working outside the home. That's that's just not it. You're doing it because you're trying to generously set your sister up, to give her a little time to, to save some money, to be able to to move out on her own. There needs to be time limits here, and some labor limits.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm reminded of something I heard. Oh, gosh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: 20 years ago, long time ago it really stuck with me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Someone once said, Don't even remember I heard it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If a family member asks you to loan them money, and you feel comfortable owning the money, do it, but as you loan them the money. Think of it as a gift.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hopefully they'll pay you back. But the reality is that family, because things get tight and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know the bank's going to repo my car. But my family is not. Family often gets paid last.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and if you just assume that it's a gift you'll be happy with them. They'll be happy with you. If you get the money back you'll be. Everyone will be even overjoyed if you don't. You know you've helped out a family member, and it may may have been the same attitude may have been useful here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like. You know what you can live with me if you can. I would love it. If you had helped around the house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It would have been nice if they'd set some parameters like you do, all of your own shit, so I don't clean it up to you at all, and maybe you know you throw down this or that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, and you maybe agree to babysitting, you know, once every other week, so that Heavy and I can go out to for a date night. That'd be great like, I think that seems really reasonable. And I do understand that it's sort of an unanticipated

Dr. Gayle MacBride: challenge when you have a kiddo that needs to be picked up. Let's say mid morning because they've gotten sick. And now you have kind of your workday stretching ahead of you, and I think the other. The other problem here is we can easily slip into this idea of work from home means I'm hanging around the house all day

Dr. Gayle MacBride: when I work from home, you know I close my door and I'm pretty unavailable. Maybe I'll be able to switch a load of laundry, but I sure as Heck am not watching a a daycare, aged child, you know they need quite a bit of supervision and attention just from a safety, let alone care standpoint, and I don't think it's reasonable to ask a working person to watch a child. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, and if you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Would frown on it. You know they wouldn't want you home watching your baby. They want you working and having care for your baby.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This is absolutely one of those things that's an argument about something else.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And they they end up picking, probably unintentionally, that this this most recent issue. I would be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I would really want to sit down and hear both of them and I. And I'd want them to talk about what their relationship is and how to. There's there's a great. This is one of those. It's a great opportunity for familial couple counseling like the family therapy where you sit down and work out this shit. So you can have a really great relationship. And everyone's on the same page

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because it sounds like they're just not on the same page.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Here and could be like this is this, this is blown up to be something awful, but it doesn't need to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right. And because it's family, you have the potential for such a long history of maybe hurts. Or, you know, disappointments right? I could see the OP. Being kind of the older sister and getting this house, and then I'm always looking after you. I'm always saving your butt, and it just becomes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Family.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Pile of stuff. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So so it sounds like we're in agreement that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, follow this fact pattern precisely, and OP is correct.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sister's an asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What we've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's your judgment. No, I don't agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: With the strength of that. I think that everybody sucks here. Given this fact pattern because I don't like the Ops attitude, even though the sister communicated, you know, lacked some, maybe nuance in the communication. I don't like how she bit back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hmm, okay, I hear you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I still think in the original digital fact pattern, the sister is more of a Dick

Dr. Daniel Kessler: than OP. However, I think we both have strong doubts as to the

Dr. Daniel Kessler: accuracy of this, that we both think that chances are this has been massaged a bit, not intentionally, but see things through our own perspective, and we both, and we both think that maybe it's not like the sister's not as bad a person as as Opie is making her out to be. And there's another side of the story that we're not getting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Alright great Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Do we miss.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Everything from the Internet. Yeah.

Host: Michael: Well, I am.

Host: Michael: Yeah. I mean, I went through the you know the post, and for something. I guess new this year that I thought I could. Do. You know, AI, is this thing out there, and I'm always kind of interested in what I can do with it. And so what I did is, I actually took the post and fed it into AI. And I said, Give me a tally. I want to know how many votes for each of these different things.

Host: Michael: Wow!

Host: Michael: So robot overlords, please do this for me, and

Host: Michael: the votes are no assholes here. Got 2 votes. Everybody sucks here got 13,

Host: Michael: not the asshole got 54, and you're the asshole. Got 1,213.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wow!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Everyone thought OP was the asshole.

Host: Michael: Absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because they see through this massage level communication. But I'm just guessing Michael did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, I mean.

Host: Michael: Why, people thought the you know what were themes?

Host: Michael: Well, for that I.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Internet think we were. We were wrong according to the Internet. Wow.

Host: Michael: So the 2 things they we are

Host: Michael: hung up on they really got hung up on 2 pieces. One was that the child is your responsibility, not your sister. Childcare is not a chore, it is a it is a they said choice. I don't know but you can. Anyway, whatever it's it's your responsibility.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not once you have the child, then you are legally mandated to provide care.

Host: Michael: Yes, and then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I hear that I hear that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Utility.

Host: Michael: And then the other piece of it was that you don't, you know work from home is not just. You don't get to dictate what she does on work for home. So the comment that kind of encapsulated that the best was this one that said calling her boss was way out of line, and could be detrimental to her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wait, wait, wait, so wait.

Host: Michael: This was a piece that I didn't share with you. It was actually in the comments that she clarified that she actually tried to reach out to the boss.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, see! Whoa!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know so like.

Host: Michael: But that's not wasn't part of the original thing. So anyway, like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Totally wait! Wait! I am totally changing my my boat. Here I am completely changing my vote.

Host: Michael: I didn't tell you that, cause it's like The Diplomat show. You don't need to know that part yet like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, no, no. If if OP reached out to her sister's boss, she's the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Wait. Let me massage this for a moment. What if? What if the sisters share a boss sister got a job in the same office and OP. Reaches out and says, Hey, by the way, I'm stuck in office. But you know my sisters work from home today. Do you mind if she's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So that's too massaging. That's.

Host: Michael: Okay, so wait. Just ignore that part. Ignore that question. Because really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really, hard.

Host: Michael: I know, I know, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Host: Michael: Once that was shared. It kind of took over all of the threads.

Host: Michael: But

Host: Michael: this is the part I actually wanted to share with you, which was, she was literally in a meeting

Host: Michael: when you contacted her. She's new, and said that she would do it after the meeting was over, or would try. Your daughter is sitting in the nurse's office for a little while, and that's not the end of the world. Sounds like she does help out without any complaint. She was even going to help you out here in the middle of her workday.

Host: Michael: But you weren't patient enough to wait, or to give her that kind of time. And so that consideration of like this is a new job. And just because it's work from home doesn't mean that you get to diminish the you know the importance of it, or dictate what her day looks like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really glad you brought that up, because that was one of the things I had in my head as you said it, and then forgot to kind of come back and articulate it, which is, you know, as a parent. There have been times where I've not been able to get to my kid bang on when they're when they're ill, and they sit there in the nurse's office. So even if massage facts for a moment, Sister says, Okay, I can pick up my niece and I will have her at home. The mom's responsibility. OP's responsibility is to get her ass from work.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: figure out the train situation and get home and take care of that child. You know this should been should have been a brief ask not an all day. Ask like she took. What is, do me a favor. Pick up my kid because they're sick, and get them home in their own bed to stretch on all day, which is absolutely unreasonable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I'm totally changing my my vote here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And yeah, I mean, I've I've done the same thing, Gayle, where? Where a kid and I couldn't get there. My wife couldn't get there. Kids in the nurse's office like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: School nurses understand that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Quickly as possible, like I don't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't wanna abandon my my sick child, but sometimes it's like, No, I can. I can. I can get out in a half an hour, or you work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know you work a half hour, 45 min away. And yeah, I can get there. But it's going to take me a little time to get there, and there's like, all right. Now, if you said I won't be there till 5 o'clock, it'd be different situation. But

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I really I am. I am like over the top.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: annoyed with this, like you called you violated that boundary you called.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's so uncool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Boss like. No, It. In fact, it's the fact that throws into doubt everything else that she said about what happened.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't buy her story at all anymore because of that.

Host: Michael: It was funny like you could. I mean, obviously, this is all

Host: Michael: asynchronous, you know, like it's it's static, you know, but you could see, like the progression of this train wreck like she just kind of threw this out there as like, Oh, yeah, I did this thing. And like all this other stuff, and everyone's like what? And then like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You did. You did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Host: Michael: like they wanted clarification like, how do you know the boss? How did you get the boss's phone number? All this stuff? And she was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Like Nope.

Host: Michael: That's it. No answers anymore. I'm done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, right, someone now. And we see this sometimes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They really they did something terrible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And they're going to post a massage fact pattern

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so that they can say No, see? I asked the Internet, and they said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I disagree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You disagree.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I disagree. I mean, I think that's ultimately kind of what happened.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Your version of it assumes she had a level of insight when she.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: For confirmation. I really I mean, you don't post this, and then I and think you are wrong, but hopefully come back to your sibling and go. Look, I'm right. The Internet says I'm right. I think she just had no clue. She's totally tone deaf that you don't call somebody else's boss. Could you imagine if I called my husband's boss and said, By the way, I can't get out of a meeting, you need to let him go like, even for the spouse. That would be terrible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It would be. You know you're right. Even for a spouse it would be terrible. It would be. It would be absolutely terrible. I'm just imagining, like my colleague, my colleague, my my wife's boss like, hey? I can't get out of work. Can you let her out the rest of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? Okay, okay, let me massage it just a moment. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You please. No massage away at this point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Slosh! Away!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Has not been like, has not been up and up with us right? So now we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So what if

Dr. Gayle MacBride: a boss is your personal friend? And it's like, Hey, man, do me a solid, my! Whatever friend needs to go or sibling whatever needs to go. Pick up my kid because I can't get out. Would you please do me the solid of letting them go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You still think? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, I mean there was a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It is unprofessional and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There was a time there was a time when when my wife's former boss, was. It was a friend of ours, and we hung out with them sometimes, and like I still wouldn't have called him up and like, Hey.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, and It's unimaginable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Off the boundary that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Inspection.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's such a huge boundary to cross. It just makes me. It just calls into question where her boundaries are and what's going on for her. I'm really troubled by this behavior.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I think I think sometimes we we can overstep boundaries and get kind of enmeshed when we and feel entitled to do so when we've when we've offered to do

Dr. Gayle MacBride: what feels like a really big favor. And then, when we're feeling sort of put upon, we again continue to to like stride forward across someone else's boundaries, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And autonomy, and we just lack insight into that. So I would have liked these sisters to have a much clearer kind of set of of boundaries and rules around, how they navigate living in this house together, and how the sister gets the, I assume, younger half sister up on her feet and going. But this is not the way to do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, not okay. This is all. So there's many shades of not okay.

Host: Michael: Yeah, when she, when she

Host: Michael: disclose that information. It was like those videos where they have captured the moment where somebody said the thing that they weren't supposed to like. It was like the inside thought that came outside of their brain.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Host: Michael: And they didn't realize that that wasn't supposed to be said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, well, so you dropped a bomb, Michael, you you absolutely came back and said, Here's this thing that you had no idea when you 1st started discussing. What else have we missed? What else revealed itself on the comments or.

Host: Michael: No, you you really touched on most of it, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Bombing the whole of the ship.

Host: Michael: Majority of the Internet pre

Host: Michael: comment about reaching out to the boss really was like, it's work from home. But you can't assume what that day looks like, or her flexibility, or and that's above and beyond.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: All of.

Host: Michael: It's above and beyond asking someone to do dishes or cleaning rip around the house that kind of thing.

Host: Michael: There was kind of a side conversation. That was kind of fun that you guys kind of started to touch on a bit, which was, You know, how long is it acceptable to leave your child in the nurse's office, and essentially the Internet's consensus was, you know, you get there as fast as you possibly can. And you know, then this discussion about commute times. Come in there, and you know, communicating with the school office like, I'm sorry I'm 45 min out. I'll get there as fast as I can, whatever.

Host: Michael: And other people, you know, like saying, No, you got to be there in 15 min.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not really.

Host: Michael: Anyway, like you said.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sometimes you can't. Yeah, I mean, there, there have been previous jobs that my wife and I've had where it would not have been possible

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like. If you at that very moment walked out the door of the office, it would still be 35, 40 min, whatever. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I mean, I used to work an hour away from my kids daycare. And I had a moment where and I was. You know I was in a meeting, and I said, like, I will be there as fast as I can. But it might be an hour and a half, and I'm going to be the 1st one like right? Even my husband can't get there any faster. And the school nurses answer was appropriate, which is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, okay, but get here as fast as you can.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I will. I respect your time, because right now you've got to isolate my kid for whatever reason, and you're being exposed to whatever's going on. If this is contagious like. Now, I've asked someone to sit in a room with with my kid not feeling well, and you don't know what what's going on with them. So I think the only answer is, get there as fast as you can. But we need to really hold in mind that most things are absolutely flexible at work. There's very little that we're doing

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that is critical. Now, if you know you're a surgeon and you're wrist deep in someone's surgery.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Get it. But but yeah, you you otherwise you you cancel a meeting. You tell your boss I gotta go. Family is the priority.

Host: Michael: Yeah, what I always love about those side conversations is one. It's not what the post is about, but it's hilarious to watch them kind of take over, and then they often

Host: Michael: devolve into like this basic

Host: Michael: lack of understanding of people having a different situation than your own, you know, like I can get to work in 15 min. Why can't you? And they're like, well, literally, my commute is 3 times as long as yours.

Host: Michael: Okay? So like, I'm sorry, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Certainly had commutes that were that long, and sometimes sometimes you do, and it sucks, and you get where you can as quickly as you can.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it. It sucks. But you know sometimes the reason you make the decision for the daycare isn't always because it's close to your work, you know, that can be problematic if you live far away from from work.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Great.

Host: Michael: Yeah. Well, thanks again for another riveting debate. And, as you guys said, it was awesome getting back in the saddle again in the New year in season. 2.

Host: Michael: Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And truth is greater than your own reality. Right? Look around. Other people have other truths that are true.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really like that point, and we we make it a lot. But, like your reality, may not be the same as other people's realities, and another plug, for like we had a lot of fun stuff coming up this year. So it's going to be this, this new season is going to be, I think I think really interesting. So.

Host: Michael: Yeah, please follow and share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the credits for that bonus conversation about whatever happens to be on their minds today.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: 1st of all, Dan, if I haven't said it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Happy New Year. I'm glad to be here with you in 2025, and it kind of made me reflect a little about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's why.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know, and maybe reflect a little about New Year's and traditions? Are there? Are there things that you think are really important to do at the beginning of the year, or just, or or maybe even what is your take on resolutions like? Talk to me a little bit about about New Year, and kind of your perspective.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I think that I think we remake ourselves periodically.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And the New Year's as good an excuse as any

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to review where you've been in the last year, and what you want to do are you? Are you achieving all that you can? Are you? Are you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There are years that I've made like really important like these, the changes I want to make in the New Year. There are years when I've gone I'm resolving only to resolve. Nothing right now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Which I was quite successful at

Dr. Daniel Kessler: ironically and paradoxically, and whatever else. But I think that there are times periodically where it's useful for us to do some life assessment. I think about like some of the

Dr. Daniel Kessler: some of the older clients I work with who are doing some of that life review.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And it's so useful to do that periodically, I tend to do mine around birthdays.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And more than around like a

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Changing of a calendar year.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Changing calendar year seems for some reason more artificial than the day that I was born. I don't know why, but by telling you my my sort of life, review and reflection around birthdays, and especially big milestone birthdays.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think there's an awareness that different different groups use different calendars. Right? You know, the New Year for me is not the New Year for everyone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, no. And I think it's I think it's but I think it's a useful. I think it can be

Dr. Daniel Kessler: when when the time is right

Dr. Daniel Kessler: task to sit down and go. This is what. But but then we talk about. And maybe you need to do an episode about like how to do proper

Dr. Daniel Kessler: goal setting and resolutions and things like that, because I think it's really easy to make lofty, unrealistic goals and then feel like shit when you don't achieve them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have a mixed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Propose that we don't air that in January. Let's let's back that up into the middle of the year and make it as arbitrary as possible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Exactly so. I think it can be useful to do that if it's done correctly and well. And Yada Yada Yada, so. But.

Host: Michael: Thanks. So much for listening. Tune in again next time for a whole other, am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

During the episode, Drs. MacBride and Kessler mentioned a couple of books. Here are those titles:

• Anthony E. Wolf's Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me & Cheryl to the Mall: A Parent's Guide to the New Teenager (⁠https://amzn.to/48PvJfy⁠)

• Robyne Hanley-Dafoe's Stress Wisely: How to Be Well in an Unwell World (⁠https://amzn.to/3O4Cq3C⁠) 

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hey, we're going to do this again this week.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Aren't we, MacBride? We are. I am so excited.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Another podcast, another am I the asshole? Question that Michael's going to bring us and we get to poke at it. Isn't that great?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Fantastic. But before we do, we should introduce ourselves. Let's go first with fun.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, we should. I'm doctor Dan Kessler. I'm a clinical psychologist. Do a lot of work with relationships. Some work with sleep and the cool thing about working with relationships is it brings up so many different aspects of psychology and we're going to talk about them today through this whole. Am I the asshole thing? Happy to be. And I'll quick introduction here. My business partner, Doctor MacBride Veritas Psychology Associates. Been working together for 10 years now. Tell me about yourself.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Oh, oh, you said Veritas Psychology Associates.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Worried about your dimension? Did I say Veritas psychology associates?  I got our business name. Wrong. Yeah, that's terrific. Michael, can you fix that in post?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes, I'm doctor Gayle MacBride. I am also clinical psychologist. I've had the privilege of working with Doctor Kessler and Kessler for almost a dozen years now. And relative.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In a while.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Newly in a in a private practice setting, which I've been thrilled to do, we've had a great adventure and quite frankly, I'm the glue that holds us together because we have not given our intrepid host a moment to introduce himself, or even a word edgewise. Today, I am pleased to also introduce.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, hang on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The other Doctor MacBride on the line, little known fact to our regular listeners, doctor Michael MacBride as our host today.

Host: Michael:

Just the Doctor of books and words though. So if you need a prescription for one of those, I I will happily write once.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Got you covered.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you actually give really good book prescriptions. Yeah, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Thanks. I appreciate it. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Michael, will you take it away and? Do your hosting duties already?

Host: Michael:

Sure, absolutely for anyone who is not sure what they've stumbled into, this is our podcast where we take a am I the asshole situation, you know, somebody on the Internet has posted the scenario for. Readers to weigh in and I've gone out and I found that I have not told Dan nor MacBride about it. And I'm going to put it in front of him and see what they do with that. I I always like their perspective. And you know, I've DE identified the post. So like it's a little more discreet and that kind of stuff as well. And if you're new, I'll also stick around through the credits. We're going to try something different. And our bonus conversation today. So we'll see how that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

If you are a loyal listener and you go, what the hell is happening here? I just need to let you know we've gotten a little maybe loose at the end of our season. This is the last episode of our season, but continue to to listen and we're going to we're going to bring you some treats.

Host: Michael:

Ah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

While we're on break.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And as just to correct. Briefly, Dr. MacBride, we've not got. I have wanted it. I've gone a bit Rd. here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Straight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've gone a bit rogue and a bit astray, and so it's entirely my fault or responsibility, depending on how you look at. So Michael, you got you got a scenario for us.

Host: Michael:

I do. Yeah. So today's is, am I the asshole for following my late sisters wishes and kicking kicking her brother out of her funeral.

Speaker

No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think you need to hear more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Dan, I I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm I'm really convinced.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Because it was her wishes. You automatically, this is the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right thing to do. No, you're right. I should list. All right, all right. We'll hear some more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should probably hear. Come on. All right. Again upon mention. Doctor Kessler. Going rogue. Let's listen to this. Let's listen to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Michael, would you, Michael, would you present us with the facts as stated by OP, the original poster.

Host: Michael:

Yes, this is what I got for you. My sister passed away after a long. Illness and she left very clear instructions about her funeral. Our brother John was not to attend or receive any of her ashes. She left me as the executor of her estate. My sister wasn't great to John growing up, and he wasn't much better. They fought constantly as an adult, she went to therapy, recognized the harm she had done, and tried to make things right. She apologized multiple times, reaching out to him, but John shut her down each time, making it clear he didn't want a relationship with her when she got sick. My sister made one last attempt to reconnect, asking John to visit her. He declined again, telling her he wasn't interested. Even as she was on her deathbed, she was hurt. She made it crystal clear that she didn't want to see him if he didn't want to see him in her life, then she didn't want him around in death. To her, it was simple. If you couldn't show up alive, he had no place at her funeral. When she passed, I sent John a notice that she had passed, but informed him of her wishes. Since he wasn't at the reading of her. Despite this, John showed up uninvited. I think our uncle gave him the date and time in line with my sister's wishes. I asked him to leave. He got angry, caused to seen, and accused me of being cruel and denying him a chance to reconcile and say goodbye. Some family members criticized me afterwards, saying I should have let him get closure and the funerals are. The living I pointed out. It was her final wish and I'm still refusing to give him anything of hers. Am I the asshole here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm jumping in First off with how sad it is when when families are when someone in a family is unwilling to run. There are certain situations with that are irreconcilable. Obviously I'm not talking about a situation where you know, trauma has been no one should be forced to reconcile. This sounds like one of those situations where they were. Unpleasant to each other, but not abusive maybe, and given the chance to reconcile. That's unfortunate that it happened. The way it did it I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I completely agree. And I'm really struggling to understand John's. Live here and wanting to do this visit after the death but refusing the end of this woman's life was very clearly in front of them. I sort of understand like, oh shit, I missed this one opportunity and I didn't know it was a sudden heart attack.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or something and you lose that person unexpectedly before you have the chance to reconcile. But he knew this was going to happen. And so I found myself very curious about John's intention and. Motive to show up? Well, like I don't get it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. If he wants, I mean what he's saying is he wants, you know, he wants some closure. He wants the opportunity to reconcile in his head and come to the come to grips and all this. And if he was never given that opportunity, maybe I could see this. Say she suddenly like she got hit by a bus and. It gets rushed to the hospital and on her deathbed says I never want to see John at the funeral. But here she's she's really she's asked for the reconciliation and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And right and that offer was put before him during her lack of a better word, period of illness. I I. But he did multiple opportunities. It sounds like in his mind. And this is where I just I don't understand I think where we sometimes get it wrong is we.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. He had the opportunity. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Think that our ability to gain closure rests with an event. Or an opportunity afforded to us by someone else. I think closure is really a deeply personal opportunity that we take and it can't be dependent on the actions or an event controlled by another because you put all of the control on them and then your ability to get closure is completely out of your control. And this just sucks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Block more so John here would. Have been advised had he been in my office looking for? Your advice to find ways to gain closure around this relationship that was separate from the funeral.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I I'm. I'm. I'm really puzzled by, you know, anyone who refuses the overtures of connection throughout her life to suddenly want to do it at her death, that that seems a little bit like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Nothing is it and not for the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, that doesn't. I don't, I don't. I don't understand that. I mean, if he was, if through her life I've been, I'm imagining the situation where he's like, you know what? She was awful to me and no amount of apology. Cuz here's the thing. If she asks for reconciliation and he refuses it, that's just right. It makes me sad. If a family can be reconciled. If someone can recognize like, it sounds like she really realized that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I was terrible to him and I was terrible sister and I'd like to make amends for. That he doesn't have to accept that he's under no obligation whatsoever, except that it's sad to me when people aren't able to get that, but sometimes things are bad enough that you're not, and if things are so bad that he can't, I respect that. That's a boundary. Yeah, I don't get shown up. At the funeral that that bad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I mean I think worried that he wants an opportunity to kind of get up in a public way and just shit all over her memory, which is really, quite frankly, going to ruin it for other people there. Yeah. And I'm not going to put he's going to do, but I I really cannot fathom a. That is benevolent and healing again. Wrong. Maybe we have comments and updates and whatever, but like I I really struggle to understand perspective and need and want here because we did turn on those opportunities right now. Oh, sorry. Go on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. No, no, I I could see a situation where he like, sometimes the actual reality of a thing is different than you think it's going to be. But at that point, I think it's he's he's unfortunately in a situation where he's gotta say, I didn't realize that I really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, sure. I think it's yours for staff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We did want to get something here and I should have, but it's too late now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah. And now we also the the minor characters, right, the the family, who is so upset with the living sister following through on the deceased last wishes. And I think there's this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't think we can do that. You did it again. Do we know OP? 'S gender here.

Host: Michael:

Yes, I'm sorry. And his sister.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sister. Ohh, I'm sorry.

Speaker

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't. I don't know. You talking about? No, but there's just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I thought.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The truth and the brother.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I I I apologize. I thought that I I thought that we didn't. I thought we didn't get OP's gender here. I I I deeply apologize for being for the for the criticism.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's OK. No, you gotta get it right. No. I I really appreciate staying on points. You know, we often ask like we want to get this right because we don't want to incorrectly assume things. So, you know, a better question and get it right and then be wrong. But no, in this case I was, I was pretty certain what I heard was it was a sister who was the executor of the will of a of a deceased sister and then this. Mother. And so we've got this living sister who has been asked to do something really difficult, which is keep a sibling away from a family event. And the family members are reacting very strongly against this because they think we do have a tendency to not want to sit and watch somebody else's pain and we tend to move toward mitigating that pain versus doing the harder thing. And so this family jumps on on this, on the executor sister. And wants to just make everything fine and let John in and I don't I. Don't think that. That is being respectful of of the decisions wishes. I I really do struggle that this family railed up against.

Speaker

Sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I am. I am distressed that the families choice here. I'm. I can't imagine that this whole story is new to the fan. Half everyone knows that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think they may have been surprised at the vehemence with with which did the student felt about this relationship that she just said I'm done and that might have surprised them. And so they were. I'm prepared to deal with, Oh my gosh, he's here and now.

Host: Michael:

What can I let me add one thing really quick that OP added some clarification because the number of people online asked like what was their beef? Essentially, you know, like what? What was the the bad blood between them because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Leave.

Host: Michael:

They did wonder about the possibility of abuse of some kind, and so the Opie said. It was mostly because they're constantly pitted against each other, which wasn't always their fault. They did the same sport and essentially had similar strengths. She also won more often, so that didn't help that dynamic, which made him feel invisible. It was the more you do, the more the parent loved you. Kind of deal. The winner got rewards and. Pension and in short, he blames her for his crappy childhood. Our mother wasn't great. She's already passed away, but she often manipulated the situation one against the other.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So what a horrible situation. So. So thank you for for that because because I think that sometimes we get tagged up or we get caught up in like if there was abuse here, if he had been abusive to him and he was choosing not to connect with not to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Meaning that he's choosing to not reconnect for other reasons. That's his decision. But I certainly would be even more sympathetic. It sounds like the IT sounds like the parents were really emotionally harmful to these two. These two people as young, that anger got carried into adulthood.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. I mean, it's unfortunate the the, the son seems like he was really kind of in a setup. And it's hard sometimes to push against our parents, even if we know that the process is toxic because we so often need that relationship. And so that's where the pitting can really happen, where you then have to choose between a sibling relationship or a parent. Relationship. What a shitty choice. And so you choose parents because when you're young, especially if you're the youngest child, you really need those parents just for developmental and, you know, support just kind of basic things throughout life. And then, you know, we get down a road of complex and we forget where it started and how it got going and really how to move past it. It's become habit in knee jerk and nobody knows why anymore and. This this is such a this. Is such a lost? Opportunity for this family, and I know we say that a lot and it really sounds like John, maybe even just really recognized at that, that the reality of his sister being gone. On. What a lost. Opportunity it was, but unfortunately sometimes those opportunities are just gone and we need to be respectful at that. Point. That's unfortunate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, it it is unfortunate. It sounds like it sounds like the the the sister here, the the sister really played into this as a child and recognized later in life how she had been manipulated and how she had been. She had done harm as a child and really wanted to make amends like I. Complement her in her recognition that she'd done harm. This is a it's it's sometimes like when people are in therapy and we're talking about the harm done to them. That's that's hard. Sometimes it's even harder when people are coming to therapy and they're talking about the harm that they've done. Like that's that's incredibly powerful. Do work on. This is what I've done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, sometimes they they're able to make amend directly. Sometimes they're able to indirectly make changes and make amends some way that's not directly them. Mm-hmm. It sounds like the sister really wanted to make positive amends as best she could. And you can't unring a bell, but you can acknowledge damage.

Host: Michael:

Well, let me let me ask one of the questions that's really at the crux of a lot of. The discussion online with. Which is what matters most. The sisters dying wish or the living people who are left with the sorrow and sadness and needing to overcome that or heal in some way like that that ends up being kind of at the crux of this question is how do you choose which side? Values.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, it's a question of funerals are for the living. And if they're truly for the living, then why can't? Come. You know, it's not like the sister's going to know. And yet we very much go out of our way to honor individuals last wishes because they have entrusted us to put a capstone on their life in some way. A very specific way in those, you know, they they die hoping knowing that that person will do that for them. I I think that's that's a really hard ask which is more important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, we we have this tradition around trying to trying to follow through with the final wishes. Some diet and I think it's a reasonable tradition. I don't want to abandon that tradition officially. Not like like, like, one day I might want to say, hey, could you please do this? And I don't want to think all this shit's not going to follow through. What I want to do, you know, and I kinda. I kinda want to like I don't want to abandon this tradition and.

Speaker

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I get it. I totally agree. That funerals are are for the living. Absolutely true, 100% true. So I don't think this is an either or. I think the funerals are for the living and where you can you want to.

Speaker

Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You want to honor the final wishes of the deceased, and sadly in this case that that those two things were.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. In conflict, yeah, I I found myself thinking about is the world in which you say, you know, John really appreciate how you, how you have really taken this in and how maybe even your perspective. Has shifted because of this loss, it's really important to our sister that you not be at the actual event. What we can do is set aside some time for closure. Right after the actual event where if you wish to come in and Payless respects, you may do that. She says that you're not at the funeral, but she can't. We can't stop anyone from paying less respects in the sense of like should show up at a burial site or even just have a thoughtful moments and reflection or prayer for it. Like we can't, we don't have. Control over that. So if we just. Offer a path toward that if that's truly what he wanted, then yeah, maybe that, but not at the funeral.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Exactly. You could have gone to the Funeral Home and visited. He could have, as you said, visited her grave site afterwards and had a conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think that's hard because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Wireless.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's alone in that grief then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, but that's I I don't. I don't have a problem with him being alone in the grief. I feel like. I mean, I hate to sound cold about it. Sounds like he chose his lonely. And I'm sad for that. Really sad for that because there isn't. The problem is this is one of those where there isn't a right answer. Like there's no situation where, where, where we get to undo the damage done by the parents.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Maybe that's the first thing like.

Host: Michael:

Right, right. OK, great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or by the by the kids to each other as children. There's no situation we get to honor both the last wishes of the deceased and the desire for closure from Brother. Like this is a sorry. This is a real downer. Of an episode. This is non, but I have to say like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Jane.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't see it. I don't see it. I don't see a good solution here. I see a lot of different levels of shitty solutions.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I do think the best. Solution is the this one where he has some private time and if that's not satisfactory, again I would if you were my client we would be exploring why that wasn't and really what his motives and hopes were. But yeah, no, I I agree that that ideally that family would have supported the executor to to enforce this idea that. He not be. And she offered olive branches at different times, or even an opportunity to build a relationship and discuss. And he he declined. And if she doesn't want him there, I think that's that's totally fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I also feel I feel for her being the being stuck in the middle here, so we've we've been talking lately about minor character getting back to the family, like putting putting this the the the executor sister in the middle here have a shit thing to do. First name the executor because the deceased entrusted her with making decisions on her behalf and on behalf of the funeral.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh God, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Host: Michael:

Sir.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She's the one who gets to make those decisions, whether you like it or not. Executor is not a committee. It's a. It's a role someone gets and they get certain decisions made within the rule of law and she made that she made the decision as she was entrusted to do. You may not.

Speaker

Do you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it but like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right. And none of the family gets that. This isn't like you said, it isn't the committee. She's made a decision. Now we just. Our job is to support her in that decision.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And similarly, if she'd made the decision to allow John there and or family members who thought like, no, you should not do that, you should. You should not be allowed again. She's the executor and she is the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She made the decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

On who is empowered to make that decision? I I'm sick with her decision.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And a little.

Speaker

Bit of an.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Aside, I feel really compelled to just say it is one of the kindest things that you can do to map out these decisions and communicate these with a loved 1 so they know how to make these decisions. What a shitty thing to have been left. Without but a big question mark and his sister's like, oh, I don't know. I have such a like, it was a bit, although hard it was. It was a kindness that her sister did to say I'm very clear. I don't want John here. If it had been most of the question mark, I think that would have been even assholes for the sister. So having these conversations are really important. And making sure that you have them with the person who's most likely going to fulfill this. Role.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And quick public service announcement here. If you have a will to write detail the fuck out of that thing like, you can always like, they can always say, you know what? I don't want this painting. I want that one. Are you willing to trade with me? If you got multiple?

Speaker

MM. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kids. But for, but don't like, don't let them be like split and shut up on. Their own they they.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, right, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

They will always get it wrong. They will always. The number of times I've seen people get mad at each other because this person got fat and I'm entitled to this and you're entitled to that. And I did this more and started like like, like like literally like I. Up to this one older person, I only remember. I honestly don't remember was in my office or in personal life, though no Phi here would like put stickers on the back of everything in their house.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh I wouldn't answer that did that. We came along with posted notes and like I want that lamp pull and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And everything. So there was no argument and afterwards, if the kids say, you know what, I never.

Speaker

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't like this. Would you be willing to trade with me? They can do that, right? But like everything has a post it note. And there's no argument about who is entitled to what. I just like, boom, love.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That no look. I think that's great. And I think that we really underestimate how complicated death is. You know each other in this world. And I tell you. Comparatively, I think it's relatively easy leaving this world and tidying up your life. I mean relative to dead. Because there's healthcare directives and powers of attorney and well, and your shit and your assets and your liabilities and all of this stuff. And it's not even like I was talking to a family member because we've had a number of aging senior family members and just talking about how complex it was. Even when you think you have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All of the right documents in place. There's something that can happen that people are like we don't. Know just we. Don't have it written down and these loopholes are only found when we're faced with them.

Host: Michael:

And.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And it's hard. It's hard to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And you see, you see so many and people, the other piece here is that emotions.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Make decisions for someone else.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Running high. Do you get this? Emotions running high and then and then there's and then there's often this. Well, well, had the doctors tried this? Well, have they tried that? Well, you didn't. And I see this family. I I've seen families in conflict over over dying relatives like this person wants the. Can we try this one more thing. And why are you giving up and then?

Speaker

Feel.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Well, why are you people and people get into all sorts of conflicts around stuff around death and dying even before we get around trying to figure out the frigging like, like wills and stuff. But like I I know I love your like post it note ants. Like, great, what a terrific idea. Never. Never. Like leave that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, yeah. That's great.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Vague and uncertain because there there are going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To become. Then you have three people who want the same ice chest, and it's going to be a competition to who gets. It out the back door first, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And these things happen and they're awful. And I've seen situations or family members stop talking to each other because they were fighting over. Who got, you know, whatever. And it's. Like ohh God no, but here's the situation where you know if and Gertrude writes on the back of every painting, who gets what we're honoring her wishes and she's not using those paintings and her anymore. Those paintings are for the living, so we could argue for those who are arguing funerals are for the living. So are those. You know, we do have to honor her wishes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All we honor. Her wishes. Because this choice we do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So we're back to the topic. At hand, which is yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Tell tell you that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right now I thought honoring the right right there, right there, honoring the level of the wishes or honoring the decedents wishes to to decide who may not be in attendance to your funeral. And I think that she is within her rights. I think the executor of the estate did the best she could. It's a shitty situation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Situation. It should be that she's in, especially on this day. I'm really sorry. Not an asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No. No. So. Oh, he's not an asshole. I think Johnson asshole for showing up when he's not wanted. I get that he's grieving. I get that. He's in pain when you're specifically asked to not show. To someplace whether right or wrong, just not to show up. Someplace, I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are you moved me a little? I think I think I moved to asshole. Yeah. The family are being assholes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. The the family are being apples for, for fighting, for getting all up in arms about this. John's being an asshole for like if it wasn't communicated with him, I could totally see a situation like it was never communicated with it to him. He wanted to get this last closure. He showed up at the funeral. He was told not to and gets really upset. I can. I'll actually.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not clear. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And give him. That ohh. For sure, he's not an absolute. He may have been shortsighted. He may have been mildly dickish, but he's not an asshole. He was specifically told our sister didn't want you there, right or wrong, ask me not to let you there. I'm going to let you know I do. Not want there. Yeah. Hold that painful. It's awful. I feel for him. I really do.

Speaker

I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh speaking, that of characters who. That uncle was that gave the funeral information away. Like, come on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, that was kind of a dick move too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That was such a dick move. That's more of a mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah, he's a. dick, yeah. Thank you for bringing. Him very minor character, but let's not leave anyone out. Let's not leave anyone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Very minor critical.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, Michael, what did the Internet have to say with the comments that would move us on any on any of this or or?

Host: Michael:

Are we in agreement here? No, I I think you guys really hit on the most, the most of the things. I mean, they really got caught on the whole. Who's the funeral for kind of thing and I'll say probably 2/3 were strongly. You're not the asshole. You did exactly what it was. Most of you did a great job. It's a hard place to be in. It sucks, but you, you know, it's important. That when you leave this world that your wishes, your final wishes are followed and you know whether that's in a state and how it gets divvied up, or what what occurs at your wedding or what occurs at your funeral, or who is invited or not. If you have specifically said, you know, you're counting on somebody to do that in your stead. Just like. Any other kind of thing, if you were, you know, on life support and you had wishes regarding how that is handled, you would want to be treated the same way and. And so they made. That argument, one of. My very favorite examples in there is Ernest Hemingway and his polydactyl cats. So when he died.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know you're going to somehow bring this together and I'm just super impressed that I that I know you're going to bring this Ernest Hemingway, and it's probably that to cats back to this. And I just want to ahead of time compliment you on your ability to bring these things together. So go ahead, Michael. Free.

Host: Michael:

So Ernest Hemingway lived in Key West. He had a number of houses, but one of his favorites was in Key West. And when he was down there, he had polydactyl cats. They just have extra toes. So they have 6-7 toes, whatever they look like. They're wearing mittens all the time because their paws are so big. And he loved them. And so when? He died, he. Left that house to his cats and he left a trust to provide for them in perpetuity. See, so much so that those cats. Now I believe there's like 60 or 80 of them and Key West kind of hates them, but it is his final wishes. Like, no, these cats were important to me. I want them taken care of. And so there you go. You can go check out the polydactyl cats. PETA had to go and investigate because they're concerned about the welfare of the cats. And what they found were a bunch of chill cats, very happy and loving life. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Amazing. Thank you Peter, for checking on them and I am glad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It's wonderful. I just. I'm. I like it. So I must assume then that, like, part of this trust is like they have like like people going and like change litter boxes and shit like that and feed them and make sure they're like well cared for. That's that's amazing. There will come a time when there will be far too many cats for the space, but OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That. They are living, living the best life.

Speaker

Sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like does he is spaying and neutering OK like now what are the rules? Well, let's not go too far down this rabbit hole, but I. Will look this up later. Indeed, yeah. Are there any other insights that the Internet had here? There are some people obviously thought she was, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, a lot of them questioned what the original posters relationship was like with John and if she was more on the sisters side than John's. And so this was like one final thing. And then the the ones that were kind of the outliers were saying everybody sucks here. Like your sister tried, but ultimately kind of got one final dig in. Whether it was intentional or not to cut John out of an opportunity, and John was definitely an asshole for showing up, and you're the least asshole person here. But the way you've written this, it's very lopsided and one sided and. Effective. And so they think that like it'd be interesting to hear John's perspective and then the rest of the family and the uncle, they can all suck it. So it's essentially.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, it's interesting we didn't. We didn't we we've been going out of our way to try to make sure to get to all the minor characters here, but we never rendered judgment on the deceit. That's an interesting point that was raised here. Should she have?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Why have we taken her in a little bit more of a glowing light? Because of her olive branch opportunities. And so there there's a lens here where she takes the final dig and goes fuck you and watch that song out and gets the last word.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, but in the end. But in the end. Yeah, you know what, Michael? That has moved me a little bit in the end. If you really wanted to extend that olive branch over and over and over again, and she really recognized the harm done in the end, would it have been a kinder thing to have not made that rule in the 1st place? I don't know. By the way, I'm not judging her for this. I'm not willing to call her an asshole or even even disparage her in any way. But it's an interesting question that I think I'm going to. End up like. Marinating on for a little. While. Here whether she should have just shut up and not said anything and allowed him to choose as he saw fit.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I imagine this was definitely a a decision made out of hurt. I tried, I tried, I tried. Fine. I'm done. I'm really done. But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure. But I I moved a. Little bit on that to maybe not. Like, give her sainthood on this but and I think I think that may have been a flaw, but I'm not willing to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Call it an asshole, or anything close to that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, no, I agree anyway.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Thank you both for another riveting debate and eclipse into the Internet forums and life or death decisions, I guess.

Speaker

Right.

Host: Michael:

Remember, moralities up in shades of Gray and not just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Black or white, and keep in mind. That life is. A terminal condition that it actually transmitted. Thank you, Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We have we have a. Michael, we have a bonus conversation, but you're supposed to. Say stuff first, right?

Host: Michael:

Yeah, sure. So like, please follow and share her test using your family and. Friends and as always, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation is that see you. On the flip side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. MacBride MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

And now here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK. Dan, we've talked a little bit about wrapping up this is this, is it, this is the end you have made it to the end of season 1. I know this is really and it will try something out and I'm really curious that the listeners hear it. They like it and they want more great Dan, if you have no idea what.

Host: Michael:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks for speaking with us listeners.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Coming so if you like it and it works well, we're going to keep it. If if it's a total flop, forgive me and we'll ditch it. Yeah, here we go. I have 5 rapid fire questions that are this or that questions. They have to pick one. And if you're compelled to give an explanation, keep it tight. Cause I got five. I know. Keep it tight. Ready.

Host: Michael:

It's me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You ready for your this? Or that? Yeah. OK. Sweet or Savory Lake or ocean? No. You gotta take it to this or that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Avery. Yes. No. Yes, the answer. Well, I I want to say ocean, but I live in Minnesota.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, no. Choose one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I have to say Lake, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You don't, OK?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

asshole ocean. Go ocean go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Alright, plane or car? OK, romcom or docudrama.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Plane. No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No. Again, it's just that you have. To pick one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

A begrudging ROM com.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of begrudging romcom, say more. No. Oh, my God. All right, last one. Rain or snow? All right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I no, I don't think. No, keep going. No cold rain, cold rain as we are having right now here in Minnesota. Cold rain is the worst weather there is and warm rain is warm. Rain is fine, but the colder no.

Host: Michael:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, it's just chilled.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You to the bone, right? No, no, no. Alright. Alright, well, that's how this or that. Thank you for our bonus compensation.

Host: Michael:

Rap.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thanks so much for listening to this. Our last episode of Season 1. We're taking a break. We're we're we're out for two weeks. We'll be playing some of our our Michael. We'll be playing some of our deep tracks from previous from the previous season before we start our new season and we're we're hoping to hear from you MacBride. We have some things planned for the next season.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We do. I'm really excited before I tell you about that, I just want to say and hearty congratulations on, I don't know, 40 plus episodes and. In one this is a little bust season, very excited to have done this with you and I thank you for all the time that you spent with me. Just talk about, you know, clinical content here or the content that comes up in our clinical. Conversations is probably about. There you go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In season 2, we're hoping to find some willing participants to have. To add to this clinical conversation, different voices, different specialty. These we're trying to curate some folks who will bring us something humor and maybe aren't a little afraid of some curse language. So we want to keep it light. We want to keep it entertaining, but we're hand selecting some guests for you. If there are topics and things that you're looking forward to or something that you think we've gotten incorrect, point us to the episode. We'd love to kind of go back and rehash and get it right. So that's that's coming in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Love, love, love. Love our mail bag questions, love our mailbag criticisms, and we'll see you, and we'll see you in the new year.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo psychologist.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

HI'm doctor Gayle MacBride. Good morning Dan. I'm so glad you're here with me this. Good morning. This is Dan Kessler. He is a clinical psychologist and my business partner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Welcome. Hi. Hi. Today, we're going to. We're going to go back to exploring the Internet and trying to figure out who's the asshole. I, I love these opportunities to kind of use these questions as a jumping off point for talking about some of the really fascinating and important. Issues and relationships, Michael, thank you so much for bringing us another, yet another opportunity to really explore psychological stuff through the lens of these questions. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You often call them conundrum. They're common.

Host: Michael:

From. Yeah, well, thanks both of you. Welcome. Good morning. As you as always on these Sundays, I enjoy this as well. I know you guys talk about how much time or how much you enjoy the chat. I thoroughly enjoy it. It's always fun to hear what you guys come up with. So for any of the newbies out there, if you don't know what am I the asshole is and short someone on the Internet has posted.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Amen could lighten this way.

Host: Michael:

Scenario and asked readers who's the asshole here and that's what doctors MacBride and Kessler are hoping to help us determine if there's any identifiable information in the post. I've changed that and made a little more discrete. And if you're new, you should also know to stick around through the credits. We always have a bonus. Conversation. I can see their gears turning right now trying to figure out what. They might ask.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

One another. Yeah, that's usually a surprise too. We don't. We try not to plan this out too much. We just want you to have a little bit of a window into how we have these conversations. We want them to be natural and organic and frankly, just want them to be.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. Well, neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this. I'm Speaking of being spontaneous and organic, so let's go. Today's prompt is amazing, asshole for kicking my parent out of my house and saying This is why I was so fucked up as a kid.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Gauntlet thrown.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know what? I, I want to immediately say no. But like, we probably should hear the fact.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, I like this. Here's some controversy. I must say. Yes, there is nothing good that can come of throwing an accusation bomb and then walking out.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I you know, I think there are time. I, I, I think there times when someone recognizes that like, you know what, I've tried to maintain a relationship with a toxic with toxic family of words or toxic parents long enough. And I'm just not willing to do it anymore. You're right. I think it's being vindictive is generally speaking not good. But there's a part of me is like.

Speaker

What's good?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So part of all of this is like ohh

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Yeah. So I you know, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But it doesn't pitch you anywhere in the. Long run, but hear the detail.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to. I'm going to agree with you in general, being vindictive doesn't get you anywhere in the long run. I'm. I'm. I'm really interested in hearing the fact pattern here with the with the awareness that we're hearing one side, we're hearing the side of the person who thinks their parents are assholes and may or may not be realistic or rational about it. So I'm already moving on my position. Which I came up without actually hearing the facts. Michael, would you share with us the actual facts of this story?

Host: Michael:

Sure. So this is what you got over the weekend. I have my parents over for dinner and my 10 year old daughter wanted to play a song she'd been practicing on her keyboard. She was excited to show us, and while it wasn't perfect, I thought she did a great job. As soon as she finished, I started clapping about my parents. They started laughing. Not a little chuckle, but full on belly laughing. My mom asked if it was her first time playing and my dad actually said a dog could have played it better. I watched my daughter's face fall and she said quietly that she had had two lessons and that playing with both hands was hard. They just laughed harder. I saw red. I stood up, took their cups, told them to get the hell out of my house, my mother. Told me that. They hadn't finished their drinks yet and that they wanted to hear another sign. I wasn't having it. I told them to get their stuff and get the fuck out. My dad huffed and my mom had the nerve to say I was being too sensitive and that I can't protect her from the real world. I shot back that this wasn't preparing her, it was just them being bullies. The same reason I was so messed up growing up. They finally laughed and I sat down with my daughter and told her how proud I was and asked her to play it again. She did and then. I made sure she knew that. Really great. After they left, I told my parent. I texted my parents and said we're taking a break until they can act like decent people. My dad replied. They hadn't. He didn't raise me to be so precious. Then my sister called doing her usual brown nosing routine, telling me I was out of line and cuddling my kid. I told her to fuck herself and hung up. Who's the asshole here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. So OK. So we're just going to roll back a few minutes.

Speaker

But. Well, because my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Was I right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Back pattern was that he stormed out and saying horrible things about our childhood. But if if the conversation went.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

One. Unpause. Ohh, Michael. Michael. Do we have the gender on OP here? If we don't decide, it's fine.

Host: Michael:

Father, father, it doesn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Ohh this is dad. Ohh. OK OK. I need a I made a gender assumption.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is dad. Huh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you for checking in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You did and I jumped in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I did good because you didn't hear it the same way. OK. OK, so this this parent, this father I had imagined had delivered this information in kind of a different way. The the headline felt it's kind of clickbaity in the sense of like. He said, you know, you fucked me up with a kid and and I'm outta. Here, the fax is delivered, suggest a bit more rational of rolling out of of conversation and we are limited because OP it doesn't have anyone else to collaborate. How this went down and yet I can totally see this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And the writer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As something that would happen, and in that case, I love that dad stood up for his daughter, daughter, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, daughter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And and her effort and wow. And that sister toxic. If you weren't there, you're not part of this conversation. I agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Now I now I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth and say, yeah, I know big shocker but and say that we are hearing this through his lens and I am frequently that that that lens has all sorts of things to it that make it not accurate. Yeah. And however, as described wow, I mean, you know, kids. And I'm not saying that we should be like, always telling kids that they're amazing and wonderful when they're clearly not. But when a 10 year old is doing something that's really special for a 10 year old and yeah, they're going to make mistakes and they could do this like, you celebrate the effort that they put into it and you recognize that a 10 year old. The 10 year old and you don't have expectations of them to do like brilliant music. They're 10 years. You know? Yeah, those of us who have ever who have had children in band, and I'm going on like a world band like those early band concerts, they're awful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right with two lessons.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't know if I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm an objective. Oh, and object objective, musicality standpoint. They're love to listen.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

To they. They are. No, they are. They are, they are. And if any of my kids are, if any of my kids are listening, I loved your band concerts, those 6th grade band concerts were special. Yeah, they were special. No. And they are they. But and and and as parents said you sit. You sit through them and they but you. But you love that your kids are putting the effort into it and you and you see that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

These kids up on stage playing, playing instrument.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You know, you see the progression over the years from the 6th grade band concerts, where your your ears are like bleed. Thing and they're painful. But the kids really putting it all into it. And then you get to see these, like advanced band concerts, when they when they're like graduating high school. And then the music is beautiful. And like, they get, they get there from those early concerts and through the encouragement. And this is a child who, without that encouragement, Grandma and Grandpa are never going to get to hear that later. Answer it's sad. It saddens me to hear this this response. Really does. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Although I mean, it doesn't sound like it's a new pattern and that is that is problematic and I think we do a better job now as parents understanding. Like you said, we're celebrating effort. And not necessarily outcome in these parents. We're going to put them in a certain cohort, have been taught to celebrate outcome and not effort. Right. And so I think we see a shifting in parenting and understanding how you encourage kids without coddling them or telling them they're always right. But you do celebrate that. Like Wow, honey 2 lessons in and you're playing with. Hand that that sounds really hard. That enough and alone. That recognition of that effort would make that 10 year old beam and skip up the stairs toward bedtime like it's not that hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And and you know, we've certainly seen this in traditions where a kid has promise in some area and a negative parent and negative coach, someone who isn't, who isn't supportive and caring and not in the Pollyannaish way, but in the recognition of the work and the recognition of the challenge is. In a really but in a positive way. I mean what a?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Missed opportunity for these.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Missed opportunity for these parents with these grandparents. Rather it it it it it, it really is. No, I no, I mean I'm. I'm as you mentioned early on I'm not necessarily a fan of going off on people and telling you my life get it on my at the same time like as a dad like you go after my kid and make my kid.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Feel like shit when they try hard, like you're going to get it. You're you. You very well might get. This reaction before you get the hard. Yeah. No, no, no. Like, like, like I can, I can say, as the psychologist here. Well, there, you know, there may have been a better way to have phrased that, to teach your parents. And there may have been a better way of setting the boundaries as a. That I'd be like you. Yeah, I'm going to like.

Host: Michael:

Sorry. Yeah, I think, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This is the this is. A challenge and I and remember back and I don't you probably haven't read the book, but I one of the books that I actually just adore and love for me it was life and perspective changing like and I'm really not overstating. And and really I'm not. It was one of those books I read and and things just fell into places as Brene Brown's rising strong. Like if.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I didn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Copy of it in the office. It’s broken and battered and and and fall open in places. It's got highlighting and underlining and and sticking out that like this is a book that is so meaty and has so much in it. And there's a there's. A. Story that I'm going to maybe paraphrase and and. I can link the chapter in the show notes or something because it’s really good and she's talking about feeling called out and embarrassed in a in a particular situation. And the way this particular other person calls her out, she then rises to to respond. And I remember reading her response. It's the story of Pamela, if anyone. If anyone's read the book, but again, I'll, I'll we'll link it in the show notes. She writes this beautiful e-mail. Living Pamela an absolute new one and it is. It is a thoughtful, vengeful smack down in this beautiful way. I mean this, this woman just exudes strength. And. And and just it's. It's a wonderfully written e-mail and but she has the wisdom to to pause before she sends it. I think she shares it with her therapist, who makes a makes a lovely appearance here and there in the book. Her name is Sanna and sits down and shares it. And therapists disagree and just takes the wind out of Renee's sails. What do you mean? And you know, and she?

Speaker

She.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Really. She asked. This question that that's so wonderful, which is essentially when you wrote that, how were you hoping that the reader would feel? And Renee says I wanted her to feel small, like I did. And I was like, oh, so it's a great question to keep in the back of your mind when you communicate with someone, the words you use and. How you want to say them, what is not only what is it that you want to convey, but how do you want them to feel as you say, and then choose your words accordingly. Because if your goal is to make your parents feel you know 2 inches high, is that really going to produce the results? Is that going to teach them anything, or is your goal here simply to set a boundary around your daughter? And how do you do that, and what language do you need to use to do that? I'm laying clearly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In getting getting back to the story again, as I talk out of both sides, I'm out. Throughout this podcast, if his goal is to convince his parents that they shouldn't act this way, if he failed because parents.

Speaker

You're kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Bullying them back? Really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Because parents essentially say you're being precious and wimpy, and then the calls the sister to to to badger him to and they they they it it only deepens their commitment to being dicks to kids and grandkids. So that doesn't change their behavior in any way. If anything, it heartens their hearts further. And it's doing anything.

Speaker

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Positive if his goal is to end his relationship with his parents, he's potentially going a good way towards. That yeah, yeah.

Speaker

Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That's that's the long. No, that's the long term goal to to discontinue the rate. But if your long term goal is to discontinue relationship with someone, you're still your better choice is to say I'm choosing not to be in a relationship you any longer maybe they'll become a day when I'm when I'm ready to but these are the things that I want to see before I'm willing to be. We talked about boundaries. This is a good place to say like boundaries aren't things you tell other people they have to do. Boundaries are things you're saying for yourself. So, like, I'm not saying you can't smoke, you smoke all you want, but I won't be around you if you smoke. That's my choice. You could be as negative as. You want. I won't allow you around my daughter. If you're good, you do. You but not but not in my space. You explain this better than I do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, and and and this is this is difficult. So that's OK. No, you did a good job, I think. I think it's difficult though when you set. Up, not goals.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You can't be a dick around my daughter. So how do how do we? Measure that how we know that's no longer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What would you set? What would you set?

Speaker

So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Here's the goal. Well, first of all, I would tell you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I tell my clients not goals are for dead people and people in comas. They're better at not doing things. Than we ever are. But so then and I have a weird way of thinking about this. I think about it in the sense of art. If you were an art class, can talk about positive and negative space, something that's not there versus something that's sick, right. And so I don't mean positive and negative in terms of good or bad. I just mean the presence or the absence of something. And so the absence of something and not goal is problematic. It's big old hole.

Host: Michael:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you. Know if I tell.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Don't be a dick is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You. Yeah. Don't be a dick. Then how do I know you're not being a dick? It's the absence of dickishness. But the moment that even the hint of Dickishness shows up, we're done. Right? So that hasn't it. It. It's problematic because we can't really act. On that, then, and so if we start to think about the presence of something, then what does that look like? And so, you know, we can reestablish a relationship once you and I can have some conversations about what's OK and what's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not OK to. Say to my daughter when she wants to present you something that she's proud of, or we can have a conversation. Once we engage in some family therapy and the therapist agrees that we've made some some progress on our communication like these are measurable, definable things a bit more. Way and then just don't be a dick? Like we need to heal this relationship. We need to we this needs to do some work. I need to be understood by by you. If if if OP wants a relationship.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If if Dad wants the other option. If if that. Yeah, I mean we we don't. There's a reality here. We don't have to have a relationship with our family. We can choose not to now again if we're choosing not to. I don't know that this is the best way to do it. It's not to you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, it it's definitely not the best way to do it, and I think we have ourselves, we find ourselves in a really interesting time where people are much more free than any other time to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

OK, I'm done. I'm not. I'm not going to do anymore. And then they do cut off family of origin and you, I hear in my clinical office a lot of distress around this and unfortunately, a lot of those times people come and go. I don't know what I did. I don't understand. And they won't tell me now that may be genuinely true. Maybe they lack insight. Maybe they've never been told. Maybe they've been told a million times and they disagree. But there are times where folks sit in their office and go. I don't understand why this child of mine basically has estranged themselves, and I have no power to to fix. Which I do find a little problematic. I mean, if you're going to sever that relationship, love to to make it clear to that person why that relationship has been separate rather than just. To a piece about them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm I'm of many conflicting thoughts around this cuz that there are times when I think it's appropriate to say you're harmful to me and I don't want you in my life. There are times when it's appropriate to say, feel like you've been harmful and I'm willing to have you in my life, but I want. See some changes and there are times when like you choose to keep someone in your life because our relationships aren't going to be all good and not and not to say we want to keep someone around who's abusive or harmful. But there are times when, like, we look at the balance of relationships and we see that this person's going to let us down from time to time around this issue. And we talked about this in the dangerous. Play with this in in couples relations. 100% of partners are going to at some point this week, we're going to disappoint our partner. Yeah, absolutely. There going to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Be times where I'm going to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

100% of the time, but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

100 No no of 100 of partners, yes, 100% of our partners. Hundred really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We'll, we'll we'll have disappointment existing and then just. To be clear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Disappointment exists in relationship. Yeah, no disappointment exists in relationships. There are times when we, when we, when we fall, we where, where they're going to be times when we fall short of being fully engaged or present or the best partner we can be. And the times that our partners can do the same. Same thing with parents and sometimes figuring.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I know what you're saying.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What the difference between like having been failed or having failed someone and it crossing a line into this is irreparable and the harm to me is greater than any potential benefit. It's like there's not a I mean sometimes there are some bright. Lines here of. But frequently they're they're not, and and where in this Gray area do we choose to say now I'm being harmed too much? Now I'm not harmed too much. Now the relationship is too damaging.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And and it is interesting because I often think that as adults, we're willing to tolerate some of that, and you fuck with my kids. We're done. And so, you know, oftentimes those folks who are in my office saying, I know what happened, they are grandparents, right. And so I do wonder how often something like this has happened. And the parents like, you know, it's one thing for you to hurt me and it's. A total another for you to go after my kid. Like you were. Saying earlier and you're just a peek out. I mean, I forgot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm sure I think that's exactly. I think that's exactly what happened here is that his dad's been berated by his parents so many times and he's tolerated. He's put up with it. He's dealt with it, then the parents rated his.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know, I hope Dad took an opportunity to talk about disappointment and how difficult relationships can be and how you weather that. You know, there's there's an opportunity for the daughter to learn something, albeit it's going to be a hard something. And it would have been preferable if that never happened for her. And right when these things happen.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

What do you want to do about it? Here are options here. Our choices. Just 10, it's not like she gets a choice and whether or not she continues her relationship with her grandparents. But it's also tough because she knows her grandparents and knows they exist. And now, what questions does she have? Like, this is a really delicate family situation and. What do you? Tell your kid now that we're not being ground group anymore.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And she and yeah, I mean this. This. I was thinking that same thing that this daughter like if she loves and wants to spend time with Grandma and Grandpa now to say well, you know Grandma and Grandpa are going to like hurt you by their attitude towards towards kids and by their negativity. So I'm not going to let you be around them which is also going to hurt you like that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You don't have. Fascinating perspectives on the world and and to say that she doesn't say well, right? But I know Grandma and Grandpa are this, this and this, and maybe she hasn't internalized nearly as much as the father believes. She's internalized no. Maybe it's the pattern. Over time, he's really concerned about. But like, sometimes kids are like, yeah, I know. It's just kind of fucked and I don't. I don't pay them a whole lot of mine. You know that I was doing this piano or settle because of something to do and you know, conversation was so awkward. Who knows? Like 10 knows could be pretty and playful sometimes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I am, I think with this situation where I maybe take some issue with OP is that this happened without plan for like if you're going to sever a relationship.

Speaker

M.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Out of anger in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The moment should be planful. Yeah, it should be well thought out. Like anything. Any major thing when you go off on a person that's not the place to. To do it, you have a conversation around that he has some parameters that he wants his parents. I'll be around to you and I'll bring my daughter around. But what I need from you is is to feel for her to. So yeah, for me to feel like you're supportive of her and this is what that looks like. So to put it in in in MacBride, in terms so that using the positive. Space instead of. The negative space, which you know his going off and cutting off. I don't know. That was a great, great role modeling or for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

His daughter? No, no, I mean his daughter absolutely says OK. I know my dad has my back, which is good. It certainly didn't learn how to navigate other other than to shut down Stonewall. And then let's let's pick up the the the OP's sister for a moment, please call.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, we, as you mentioned, we don't want to forget the the minor characters.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The minor character. To talk about last time, you know, letting her off the hook would be problematic here. Getting pulled in an interaction that you were not present for and does not directly impact you at your business. So she had no call getting involved in this in any way. It says a couple of things maybe about the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dynamics in this relationship and maybe because what she's afraid of, you know, afraid to piss off these parents, needs to please them. And so, you know, comes in. Probably. Then on her parents side.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We talked about within relationships and communications triangles are bad. I say this a lot if you triangles are not health stations. So now the parents are triangulating in the daughter who is a willful or the sister who is a willful participate in this triangle communication. He wasn't there, so doesn't know what happened. He doesn't get to. And I and I think that whether she's correct or incorrect, I mean, let's just for a moment assume that OP is completely off base and misinterpreted everything his parents said and was totally wrong. Still not OK for the sisters.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Step in. OK, so let's massage that for a moment. Is it OK? I want to challenge you. Just for a little bit. Is it OK? Sister says.

Host: Michael:

All right, all right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hey, bro. You had mom and dad over the other day for dinner. I heard it ended really badly, and I just want you to think about it for a moment. And I want you to know Mom and Dad are really hurt by by how you find that. But this little triangle she still. Wasn't there and?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, but, but she's not because she's not. She's she's asking him to think about it. She's not telling him what he did was wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She still pulled by mom and dad. OK, you're cool with the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm never really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Angle if it's, if it's got rounded edges.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hurt. I would. I would massage a little bit. What you're saying is like if she calls someone says hey, like hey, I'm really concerned like mom and dad really hurt by this thing that happened and and and I know that you all have had conflict and I kind of want to know like what happened like I'm hearing from them but I'm really curious as to what happened I might be OK with that because she's not. Coming back and saying you were wrong. What you said?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She's not trying to create a triangle. She's trying to create some.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. If she's curious.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then the the the relationship between the primary 2 not triangulating and creating a third.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If she is, if she is truly curious and has question and approaches it this way, maybe there's a place for it. I still the way this way it's described, you know, calling him up to sell me, telling he's wrong. Yeah, not OK. We also one of the problems with this whole scenario is we don't know the way. It went down and I'm just like, I'm going to go on a limb here. Alright. So as described, parents are assholes and he made some choices that he shouldn't have made. And the sisters that ask as as described sisters and Apple as described.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. So like, as described, asshole. This is asshole. Oh, he is sucky.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OP made some bad choices here. Yeah, he. Yeah. I mean, he did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My OK, not. My other business just a little bit asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Can do the right thing here for sure. Parents are assholes and this is just an asshole. But you know what? I don't know how, like all of these are always tinged with my interpretation of what happened. I'm only presenting one side.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And I think I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. But you know what? I'm I'm. I don't know that I want to render a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Verdict this time because there is no corroborating information that says Paul and Tom.

Speaker

There's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. There's just too. Like I. There's too much. I see this all the time with people who, you know, person a means X person B. Here's where it gets mad, because how dare you say this thing? The principle. I didn't say that. Yes, you did. No. And I think that, you know. Our interpretations are a mix of or. What happened is a mix of what happened in our interpretation of that occurrence. And while if we go with OPS interpretation, yes, mom and Dad are now that grandparents are assholes, sisters an asshole and he's not an asshole. He made some poor choices, but more than some of the other ones we've dealt with.

Speaker 2

OK.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MMM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, Oh no, I want to see the videotape. Like I want to see the instant replay of this event, and I want to see if it really was like, I don't mean to doubt him. And at the same time, like certainly their parents were like this kind of want to. I'm curious. I'm really this leaves.

Host: Michael:

Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I like the curiosity. I like where you're going with this. I agree. As as posted I would go parents and sister. Definitely asshole OP. Definitely. On the sucky side of things, mostly because of the communication and even if in my head I use that doubling rule that we sometimes are taught and I double the level of. Anger because of the amount of cursed language in there, I double it and I would I would move that. Maybe sucking this up to dickishness or ashless? Just because mildly asshole ish. Because because I suspect it didn't go down well. It was not planful and it was from a place of anger instead of productive dynamic change. So I think I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You're you're not. You're you're. You're more willing to. You're more willing to render verdict here than I am.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm. Firm. A little bit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

More we're the we're Michael. Where'd the?

Host: Michael:

Internet fall, where you had you had kind of two, but the interesting thing happened here. So like it was not the asshole your hero essentially was like that kind of like you did the thing. Everybody wishes they could do kind of thing. But the the minute that you got below the initial response. It was a much more nuanced question about like, yeah, but like. Really, that's not the way. That's not the example you want to set for your daughter and you know you should have. It's not the time and place to suffer a relationship like, you know, maybe you needed a time out and that's fine. But like, you need to come back around and have a bigger conversation, kind of so like, it was interesting. Like people will jump into like, yeah, you did the. Thing and then it was like. Well, I don't know. And so it's kind of interesting to see. That and then interesting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

How those don't get uploaded quite as much as.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But this is this is the reality of such things. Extreme responses are satisfied, and the and the the more nuanced responses are less exciting and less satisfying.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Less thrilling, so that sort of extreme things get more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, they're left carried by the algorithm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, exactly. So the course.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's sort of how we're getting our news is really the. These high impact, polarizing responses, yeah.

Host: Michael:

The the other big category was everybody sexier, which openly addressed like dude like that. That might have felt satisfying in the moment. But like, that wasn't the way to react. And you know, the the parents definitely should not have responded that way. And the sister really sucks. And then some people jokingly said and the daughter. And lessons and then said too soon.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Too, she did nothing.

Host: Michael:

I know I thought it was funny though. And and then the other kind of interesting thing that was definitely a minority in there. But some people said I'm calling assholes on this. This is what you wish you had said. But there's no way this went down this way, which I was like, whoa, that's kind of interesting to think about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we do assume 1:00, we we you know we assume. But we assume that these are actual stories that people have actually had happened. We some of this fuck undoubtedly in our 40 something episodes we've done so far, at least one of those was something that someone just wrote up never had.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Or wish this is how they would, what they would have said and how they would have said it, laying the smack down. And it's really. Yeah. No, I hear.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

That for sure, like the George Costanza jerk store thing. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, they could have very well been.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like it's a. It's it? Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to disagree with those with those responses. The, the, the, the vindictive, like angry part of me was like you go girl and then enter speaking. And then, like, the more nuanced thinking. Let me ask you know, so I actually agree with the Internet. Here I want that.

Host: Michael:

And and they all. They all did come back around. Almost every one of the threads at some point said you really need to let your daughter find her relationship with her grandparents. Like, don't let your relationship with them color her opportunity. Like if they truly are that horrendous, she'll know that and she'll cut off relations with them and stop lying to do stuff with them so and well. Thank you both for another riveting debate and to and a glimpse into the collective conscious, the Internet forums. I remember morality is often shades of Gray and not just black or white, and sometimes you can't even render a brick.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh my gosh, when this this one was really cringey from from as the kids say from from multiple perspectives. So I appreciate you bringing in something that that really challenged us this morning, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

Really. Yeah. Well, please follow and share our test views and the podcast platforms, the neighbors. Friends and maybe your family as well, so they can get an insight into some of these things. And as always, stick around through the credits for whatever our bonus conversation will be.

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for listening. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That you something, I don't know. Just ask you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I got something so on my on my bookshelf is an unfortunate. Infinitely large number of books that I've never actually. Yeah. Yeah, my favorite one. I forget the exact title, but it's something. It's about teenagers. And it's like the title is something along the line of I hate you. Get out of my life. But would you please first take Cheryl and me to the mall, which I bought in part because I understand it's a really good book. And in part because I love the title. But I've never actually read it. So it's my favorite book that I've never read. Do you have a favorite book on on your shelf that you've not actually read but you bought? Because like, this is a really cool book, I really like it when I'm actually.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Number of books I haven't read. Yet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know I got. I got parking any of many of them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Staffing. Rolling. I'm. I'm vamping a little bit. I mean, I think the one I know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can edit out the vamping Michael, you can edit out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The damping the one I'm most excited to read that has been sitting on my shelf for an embarrassing really long period of time, but I think it's going to be worth the read. Is Robin Handley to pose stress wisely, and it's all about the idea of stress isn't bad for you with how we handle stress and you know. So we've gotten the wrong medical advice, you know, get the stress out of your life. That's really. But instead, how do you create resiliency so that you can weather stress and actually then some of that can be positive for for longer term?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Health outcomes. I love that I should get that book on my. Shelf and not read. It too, no, but no. That's exactly it. Because people, when working with folks, they sometimes they're coming in with, you know, I'm depressed because of these things and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And not read it. I can just spend. Some time I can visit you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes, that's true. But often like the goal isn't to make those things in your life go away or to eliminate those things in your. Like the goal is to build up the defenses that you have, because we're not going to be able to make those things go away. But if we pull better with them and frequently and I've seen this like depression, clear anxiety can clear, marriage problems can clear even if the underlying thing that seems to have caused those problems isn't any better because they have learned how to cope with them.

Speaker 2

Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So I love that I love that book.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right. It's right. No, that's great. It’s about creating resilience and how do you teach resilience? And that really is kind of doctor handling.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And I've not read it either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And how how do we create this resilience? And she's got this five factor model that that's really wonderful. And she's actually an entertaining speaker. So if you get to the chat chance to watch a YouTube clip of her, I really highly recommend it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I remember. On the yeah, on the topic of resilience, I remember reading many years ago about resilience and what a child needs, what a person needs to develop resilience when they're not in a really challenging or awful situation and what at least this research that's now 25 years old and based on my recollection of what I read 25 years.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

MHM.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ago was you need one person. You need one person in your life who's there for you? Yeah. Uncle and grandmother. A friend of a. You know, a best friend's parent. Whenever there's someone in your life who's there and present and caring, it can create that reverse. Not 100% of the time, but that seemed to be the factor. That was potent in creating resilience and people are. Difficult to tell. I would.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Say, handle it for would argue there's more, but check out the. Website See what she does.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That nice plug for her. We we no kick back here? Yeah, she didn't. She didn't even know The thing is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. Well, again, I appreciate everyone and their listenership and support. This is just a gentle reminder that we are going to take a couple of weeks off here coming up soon. And while we appreciate your listenership for our season 1, we're cooking up some fun stuff for season 2. Stay tuned, but not before Dan and I get a little time. Out of the office, Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. No, we're, we're, we're essentially shutting down. We will, we will still be around if people make. Referrals will still be around to respond to referral requests and things like that. We're taking off 2 weeks for to spend time on our own ourselves and our families, and we'll be back fresh to work with folks in the New year and we'll be back fresh to begin our pot to reinvigorate the podcast in the New Year. So we encourage you to do the same if you're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the game plan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

If you're able to do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. And in the meantime, we're going to drop some episodes at you, our lovely podcast host, who loves all things data are is going to find out episodes that you haven't listened to. Maybe. Maybe you missed, and we're going to bring those to you in the break. Feel free to write us through that mail bag on the on the web page so that we can have some fresh comments. Let us know what we missed in the episodes or if there's content or a topic that you want us to dive into. There's a lot of stuff on this thread, sometimes having a little bit of a direction to aim is really helpful. Let's make season 2. About what? You know, maybe interests are listening public.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And as we look back to season 1 in some of these, as Michael said earlier, or we'll say later, least loved like think of these as the deep cuts, the album, the album Gems that didn't become super popular, but were great songs and for whatever reason didn't like become the hit. But there are some of those deep tracks that are really great. So we're going to share with you again. Deep tracks that are the rethink are great, even if they didn't get the same listenership so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's right. Sorry, I tell myself. Is, you know you jumped down the band when they were starting to get popular, but you missed the early stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This early stuff, so we're going to show you. The early stuff all.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right, so we've got one. More fresh episode going to be coming your way before we take a break and send you some reruns.

Kelley Buttrick:

We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners. 

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The chances of me remembering are low regardless.

Host: Michael:

Fair enough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I mean, when we listen to our podcast that I did, I don't remember half. Of what I said, you know, sometimes I'm really surprised it's. Kind of funny, like that's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That sounds pretty smart.

Host: Michael:

Right this guy's very insightful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

He’s fucking brilliant.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should hire him right and some of them like, oh, I hope we get to this topic within this because I don't remember if I talked about it. Ohh good. Good. Or damn, there's a missed opportunity.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, that would actually be kind of a fun thing to like. Revisit like, OK, you know, this is like, for instance, if you were to have tackle, if we we if we took your most popular one and then we're like OK, now that this has been out there for a year. Yeah, has our opinion changed on this or do we have any additional thoughts or whatever?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I don't think our opinion is going to change, but we might go. We missed this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're not. We need something we've done that. We've gone back and say we missed this. Hey, this is our first ever cold.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

In the conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Open instead of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, look at that. All right, Michael, take it. Take take us into the podcast. This is a great cold open. I like it. We.

Host: Michael:

Ohh wait. No no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Just keep it in all. Edit it a bit, you know, but make it. I like the cold open.

Host: Michael:

Hmm, interesting I don't. Know how I feel about it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You threw him. He's a planner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I know, I know, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan and I just started chatting as we do and jump into the middle of my school and my dear husband our podcast host is this ultimate planner who has wants a predictable set of of rules and.

Speaker

They.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And things to go according to plan. So I'm giving him a minute to kind of recombobulate.

Host: Michael:

I’ll roll with the punches here. But for people who are like, what the fuck is this? What we're going to do is somebody on the Internet has posted a scenario for us asking who's the asshole here. And Dan and Gayle are going to weigh in on their perspective for that. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And I'm Dan Kessler. I'm a clinical psychologist with Veritas Psychology Partners, and I'm here with my with my business partner, Doctor Gayle MacBride. And we're going to, and we're looking forward to whatever Michael's got for us today. Gayle, thanks for coming today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Excited users. Excellent. Thanks for the role reversal, Dan. Wow, I usually am the one that jumps right in there cause that's on the step. We just don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

We're going off script today. We're off script.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Today it's going to be bumpy ride, folks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

There you go, or a smooth ride.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like a good cup of coffee. There you go. Well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So yeah, thanks for joining us today. And Michael, you've got a you've got a conundrum for. Us. Go ahead. I'll have you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Need to explain what the fuck is going on here. We have not given him. An opportunity, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yes, we should. Michael, please explain what the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We should probably not make it that look for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fuck is going on here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A lovely listener.

Host: Michael:

Well, and I'll say usually Dan and Gayle are the ones who don't know what's going on and I'm bringing a question on them. But clearly I'm a little befuddled now though. But that that's alright. So today's question this this is what the ask is, am I the asshole for asking my fiancee to skip this year's Christmas family vacation? Because our baby is due?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I need way more information. Whose family. Yeah. Yeah. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. Any more info? Sometimes they jump in and we. Have like yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Again, we are off script and this is off script. We are not rendering it snap judgment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No. Let's go. Michael, can we hear more about this one? This is interesting.

Host: Michael:

Yeah. And what? I liked about this one is we have updates. We don't always get updates from the original poster. This one we do. So I'll give you initially what she offered, which is she's the female. Her fiance is male. They're both.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Mobile.

Host: Michael:

Late 30s, they're expecting their first baby due December 30th, so you can tell this is not this year. For the past five years I've joined his family in Florida for part of Christmas, but typically return Christmas Day with my family. This year, his family is pressuring us to come despite his additional agreement initial agreement. Day. So he booked a flight December 15 to 28, reasoning that he'll be back with ample time before the due date, with my parents being oversea to a family emergency, I will be home alone at Christmas if he spends this time with his family, which is upsetting to me, especially since pregnancies can be unpredictable. His family has always kept their closeness subtle but noticeable. My fiancee has a strong fear of missing out. Making it hard to discuss every time I bring up wanting him to be here for support, it leads to a tense argument about prioritizing me over his parents. None left wondering if I'm in the wrong, wanting him to stay. Who's the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow. Yeah, I'm. I'm going to jump in really hard on this guy. Like, OK, so those let's celebrate Christmas. This is a really important time of year to spend time with family, baby or no. If spouse is staying behind and isn't cool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

As a former pregnant woman.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are you going somewhere else for that holiday? Your ask should be with your spouse. Yeah, that. That, I mean pregnant or no. And then we can get to the whole discussion of babies. Do what they do and when they want to do it as a person who is pregnant. And due January 2nd and deliver the baby December 11th, this could be a big problem. We did not expect to have a baby at home for Christmas Day. And yet we did. And it was wonderful. Don't get me wrong, but you can't plan these things on December 10th. I had no idea that I was going to have a baby. On December 11th.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. I, you know, before we get to that, I like your dividing this up into like, let's talk about this even if she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Here example.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Not pregnant. Yeah, because the question comes up in this, this, this, this question comes up like, who gets priority? If it's a big holiday, be it Christmas or any other major family holiday. And my spouse can't go do I go anyway if my spouse can't go because they're my family and it's important to me and my family to be together. Where do I choose my spouse now? This goes away if, if, if. If she's like, you know, go see your family. I'm. I'm fine. Very. But if she. But if she's like, I want you here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Of course, of course you go to bars.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Christmas and I can't go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And he's deer in headlights like. Which do I do? I've got. I mean both direction.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And he kept like, which should I go? This is a this is a question that comes up a lot in who's whose family we spend Thanksgiving with. Yours or mine. Do we do we try to split the day up somehow. Who spend the do Christmas Eve with this family and Christmas Day with the other family like this. This is a frequent issue. Like you're you saying Gayle.

Host: Michael:

Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It ohh it it well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is go with this your your spouse takes priority over your family. That's. What do you think?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And you know, one of the things I noticed when I listened back to our episodes, yes, is that sometimes we let a minor character a bit off the hook, and I go back and I listen to it. And I'm like, why didn't we talk about that? So I want to just take a moment and also talk about his family. They're being assholes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh yeah, yeah, totally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I mean, I don't want to let his family off the hook here. They're aware of the pregnancy. They're aware of the complications. They're aware, I'm sure, of her family being out of the country. How dare you ask and even put your son in that position to have to choose. Yeah, not cool. So not cool in that case. Yeah. In that case, you you take it off Google. They're they are assholes in this scenario for sure. Because you should have said, hey, we understand you have a baby coming. And while we're really going to miss you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So before we even. Like answer about whether like they're the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Christmas and I'm hoping we can do a video call, which, by the way, you know, is a reasonable substitute for spending time. And we can we can have a bonus conversation about spending holidays and video calls. Maybe that's the content rough Rd. We don't have that planned yet either, so you know, but they they make a concession early and generously so that this, this spouse doesn't have to make the choice, even if they were pregnant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I. I am deeply troubled by his family invasion. Michael, did they allude? Did Opie allude to conflict between his family and her over the years? I don't remember. Now already, it's like.

Host: Michael:

No, no. Well, obvious conflict between them, just that they she she doesn't. The one thing that she says and she does clarify this later. So I'll explain it. She she says that she doesn't feel quite connected to them. And like there's a clear preference for their son which, you know I think it's also hard like I think that's an interesting conversation. Is like coming into. Family and then being the in laws, you know, how do you support that new person? But then, you know, obviously it's your child as well. So like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. Right. And just as Doctor MacBride put herself in the position of the pregnant Opie here, I'm going to put myself momentarily in the position of the her in laws and imagining myself with a pregnant daughter-in-law.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I know what you're going to say. So I was going to go here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Who lives 1000 miles away and calling up my son and saying, are you asshole kidding me? No, you're not coming out here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh oh, you. Didn't go where I thought you would.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, I would not. I would tell them you stay. You stay home with your wife.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And look at Ant. There's an Ant.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And would it be OK if we join? You rather than ask you?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sure, sure, sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Terribly. What if we came up with would said, would your wife be cool with that hotel? We don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Want but we're we're assuming you don't. No, you're not in my head. You don't have the fact pattern in my head. The fact pattern.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

She has no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

In my head is that I can't go up there. For whatever reason, I can't go up to their place and I'm having and I'm having the holiday.

Host: Michael:

Or whatever I can get the back pattern.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It wouldn't be Christmas. That in my case I'm having a holiday. It's important to me. I can't leave to come up to you. And you say to me. Hey, hey, pops. I'm going to pops and then my pops just for the sake of this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, wouldn't it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

One, I'm. Pops. Hey, pops, I'd love to come down and I'd be like, no, your wife is like, like 10 months. Pregnant. No, you are not coming down here and leaving her alone. Don't be a dick like that. Would that so that like, I totally agree with you. The in laws, the in laws here are.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That fact pattern? That's the conversation for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Or being assholes by even even allowing not, and not just asking him, allowing him like if he called and said I really.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There, there. I think the distinction that you're making, OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Want to come down? For Christmas, I would be like, no, you can't come down here. You stay with your wife. Are you kidding me?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right, right. So there's there's multiple sort of opportunities here where they jumped on the asshole bus 1 isn't asking 2, is not insisting 3 in my book would be figuring out a way to perhaps visit and cover that holiday to be with family. I understand that I'm not. I know that missing out on that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To get the OP spouse for the and the sadness that that can kind of bring and we can have a whole missing out conversation and. And that, but I understand that and they know that about him and they could help close that gap by just even offering to be in town they. Don't have that house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, super not OK. Super. Not OK, Sir.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So I just I didn't want to leave these minor characters out of our analysis and unsuccessfully. We do find this in our offices where someone comes in and they feel maybe stuck between their spouse and their family, or they are the spouse who's who's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I appreciate that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A husband or wife is is feeling drawn to their original family and neglecting the traditions that that couples and families you know of our making, choose and and I am troubled at the number of times that these in law families make this demand. But Christmas is so special and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I always host Christmas. Get over yourself. Where in the world did you think that this was written? And zone forever. And the moment you have kids, this is going to be something that then flocks and creating some flexibility around these holiday traditions is important. That's why we make traditions and traditions modify and change over time. We need to hold this not with absolute rigid reverence but with some flexibility. And generosity for our family members.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I mean what you're talking about here is a family has a culture, and that culture has been there for. Many years when you marry, you blend together or mix together or create entirely new culture in your new family, and that it may not be consistent with the old culture culture you had with your family of origin. And sometimes that creates tension. Yeah, the, the question that comes up a lot in our offices is who wins that argument? And this comes up in. In almost in many, many relationship issues where neither one is necessarily wrong, saying you know we're we always, we're always talking to our clients about differences rather than right and wrong. There's. Difference in the way you're doing this than the way I want it. You are not wrong. I am not wrong that we work this difference out without getting hurt, angry, etcetera. I'm really troubled by this. By husband making the choice to follow his family rather than his family of origin rather than his family. And I want to differentiate like they're his family of origin and they are his family. But now his immediate family is his wife. And yet and soon to be child, and that's his family. I think they get dibs.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They absolutely get that because that is where you are most needed. Now we can change the fact pattern a little bit. Let's say you know husband, right husband, one of husband's parents is terminally ill and this is their last Christmas. In that case, maybe there are some. There's some discussions to have with them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pregnant wife says I can't travel. I know that this is really special. You go and then we're back to square 0. Because this is not that where she isn't, you know, holding me up in many ways. She's graciously saying go now again as a pregnant person, I wouldn't want to do that toward the end of my, because sometimes we don't have control over those things, and then we would want someone in place to support her for the end of the pregnancy. Now maybe that brings us to the to the second part of this, which is in a very pregnant. Person who is about to deliver a baby sounds like for the first time and as a pregnant person who has delivered for the first time, I found myself having really big feelings about who I wanted around me. And the support I needed to do something that while we have the somewhat luxury and privilege in this country of having a relatively low mortality rate of baby and mother, it's still really scary thing. That's not without risk. And I think all pregnant people, especially pregnant people who might. Have a pitch of anxiety. Start to realize that as you get closer. To that moment, and. You what you know or you think things are going to be fine. You still want someone at the call at the ready if not holding your hands.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. And we're not. We're not talking about here like, like she's due on January 20th. She's due December 30th. And I'm. I'm. I'm going to do one of my favorite things right now. I'm going to send our intrepid hose down the rabbit hole. I have to wonder, what's the percentage of babies that would be if the woman is due on December 30th and her husband is due to return.

Speaker

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Not leadership.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

On December. 28 What's the probability that that baby is going to be born while he's away? And I know that, like Michael is going. To dive in and. Try to do this. He's already he's already. You can see it. He's already.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

He's on it. On.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Looking at the stats here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

When I was pregnant, they said something like 95% likelihood you will not deliver on your due date. Now that doesn't say what the window is but like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right. I'm curious though, what's the probability?

Speaker 2

Due date is.

Speaker

What the spot on?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

A dartboard and what a super graded. Dart. Yeah, we're not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

So we we're. So we're already even before because we pulled out at at your at your behest, we pulled out the she's pregnant, even from the and factored it before we even make agree that she's pregnant. His parents are assholes. He's. I'm going to say that he's an asshole, even for, like, ditching her when she does, when she can't go.

Speaker

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

She wants him to stay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. For whatever reason, she can't go. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

For whatever reason, she wants to say she can't go. I know we can argue about whether or not like, what's a good enough reason to say don't go but, but let's let's go ahead and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now let's drop in the fact she's pregnant. Yeah, and he's a waste for any reason, whether it be family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But there is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Holiday or quite frankly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right. His parents are absolute raging assholes for make for asking go. He's an asshole for agreeing to go like he's clear. Like you don't abandon your wife who's about to have your baby. No, no, no. I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. You have to. Think he's going to be back? In time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, the. For a chunk of days the threshold. We're abandoning her in this situation. Is something like if he does like he has to give a kidney to save his. Parents life like it's like that's got to be like, he's the only available kidney donor and the kidney donation has to take place on December 25th. He's gotta fly down to wherever the hell it is and give up his kidney like that and other. Otherwise some family member will. Die. Yeah, that's a threshold that I'm willing to say. Yes, you can leave. You can. Leave over Christmas. Sort of actually having to give up a kidney to save someone's life. I'm smoking by the reason you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

My goal. And I want to be. Can go OK, but I want take Christmas out of your previous statement. I don't care that he misses Christmas. You know, it's it really is just around. That due date and I and I really think that especially the three weeks around that due date you you don't go anywhere three weeks before the week after you're you're in town for that month because she's going to go down now. I think there there's sometimes couples have gotten intough spaces around. Work trips if my spouse doesn't go, they could get fired now. I think. Then the spouse needs to come home and say I advocated. I told them you were pregnant. I told them that we could deliver at any moment. And they basically said I don't care. And by the way, I will tender my resignation as soon as I'm able to find another job out on that company. That manager is an apple in that scenario, but I haven't heard of people saying like he, he or she was really stuck and they had to go or otherwise they would probably lose their.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Right, right.

Speaker

It.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

That's problematic when you need health insurance and. To pay for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But what I'm. What I'm fascinated by here is that we're both grasping for situations where husband is OK, doing what he's doing and situations we come. We come up with our absolutely compulsory. Like if you don't do this, something terrible happened, yours, you loses this job and they lose your health insurance. Mine and family member dies because he's not giving a kidney.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Told them. Yeah, look at the show. Indefensible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Either way, we're setting a bar. Here. Yeah, that is. Hot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You need to like run with a pole. To get over.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And he's leaving. I mean, he's not. He's going because his parents said we really want you there for Christmas. Like, that's that. That is so, where so far away from giving up a kidney or or losing your livelihood that it's not even close. He's an asshole. Boom. Done. Is she an? Is she an asshole? Forget what the question is. Am I the asshole for getting upset with him? Is that that? What OP.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, yeah. Asked. It was essentially like is she asking? Too much. No, no, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again, she shouldn't have to ask.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Do we have that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like, why is there even an ask here? There is no ask. There is no reasonable rational ask for like. Why would he? Why would he have to ask the answer you know of?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, right. And so it's not us exactly right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Course I'm not going.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now, now we often talk about how we communicate in couples, and if her response then was you.

Speaker

asshole kidding me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And then she ices them out for three days. I have a problem, but not with the ask. The response could be problematic. We have noted in at least an episode that I listened to, but it was the car. The whole night at the car crash. Episode and how was that information communicated? Like we have to remember that we don't. We didn't hear her response and so it's he upset because she responded really poorly and didn't communicate in a kind way and in a in a firm way to express those boundaries that she that she absolutely lose her. It or you know it. It wasn't just a really simple like, I'm very disappointed, you know, this shouldn't have been an ask that I needed to make. I really just. I need you home and you know, how did that go? I think I think that would be interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Fair.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It doesn't, but it doesn't. It wouldn't make her an asshole. I would say she sucks by the response. If that message fax pattern were true.